JREF Homepage Swift Blog Events Calendar $1 Million Paranormal Challenge The Amaz!ng Meeting Useful Links Support Us
James Randi Educational Foundation JREF Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   JREF Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
Click Here To Donate

Notices


Welcome to the JREF Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.

Reply
Old 3rd December 2012, 06:39 PM   #201
cosmicaug
Muse
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 523
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
That has nothing to do with biological evolution. It may have social impacts, but biologically it's probably meaningless (inter-racial procreation was almost certainly already going on in neighboring groups, and even low-levels of interbreeding can have large impacts over time, certainly large enough to wash out one-time occurrences like rape).
It's not about intermixing of neighboring populations. The idea is that if it takes certain personality characteristics to be tipped into doing this behavior and if said personality characteristics have a genetic component, said will characteristics contribute to reproductive fitness and thus be maintained in the gene pool.
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd December 2012, 06:43 PM   #202
pakeha
Penultimate Amazing
 
pakeha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,295
^
Or even parasols?
It's a sacred symbol in Buddhist and Indian belief systems, after all.
http://www.themystica.org/mythical-f...es/varuna.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtamangala
pakeha is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd December 2012, 06:55 PM   #203
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,397
Originally Posted by luchog View Post

And as for the "mushroom" art, how do you know those are actually depictions of mushrooms, and not, say, Shivalinga?
For many of them I can see a very good argument being made for the art representing hair styles. Many of the things Zeuzzz provided pictures of show clearly human-like, though highly stylized, features from the eyebrows down, so it's very logical to assume that the artists did the same thing from the eyebrows up.

The blue and white picture could also be a stylized representation of a club, a weapon that was used by humans up until my father's generation (my grandfather used them extensively for rabbit hunting).

Then there's the possibility that they represent penises. Ancient cultures were far more concerned with fertility than our own, after all, and the penis is rather extensively involved in that process (sorry if that's borderline, Mods, but I think it's an important and valid point--when dealing with ancient cultures sex is going to come up, and I'm trying to remain as professional as possible here).
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd December 2012, 06:57 PM   #204
StankApe
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,643
and don't discount the penile similarities to the mushroom form.... easily could be male fertility symbols misidentified as shrooms.
StankApe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd December 2012, 06:59 PM   #205
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,397
Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
It's not about intermixing of neighboring populations. The idea is that if it takes certain personality characteristics to be tipped into doing this behavior and if said personality characteristics have a genetic component, said will characteristics contribute to reproductive fitness and thus be maintained in the gene pool.
We're talking evolution, which means we're talking differential survival. If you're just saying that these traits would remain in the population, that's rather indisputable (there's still here), but you're going to run into serious problems weasling out the cause (no offense meant here; everyone always does). But you'll also run into the problem that you're proposing stasis, rather than adaptation. What quarky seemed to be arguing is that the tendency to rape would be a dominant factor in genetic transmission, which I don't think is true--and at the very least no evidence has thus far been presented that it is. Low-frequency mating events over long periods of time would contribute just as much to gene flow as isolated large-scale rape-fests.
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd December 2012, 07:57 PM   #206
quarky
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 20,448
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
We're talking evolution, which means we're talking differential survival. If you're just saying that these traits would remain in the population, that's rather indisputable (there's still here), but you're going to run into serious problems weasling out the cause (no offense meant here; everyone always does). But you'll also run into the problem that you're proposing stasis, rather than adaptation. What quarky seemed to be arguing is that the tendency to rape would be a dominant factor in genetic transmission, which I don't think is true--and at the very least no evidence has thus far been presented that it is. Low-frequency mating events over long periods of time would contribute just as much to gene flow as isolated large-scale rape-fests.
I'm not convinced of that.
various forms of racial pride would frown upon inter-breeding, but rape was an act of aggression, and in a different category.
You'd be hard pressed to find an African American that hasn't been genetically affected by a white male rapist in their background.

Even the recent evidence for Cro-magnon and neanderthal breeding may have mostly been rape scenarios.
If you dig into the history of wars, rape is one of the most common by-products, and, inadvertently, a major source of the mixing of gene pools.

But this is likely a subject for another thread.
quarky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd December 2012, 10:52 PM   #207
cosmicaug
Muse
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 523
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
We're talking evolution, which means we're talking differential survival. If you're just saying that these traits would remain in the population, that's rather indisputable (there's still here), but you're going to run into serious problems weasling out the cause (no offense meant here; everyone always does).
How is what I am talking about not differential survival? Just because everyone is not a rapist doesn't mean the genetics of rape (assuming such a thing exists) have not been maintained and that they have not been maintained by differential survival. I'm mostly done with this, anyway. This subject has been covered by others in books which I have not read so I am not really familiar with it. I'm just telling you "we mixed before" is not an objection which even makes sense in this context.
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
But you'll also run into the problem that you're proposing stasis, rather than adaptation. What quarky seemed to be arguing is that the tendency to rape would be a dominant factor in genetic transmission, which I don't think is true--and at the very least no evidence has thus far been presented that it is. Low-frequency mating events over long periods of time would contribute just as much to gene flow as isolated large-scale rape-fests.
Quarky doesn't seem to be arguing any such thing.

I also think you misunderstand the nature of adaptation and evolution and of what I am proposing. It doesn't have to look like the March of ProgressWP. If rape were indeed an evolutionary influence it would not follow that society would be inexorably becoming more and more rapey as time goes on. In fact, if it were such an influence it would be merely as one more reproductive strategy competing with other reproductive strategies with all of them having a set of costs and a set of gains associated with them which would probably change from the context (so that fitness contributions would actually be ever fluctuating over time and evolutionary pressures would actually be, most likely, maintaining all reproductive strategies simultaneously).
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd December 2012, 11:46 PM   #208
StankApe
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,643
the more I read all this nonsense the more I feel like the IQ of the forum just dropped off a cliff!! these arguments are beyond silly!

and , In My Not So Dadburn Humble Opinion, it looks like a big end around to saying" drugs are great, my terrible lifestyle makes me smarter and more evolved than you are!"

I've heard that line of talk before, it's half baked garbage (or perhaps totally baked?)
StankApe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2012, 01:22 AM   #209
Squeegee Beckenheim
Philosopher
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,687
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Zeuzzz, your photos are why I scoffed at your use of cave art as proof of your idea. First, it's NOT proof--at best it merely shows that they were familiar with the stuff. Second, it's subject to interpretation. In order to get magic mushrooms out of any of that you need to focus on a few parts and ignore others. They are obviously highly stylized, and the culture's dead so we can't ask the reason behind those stylistic choices. ANY interpretation can be supported by those bits of artwork, so they're not evidence of anything. It's certainly not objective proof that anyone ate anything to alter their senses at any time (I'm not doubting that people did, I'm just saying that what you've presented in no way constitutes proof of it).
Plus they're not old enough to have played a part in the evolution of our brains.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2012, 01:26 AM   #210
pakeha
Penultimate Amazing
 
pakeha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,295
Originally Posted by quarky View Post
...Even the recent evidence for Cro-magnon and neanderthal breeding may have mostly been rape scenarios. ...
No sex, please, we're Neanderthal:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/s...ists-find.html
Quote:
Cambridge University researchers concluded that the DNA similarities were unlikely to be the result of human-Neanderthal sex during their 15,000-year coexistence in Europe.

People living outside Africa share as much as four per cent of their DNA with Neanderthals, a cave-dwelling species with muscular short arms and legs and a brain slightly larger than ours.

The Cambridge researchers examined demographic patterns suggesting that humans were far from intimate with the species they displaced in Europe almost 40,000 years ago.

The study into the genomes of the two species, found a common ancestor 500,000 years ago would be enough to account for the shared DNA.
pakeha is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2012, 04:08 AM   #211
Libra
Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 139
Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
It's one thing to show evidence for the importance of the mushroom in the ritualistic and spiritual history of primitive man (and I doubt if many of us here would deny that) and something completely different to make the leap to evolution.
I agree 100%.

Originally Posted by StankApe View Post

Think of what you are saying:

I take mushroom and knock up a nice primitive lady. We have kids, are you alleging that due to my mushroom taking during conception that I have somehow transferred a "smart gene" to my offspring? Isn't this akin to saying that because I had a large hamburger before sexy time that I will have "beefier" kids?

Heck, unless you can first prove that Magic Shrooms have the ability to alter DNA I don't think you have much of a case.

Unless you are talking about a cultural rather than genetic evolution.
Not responding on behalf of the OP poster, but from what I have come to understand from McKenna's theory, it's rather the changes in pattern of the neurons firing and the brain's "learning" of such patterns to establish typical neural networks that would be of future value.

The increased neural activity in brain regions related to memory http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/200/3/238

in conjunction with the decreased activity and connectivity in the brain's key connector hubs that enables a state of unconstrained cognition
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...98109.abstract

can be postulated to have the effect of increasing willingness, ability and capacity to learn ?


That all said, it implies that the "benifits" could not be passed on genetically or culturally, but only physically by imbibing ?
Libra is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2012, 06:14 AM   #212
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,397
Originally Posted by cosmicaug
I also think you misunderstand the nature of adaptation and evolution and of what I am proposing.
I'll grant that I may be misunderstanding what you're proposing, but I doubt I misunderstand the nature of adaptation and evolution. For one thing, you're coming at this from an adaptationist perspective--a perspective which has been shown to be deeply flawed. You've yet to demonstrate that there's any genetic component to rape, yet are discussing it as if there were one. More significantly, you're taking a single human trait in isolation and discussing the evolutionary implications. The problem is, evolution doesn't work like that. It works on the whole organism. It's entirely plausible, even likely, that if there is a genetic component to rape it's merely as a by-product of other genetically-controlled activities. Rape is violent, for example, and so may be the byproduct of a genetic predisposition to violence in general. Or it may all be cultural. The definition of "rape" isn't as static as people would like to think.

Quote:
Just because everyone is not a rapist doesn't mean the genetics of rape (assuming such a thing exists) have not been maintained and that they have not been maintained by differential survival.
While stasis is a part of the tempo and mode of evolution, calling stasis evolution stretches the word's definition further than I'm willing to take it. The word evolution implies change, and if the population isn't changing it's absurd to say it's evolving.

Besides, you've only been discussing the act of rape itself. So has quarky. You've both been ignoring or severely downplaying the role that other types of sexual relationships play in genetic exchange between human populations. Any number of culturally-forbidden love affairs can happen, and prostitution has been around longer than humans have. quarky is arguing that rape is THE means of genetic exchange, and I simply don't think that's right. There's no evidence to support it other than the fact that rape is disgusting (high-amplitude; it gets our attention).
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2012, 12:31 PM   #213
!Kaggen
Illuminator
 
!Kaggen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 3,740
Originally Posted by Libra View Post
That all said, it implies that the "benifits" could not be passed on genetically or culturally, but only physically by imbibing ?
Well if the receptors for the drugs in the brain were selected for due to the imbibing having some kind of survival advantage then no, the "benefits" even though indirect would be passed on genetically.

The co-evolution of humans and psychotropic plants has been proposed by others.

Take a look at this quote from the article

"The evolutionary origins and significance of drug addiction"
Quote:
When examining the distribution of natural drugs in ancestral environment we see that there was often a limited amount of resources, meaning there was little overactivity of salient (wanting) behavior, causing no need for the adaptive development within the cortico-mesolimbic dopaminergic system of a built-in regulatory system of salience [6,11]. Genetic and environmental factors increasing substance abuse liability may have been of no consequence in ancestral environments due to their limitations. We originally relied on the limitations of ancient environments in that same manner, so when we are introduced to excessive amounts of salience in modern environment, we have no internal control. Basically, our ancient-wired bodies have not yet evolved to adapt to modern environment, leaving us vulnerable to addiction.

A common belief is that psychotropic plant chemicals evolved recurrently throughout evolutionary history [12]. Archaeological records indicate the presence of psychotropic plants and drug use in ancient civilizations as far back as early hominid species about 200 million years ago. Roughly 13,000 years ago, the inhabitants of Timor commonly used betel nut (Areca catechu), as did those in Thailand around 10,700 years ago. At the beginning of European colonialism, and perhaps for 40,000 years before that, Australian aborigines used nicotine from two different indigenous sources: pituri plant (Duboisia hopwoodii) and Nicotiana gossel. North and South Americans also used nicotine from their indigenous plants N. tabacum and N. rustica. Ethiopians and northern Africans were documented as having used an ephedrine-analog, khat (Catha edulis), before European colonization. Cocaine (Erythroxylum coca) was taken by Ecuadorians about 5,000 years ago and by the indigenous people of the western Andes almost 7,000 years ago. The substances were popularly administered through the buccal cavity within the cheek. Nicotine, cocaine, and ephedrine sources were first mixed with an alkali substance, most often wood or lime ash, creating a free base to facilitate diffusion of the drug into the blood stream. Alkali paraphernalia have been found throughout these regions and documented within the archaeological record. Although the buccal method is believed to be most standard method of drug administration, inhabitants of the Americas may have also administered substances nasally, rectally, and by smoking.

Many indigenous civilizations displayed a view of psychotropic plants as food sources, not as external chemicals altering internal homeostasis [12]. The perceived effects by these groups were tolerance to thermal fluctuations, increased energy, and decreased fatigue, all advantageous to fitness by allowing longer foraging session as well as greater ability to sustain in times of limited resources. The plants were used as nutritional sources providing vitamins, minerals, and proteins rather than recreational psychotropic substances inducing inebriation. Due to limited resources within ancient environments, mammalian species most probably sought out CNS neurotransmitter (NT) substitutes in the form of psychotropic allelochemicals, because nutrient NT-precursors were not largely available in the forms of food. Therefore, drugs became food sources to prevent decreased fitness from starvation and death. It is believed that early hominid species evolved in conjunction with the psychotropic flora due to constant exposure with one another. This may be what eventually allowed the above civilizations to use the flora as nutritional substances, therefore increasing both their fitness and viability.

Over time, psychotropic plants evolved to emit allelochemical reactivity to deter threats from herbivores and pathogenic invasions. These allelochemical responses evolved to imitate mammalian NT so as to act as competitive binders and obstruct normal CNS functioning. The allelochemical NT analogs were not anciently as potent as forms of abused substances used in modern environments, but instead were milder precursors that had an impact on the development of the mammalian CNS. The fit of allelochemicals within the CNS indicates some co-evolutionary activity between mammalian brains and psychotropic plants, meaning they interacted ecologically and therefore responded to one another evolutionarily. Basically, series of changes occurred between the mammalian brain and psychotropic plants allowing them affect one another during their processes of evolving. This would have only been possible with mammalian CNS exposure to these allelochemicals, therefore to ancient mammalian psychotropic substance use. The evidence for this theory is compelling. For example, the mammalian brain has evolved receptor systems for plant substances, such as the opioid receptor system, not available by the mammalian body itself. The mammalian body has also evolved to develop defenses against overtoxicity, such as exogenous substance metabolism and vomiting reflexes.
http://www.harmreductionjournal.com/content/2/1/8
__________________
"Anyway, why is a finely-engineered machine of wire and silicon less likely to be conscious than two pounds of warm meat?" Pixy Misa
"We live in a world of more and more information and less and less meaning" Jean Baudrillard
http://bokashiworld.wordpress.com/

Last edited by !Kaggen; 4th December 2012 at 12:32 PM.
!Kaggen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2012, 12:40 PM   #214
!Kaggen
Illuminator
 
!Kaggen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 3,740
Other researchers proposing a co-evolution

"Psychotropic substance-seeking: evolutionary pathology or adaptation"

Quote:
According to a conventional evolutionary perspective, the human propensity
for substance use is the product of a ‘mismatch’ between emotional
mechanisms that evolved in a past without pure drugs or direct routes
of drug administration, and the occurrence of these phenomena in the
contemporary environment. The primary purpose of this review is to
assert that, contrary to the conventional view, humans have shared a coevolutionary
relationship with psychotropic plant substances that is millions
of years old. We argue that this ‘deep time’ relationship is self-evident
both in the extant chemical–ecological adaptations that have evolved in
mammals to metabolize psychotropic plant substances and in the structure
of plant defensive chemicals that have evolved to mimic the structure, and
interfere with the function, of mammalian neurotransmitters. Given this
evidence, we question how emotional mechanisms easily triggered by plant
toxins can have evolved. Our argument is also supported with archeological
and historical evidence of substance use in antiquity suggesting that,
for people in the past, psychotropic plant substances were as much a
mundane everyday item as they are for many people today
http://anthro.vancouver.wsu.edu/medi...adaptation.pdf
__________________
"Anyway, why is a finely-engineered machine of wire and silicon less likely to be conscious than two pounds of warm meat?" Pixy Misa
"We live in a world of more and more information and less and less meaning" Jean Baudrillard
http://bokashiworld.wordpress.com/
!Kaggen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2012, 12:58 PM   #215
StankApe
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,643
Originally Posted by Libra View Post
I agree 100%.



Not responding on behalf of the OP poster, but from what I have come to understand from McKenna's theory, it's rather the changes in pattern of the neurons firing and the brain's "learning" of such patterns to establish typical neural networks that would be of future value.

The increased neural activity in brain regions related to memory http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/200/3/238

in conjunction with the decreased activity and connectivity in the brain's key connector hubs that enables a state of unconstrained cognition
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...98109.abstract

can be postulated to have the effect of increasing willingness, ability and capacity to learn ?


That all said, it implies that the "benifits" could not be passed on genetically or culturally, but only physically by imbibing ?
But for this to work, one has to assume that by taking mushrooms, and altering the network of the neurons, then reproducing, that the alteration made in the taker is passed on to the offspring, and I know of no evidence that this is the case.
StankApe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2012, 01:03 PM   #216
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,397
The abstract appears to suffer from the exact same problem the OP does: the authors never think to determine whether humans consumed the substances in question in the past. Thus, it remains a Just-So Story: plausible, possibly interesting, but nothing more.
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2012, 04:24 PM   #217
cosmicaug
Muse
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 523
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
I'll grant that I may be misunderstanding what you're proposing, but I doubt I misunderstand the nature of adaptation and evolution. For one thing, you're coming at this from an adaptationist perspective--a perspective which has been shown to be deeply flawed.
I do not view this discussion in this manner. I do not see myself as coming "from an adaptationist perspective". I am not telling you that rape exists therefore rape evolved (that would be an adaptationist perspective). I am telling you that your dismissal of the possibility of rape being an evolutionary factor propagated by evolution is not well founded.
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
You've yet to demonstrate that there's any genetic component to rape, yet are discussing it as if there were one.
Why would I have to demonstrate anything when all I am trying to do is point out how your dismissal or rape as a possible adaptive strategy is unfounded?
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
More significantly, you're taking a single human trait in isolation and discussing the evolutionary implications. The problem is, evolution doesn't work like that. It works on the whole organism.
So what? Individual traits (it might be a stretch to call a greater propensity to rape a "trait" but, whatever) still affect fitness. Or are we now to suggest that we can't really talk about balanced polymorphism with respect to the sickle cell trait in areas endemic to malaria because evolution acts on a whole organism?
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
It's entirely plausible, even likely, that if there is a genetic component to rape it's merely as a by-product of other genetically-controlled activities.
Duh! That is, if we accept that it has a genetic component (and your example below shows how it might be possible --though my guess, and it is only a guess, is that it may be more complex and may involve personality factors which are probably hard wired and genetically based). I think it is likely but I have not claimed that I do.
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Rape is violent, for example, and so may be the byproduct of a genetic predisposition to violence in general. Or it may all be cultural. The definition of "rape" isn't as static as people would like to think.
It's clearly an evolved evolutionary strategy in other animals (ducks being the classic example, of course) but you suggest that it is absurd for humans. Why? I mean, other than it being unpleasant to think so.
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
While stasis is a part of the tempo and mode of evolution, calling stasis evolution stretches the word's definition further than I'm willing to take it. The word evolution implies change, and if the population isn't changing it's absurd to say it's evolving.
You are the one who introduced that word, not me. And I am not saying any population is not changing.

But yeah, most natural selection falls in the category of stabilizing selection. This is not exactly what I am talking about here, though, since I have already allowed that we are dealing with competing evolutionary strategies instead of selective forces which favor any one thing.
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Besides, you've only been discussing the act of rape itself. So has quarky. You've both been ignoring or severely downplaying the role that other types of sexual relationships play in genetic exchange between human populations. Any number of culturally-forbidden love affairs can happen, and prostitution has been around longer than humans have. quarky is arguing that rape is THE means of genetic exchange, and I simply don't think that's right. There's no evidence to support it other than the fact that rape is disgusting (high-amplitude; it gets our attention).
I'm not specifically talking about genetic exchange between populations. Maybe quarky is talking about that now but even he didn't start out that way. He wrote "Rape's role in evolution, imho, is extremely strong, yet seldom mentioned." and Dancing David replied that "Well except for one thing the penalty for rape in most ancient (extended from historic records) societies is death." (which, I might add, is not even strictly true in the ancient society most embedded in the cultural background of most of the readers of this forum in which the punishment for rape can be nothing more than paying money to the dad and marrying the girl --but I'm being pedantic).

In any case, you seem to be the only person here who is claiming that quarky is arguing that rape is the only or the main means of genetic exchange between populations. I certainly have not seen him make this claim.
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2012, 05:17 PM   #218
cosmicaug
Muse
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 523
Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
Well if the receptors for the drugs in the brain were selected for due to the imbibing having some kind of survival advantage then no, the "benefits" even though indirect would be passed on genetically.

The co-evolution of humans and psychotropic plants has been proposed by others.

Take a look at this quote from the article

"The evolutionary origins and significance of drug addiction"
http://www.harmreductionjournal.com/content/2/1/8
Quote:
The evidence for this theory is compelling. For example, the mammalian brain has evolved receptor systems for plant substances, such as the opioid receptor system, not available by the mammalian body itself.
Such an evolutionary race should typically involve reduced sensitivity to the exogenous chemical in question. If you evolve in frequent contact with, for instance, a certain species of poisonous snake, the molecular targets for the venom should evolve to be less sensitive to it rather than more (all the while preserving native function). This ought to be no different.
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2012, 06:32 PM   #219
Perpetual Student
Illuminator
 
Perpetual Student's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,205
For what its worth, if rape does have any genetic basis, it seems that the selection pressure supporting its survival would be quite strong in spite of the dire societal consequences for the perpetrator. However, as far as I know, no genetic basis for rape has been demonstrated. I recall a Scientific American article about this subject years ago, but I don't remember any details other than the hypothesis itself.
__________________
It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.
- Richard P. Feynman

ξ
Perpetual Student is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th December 2012, 12:52 AM   #220
Libra
Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 139
Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
Well if the receptors for the drugs in the brain were selected for due to the imbibing having some kind of survival advantage then no, the "benefits" even though indirect would be passed on genetically.

As far as I know, Psilocyn mimics the effects of serotonin and binds to the serotonergic receptors, especially the 5-HT2A receptor.

The receptors are thus an inherent charecteristic of the specie in question and not due to another chemical that managed to fool the brain in docking on them because it so-happens to be a good enough fit ?
Libra is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th December 2012, 12:58 AM   #221
Libra
Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 139
Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
But for this to work, one has to assume that by taking mushrooms, and altering the network of the neurons, then reproducing, that the alteration made in the taker is passed on to the offspring, and I know of no evidence that this is the case.

Agreed. Hence the statement that it could only have been passed on physically from parent to child at an appropriate age in a cyclical fashion generation after generation.
Libra is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th December 2012, 08:02 AM   #222
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,397
Originally Posted by cosmicaug
I am telling you that your dismissal of the possibility of rape being an evolutionary factor propagated by evolution is not well founded.
Considering I never dismissed rape as being an evolutionary factor, I doubt the rest of your analysis is going to be worth reading. Go back and read what I actually wrote. You'll find that I'm arguing that no one--not quarky, not you, NO ONE--has given any evidence that rape plays as major a role as quarky assumes. And the rejection of alternate mechanisms for genetic exchange isn't substantiated beyond "There were taboos". Anyone who can't see the flaw in that has no knowledge of human behavior and has proven themselves to be unable to formulate informed opinions on the subject.

Quote:
Why would I have to demonstrate anything when all I am trying to do is point out how your dismissal or rape as a possible adaptive strategy is unfounded?
Well, for starters, you have to demonstrate that the argument you're arguing against actually exists. Since it's entirely the result of you misreading what I've written, that's going to be quite challanging.

Quote:
So what? Individual traits (it might be a stretch to call a greater propensity to rape a "trait" but, whatever) still affect fitness.
In some extreme cases, yes, an individual trait impacts survivorship. It's vastly more common, however, that traits work together. Fitness space is n-dimensional, not two-dimensional. And those cases where one trait does have an extraordinarily powerful impact on evolution tend to have extremely powerful selection pressures associated with them. You mentioned millaria resistence, which is a perfect example--if you don't have that resistence in certain areas of the world you die, usually before you can propogate your genes. That's a strong selection pressure. If I don't rape someone I'm certainly not going to die--and considering the number of other ways for genetic exchange to occur, there's no reason to assume without supporting evidence that rape is a strong driving force.

Again, I've never said rape doesn't have some impact. We're debating relative impacts here. quarky is arguing that rape is the only thing worth considering. I'm arguing that humans are a tad more complex than that. You're arguing against something of your own creation.

Quote:
It's clearly an evolved evolutionary strategy in other animals (ducks being the classic example, of course) but you suggest that it is absurd for humans. Why? I mean, other than it being unpleasant to think so.
It's not absurd to think that humans rape others. Again, it's absurd to think--in the absence of evidence--that it's a driving force. You mentioned ducks, which was really dumb of you because ducks help prove my point. Ducks DO have a strong selection pressure involving rape. Female and male ducks are in a bit of an arms race--the male ducks to rape the females, the females to avoid being raped. The result are vaginal cannals and penises that are remarkably convoluted and complex. Humans do not have those--we have fairly large testicals, meaning (in apes anyway) that we're not a species that's defined by fidelity to one's mate, but we still have fairly straigh-forward penises and vaginas.

My point is, yes, other organisms use rape as a means of reproduction. There's evidence for that. Humans ALSO use it, but given the pristine lack of evidence offered by quarky the conclusion that rape was the driving force of inter-group genetic exchange in early humans isn't one anyone should accept.

Quote:
You are the one who introduced that word, not me.
I'm genuinely puzzled how you can fail to get the allusion there. I'm using extremely common terms for discussing evolution--this is the equivalent of you talking to a rocket scientist and asking "Why do you keep talking about momentum? I'm talking about rockets!"

Quote:
He wrote "Rape's role in evolution, imho, is extremely strong, yet seldom mentioned."
As I've said numerous times, we're talking about the relative importance of various reproductive stratigies. quarky has provided NO evidence for his conclusion, he merely asserted it. There's no justification given for rape having an "extremely strong" influence on evolution. You seem more than willing to accept what quarky says--but for some reason, when someone says "Where's the evidence?" and "I think you're wrong; I think rape probably plays a fairly small roll, with other means of genetic exchange playing a much larger roll" you read "Rape never happens".
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2012, 11:18 AM   #223
Halfcentaur
Philosopher
 
Halfcentaur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 6,644
Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
the more I read all this nonsense the more I feel like the IQ of the forum just dropped off a cliff!! these arguments are beyond silly!

and , In My Not So Dadburn Humble Opinion, it looks like a big end around to saying" drugs are great, my terrible lifestyle makes me smarter and more evolved than you are!"

I've heard that line of talk before, it's half baked garbage (or perhaps totally baked?)
Possibly because you're projecting your own self aggrandizing sense of superiority here while you dismiss everyone else with these cliche straw men you subscribe to when it comes to mind altering substances other than beer.
Halfcentaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 10:06 AM   #224
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
Following on from my week suspension for giving StankApe harm reduction advise on how to more safely use the drug of choice he openly said he uses I will continue my argument henceforth. I have had a reflective week to contemplate the flaws and positives of this theory.

I will try to make this post as if it were the OP for this thread, giving a historical and empirical grounding to a theory that went largely unaddressed in my opening post.

Terence McKenna was the first proponent of this theory, which theorizes that as the North African jungles receded toward the end of the most recent ice age, giving way to grasslands, a branch of our tree-dwelling primate ancestors left the branches and took up a life out in the open - following around herds of ungulates, nibbling what they could along the way.

Among the new items in their diet were psilocybin-containing mushrooms growing in the dung of these ungulate herds. The changes caused by the introduction of this drug to the primate diet were many -- McKenna theorizes, for instance, that synesthesia (the blurring of boundaries between the senses) caused by psilocybin led to the development of spoken language: the ability to form pictures in another person's mind through the use of vocal sounds. About 12,000 years ago, further climate changes removed the mushroom from the human diet, resulting in a new set of profound changes in our species as we reverted to pre-mushroomed and frankly brutal primate social structures that had been modified and/or repressed by less frequent consumption of psilocybin.

McKenna's theory is based on a great deal of supposition interpolating between the few fragmentary facts we know about hominid and early human history. In addition, because McKenna (who describes himself as "an explorer, not a scientist") is also a proponent of much wilder suppositions, thus his more reasonable theories are usually disregarded by the very scientists whose informed criticism is crucial for their development.

This post will try to address other cultural myths about Apes unprecedentedly quick brain and minds evolution from Apes to Human.

"The 20th century mind is nostalgic for the paradise that once existed on the mushroom-dotted plains of Africa, where the plant-human symbiosis occurred that pulled us out of the animal body and into the tool-using, culture-making, imagination-exploring creature that we are."
- Mckenna

Human Plant Symbiosis

Mutual symbiosis in biology means two distinct types of life form that have mutual benefit from their company. Such a sucker fish that lives off plankton on a whales back; by this the relationship shares an evolutionary, survival and biological advantage;the whale gets cleaned and a massage the fish gets protection from the huge whale. Likewise, as plants have effected and depend on humans for the dispersal of seeds and other means, Mckenna posited that it was very likely that we in turn benefited from forest vegetation in some way such as mushrooms.

It was later found out that mushrooms do rely symbiotically on us to spread their spores far and wide, as some fungi and mushrooms can survive through our digestive system and germinate when back outside, which is why magic mushrooms are often found near animal excrement.

From apes to beneficial dietary adventurers

At Gombe Steam National Park was one of the fist institutions that noticed Apes would tend to even eat food that they did not appear to like the taste of, or were not able to digest very well. Despite previously not enjoying this food, the Apes would still selectively go looking for it [1] Eventually a redish oil was found called Rhiarubrine-A. Neil Towers of British Columbia University soon found out that this oil kills bacteria in their dozens, but just below the significant 10 in a million to make it clinically dangerous. [2]

Thus it seemed that even if the food they learn to eat was unpleasant, if it has a positive effect on it's well being, health or mind in some way, they would tend to continue eating it by self medicating themselves through their choice of food selection from their surrounding natural pharmacy [3][4][5]

Since other animals enjoy psychoactive drugs, like cats love catnip, or monkeys enjoy alcohol they scrounge from humans, it is only natural to expect chimps to also; and numerous studies have found this if they enjoy the medicinal effects they continue to ingest it despite of the taste [5][6] This is sometimes referred to zoopharmacognosy [7][8][9] The basic premise of zoo- pharmacognosy is that animals utilize plant secondary compounds or other non-nutritional substances to medicate themselves. Among primatologists a major focus of concern about plant secondary compounds in the diet has been on how and why pri- mates can cope with their presence

You are what you think, as well as what you eat

Rather than theorizing our sudden evolution was merely due to an expanded diet as our ancestors moved around, Mckenna argues there is a a primary factor often overlooked, and he made the argument for a select few psychedelic foods we found, that centuries of ingesting and experimenting with set us down the road of evolving into the true Humans we are today. Back then each encounter with a new food would have been thought of the same, whether it was a fruit, a drug or an insect a lot of care would at first have to be taken.

As our diets increased so did our perception of varieties of new foods and tastes, Gastronomy was born shortly after our taste for novel pharmacology, which must have preceded it, as maintenance of health and thought is a regulation of diet seen in most animals.[10]

Mckenna explains how the mental changes elicited from psychedelics likely played an even bigger role than the nutritional diet in how we evolved socially and culturally here:

"The primate tendency to form dominance heirarchies was temporarily interrupted for about 100,000 years by the psilocybin in the paleolithic diet. This behavioral style of male dominance was chemically interrupted by psilocybin in the diet, so it allowed the style of socialorganization called partnership to emerge, and that that occurred during the period when language, altruism, planning, moral values, esthetics, music and so forth -- everything associated with humanness -- emerged during that period. About 12,000 years ago, the mushrooms left the human diet because they were no longer available, due to climatological change and the previous tendency to form dominance hierarchies re-emerged. So, this is what the historic dilemma is: we have all these qualities that were evolved during the suppression of male dominance that are now somewhat at loggerheads with the tendency of society in a situation of re-established male dominance.

The paleolithic situation was orgiastic and this made it impossible for men to trace lines of male paternity, consequently there was no concept of 'my children' for men. It was 'our children' meaning 'we, the group.' This orgiastic style worked into the effects of higher doses of psilocybin to create a situation of frequent boundary dissolution. That's what sexuality is, on one level, about and it's what psychedelics, on another level, are about. With the termination of this orgiastic, mushroom using style of existence, a very neurotic and repressive social style emerged which is now worldwide and typical of western civilization." (Terence McKenna: Mushrooms Sex and Society Interview by Philip H. Farber)


The missing link to explain the evolution of creativity, altruism, and new thinking

Mckennas contention was that is was just not variety in physical food alone that aided the expansion and sudden power of the human mind to evolve, that means various plant alkaloids would have to be involved, and some of these would be DMT, Psilocybin and Harmalin.

In research done back in the 1960's by Roland Fisher, which has been left unchallenged since, experimented by giving students small doses of psilocybin and then testing their visual acuity by moving lines around on a piece of paper. He found that their visual accuracy and awareness of surrounding visual stimuli was greatly improved [11] Unfortunately due it's legality only limited further tests have been done, but many subjective reports report the same at threshold dosages. If this is the case, for a species of tree dwelling primates and hunter gatherers this would provide a tremendous advantage in hunting for food and climbing trees. And they would have to come down out of the trees out of their comfort zone to do this, as the only place this miracle hunting food grew was on the floor of the forest, thus starting the human evolutionary process.

The next major steps for the full evolution of humankind

The main three advantages McKenna identified as being of critical importance to the survival of Apes are that in higher doses, McKenna claims, the mushroom acts as a sexual stimulator, which would make it even more beneficial evolutionary (it would result to more offspring), and at even higher doses the mushroom would have given humans the ability for self-reflection, which McKenna believed was unique to humans, and the first truly religious experiences (which, as he believed, were the basis for the foundation of all subsequent religions to date). Another factor that McKenna talked about was the mushroom's potency to promote linguistic thinking. This would have promoted vocalisation, which in turn would have acted in cleansing the brain (based on a scientific theory that vibrations from speaking cause the precipitation of impurities from the brain to the cerebrospinal fluid), which would further mutate our brain.

All these factors according to McKenna were the most important factors that promoted our evolution towards the Homo sapiens species. After this transformation took place, our species would have begun moving out of Africa to populate the rest of the planet Later on[10]

Sensory

Noticeable changes to the audio, visual, and tactile senses may become apparent around an hour after ingestion. These shifts in perception visually include enhancement and contrasting of colors, strange light phenomena (such as auras or "halos" around light sources), increased visual acuity, surfaces that seem to ripple, shimmer, or breathe; complex open and closed eye visuals of form constants or images, objects that warp, morph, or change solid colors; a sense of melting into the environment, and trails behind moving objects. Sounds seem to be heard with increased clarity; music, for example, can often take on a profound sense of cadence and depth. Some users experience synesthesia, wherein they perceive, for example, a visualization of color upon hearing a particular sound [13] Similar psychedelics such as marijuana are used to increase visual acuity for conditions like glaucoma as well as for therapeutic use in numerous conditions, including pain, stroke, cancer, obesity, osteoporosis, fertility, neurodegenerative diseases, multiple sclerosis, and inflammatory diseases, among others[26], and further studies have been done on it's enhancement of visual accuracy and general benefits to the retina at nighttime as well as in the day time.[27][28] These seem especially true when the subject is moving and no in a stationary position[29]

Increased spirituality

In 2006, the United States government funded a randomized and double-blinded study by Johns Hopkins University, which studied the spiritual effects of psilocybin in particular. That is, they did not use mushrooms specifically (in fact, each individual mushroom piece can vary wildly in psilocybin and psilocin content[14] ). The study involved 36 college-educated adults (average age of 46) who had never tried psilocybin nor had a history of drug use, and who had religious or spiritual interests. The participants were closely observed for eight-hour intervals in a laboratory while under the influence of psilocybin mushrooms[15] .

One-third of the participants reported that the experience was the single most spiritually significant moment of their lives and more than two-thirds reported it was among the top five most spiritually significant experiences. Two months after the study, 79% of the participants reported increased well-being or satisfaction; friends, relatives, and associates confirmed this. They also reported anxiety and depression symptoms to be decreased or completely gone. Despite highly controlled conditions to minimize adverse effects, 22% of subjects (8 of 36) had notable experiences of fear, some with paranoia. The authors, however, reported that all these instances were "readily managed with reassurance."[15]

As Medicine

For more health related information on the main psycho-active ingredient, see psilocybin Psilocybe villarrealiae, which is only known to a small area of Mexico There have been calls for medical investigation of the use of synthetic and mushroom-derived psilocybin for the development of improved treatments of various mental conditions, including chronic cluster headaches,[16] following numerous anecdotal reports of benefits. There are also several accounts of psilocybin mushrooms sending both obsessive-compulsive disorders ("OCD") and OCD-related clinical depression (both being widespread and debilitating mental health conditions) into complete remission immediately and for up to months at a time, compared to current medications which often have both limited efficacy[17] and frequent undesirable side-effects.[18]

"Developing drugs that are more effective and faster acting for the treatment of OCD is of utmost importance and until recently, little hope was in hand. A new potential avenue of treatment may exist. There are several reported cases concerning the beneficial effects of hallucinogenic drugs (psilocybin and LSD), potent stimulators of 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C receptors, in patients with OCD (Brandrup and Vanggaard, 1977, Rapoport, 1987, Moreno and Delgado, 1997) and related disorders such as body dysmorphic disorder (Hanes, 1996)."[19]

Emotional evolution

As with other psychedelics such as LSD, the experience, or "trip," is strongly dependent upon set and setting. A negative environment could likely induce a bad trip, whereas a comfortable and familiar environment would allow for a pleasant experience. Many users find it preferable to ingest the mushrooms with friends, people they're familiar with, or people that are also 'tripping', although neither side of this binary is without exception.[18][19] This would make users more socially aware of who they are emotionally close to, and give an amount of introspection into their emotions they would not have without the use of the psychedelics.

Archeological evidence

There is some archaeological evidence for their use in ancient times. Several mesolithic rock paintings from Tassili n'Ajjer (a prehistoric North African site identified with the Capsian culture) have been identified by author Giorgio Samorini as possibly depicting the shamanic use of mushrooms, possibly Psilocybe.[20] Hallucinogenic species of Psilocybe have a history of use among the native peoples of Mesoamerica for religious communion, divination, and healing, from pre-Columbian times up to the present day.

Mushroom-shaped statuettes found at archaeological sites seem to indicate that ritual use of hallucinogenic mushrooms is quite ancient.[21] Mushroom stones and motifs have been found in Mayan temple ruins in Guatemala,[22] though there is considerable controversy as to whether these objects indicate the use of hallucinogenic mushrooms or whether they had some other significance with the mushroom shape being simply a coincidence. More concretely, a statuette dating from ca. 200 AD and depicting a mushroom strongly resembling Psilocybe mexicana was found in a west Mexican shaft and chamber tomb in the state of Colima. Hallucinogenic Psilocybe were known to the Aztecs as teonanácatl (literally "divine mushroom" - agglutinative form of teó (god, sacred) and nanácatl (mushroom) in Náhuatl) and were reportedly served at the coronation of the Aztec ruler Moctezuma II in 1502. Aztecs and Mazatecs referred to psilocybin mushrooms as genius mushrooms, divinatory mushrooms, and wondrous mushrooms, when translated into English.[22] Bernardino de Sahagún reported ritualistic use of teonanácatl by the Aztecs, when he traveled to Central America after the expedition of Hernán Cortés.

At present, hallucinogenic mushroom use has been reported among a number of groups spanning from central [23] Mexico to Oaxaca, including groups of Nahua, Mixtecs, Mixe, Mazatecs,[24] Zapotecs, and others.

References

[1] Huffman, Michael (2007) Current evidence for self-medication in primates: A multidisciplinary perspective - YEARBOOK OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 40:171–200 

[2] G. H. Neil Towers (1996) 'Leaf-swallowing by chimpanzees: A behavioral adaptation for the control of strongyle nematode infections' - International Journal of Primatology August 1996, Volume 17, Issue 4, pp 475-503

[3] Dale H. Clayton Nathan D. Wolfe (1998) The adaptive significance of self-medication Volume 8, Issue 2, February 1993, Pages 60–63

[4] Andrew Fowler, Yianna Koutsioni, Volker Sommer (2007) Leaf-swallowing in Nigerian chimpanzees: evidence for assumed self-medication January 2007, Volume 48, Issue 1, pp 73-76

[5] Harold Altshuler (1975) 'Intragastric self-administration of psychoactive drugs by the rhesus monkey' Volume 17, Issue 6, 15 September, Life Sciences Pages 883–890

[6] Glander KE (1994) Nonhuman primate self-medication with wild plant foods - University of Arizona Press, pp. 239–256.

[7] Huffman, A (2001) 'Self-Medicative Behavior in the African Great Apes: An Evolutionary Perspective into the Origins of Human Traditional Medicine 'BioScience 51(8):651-661. 2001

[8] Huffman MA et al (1994) 'The diversity of medicinal plant use by chimpanzees in the wild.' Chimpanzee Cultures. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, pp. 129–148.

[9] Rodriguez E et al (1993) Zoopharmacog 'The use of medicinal plants by animals. In KR Downum, JT Romeo, and H Stafford' Recent Advances in Phytochemistry, vol. 27: Phytochemical Potential of Tropic Plants. New York: Plenum, pp. 89–105.

[10] Terence McKenna (1999) 'Food of the gods: the search for the original tree of knowledge: a radical history of plants, drugs, and human evolution - Medical Book Publication

[11] Fischer, Roland; Hill, Richard (1970). "Psilocybin-Induced Contraction of Nearby Visual Space". Agents and Actions 1 (4): 190–197.

[13] D.M. Turner Psilocybin Mushrooms: The Extraterrestrial Invasion Of Earth? The Essential Psychedelic Guide - By D. M. Turner, First Printing - September 1994 Copyright ©1994 by Panther Press ISBN 0-9642636-1-0

[14] Stafford PJ. (1992). Psychedelics Encyclopedia. Berkeley, California: Ronin Publishing. ISBN 0-914171-51-8

[15] Griffins et al Psilocybin can occasion mystical-type experiences having substantial and sustained personal meaning and spiritual significance Psychopharmacology187(3):268-83. August 2006.

[16] Arran Frood (2007) Cluster Busters NATURE MEDICINE VOLUME 13 | NUMBER 1 | JANUARY 2007, Paper endorsed and made public by MAPS.

[17] Christopher Wiegand, M.D (2060) Safety, Tolerability, and Efficacy of Psilocybin in 9 Patients With Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder J Clin Psychiatry. 2006 Nov;67(11):1735-40.

[18] Stamets, Paul (1996) Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World. Ten Speed Press. ISBN 0898158397.

[19] Simon G.Powell The Psilocybin Solution:Prelude To A Paradigm Shift

[20] Giorgio Samorini (1992) The oldest Representations of Hallucinogenic Mushrooms in the World. Integration, vol. 2/3, pp. 69-78,

[21] John M. Allegro The Sacred Mushroom And The Cross Gnostic Media Research & Publishing; 40 Anv edition (12 Nov 2009)

[22] Stamets, Paul (1996) [1996]. Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World. Ten Speed Press. p. 11. ISBN 0898158397.

[23] Stamets, Paul (1996) [1996]. Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World. Ten Speed Press. p. 7. ISBN 0898158397

[24] Johnson, Jean Bassett (1939). "The Elements of Mazatec Witchcraft". Gothenburg, Sweden: Ethnological Studies, No. 9.

[26] Ben Amar M (2006) Cannabinoids in medicine: A review of their therapeutic potential (2006) Journal of Ethno-Pharmacology 2006 Apr 21;105(1-2):1-25

[27]Stephen Yazull (2009) Endocannabinoids in the retina: From marijuana to neuroprotection Progress in Retinal and Eye Research 27 (2008) 501–526

[28]Stephen Yazulla (2006) Cannabis improves night vision: a case study of dark adaptometry and scotopic sensitivity in kif smokers of the Rif mountains of northern Morocco Survey of Ophthalmology Volume 46, Issue 1, July–August 2001, Pages 43–5

[29] MICHAEL SIVAK HUMAN FACTORS AND HIGHWAY-ACCIDENT CAUSATION: SOME THEORETICAL CONSIDERATIONS Acrid Anal & Prw.. Vol 13. pp 614, MICHAEL SIVAK

"Adams et al. [ 19751 have found that static visual acuity is unaffected by alcohol or marijuana intoxication. On the other hand, the results of Brown et al.[1975] indicate a significant effect of alcohol and marijuana on dynamic visual acuity. Thus, dynamic visual acuity has been shown to be more affected by frequently present transient human states (i.e. alcohol and marijuana intoxication) than static visual acuity. Therefore, according to the present rationale, dynamic visual acuity would be rated as more critical to safe driving than static visual acuity. (Obviously, before reaching any firm conclusions, effects of other transient states on both of the skills in question would have to be ascertained.)"


If anyone desires the full texts to the references I have supplied I have all of them, please PM me for them.
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 10:16 AM   #225
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
And if anyone has valid criticism of any claims made above please feel free to make your argument here, with references, so I can add them to the text above for future use.
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 11:10 AM   #226
cosmicaug
Muse
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 523
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
And if anyone has valid criticism of any claims made above please feel free to make your argument here, with references, so I can add them to the text above for future use.
As has been pointed out, you have made no useful claims. McKenna's hypothesis is not taken seriously not because of guilt by association with nonsense like Timewave zero but because it is a just so story.

As to the paintings, as I and others have pointed out the Tassili paintings, assuming they represent psilocybian mushroom use (which to me seems extremely plausible --though I'd love to see actual photographs, which I have never seen, rather than drawings of photographs), are only about 10000 years old. Whatever major breakthroughs we made which made us who we are already had happened a couple of hundred thousands of years before.
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 11:53 AM   #227
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
As has been pointed out, you have made no useful claims. McKenna's hypothesis is not taken seriously not because of guilt by association with nonsense like Timewave zero but because it is a just so story.

A story with pretty good empirical evidence, as the above post showed, did it not?

Please feel free to pick apart the post point by point if it's just "a story".

Please include refutations to each scientific reference I supplied to support your case.

Quote:
As to the paintings, as I and others have pointed out the Tassili paintings, assuming they represent psilocybian mushroom use (which to me seems extremely plausible --though I'd love to see actual photographs, which I have never seen, rather than drawings of photographs), are only about 10000 years old. Whatever major breakthroughs we made which made us who we are already had happened a couple of hundred thousands of years before.

Do you have evidence of cave art from a couple of hundred thousand years ago to refute the theory this thread is about? Please post them if you do. Would be very interesting.

I can supply voluminous evidence of completely disparate cultures with the same mushroom/psychedelic inspired art if you require it. The evidence is there, it just needs to be looked at objectively.
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 11:58 AM   #228
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 33,550
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
And if anyone has valid criticism of any claims made above please feel free to make your argument here, with references, so I can add them to the text above for future use.
Occams' Razor.
tsig is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 12:01 PM   #229
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,397
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz
Please feel free to pick apart the post point by point if it's just "a story".
Just So Story=/=just a story.

Please learn the terms. Otherwise you will not be taken seriously.

Quote:
Please include refutations
You're still basically arguing that since it's plausible it must be true--the soul and center of a Just So Story. Your argument amounts to "If you can't prove it didn't happen, it must have!" Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. It's not enough to show that it's plausible. You must show it actually happened. Lots and lots of plausible things never happened.

Quote:
I can supply voluminous evidence of completely disparate cultures with the same mushroom/psychedelic inspired art if you require it. The evidence is there, it just needs to be looked at objectively.
I've seen what you consider "evidence". You're not interpreting it objectively. I'm sorry, but there's no reason to assume that the things in question are the mushrooms you want them to be. And even if they were, there's no reason to assume that they were eaten in any significant quantity. There are alternative explanations you simply refuse to examine, as I've explained to you before, and which you're ignoring.
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 12:06 PM   #230
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
J
You're still basically arguing that since it's plausible it must be true--the soul and center of a Just So Story.

It's far more plausible than any other theory I have heard, so it very well might be true.

Please supply an alternative theory, in the spirit of the forum and science.
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 12:08 PM   #231
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Occams' Razor.

Is good for shaving. Not so good for complex science.

Unless you believe in simplicity and intuition over empirical evidence.
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 12:11 PM   #232
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,397
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz
It's far more plausible than any other theory I have heard, so it very well might be true.
That's not sufficient.

Quote:
Please supply an alternative theory, in the spirit of the forum and science.
No. That's not how science works, despite what you might believe. I find your theory to be too poorly supported to accept it. I'm not required in any way to propose an alternative. I can if I want, but there's absolutely no obligation on my part to do so. It's more than permitted for me to say "Not good enough" and walk away. That's the way REAL science is done all the time.

Furthermore, the notion "If you can't come up with an alternative I must be right" is a logical fallacy. This is little more than the Creationist tactic of trying to be right by default (ie, if they prove evolution wrong there's only, to their mind, one alternative, so it MUST be right, right?). Doesn't work that way. I've more than satisfied my obligation as a scientist to tell you what data would convince me I'm wrong. You either won't or can't provide it, so I'm perfectly within my rights to reject your hypothesis and stop there.
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 12:38 PM   #233
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
Happy walking then.

Of course real science is done by walking away from alternative theories
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 12:44 PM   #234
cosmicaug
Muse
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 523
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Do you have evidence of cave art from a couple of hundred thousand years ago to refute the theory this thread is about? Please post them if you do. Would be very interesting.
Let me get the straight, the fact that I cannot produce an example of cave art 200000 years old which states "We the undersigned, Ug, Zog, Ur and Borkborkbork, hereby affirm that our evolutionary course was in no way significantly affected by the consumption of psilocybian mushrooms" supports your position?

Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Furthermore, the notion "If you can't come up with an alternative I must be right" is a logical fallacy. This is little more than the Creationist tactic of trying to be right by default (ie, if they prove evolution wrong there's only, to their mind, one alternative, so it MUST be right, right?). Doesn't work that way. I've more than satisfied my obligation as a scientist to tell you what data would convince me I'm wrong. You either won't or can't provide it, so I'm perfectly within my rights to reject your hypothesis and stop there.
This.
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 12:47 PM   #235
cosmicaug
Muse
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 523
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Happy walking then.

Of course real science is done by walking away from alternative theories
No, real science is done by making falsifiable hypotheses and putting them to the test.
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 01:00 PM   #236
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
The falsifiable hypothesis is that the use of psychedelics in our ancient ancestors catalyzed the evolution of our consciousness into a drastically different and boarder form of primate consciousness, the transformation of which drastically contributed to the difference between us as humans and our non psychedelic ingesting primate counterparts.

The evidence for this is above. Your choice of replying to it or not is your own.
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 02:15 PM   #237
Perpetual Student
Illuminator
 
Perpetual Student's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,205
How interesting! There are many people who are predictably attracted to woo as flies are attracted to dung. The unsupportable and unfounded speculations of this thread are just another manifestation of this attraction.
__________________
It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.
- Richard P. Feynman

ξ

Last edited by Perpetual Student; 8th December 2012 at 02:16 PM.
Perpetual Student is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 02:34 PM   #238
Squeegee Beckenheim
Philosopher
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,687
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
The falsifiable hypothesis is that the use of psychedelics in our ancient ancestors catalyzed the evolution of our consciousness into a drastically different and boarder form of primate consciousness, the transformation of which drastically contributed to the difference between us as humans and our non psychedelic ingesting primate counterparts.

The evidence for this is above. Your choice of replying to it or not is your own.
How have you gone about trying to falsify this hypothesis?
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 03:24 PM   #239
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
How have you gone about trying to falsify this hypothesis?

By researching it and supplying the evidence I have found. Much of which can be found in the above post. And much of which (in a more empirical form) is hopefully soon be be published in an open access journal.
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th December 2012, 03:25 PM   #240
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
How interesting! There are many people who are predictably attracted to woo as flies are attracted to dung. The unsupportable and unfounded speculations of this thread are just another manifestation of this attraction.

Nice scientific comment. Would this pass peer review?
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

JREF Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:27 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2001-2013, James Randi Educational Foundation. All Rights Reserved.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.