When will men and women dress and act the same?

CplFerro · 28th November 2012, 03:57 PM

Instead of doing well at dressing and acting like they're members of a noticeably different species? I mean this in light of the ongoing question of how much the intrinsic psychologies of men and women resemble each other, as opposed to being divorced by culture. Men tend to act and dress differently than women and vice versa. Will this ever change, or will "culturally-imprinted" differences persist forever? Will feminism ever win in its stated goal of equality, leading to popular androgyny? Tell me what you think (and keep the stand-ups coming).

Cpl Ferro

Hokulele · 28th November 2012, 04:07 PM

Since when did equal mean identical?

Ziggurat · 28th November 2012, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

Instead of doing well at dressing and acting like they're members of a noticeably different species? I mean this in light of the ongoing question of how much the intrinsic psychologies of men and women resemble each other, as opposed to being divorced by culture. Men tend to act and dress differently than women and vice versa. Will this ever change, or will "culturally-imprinted" differences persist forever? Will feminism ever win in its stated goal of equality, leading to popular androgyny? Tell me what you think (and keep the stand-ups coming).

Cpl Ferro

I sure as hell hope that day never comes. Androgyny is boring, and equality shouldn't be the same thing as equivalence. You know what you get with androgyny in fashion? You get a living Hell:
http://www.lileks.com/institute/70s/sears1973/7.html
http://www.lileks.com/institute/70s/sears1973/10.html

Tsukasa Buddha · 28th November 2012, 04:28 PM

It obviously varies by culture, but on a day to day basis in the US I'd say millions of girls wear jeans and hoodies just like the guys (though they are usually tighter, but it seems some guys have embraced that trend, I could do a whole thread on that topic

).

I've never heard of feminism advocating androgyny. I think it is more against enforced social expectations, like requiring females to wear make-up and heels. So the "ideal" world would not be everyone dressed the same, but everyone dressed without arbitrary gender rules.

(Obviously this doesn't take into account that the gender rules are not entirely detached from the person's desires.)

Miss_Kitt · 28th November 2012, 05:37 PM

I will split the OP's question into two parts: When will men and women start dressing the same? And, when will men and women start acting the same?

Well, for a decent-sized chunk of America for a decent-sized chunk of the time, they already do: a t-shirt or sweatshirt, and jeans or athletic pants; comfortable, usually athletic, shoes. This is not to say that a given individual doesn't sometimes dress "according to gender" or that some people don't avoid this casual, comfortable unisex style; but especially in the under-50 crowd, there is much less emphasis on the kinds of fashion that are in essense gender uniforms. Also, for many businesses, the uniforms for the men and women are nearly identical (except for being cut to fit the different distribution of weight). Add in the creeping obesity of American culture, and there is even less wardrobe difference.

One immediate response to that part of the OP's post is, however, What are you asking? How does feminist request for equality translate to androgyny? Men who are paid alike for doing the same job don't all dress alike; people who receive the same access to promotions, or are given loans with the same qualifications, don't have any reason to dress the same or similarly. I think there's a misunderstanding of 'what feminists are after' here.

On to part two: When will men and women act alike? NEVER. There are specific differences in biology and in psychology between the sexes. Experiments with pooled, non-parental childcare; with 'gender neutral' toys and activities, etc don't result in strikingly different trends in how males and females act. As in any inherent difference, we are talking trends and specific individuals may be outliers; but the overall division is clear. (There are many, many books on this topic, and more studies being done all the time.) The impact of sex hormones on a developing child are large, significant, and lasting. Also, socialization is never going to be identical for boys and girls--even if that were somehow desirable it would not be attainable. The caregivers are going to have their own context of male/female that will influence them, however much they'd like to "treat everyone the same."

Again, one is moved to ask: How did "equal" become translated to "the same"? Let me use an analogy: In a sporting event like an Olympic race, the venue has been laid out in such a way, the starts are staggered in such a way, the allowable drugs and supplements have been policed in such a way, as to try to make the opportunity for each athlete to win the race EQUAL. This does not, by any conceivable rationalization, mean that we should expect everyone to finish in the same time! (Bonus sidebar: Name the sports where men and women compete against each other as equals. Hint: It's a summer games event.)

Equality has to do with fairness, with opportunity, and with not limiting the return a person can get on their efforts. It may, in some contexts, even mean 'staggering the start' in recognition that the inside lane is shorter from start to finish than the outside lane. That's why programs like pre-K 'headstart' for lower income kids is a good idea; it's the most effective way to make sure that children born into a metaphorical outside lane still have a good chance to finish at the top if they run the fastest race.

But equality of opportunity, fairhanded dealing, honest judging, and reasonable payment for work done does NOT mean that everyone will be somehow the SAME -- in their esthetics, their behavior, or even their income. People with drive, with initiative, and with self-promotion skills and inclination (one area where women tend to fall short) will tend to make more in a congruent position, because they've achieved more and made sure the boss knows about it.

Just my thoughts, Miss_Kitt

ETA The equestrian events! Dressage, jumping, driving, and 'three day' events all have men and women (and, for that matter, stallions, mares, and geldings) competing against each other. A team event does not have any limitations or exclusions on what the gender of the human athletes need be, either: A team could be all female, or male, or some mix.

WildCat · 28th November 2012, 06:06 PM

Never.

GregInAustin · 28th November 2012, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Never.

^^^ This.

And that's a good thing.

Lowpro · 28th November 2012, 06:31 PM

Why bring women down to our level?

Tsukasa Buddha · 28th November 2012, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Never.

Why, just today I was pondering how women could stand eating with their feet and skipping everywhere they went.

Piscivore · 28th November 2012, 06:45 PM

My daughter wears jeans and carries a heavy toolbag to work every single day; my son wears a kilt.

And what Hokulele said.

Redtail · 28th November 2012, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

Since when did equal mean identical?

^This.

Halfcentaur · 28th November 2012, 06:55 PM

Should we all wear dresses? Or shall women all wear tuxedos. Because making us all gender neutral would suck and we'd look like Romulans or something. Or J'naii *shudders*

TragicMonkey · 28th November 2012, 07:05 PM

Perhaps one day we won't tie behavior and appearance to sex. Sally wears a dress because she bloody feels like it, not because she's a woman and it's a woman thing to wear. Billy wears a dress because he bloody feels like it, and who gives a damn? It's clothing. Big freaking deal.

I'm the same sex whether I'm wearing "male" clothes, "female" clothes, or nothing at all. I can't think why we imbue inanimate objects with attributes only possessed by humans. And transient ones, at that. What one century sees one way another sees completely opposite. In the past, men wore skirts and robes. Heck, our precious Founding Fathers not only had pony-tailed hair, but they wore wigs on top! Not to mention the silk stockings and high heels. Before them, it was men in hose. Before that, robes and smocks, and before that skirts again.

StankApe · 28th November 2012, 07:08 PM

Hmmmmmphhhhh.........

If my son wore a dress I'd sit him down in front of the pitcher box and make him watch Walker,Texas Ranger until he grew a pair!!!!!!!

Ranb · 28th November 2012, 07:17 PM

Change will always happen. I grieve for the day when both sexes and all cultures/ethnicities behave the same.

Ranb

Piscivore · 28th November 2012, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by StankApe

Hmmmmmphhhhh.........

If my son wore a dress I'd sit him down in front of the pitcher box and make him watch Walker,Texas Ranger until he grew a pair!!!!!!!

How about John Wayne movies?

StankApe · 28th November 2012, 07:22 PM

John Wayne? son, have you not heard of Chuck Norris?

jj · 28th November 2012, 07:24 PM

"notably different species"

What?

CaptBang · 28th November 2012, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

Instead of doing well at dressing and acting like they're members of a noticeably different species? I mean this in light of the ongoing question of how much the intrinsic psychologies of men and women resemble each other, as opposed to being divorced by culture. Men tend to act and dress differently than women and vice versa. Will this ever change, or will "culturally-imprinted" differences persist forever? Will feminism ever win in its stated goal of equality, leading to popular androgyny? Tell me what you think (and keep the stand-ups coming).

Cpl Ferro

The word equality means equal under law, not look alike.

Jorghnassen · 29th November 2012, 05:20 AM

Well, I do love wearing 36DD bras but my pecs don't quite fill them properly. I also love wearing women's panties but they don't quite accommodate my genitals so they wear out pretty fast. And while I do have gorgeous eyelashes that would be perfect for mascara, my facial hair grows way too fast to make other makeup "work". Ditto for my hairy legs and pantyhose (and I'd need a dozen Gillette Venus razors just to shave one leg below the knee). And when I use the ladies room in public places, I get called a pervert, a freak or a sex offender (and they call security on me). And it's really hard to find a good pair of high heels in my size.

All kidding aside, there's too many "forces" at work to make androgyny the one-size-fits-all way of life.

Polaris · 29th November 2012, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by Lowpro

Why bring women down to our level?

Why put women on a pedestal?

sarge · 29th November 2012, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by StankApe

John Wayne? son, have you not heard of Chuck Norris?

Chuck Norris is a wussy. Chuck Norris wears Jack Bauer pajamas.

Women may wear any style of clothing they wish, they will still attract the attention of men. I have no trouble identifying a woman in "man clothes", and am usually pleased by the sight.

angrysoba · 29th November 2012, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by StankApe

Hmmmmmphhhhh.........

If my son wore a dress I'd sit him down in front of the pitcher box and make him watch Walker,Texas Ranger until he grew a pair!!!!!!!

"He sure is handsome, daddy!"

Joe Random · 29th November 2012, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by Polaris

Why put women on a pedestal?

Easier to see up the skirt that way.

commandlinegamer · 29th November 2012, 08:04 AM

How much of gender is determined by what we wear? Certain clothing styles, fabrics, colours even, are perhaps seen as more suitable for one sex than the other. But that varies from culture to culture and time to time.

All other things being equal (i.e. no-one were offended by a particular mode of dress), if everyone wore whatever they wanted, would it matter?

Another thing to consider, if all clothing were unisex, would transvestites be confused?

Skeptic Ginger · 29th November 2012, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

Instead of doing well at dressing and acting like they're members of a noticeably different species? I mean this in light of the ongoing question of how much the intrinsic psychologies of men and women resemble each other, as opposed to being divorced by culture. Men tend to act and dress differently than women and vice versa. Will this ever change, or will "culturally-imprinted" differences persist forever? Will feminism ever win in its stated goal of equality, leading to popular androgyny? Tell me what you think (and keep the stand-ups coming).

Cpl Ferro

So many false assumptions, so little time.

Ryokan · 29th November 2012, 08:41 AM

Most women I know dress similarly to most men I know. Only times they really dress differently is when they're going out or something like that.

Originally Posted by StankApe

Hmmmmmphhhhh.........

If my son wore a dress I'd sit him down in front of the pitcher box and make him watch Walker,Texas Ranger until he grew a pair!!!!!!!

I was nearly in agreement with you. Maybe if you had used one more exclamation point?

It's a bit strange, though.

Women wearing traditional male clothes, like tuxedos, suits, etc: Sexy!

Men wearing traditional female clothes, like a dress: Sick weirdo who needs to "grow a pair".

Why is this?

CORed · 29th November 2012, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by Miss_Kitt

I will split the OP's question into two parts: When will men and women start dressing the same? And, when will men and women start acting the same?

Well, for a decent-sized chunk of America for a decent-sized chunk of the time, they already do: a t-shirt or sweatshirt, and jeans or athletic pants; comfortable, usually athletic, shoes. This is not to say that a given individual doesn't sometimes dress "according to gender" or that some people don't avoid this casual, comfortable unisex style; but especially in the under-50 crowd, there is much less emphasis on the kinds of fashion that are in essense gender uniforms. Also, for many businesses, the uniforms for the men and women are nearly identical (except for being cut to fit the different distribution of weight). Add in the creeping obesity of American culture, and there is even less wardrobe difference.

One immediate response to that part of the OP's post is, however, What are you asking? How does feminist request for equality translate to androgyny? Men who are paid alike for doing the same job don't all dress alike; people who receive the same access to promotions, or are given loans with the same qualifications, don't have any reason to dress the same or similarly. I think there's a misunderstanding of 'what feminists are after' here.

On to part two: When will men and women act alike? NEVER. There are specific differences in biology and in psychology between the sexes. Experiments with pooled, non-parental childcare; with 'gender neutral' toys and activities, etc don't result in strikingly different trends in how males and females act. As in any inherent difference, we are talking trends and specific individuals may be outliers; but the overall division is clear. (There are many, many books on this topic, and more studies being done all the time.) The impact of sex hormones on a developing child are large, significant, and lasting. Also, socialization is never going to be identical for boys and girls--even if that were somehow desirable it would not be attainable. The caregivers are going to have their own context of male/female that will influence them, however much they'd like to "treat everyone the same."

Again, one is moved to ask: How did "equal" become translated to "the same"? Let me use an analogy: In a sporting event like an Olympic race, the venue has been laid out in such a way, the starts are staggered in such a way, the allowable drugs and supplements have been policed in such a way, as to try to make the opportunity for each athlete to win the race EQUAL. This does not, by any conceivable rationalization, mean that we should expect everyone to finish in the same time! (Bonus sidebar: Name the sports where men and women compete against each other as equals. Hint: It's a summer games event.)

Equality has to do with fairness, with opportunity, and with not limiting the return a person can get on their efforts. It may, in some contexts, even mean 'staggering the start' in recognition that the inside lane is shorter from start to finish than the outside lane. That's why programs like pre-K 'headstart' for lower income kids is a good idea; it's the most effective way to make sure that children born into a metaphorical outside lane still have a good chance to finish at the top if they run the fastest race.

But equality of opportunity, fairhanded dealing, honest judging, and reasonable payment for work done does NOT mean that everyone will be somehow the SAME -- in their esthetics, their behavior, or even their income. People with drive, with initiative, and with self-promotion skills and inclination (one area where women tend to fall short) will tend to make more in a congruent position, because they've achieved more and made sure the boss knows about it.

Just my thoughts, Miss_Kitt

ETA The equestrian events! Dressage, jumping, driving, and 'three day' events all have men and women (and, for that matter, stallions, mares, and geldings) competing against each other. A team event does not have any limitations or exclusions on what the gender of the human athletes need be, either: A team could be all female, or male, or some mix.

While it is perfectly acceptable in most circles (in the US anyway) for women to wear traditionally male clothing, the reverse is not really the case. If I (a male) were to walk around in a black satin dress, I think it would draw some unfavorable comments.

Almo · 29th November 2012, 09:20 AM

Will never act completely the same. We're biologically different.

CplFerro · 29th November 2012, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Miss_Kitt

I will split the OP's question into two parts: When will men and women start dressing the same? And, when will men and women start acting the same?

Well, for a decent-sized chunk of America for a decent-sized chunk of the time, they already do: a t-shirt or sweatshirt, and jeans or athletic pants; comfortable, usually athletic, shoes. This is not to say that a given individual doesn't sometimes dress "according to gender" or that some people don't avoid this casual, comfortable unisex style; but especially in the under-50 crowd, there is much less emphasis on the kinds of fashion that are in essense gender uniforms. Also, for many businesses, the uniforms for the men and women are nearly identical (except for being cut to fit the different distribution of weight). Add in the creeping obesity of American culture, and there is even less wardrobe difference.

One immediate response to that part of the OP's post is, however, What are you asking? How does feminist request for equality translate to androgyny? Men who are paid alike for doing the same job don't all dress alike; people who receive the same access to promotions, or are given loans with the same qualifications, don't have any reason to dress the same or similarly. I think there's a misunderstanding of 'what feminists are after' here.

On to part two: When will men and women act alike? NEVER. There are specific differences in biology and in psychology between the sexes. Experiments with pooled, non-parental childcare; with 'gender neutral' toys and activities, etc don't result in strikingly different trends in how males and females act. As in any inherent difference, we are talking trends and specific individuals may be outliers; but the overall division is clear. (There are many, many books on this topic, and more studies being done all the time.) The impact of sex hormones on a developing child are large, significant, and lasting. Also, socialization is never going to be identical for boys and girls--even if that were somehow desirable it would not be attainable. The caregivers are going to have their own context of male/female that will influence them, however much they'd like to "treat everyone the same."

Again, one is moved to ask: How did "equal" become translated to "the same"? Let me use an analogy: In a sporting event like an Olympic race, the venue has been laid out in such a way, the starts are staggered in such a way, the allowable drugs and supplements have been policed in such a way, as to try to make the opportunity for each athlete to win the race EQUAL. This does not, by any conceivable rationalization, mean that we should expect everyone to finish in the same time! (Bonus sidebar: Name the sports where men and women compete against each other as equals. Hint: It's a summer games event.)

Equality has to do with fairness, with opportunity, and with not limiting the return a person can get on their efforts. It may, in some contexts, even mean 'staggering the start' in recognition that the inside lane is shorter from start to finish than the outside lane. That's why programs like pre-K 'headstart' for lower income kids is a good idea; it's the most effective way to make sure that children born into a metaphorical outside lane still have a good chance to finish at the top if they run the fastest race.

But equality of opportunity, fairhanded dealing, honest judging, and reasonable payment for work done does NOT mean that everyone will be somehow the SAME -- in their esthetics, their behavior, or even their income. People with drive, with initiative, and with self-promotion skills and inclination (one area where women tend to fall short) will tend to make more in a congruent position, because they've achieved more and made sure the boss knows about it.

Just my thoughts, Miss_Kitt

ETA The equestrian events! Dressage, jumping, driving, and 'three day' events all have men and women (and, for that matter, stallions, mares, and geldings) competing against each other. A team event does not have any limitations or exclusions on what the gender of the human athletes need be, either: A team could be all female, or male, or some mix.

Dear Miss_Kitt,

I'm responding to the feminism I have imbibed, which--and the Swedish gender-neutral social experiments are a result of this--assert that men and women have no non-cultural mental differences.

(There is another part of feminism that expresses misandry to such a degree they appear to be asserting that there is a "manichean essentialism" between the sexes.)

If men and women are, at birth, psychologically identical, and if stereotypical male and female behavioural and sartorial differences are wholly a result of cultural conditioning, then why wouldn't we expect, once those cultural norms have been overthrown, to see the sexes acting and dressing the same?

Can you recommend the best book, study, or website that nails sex-psychology differences to the wall?

Cpl Ferro

CplFerro · 29th November 2012, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Almo

Will never act completely the same. We're biologically different.

Dear Almo,

Do you have any books, studies, or websites to back that up? I remember a recent public television show featuring neuroscientists who claim there is no meaningful difference between male and female brains. If what you're saying is true, it's hardly been proven definitively in the public sphere.

Cpl Ferro

Soapy Sam · 29th November 2012, 01:10 PM

Brains are subject to natural and sexual selection.

If your neuroscientists are right, Darwin is wrong, at least on sexual selection in humans.

I suspect what they actually said is that there is very little consistent major structural difference discernable by current technology - and that what there is, is not strictly divided along gender grounds.
Androgens can and do "sexualise" behaviour- and behaviour involves brains.

What may (and likely is) true is that the systematic differences between male and female brains are actually swamped by variation between individuals of either sex, but that doesn't mean there is no consistent gender difference.

Bear in mind too that even two structurally identical brains will develop differently if exposed to different chemical concentrations. While not apparent on a CAT scanner, the output of the two might be very distinct.

Madalch · 29th November 2012, 01:14 PM

Male and female will dress identically when we are all bisexual.

Piscivore · 29th November 2012, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by StankApe

John Wayne? son, have you not heard of Chuck Norris?

I was setting up a "Repo Man" joke. Man do I feel old now.

Piscivore · 29th November 2012, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by CORed

While it is perfectly acceptable in most circles (in the US anyway) for women to wear traditionally male clothing, the reverse is not really the case. If I (a male) were to walk around in a black satin dress, I think it would draw some unfavorable comments.

Depends on how nice your legs are, I suppose.

dudalb · 29th November 2012, 01:40 PM

About the same time Lyndon LaRouch becomes President...

StankApe · 29th November 2012, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by sarge

Chuck Norris is a wussy. Chuck Norris wears Jack Bauer pajamas.

.

Chuck Norris once had a drill sergeant tell him to drop and give him 20, that's how we got the moon

schplurg · 29th November 2012, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

Dear Almo,

Do you have any books, studies, or websites to back that up? I remember a recent public television show featuring neuroscientists who claim there is no meaningful difference between male and female brains. If what you're saying is true, it's hardly been proven definitively in the public sphere.

Cpl Ferro

You saw a show once? Ha ha.

He said "biologically different". Some people have a penis, others a vagina. There are many books with pictures that prove this.

If politically correctness gets that far I don't wanna be around.

StankApe · 29th November 2012, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Piscivore

I was setting up a "Repo Man" joke. Man do I feel old now.

Yer not old! I just forgot the line! (I assume you are referring to the great Alex Cox film starring Emilio Estevez and the great Harry Dean Stanton)

Love it! just haven't seen it in years.

gabeygoat · 29th November 2012, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by StankApe

Hmmmmmphhhhh.........

If my son wore a dress I'd sit him down in front of the pitcher box and make him watch Walker,Texas Ranger until he grew a pair!!!!!!!

Why make him wait? You can buy a beautiful pair of breasts for him at the local plastic surgeon.

28th November 2012, 03:57 PM	#1
CplFerro Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,383	When will men and women dress and act the same? Instead of doing well at dressing and acting like they're members of a noticeably different species? I mean this in light of the ongoing question of how much the intrinsic psychologies of men and women resemble each other, as opposed to being divorced by culture. Men tend to act and dress differently than women and vice versa. Will this ever change, or will "culturally-imprinted" differences persist forever? Will feminism ever win in its stated goal of equality, leading to popular androgyny? Tell me what you think (and keep the stand-ups coming). Cpl Ferro

28th November 2012, 04:07 PM	#2
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,267	Since when did equal mean identical?
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey

28th November 2012, 04:23 PM	#3
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,189	Originally Posted by CplFerro Instead of doing well at dressing and acting like they're members of a noticeably different species? I mean this in light of the ongoing question of how much the intrinsic psychologies of men and women resemble each other, as opposed to being divorced by culture. Men tend to act and dress differently than women and vice versa. Will this ever change, or will "culturally-imprinted" differences persist forever? Will feminism ever win in its stated goal of equality, leading to popular androgyny? Tell me what you think (and keep the stand-ups coming). Cpl Ferro I sure as hell hope that day never comes. Androgyny is boring, and equality shouldn't be the same thing as equivalence. You know what you get with androgyny in fashion? You get a living Hell: http://www.lileks.com/institute/70s/sears1973/7.html http://www.lileks.com/institute/70s/sears1973/10.html
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

28th November 2012, 04:28 PM	#4
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,901	It obviously varies by culture, but on a day to day basis in the US I'd say millions of girls wear jeans and hoodies just like the guys (though they are usually tighter, but it seems some guys have embraced that trend, I could do a whole thread on that topic ). I've never heard of feminism advocating androgyny. I think it is more against enforced social expectations, like requiring females to wear make-up and heels. So the "ideal" world would not be everyone dressed the same, but everyone dressed without arbitrary gender rules. (Obviously this doesn't take into account that the gender rules are not entirely detached from the person's desires.)
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn Last edited by Tsukasa Buddha; 28th November 2012 at 04:29 PM.

28th November 2012, 05:37 PM	#5
Miss_Kitt Zombie Horse of Homeopathy Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Lesser Seattle Posts: 3,623	I will split the OP's question into two parts: When will men and women start dressing the same? And, when will men and women start acting the same? Well, for a decent-sized chunk of America for a decent-sized chunk of the time, they already do: a t-shirt or sweatshirt, and jeans or athletic pants; comfortable, usually athletic, shoes. This is not to say that a given individual doesn't sometimes dress "according to gender" or that some people don't avoid this casual, comfortable unisex style; but especially in the under-50 crowd, there is much less emphasis on the kinds of fashion that are in essense gender uniforms. Also, for many businesses, the uniforms for the men and women are nearly identical (except for being cut to fit the different distribution of weight). Add in the creeping obesity of American culture, and there is even less wardrobe difference. One immediate response to that part of the OP's post is, however, What are you asking? How does feminist request for equality translate to androgyny? Men who are paid alike for doing the same job don't all dress alike; people who receive the same access to promotions, or are given loans with the same qualifications, don't have any reason to dress the same or similarly. I think there's a misunderstanding of 'what feminists are after' here. On to part two: When will men and women act alike? NEVER. There are specific differences in biology and in psychology between the sexes. Experiments with pooled, non-parental childcare; with 'gender neutral' toys and activities, etc don't result in strikingly different trends in how males and females act. As in any inherent difference, we are talking trends and specific individuals may be outliers; but the overall division is clear. (There are many, many books on this topic, and more studies being done all the time.) The impact of sex hormones on a developing child are large, significant, and lasting. Also, socialization is never going to be identical for boys and girls--even if that were somehow desirable it would not be attainable. The caregivers are going to have their own context of male/female that will influence them, however much they'd like to "treat everyone the same." Again, one is moved to ask: How did "equal" become translated to "the same"? Let me use an analogy: In a sporting event like an Olympic race, the venue has been laid out in such a way, the starts are staggered in such a way, the allowable drugs and supplements have been policed in such a way, as to try to make the opportunity for each athlete to win the race EQUAL. This does not, by any conceivable rationalization, mean that we should expect everyone to finish in the same time! (Bonus sidebar: Name the sports where men and women compete against each other as equals. Hint: It's a summer games event.) Equality has to do with fairness, with opportunity, and with not limiting the return a person can get on their efforts. It may, in some contexts, even mean 'staggering the start' in recognition that the inside lane is shorter from start to finish than the outside lane. That's why programs like pre-K 'headstart' for lower income kids is a good idea; it's the most effective way to make sure that children born into a metaphorical outside lane still have a good chance to finish at the top if they run the fastest race. But equality of opportunity, fairhanded dealing, honest judging, and reasonable payment for work done does NOT mean that everyone will be somehow the SAME -- in their esthetics, their behavior, or even their income. People with drive, with initiative, and with self-promotion skills and inclination (one area where women tend to fall short) will tend to make more in a congruent position, because they've achieved more and made sure the boss knows about it. Just my thoughts, Miss_Kitt ETA The equestrian events! Dressage, jumping, driving, and 'three day' events all have men and women (and, for that matter, stallions, mares, and geldings) competing against each other. A team event does not have any limitations or exclusions on what the gender of the human athletes need be, either: A team could be all female, or male, or some mix.
	__________________ It's much better to live an honest life than a delusional one -- desertgal Magic thinking is a lead personal floatation device. It looks really reassuring, but it will drag you down--whatthebutlersaw Last edited by Miss_Kitt; 28th November 2012 at 05:41 PM. Reason: forgot to include answer to bonus question

28th November 2012, 06:06 PM	#6
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,000	Never.

28th November 2012, 06:29 PM	#7
GregInAustin Scholar Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 91	Originally Posted by WildCat Never. ^^^ This. And that's a good thing.
GregInAustin Scholar Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 91

28th November 2012, 06:31 PM	#8
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,520	Why bring women down to our level?
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

28th November 2012, 06:39 PM	#9
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,901	Originally Posted by WildCat Never. Why, just today I was pondering how women could stand eating with their feet and skipping everywhere they went.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

28th November 2012, 06:45 PM	#10
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,457	My daughter wears jeans and carries a heavy toolbag to work every single day; my son wears a kilt. And what Hokulele said.
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

28th November 2012, 06:46 PM	#11
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	Originally Posted by Hokulele Since when did equal mean identical? ^This.
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	__________________ AVENGERS!!!.. Turn off the dark!

28th November 2012, 06:55 PM	#12
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,946	Should we all wear dresses? Or shall women all wear tuxedos. Because making us all gender neutral would suck and we'd look like Romulans or something. Or J'naii shudders
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,946

28th November 2012, 07:05 PM	#13
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,071	Perhaps one day we won't tie behavior and appearance to sex. Sally wears a dress because she bloody feels like it, not because she's a woman and it's a woman thing to wear. Billy wears a dress because he bloody feels like it, and who gives a damn? It's clothing. Big freaking deal. I'm the same sex whether I'm wearing "male" clothes, "female" clothes, or nothing at all. I can't think why we imbue inanimate objects with attributes only possessed by humans. And transient ones, at that. What one century sees one way another sees completely opposite. In the past, men wore skirts and robes. Heck, our precious Founding Fathers not only had pony-tailed hair, but they wore wigs on top! Not to mention the silk stockings and high heels. Before them, it was men in hose. Before that, robes and smocks, and before that skirts again.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

28th November 2012, 07:08 PM	#14
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643	Hmmmmmphhhhh......... If my son wore a dress I'd sit him down in front of the pitcher box and make him watch Walker,Texas Ranger until he grew a pair!!!!!!!
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643

28th November 2012, 07:17 PM	#15
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,101	Change will always happen. I grieve for the day when both sexes and all cultures/ethnicities behave the same. Ranb

28th November 2012, 07:18 PM	#16
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,457	Originally Posted by StankApe Hmmmmmphhhhh......... If my son wore a dress I'd sit him down in front of the pitcher box and make him watch Walker,Texas Ranger until he grew a pair!!!!!!! How about John Wayne movies?
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

28th November 2012, 07:22 PM	#17
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643	John Wayne? son, have you not heard of Chuck Norris?
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643

28th November 2012, 07:24 PM	#18
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,503	"notably different species" What?
	__________________ The Power to Quit

28th November 2012, 07:45 PM	#19
CaptBang Scholar Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: NYC Posts: 117	Originally Posted by CplFerro Instead of doing well at dressing and acting like they're members of a noticeably different species? I mean this in light of the ongoing question of how much the intrinsic psychologies of men and women resemble each other, as opposed to being divorced by culture. Men tend to act and dress differently than women and vice versa. Will this ever change, or will "culturally-imprinted" differences persist forever? Will feminism ever win in its stated goal of equality, leading to popular androgyny? Tell me what you think (and keep the stand-ups coming). Cpl Ferro The word equality means equal under law, not look alike.

29th November 2012, 05:20 AM	#20
Jorghnassen Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The realm of ideas Posts: 3,881	Well, I do love wearing 36DD bras but my pecs don't quite fill them properly. I also love wearing women's panties but they don't quite accommodate my genitals so they wear out pretty fast. And while I do have gorgeous eyelashes that would be perfect for mascara, my facial hair grows way too fast to make other makeup "work". Ditto for my hairy legs and pantyhose (and I'd need a dozen Gillette Venus razors just to shave one leg below the knee). And when I use the ladies room in public places, I get called a pervert, a freak or a sex offender (and they call security on me). And it's really hard to find a good pair of high heels in my size. All kidding aside, there's too many "forces" at work to make androgyny the one-size-fits-all way of life.
	__________________ "Help control the local pet population: teach your dog abstinence." -Stephen Colbert "My dad believed laughter is the best medicine. Which is why several of us died of tuberculosis."- Unknown source, heard from Grey Delisle on Rob Paulsen's podcast

29th November 2012, 06:45 AM	#21
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,168	Originally Posted by Lowpro Why bring women down to our level? Why put women on a pedestal?
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,168	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Roy Moore of Alabama. The world would absolutely benefit by him being run over by any vehicle." - Lowpro

29th November 2012, 06:56 AM	#22
sarge Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 2,335	Originally Posted by StankApe John Wayne? son, have you not heard of Chuck Norris? Chuck Norris is a wussy. Chuck Norris wears Jack Bauer pajamas. Women may wear any style of clothing they wish, they will still attract the attention of men. I have no trouble identifying a woman in "man clothes", and am usually pleased by the sight.
	__________________ I'm a not-so-strict constructionist, fiscally conservative, social liberal. Exactly which party represents me?

29th November 2012, 07:13 AM	#23
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,517	Originally Posted by StankApe Hmmmmmphhhhh......... If my son wore a dress I'd sit him down in front of the pitcher box and make him watch Walker,Texas Ranger until he grew a pair!!!!!!! "He sure is handsome, daddy!"

29th November 2012, 07:45 AM	#24
Joe Random Muse Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 697	Originally Posted by Polaris Why put women on a pedestal? Easier to see up the skirt that way.
Joe Random Muse Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 697

29th November 2012, 08:04 AM	#25
commandlinegamer Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mazes of Menace Posts: 5,892	How much of gender is determined by what we wear? Certain clothing styles, fabrics, colours even, are perhaps seen as more suitable for one sex than the other. But that varies from culture to culture and time to time. All other things being equal (i.e. no-one were offended by a particular mode of dress), if everyone wore whatever they wanted, would it matter? Another thing to consider, if all clothing were unisex, would transvestites be confused?
	__________________ He bade me take any rug in the house.

29th November 2012, 08:32 AM	#26
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,550	Originally Posted by CplFerro Instead of doing well at dressing and acting like they're members of a noticeably different species? I mean this in light of the ongoing question of how much the intrinsic psychologies of men and women resemble each other, as opposed to being divorced by culture. Men tend to act and dress differently than women and vice versa. Will this ever change, or will "culturally-imprinted" differences persist forever? Will feminism ever win in its stated goal of equality, leading to popular androgyny? Tell me what you think (and keep the stand-ups coming). Cpl Ferro So many false assumptions, so little time.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

29th November 2012, 08:41 AM	#27
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,172	Most women I know dress similarly to most men I know. Only times they really dress differently is when they're going out or something like that. Originally Posted by StankApe Hmmmmmphhhhh......... If my son wore a dress I'd sit him down in front of the pitcher box and make him watch Walker,Texas Ranger until he grew a pair!!!!!!! I was nearly in agreement with you. Maybe if you had used one more exclamation point? It's a bit strange, though. Women wearing traditional male clothes, like tuxedos, suits, etc: Sexy! Men wearing traditional female clothes, like a dress: Sick weirdo who needs to "grow a pair". Why is this?

29th November 2012, 09:17 AM	#28
CORed Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 4,289	Originally Posted by Miss_Kitt I will split the OP's question into two parts: When will men and women start dressing the same? And, when will men and women start acting the same? Well, for a decent-sized chunk of America for a decent-sized chunk of the time, they already do: a t-shirt or sweatshirt, and jeans or athletic pants; comfortable, usually athletic, shoes. This is not to say that a given individual doesn't sometimes dress "according to gender" or that some people don't avoid this casual, comfortable unisex style; but especially in the under-50 crowd, there is much less emphasis on the kinds of fashion that are in essense gender uniforms. Also, for many businesses, the uniforms for the men and women are nearly identical (except for being cut to fit the different distribution of weight). Add in the creeping obesity of American culture, and there is even less wardrobe difference. One immediate response to that part of the OP's post is, however, What are you asking? How does feminist request for equality translate to androgyny? Men who are paid alike for doing the same job don't all dress alike; people who receive the same access to promotions, or are given loans with the same qualifications, don't have any reason to dress the same or similarly. I think there's a misunderstanding of 'what feminists are after' here. On to part two: When will men and women act alike? NEVER. There are specific differences in biology and in psychology between the sexes. Experiments with pooled, non-parental childcare; with 'gender neutral' toys and activities, etc don't result in strikingly different trends in how males and females act. As in any inherent difference, we are talking trends and specific individuals may be outliers; but the overall division is clear. (There are many, many books on this topic, and more studies being done all the time.) The impact of sex hormones on a developing child are large, significant, and lasting. Also, socialization is never going to be identical for boys and girls--even if that were somehow desirable it would not be attainable. The caregivers are going to have their own context of male/female that will influence them, however much they'd like to "treat everyone the same." Again, one is moved to ask: How did "equal" become translated to "the same"? Let me use an analogy: In a sporting event like an Olympic race, the venue has been laid out in such a way, the starts are staggered in such a way, the allowable drugs and supplements have been policed in such a way, as to try to make the opportunity for each athlete to win the race EQUAL. This does not, by any conceivable rationalization, mean that we should expect everyone to finish in the same time! (Bonus sidebar: Name the sports where men and women compete against each other as equals. Hint: It's a summer games event.) Equality has to do with fairness, with opportunity, and with not limiting the return a person can get on their efforts. It may, in some contexts, even mean 'staggering the start' in recognition that the inside lane is shorter from start to finish than the outside lane. That's why programs like pre-K 'headstart' for lower income kids is a good idea; it's the most effective way to make sure that children born into a metaphorical outside lane still have a good chance to finish at the top if they run the fastest race. But equality of opportunity, fairhanded dealing, honest judging, and reasonable payment for work done does NOT mean that everyone will be somehow the SAME -- in their esthetics, their behavior, or even their income. People with drive, with initiative, and with self-promotion skills and inclination (one area where women tend to fall short) will tend to make more in a congruent position, because they've achieved more and made sure the boss knows about it. Just my thoughts, Miss_Kitt ETA The equestrian events! Dressage, jumping, driving, and 'three day' events all have men and women (and, for that matter, stallions, mares, and geldings) competing against each other. A team event does not have any limitations or exclusions on what the gender of the human athletes need be, either: A team could be all female, or male, or some mix. While it is perfectly acceptable in most circles (in the US anyway) for women to wear traditionally male clothing, the reverse is not really the case. If I (a male) were to walk around in a black satin dress, I think it would draw some unfavorable comments.
CORed Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 4,289

29th November 2012, 09:20 AM	#29
Almo Masterblazer Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 6,405	Will never act completely the same. We're biologically different.
	__________________ Almo! My Blog "No society ever collapsed because the poor had too much." — LeftySergeant "It may be that there is no body really at rest, to which the places and motions of others may be referred." –Issac Newton in the Principia

29th November 2012, 09:40 AM	#30
CplFerro Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,383	Originally Posted by Miss_Kitt I will split the OP's question into two parts: When will men and women start dressing the same? And, when will men and women start acting the same? Well, for a decent-sized chunk of America for a decent-sized chunk of the time, they already do: a t-shirt or sweatshirt, and jeans or athletic pants; comfortable, usually athletic, shoes. This is not to say that a given individual doesn't sometimes dress "according to gender" or that some people don't avoid this casual, comfortable unisex style; but especially in the under-50 crowd, there is much less emphasis on the kinds of fashion that are in essense gender uniforms. Also, for many businesses, the uniforms for the men and women are nearly identical (except for being cut to fit the different distribution of weight). Add in the creeping obesity of American culture, and there is even less wardrobe difference. One immediate response to that part of the OP's post is, however, What are you asking? How does feminist request for equality translate to androgyny? Men who are paid alike for doing the same job don't all dress alike; people who receive the same access to promotions, or are given loans with the same qualifications, don't have any reason to dress the same or similarly. I think there's a misunderstanding of 'what feminists are after' here. On to part two: When will men and women act alike? NEVER. There are specific differences in biology and in psychology between the sexes. Experiments with pooled, non-parental childcare; with 'gender neutral' toys and activities, etc don't result in strikingly different trends in how males and females act. As in any inherent difference, we are talking trends and specific individuals may be outliers; but the overall division is clear. (There are many, many books on this topic, and more studies being done all the time.) The impact of sex hormones on a developing child are large, significant, and lasting. Also, socialization is never going to be identical for boys and girls--even if that were somehow desirable it would not be attainable. The caregivers are going to have their own context of male/female that will influence them, however much they'd like to "treat everyone the same." Again, one is moved to ask: How did "equal" become translated to "the same"? Let me use an analogy: In a sporting event like an Olympic race, the venue has been laid out in such a way, the starts are staggered in such a way, the allowable drugs and supplements have been policed in such a way, as to try to make the opportunity for each athlete to win the race EQUAL. This does not, by any conceivable rationalization, mean that we should expect everyone to finish in the same time! (Bonus sidebar: Name the sports where men and women compete against each other as equals. Hint: It's a summer games event.) Equality has to do with fairness, with opportunity, and with not limiting the return a person can get on their efforts. It may, in some contexts, even mean 'staggering the start' in recognition that the inside lane is shorter from start to finish than the outside lane. That's why programs like pre-K 'headstart' for lower income kids is a good idea; it's the most effective way to make sure that children born into a metaphorical outside lane still have a good chance to finish at the top if they run the fastest race. But equality of opportunity, fairhanded dealing, honest judging, and reasonable payment for work done does NOT mean that everyone will be somehow the SAME -- in their esthetics, their behavior, or even their income. People with drive, with initiative, and with self-promotion skills and inclination (one area where women tend to fall short) will tend to make more in a congruent position, because they've achieved more and made sure the boss knows about it. Just my thoughts, Miss_Kitt ETA The equestrian events! Dressage, jumping, driving, and 'three day' events all have men and women (and, for that matter, stallions, mares, and geldings) competing against each other. A team event does not have any limitations or exclusions on what the gender of the human athletes need be, either: A team could be all female, or male, or some mix. Dear Miss_Kitt, I'm responding to the feminism I have imbibed, which--and the Swedish gender-neutral social experiments are a result of this--assert that men and women have no non-cultural mental differences. (There is another part of feminism that expresses misandry to such a degree they appear to be asserting that there is a "manichean essentialism" between the sexes.) If men and women are, at birth, psychologically identical, and if stereotypical male and female behavioural and sartorial differences are wholly a result of cultural conditioning, then why wouldn't we expect, once those cultural norms have been overthrown, to see the sexes acting and dressing the same? Can you recommend the best book, study, or website that nails sex-psychology differences to the wall? Cpl Ferro

29th November 2012, 10:02 AM	#31
CplFerro Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,383	Originally Posted by Almo Will never act completely the same. We're biologically different. Dear Almo, Do you have any books, studies, or websites to back that up? I remember a recent public television show featuring neuroscientists who claim there is no meaningful difference between male and female brains. If what you're saying is true, it's hardly been proven definitively in the public sphere. Cpl Ferro

29th November 2012, 01:10 PM	#32
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Brains are subject to natural and sexual selection. If your neuroscientists are right, Darwin is wrong, at least on sexual selection in humans. I suspect what they actually said is that there is very little consistent major structural difference discernable by current technology - and that what there is, is not strictly divided along gender grounds. Androgens can and do "sexualise" behaviour- and behaviour involves brains. What may (and likely is) true is that the systematic differences between male and female brains are actually swamped by variation between individuals of either sex, but that doesn't mean there is no consistent gender difference. Bear in mind too that even two structurally identical brains will develop differently if exposed to different chemical concentrations. While not apparent on a CAT scanner, the output of the two might be very distinct.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

29th November 2012, 01:14 PM	#33
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,701	Male and female will dress identically when we are all bisexual.
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

29th November 2012, 01:22 PM	#34
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,457	Originally Posted by StankApe John Wayne? son, have you not heard of Chuck Norris? I was setting up a "Repo Man" joke. Man do I feel old now.
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

29th November 2012, 01:23 PM	#35
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,457	Originally Posted by CORed While it is perfectly acceptable in most circles (in the US anyway) for women to wear traditionally male clothing, the reverse is not really the case. If I (a male) were to walk around in a black satin dress, I think it would draw some unfavorable comments. Depends on how nice your legs are, I suppose.
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen