School shooting: but don't mention guns! - Page 2

JoeTheJuggler · 14th December 2012, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by R.Mackey

Out of two service pistols??

Let's not join the speculation, guys.

I wasn't speculating. I was repeating a witness quote from a reputable news outlet.

At the press conference, the police said there are about 20 dead including at least 10 children.

Something like 100 rounds sounds like an accurate estimate.

ETA: R.Mackey, why would you take early reports of the number and type of weapons used as reliable but any other information so reported as "speculation"?

DDWW · 14th December 2012, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Cain

Guns don't kill people; people kill people. This guy could've stacked a higher body count by setting the building on fire, so are we gonna outlaw matches and gasoline? What next, we gonna outlaw grenades?? Don't be ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Unfortunately, crazy people find ways.

My prayers for them.

DDWW

Delscottio · 14th December 2012, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Agatha

Terrible news. I cannot fathom what could make a person take a gun into a school full of young children.

Sure fire way of getting some attention / infamy is all I can think of? I can't really blame the media but it would be nice if they didn't report these events in such a dramatic fashion.

R.Mackey · 14th December 2012, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

I wasn't speculating. I was repeating a witness quote from a reputable news outlet.

At the press conference, the police said there are about 20 dead including at least 10 children.

Something like 100 rounds sounds like an accurate estimate.

ETA: R.Mackey, why would you take early reports of the number and type of weapons used as reliable but any other information so reported as "speculation"?

Because reporting early and confused reports doesn't help. There's no reason why we can't wait a little bit.

Other "witness quotes" have mentioned two shooters and fully automatic weapons. Neither of those, I trust you'll allow, are likely to be found true when this is sorted out.

Again, our thoughts should be with the victims. Just calm it down.

NoahFence · 14th December 2012, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

You know, I'd have thought that by now people on this forum were accustomed enough to your style of black irony to understand this post, but apparently not.

Rolfe.

I didn't read it all the way through... my bad.

Sorry Cain

malicus · 14th December 2012, 10:22 AM

BBC reporting 18 children dead.

*sigh*

Cain · 14th December 2012, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by DDWW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Pure evil. And I bet there were laws against bombs, just as I'm sure this school was a gun-free zone. See, when you "outlaw guns, only outlaws will..." As a wise man on this forum once wrote in a comparable incident: "This senseless tragedy could have been averted if the government didn't make illegal for children to have guns."

Professor Yaffle · 14th December 2012, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Delscottio

Sure fire way of getting some attention / infamy is all I can think of? I can't really blame the media but it would be nice if they didn't report these events in such a dramatic fashion.

Its become "the thing you do" when you are angry/alienated etc etc and want attention. The best thing we can do is switch off our TVs and pay it as little attention as possible. If we don't we are just as responsible as "the media" for the next one.

JoeTheJuggler · 14th December 2012, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost

There are fire alarms and escape routes with plans, don't make a ridiculous comparison and then draw a conclusion from it as if it were legit.

I took Cain's post as tongue in cheek. (Or is there a 2nd Amendment individual right for anyone to keep and carry hand grenades?*)

If not, he's only arguing against a strawman position, soundly defeating the position that all guns should be banned.

*Substitute for "hand grenades" chemical, biological or nuclear arms. A point I like to make is that nowhere does the 2nd Amendment mention "guns" or "firearms". Since everyone, I think, admits that there is not an unlimited right of individuals to own chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, I think everyone recognizes that whatever the individual right the 2nd Amendment creates, it may be weighed against legitimate state interests such as public safety.

ravdin · 14th December 2012, 10:25 AM

I'll gladly argue about gun control in a civil manner on another day, but right now I'm too overwhelmed with horror at the situation.

Sabretooth · 14th December 2012, 10:29 AM

I am pro-gun as well. However, actions such as this...where a man walks into a KIDS school and starts firing away...it isn't about the guns.

This guy wanted to go out in a demon-blaze and you'd be hard pressed to make me believe he wouldn't have found another weapon(s) to make sure it happened.

JoeTheJuggler · 14th December 2012, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by R.Mackey

Because reporting early and confused reports doesn't help. There's no reason why we can't wait a little bit.

Other "witness quotes" have mentioned two shooters and fully automatic weapons. Neither of those, I trust you'll allow, are likely to be found true when this is sorted out.

None of the statements I made (in question) were "speculation". And in fact, as I've shown, the witness statement I repeated is reasonable in the light of the statement from law enforcement.

But again, how is it that you found early reports of the two guns in use to be reliable but other reports to be mere "speculation"?

[ETA: FWIW, the sources I was following as the story broke did not include any statement about there being two shooters using fully automatic weapons. I'm not sure where you heard that.]

Quote:

Again, our thoughts should be with the victims. Just calm it down.

I have room in my mind to process thoughts in addition to feeling sympathy for the victims.

And I am calm, thank you.

malicus · 14th December 2012, 10:34 AM

double postage

R.Mackey · 14th December 2012, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

None of the statements I made were "speculation". And in fact, as I've shown, the witness statement I repeated is reasonable in the light of the statement from law enforcement.

But again, how is it that you found early reports of the two guns in use to be reliable but other reports to be mere "speculation"?

[ETA: FWIW, the sources I was following as the story broke did not include any statement about there being two shooters using fully automatic weapons. I'm not sure where you heard that.]

I have room in my mind to process thoughts in addition to feeling sympathy for the victims.

And I am calm, thank you.

Expecting a witness involved to reliably count shots to over 100 is unrealistic. Reminds me of certain folks who think a 757 didn't hit the Pentagon on 9/11 because of where some people on the ground thought it flew.

I've heard all kinds of wild speculation. So it goes in the Twitter era. Don't fall for it. We will get our answers.

IDB87 · 14th December 2012, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by malicus

double postage

Simply awful.

Sunstealer · 14th December 2012, 10:42 AM

Back in July everyone was horrified with the shooting in that cinema. In 6 months or sometime next year there will be another one. This is simply the price Americans are more than willing to pay to uphold their constitutional rights.

Cain · 14th December 2012, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Sabretooth

This guy wanted to go out in a demon-blaze and you'd be hard pressed to make me believe he wouldn't have found another weapon(s) to make sure it happened.

And it's critical that he would have killed just as many people. He could've used anything -- a hunting knife, scissors, plastic bags...

Doctor Plop · 14th December 2012, 10:43 AM

Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people.

Architect · 14th December 2012, 10:45 AM

It's all over the Beeb in realtime. Word fail me, although "sick" keeps coming to mind.

Monketey Ghost · 14th December 2012, 10:46 AM

I don't think I'll post in this thread or read the story or pursue thinking about it anymore because I just read the first paragraph of the story and it turned my stomach. This was horrific.

Redtail · 14th December 2012, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by malicus

BBC reporting 18 children dead.

*sigh*

Yep...

ToddH · 14th December 2012, 10:52 AM

I'm the father of a five year old in kindergarten and I'm in tears at the moment. Unimaginable.

Quad4_72 · 14th December 2012, 10:52 AM

Unfathomable. Are people born with that kind of evil, or is it something they learned through their upbringing? I have an elementary school aged child, and I can't even imagine...

Travis · 14th December 2012, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by R.Mackey

I believe it can.

However, when threads on the topic begin with speculation about the other side, strawmanning, and well-poisoning, the odds decrease precipitously.

Our thoughts at the moment should be with the victims. It's an old discussion, it can wait for a few hours at least.

Well that was actually what I was hoping to ironically highlight at the time. Now I think that is overshadowed by events. See below.

Originally Posted by ravdin

I'll gladly argue about gun control in a civil manner on another day, but right now I'm too overwhelmed with horror at the situation.

When I started this thread they were reporting that only the shooter was dead, likely at the hands of police. My biggest indignation at the time was really the statement that elementary schools don't have bullying.

I go, rake leaves out of the gutter then come back to watch what is up and see maybe twenty kids are dead. And this is a K-4 school.

Now I'm ashamed at starting this all off the way I did.

Granted we will have to deal with the social situation questions one day. We need to be able to have an adult sit down and talk about where we really want our society to lead. Do we really want to keep tolerating these tragedies in order to protect what might be an outmoded concept of individual rights? Can we consider massacres like this a tragedy of the commons only properly addressed by giving up some of those rights?

One day we will have to really and earnestly tackle those questions. We can't avoid them forever. For the moment we have innocent lives to mourn and children to bury.

IDB87 · 14th December 2012, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Cain

And it's critical that he would have killed just as many people. He could've used anything -- a hunting knife, scissors, plastic bags...

Deadpan humor aside, this exactly.

There is a reason why guns are used over any other instrument. The sooner we drop this "Well they could have used ANYTHING" argument, the sooner we can have an actual discussion.

scarlettinlondon · 14th December 2012, 10:59 AM

[quote=travis;8844599

granted we will have to deal with the social situation questions one day. We need to be able to have an adult sit down and talk about where we really want our society to lead. Do we really want to keep tolerating these tragedies in order to protect what might be an outmoded concept of individual rights? Can we consider massacres like this a tragedy of the commons only properly addressed by giving up some of those rights?

One day we will have to really and earnestly tackle those questions. We can't avoid them forever. For the moment we have innocent lives to mourn and children to bury.[/quote]

this

SumDood · 14th December 2012, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by ToddH

I'm the father of a five year old in kindergarten and I'm in tears at the moment. Unimaginable.

Ditto. I'm about to leave work early just to go pick up my boys from school and give them each an hour long hug.

fuelair · 14th December 2012, 11:01 AM

Meanwhile, in other news today: http://www.voanews.com/content/man-s...l/1564820.html

scarlettinlondon · 14th December 2012, 11:01 AM

We don't have the right in the UK to carry a gun

You can get a gun if you have a legitimate use for it, hunting, or farming

We don't miss it because we've not had that right for generations.

You'll get used to it, and it will be better

AdMan · 14th December 2012, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

Granted we will have to deal with the social situation questions one day. We need to be able to have an adult sit down and talk about where we really want our society to lead. Do we really want to keep tolerating these tragedies in order to protect what might be an outmoded concept of individual rights? Can we consider massacres like this a tragedy of the commons only properly addressed by giving up some of those rights?

One day we will have to really and earnestly tackle those questions. We can't avoid them forever. For the moment we have innocent lives to mourn and children to bury.

Well put, Travis. Thanks.

marplots · 14th December 2012, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by fuelair

Meanwhile, in other news today: http://www.voanews.com/content/man-s...l/1564820.html

Yeah.
We don't have to invoke anything other than math here.

There are over 300 million of us in the US. We are the third most populous nation on the planet. If just one in ten million is crazy enough and evil enough to do this stuff, that's still 30 incidents.

Now serving number 10.

The Nimble Pianist · 14th December 2012, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by fuelair

Meanwhile, in other news today: http://www.voanews.com/content/man-s...l/1564820.html

And this is relevant how?

Quote:

Chinese state media say a man stabbed 22 children and an adult at an elementary school in central China on Friday.

The official Xinhua news agency says the knife-wielding man attacked the children outside a school in Chenpeng village in Henan province. It said the children, whose ages are not known, suffered non-life-threatening injuries.

smartcooky · 14th December 2012, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Cain

STOP confusing the issue. FACT is he could've killed just as many people with darts or ninja stars!

I call Bull!!

One man standing 60 feet from a group of 10 people can shoot and kill all of them with a fully loaded M16 or L1A1 before they have any chance of escape. That cannot be done with a knife.

I have no objection to people owning guns. Many people in this country own them, but they have to get a Firearms Licence first. for this they need
three documents that prove identity (passport, birth certificate, drivers licence, Photo ID, credit card/bank card) and the two referees, one of which must be your spouse or next of kin, and the other must be someone who is over 20 years old and nota relative. You need to provide their full name, address, date of birth and phone number.

Then you have to pass a personal assessment to see if you are a fit and proper person to be allowed to have a firearm. The police will make this assessment (which includes and interview). Any applicant who fails one or more of the following will not be granted a licence.

has been subject to a protection order;
has shown disregard for the Arms Act or Arms Regulations, e.g. through a series of minor infractions;
has been involved in substance abuse;
has committed a serious criminal offence or any crimes involving violence or drugs;
is affiliated with a criminal gang;
has perpetrated acts or threats of domestic violence;
exhibits signs of mental ill health;
has attempted to commit suicide or displayed other self injurious behaviour.

Then they have to attend a Safety Lecture and pass a basic written test and finally, their firearms safety locker has to be inspected by a Police officer.

Guns are too easy to get in the USA. These kinds school and mass shooting incidents could be minimised with tighter gun control.

Biscuit · 14th December 2012, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Cain

Guns don't kill people; people kill people. This guy could've stacked a higher body count by setting the building on fire, so are we gonna outlaw matches and gasoline? What next, we gonna outlaw grenades?? Don't be ridiculous.

This is the dumbest thing any gun owner ever said. Of course guns kill people. That there are many ways of killing people does not negate the fact that guns are created for one purpose and one purpose only: TO KILL.

When us gun owner, yes I own guns, say this **** it absolves us of the responsibility of ownership of such a killing implement. We need to stop screaming about the right to own guns, cold dead hands, and spoons make people fat and start taking responsibility for our weapons and have an honest conversation about what guns are, what they do, and what it means to live in an armed society. Until we stop this "guns don't kill" ******** we will never have an honest discussion.

If matches and gasoline are such an awesome and effective weapon why don't people carry them around concealed under their coat to stop a mugger? If matches and gasoline are so effective why don't I keep them next to my bed in case of a break in? Knock it off.

The Central Scrutinizer · 14th December 2012, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost

Random nuts in a gun culture with easy access to guns. It's not something predictable though or easily stopped.

If those kindergarteners were armed, they could have defended themselves.

JoeTheJuggler · 14th December 2012, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by R.Mackey

Expecting a witness involved to reliably count shots to over 100 is unrealistic.

I have no such expectation. Do you? I think somewhere around 100 is probably credible though. I don't think the witness claims to have counted them or to be giving an exact count.

Quote:

I've heard all kinds of wild speculation.

The witness statement that something like 100 rounds were fired isn't wild speculation.

ETA: http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t1#...y-shooting.cnn

IDB87 · 14th December 2012, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Biscuit

This is the dumbest thing any gun owner ever said.

Have you read any of Cain's posts before this one?

Mister Earl · 14th December 2012, 11:09 AM

I still can't believe it. What the heck...

Someone take the game out of the universal console and scrub the back of the disc with a brillo pad.

NOBODY WANTS TO PLAY EVER AGAIN.

JoeTheJuggler · 14th December 2012, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Cain

STOP confusing the issue. FACT is he could've killed just as many people with darts or ninja stars!

I'm still not sure if you're being sincere or are parodying arguments.

GeeMack · 14th December 2012, 11:13 AM

Looks like they've found one of the shooter's parents, apparently murdered in their home in New Jersey this morning.

14th December 2012, 10:17 AM	#41
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,728	Originally Posted by R.Mackey Out of two service pistols?? Let's not join the speculation, guys. I wasn't speculating. I was repeating a witness quote from a reputable news outlet. At the press conference, the police said there are about 20 dead including at least 10 children. Something like 100 rounds sounds like an accurate estimate. ETA: R.Mackey, why would you take early reports of the number and type of weapons used as reliable but any other information so reported as "speculation"?
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons Last edited by JoeTheJuggler; 14th December 2012 at 10:19 AM.

14th December 2012, 10:18 AM	#42
DDWW Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 471	Originally Posted by Cain Guns don't kill people; people kill people. This guy could've stacked a higher body count by setting the building on fire, so are we gonna outlaw matches and gasoline? What next, we gonna outlaw grenades?? Don't be ridiculous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster Unfortunately, crazy people find ways. My prayers for them. DDWW
DDWW Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 471

14th December 2012, 10:19 AM	#43
Delscottio Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 808	Originally Posted by Agatha Terrible news. I cannot fathom what could make a person take a gun into a school full of young children. Sure fire way of getting some attention / infamy is all I can think of? I can't really blame the media but it would be nice if they didn't report these events in such a dramatic fashion.
Delscottio Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 808

14th December 2012, 10:21 AM	#44
R.Mackey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The armpit of L.A. Posts: 7,857	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler I wasn't speculating. I was repeating a witness quote from a reputable news outlet. At the press conference, the police said there are about 20 dead including at least 10 children. Something like 100 rounds sounds like an accurate estimate. ETA: R.Mackey, why would you take early reports of the number and type of weapons used as reliable but any other information so reported as "speculation"? Because reporting early and confused reports doesn't help. There's no reason why we can't wait a little bit. Other "witness quotes" have mentioned two shooters and fully automatic weapons. Neither of those, I trust you'll allow, are likely to be found true when this is sorted out. Again, our thoughts should be with the victims. Just calm it down.
	__________________ "Nothing real can defeat us. Nothing unreal exists." -B. Banzai VT VENIANT OMNES

14th December 2012, 10:21 AM	#45
NoahFence Psycho Kitty Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Patriot Nation Posts: 9,311	Originally Posted by Rolfe You know, I'd have thought that by now people on this forum were accustomed enough to your style of black irony to understand this post, but apparently not. Rolfe. I didn't read it all the way through... my bad. Sorry Cain
	__________________ Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake. -Henry David Thoreau

14th December 2012, 10:22 AM	#46
malicus Muse Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 689	BBC reporting 18 children dead. sigh
malicus Muse Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 689

14th December 2012, 10:24 AM	#47
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,935	Originally Posted by DDWW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster Pure evil. And I bet there were laws against bombs, just as I'm sure this school was a gun-free zone. See, when you "outlaw guns, only outlaws will..." As a wise man on this forum once wrote in a comparable incident: "This senseless tragedy could have been averted if the government didn't make illegal for children to have guns."
	__________________ *Arrested Development* is coming back! Michael (to GOB): Get rid of the Seaward. Lucille: I’ll leave when I’m good and ready. Last edited by Cain; 14th December 2012 at 10:31 AM.

14th December 2012, 10:24 AM	#48
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,337	Originally Posted by Delscottio Sure fire way of getting some attention / infamy is all I can think of? I can't really blame the media but it would be nice if they didn't report these events in such a dramatic fashion. Its become "the thing you do" when you are angry/alienated etc etc and want attention. The best thing we can do is switch off our TVs and pay it as little attention as possible. If we don't we are just as responsible as "the media" for the next one.
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat

14th December 2012, 10:25 AM	#49
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,728	Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost There are fire alarms and escape routes with plans, don't make a ridiculous comparison and then draw a conclusion from it as if it were legit. I took Cain's post as tongue in cheek. (Or is there a 2nd Amendment individual right for anyone to keep and carry hand grenades?) If not, he's only arguing against a strawman position, soundly defeating the position that all guns should be banned. Substitute for "hand grenades" chemical, biological or nuclear arms. A point I like to make is that nowhere does the 2nd Amendment mention "guns" or "firearms". Since everyone, I think, admits that there is not an unlimited right of individuals to own chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, I think everyone recognizes that whatever the individual right the 2nd Amendment creates, it may be weighed against legitimate state interests such as public safety.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

14th December 2012, 10:25 AM	#50
ravdin Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 3,556	I'll gladly argue about gun control in a civil manner on another day, but right now I'm too overwhelmed with horror at the situation.
	__________________ If wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak. -Jayne Cobb Believe what you're told. There would be chaos if everyone thought for themselves. -Top Dog slogan

14th December 2012, 10:29 AM	#51
Sabretooth No Ordinary Rabbit Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Wyoming, NY Posts: 6,149	I am pro-gun as well. However, actions such as this...where a man walks into a KIDS school and starts firing away...it isn't about the guns. This guy wanted to go out in a demon-blaze and you'd be hard pressed to make me believe he wouldn't have found another weapon(s) to make sure it happened.
	__________________ -------------------------------------- Stop asking me about that stupid fruity cereal...that's the OTHER rabbit!

14th December 2012, 10:33 AM	#52
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,728	Originally Posted by R.Mackey Because reporting early and confused reports doesn't help. There's no reason why we can't wait a little bit. Other "witness quotes" have mentioned two shooters and fully automatic weapons. Neither of those, I trust you'll allow, are likely to be found true when this is sorted out. None of the statements I made (in question) were "speculation". And in fact, as I've shown, the witness statement I repeated is reasonable in the light of the statement from law enforcement. But again, how is it that you found early reports of the two guns in use to be reliable but other reports to be mere "speculation"? [ETA: FWIW, the sources I was following as the story broke did not include any statement about there being two shooters using fully automatic weapons. I'm not sure where you heard that.] Quote: Again, our thoughts should be with the victims. Just calm it down. I have room in my mind to process thoughts in addition to feeling sympathy for the victims. And I am calm, thank you.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons Last edited by JoeTheJuggler; 14th December 2012 at 10:37 AM.

14th December 2012, 10:34 AM	#53
malicus Muse Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 689	double postage
malicus Muse Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 689	Last edited by malicus; 14th December 2012 at 10:42 AM. Reason: posting snafu

14th December 2012, 10:39 AM	#54
R.Mackey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The armpit of L.A. Posts: 7,857	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler None of the statements I made were "speculation". And in fact, as I've shown, the witness statement I repeated is reasonable in the light of the statement from law enforcement. But again, how is it that you found early reports of the two guns in use to be reliable but other reports to be mere "speculation"? [ETA: FWIW, the sources I was following as the story broke did not include any statement about there being two shooters using fully automatic weapons. I'm not sure where you heard that.] I have room in my mind to process thoughts in addition to feeling sympathy for the victims. And I am calm, thank you. Expecting a witness involved to reliably count shots to over 100 is unrealistic. Reminds me of certain folks who think a 757 didn't hit the Pentagon on 9/11 because of where some people on the ground thought it flew. I've heard all kinds of wild speculation. So it goes in the Twitter era. Don't fall for it. We will get our answers.
	__________________ "Nothing real can defeat us. Nothing unreal exists." -B. Banzai VT VENIANT OMNES

14th December 2012, 10:42 AM	#55
IDB87 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: In the Grass Posts: 3,414	Originally Posted by malicus double postage Simply awful.
	__________________ It's guaranteed I'm overreacting.

14th December 2012, 10:42 AM	#56
Sunstealer Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,596	Back in July everyone was horrified with the shooting in that cinema. In 6 months or sometime next year there will be another one. This is simply the price Americans are more than willing to pay to uphold their constitutional rights.
	__________________ Proof that thermite was NOT discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe. Proof of Tnemec red primer paint in Harrit et al paper.

14th December 2012, 10:42 AM	#57
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,935	Originally Posted by Sabretooth This guy wanted to go out in a demon-blaze and you'd be hard pressed to make me believe he wouldn't have found another weapon(s) to make sure it happened. And it's critical that he would have killed just as many people. He could've used anything -- a hunting knife, scissors, plastic bags...
	__________________ *Arrested Development* is coming back! Michael (to GOB): Get rid of the Seaward. Lucille: I’ll leave when I’m good and ready.

14th December 2012, 10:43 AM	#58
Doctor Plop Suspended Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Breathing on your back Posts: 191	Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people.

14th December 2012, 10:45 AM	#59
Architect Chief Punkah Wallah Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: UK Posts: 8,478	It's all over the Beeb in realtime. Word fail me, although "sick" keeps coming to mind.
	__________________ When the men elected to make laws are but a small part of a foreign parliament, that is when all healthy national feeling dies. James Keir Hardie (1856 - 1915): Politician, Founder of Scottish Labour Party

14th December 2012, 10:46 AM	#60
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807	stunned I don't think I'll post in this thread or read the story or pursue thinking about it anymore because I just read the first paragraph of the story and it turned my stomach. This was horrific.
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

14th December 2012, 10:49 AM	#61
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	Originally Posted by malicus BBC reporting 18 children dead. sigh Yep...
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	__________________ AVENGERS!!!.. Turn off the dark!

14th December 2012, 10:52 AM	#62
ToddH Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Heart of the bible belt Posts: 334	I'm the father of a five year old in kindergarten and I'm in tears at the moment. Unimaginable.

14th December 2012, 10:52 AM	#63
Quad4_72 AI-EE-YAH! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: USA Posts: 5,830	Unfathomable. Are people born with that kind of evil, or is it something they learned through their upbringing? I have an elementary school aged child, and I can't even imagine...
	__________________ Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken

14th December 2012, 10:55 AM	#64
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,938	Originally Posted by R.Mackey I believe it can. However, when threads on the topic begin with speculation about the other side, strawmanning, and well-poisoning, the odds decrease precipitously. Our thoughts at the moment should be with the victims. It's an old discussion, it can wait for a few hours at least. Well that was actually what I was hoping to ironically highlight at the time. Now I think that is overshadowed by events. See below. Originally Posted by ravdin I'll gladly argue about gun control in a civil manner on another day, but right now I'm too overwhelmed with horror at the situation. When I started this thread they were reporting that only the shooter was dead, likely at the hands of police. My biggest indignation at the time was really the statement that elementary schools don't have bullying. I go, rake leaves out of the gutter then come back to watch what is up and see maybe twenty kids are dead. And this is a K-4 school. Now I'm ashamed at starting this all off the way I did. Granted we will have to deal with the social situation questions one day. We need to be able to have an adult sit down and talk about where we really want our society to lead. Do we really want to keep tolerating these tragedies in order to protect what might be an outmoded concept of individual rights? Can we consider massacres like this a tragedy of the commons only properly addressed by giving up some of those rights? One day we will have to really and earnestly tackle those questions. We can't avoid them forever. For the moment we have innocent lives to mourn and children to bury.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

14th December 2012, 10:57 AM	#65
IDB87 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: In the Grass Posts: 3,414	Originally Posted by Cain And it's critical that he would have killed just as many people. He could've used anything -- a hunting knife, scissors, plastic bags... Deadpan humor aside, this exactly. There is a reason why guns are used over any other instrument. The sooner we drop this "Well they could have used ANYTHING" argument, the sooner we can have an actual discussion.
	__________________ It's guaranteed I'm overreacting.

14th December 2012, 10:59 AM	#66
scarlettinlondon Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 193	[quote=travis;8844599 granted we will have to deal with the social situation questions one day. We need to be able to have an adult sit down and talk about where we really want our society to lead. Do we really want to keep tolerating these tragedies in order to protect what might be an outmoded concept of individual rights? Can we consider massacres like this a tragedy of the commons only properly addressed by giving up some of those rights? One day we will have to really and earnestly tackle those questions. We can't avoid them forever. For the moment we have innocent lives to mourn and children to bury.[/quote] this
scarlettinlondon Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 193

14th December 2012, 10:59 AM	#67
SumDood Muse Join Date: May 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 706	Originally Posted by ToddH I'm the father of a five year old in kindergarten and I'm in tears at the moment. Unimaginable. Ditto. I'm about to leave work early just to go pick up my boys from school and give them each an hour long hug.
	__________________ All that is necessary for ignorance to triumph is for intelligent men to do nothing.

14th December 2012, 11:01 AM	#68
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,911	Meanwhile, in other news today: http://www.voanews.com/content/man-s...l/1564820.html
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,911	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

14th December 2012, 11:01 AM	#70
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,168	Originally Posted by Travis Granted we will have to deal with the social situation questions one day. We need to be able to have an adult sit down and talk about where we really want our society to lead. Do we really want to keep tolerating these tragedies in order to protect what might be an outmoded concept of individual rights? Can we consider massacres like this a tragedy of the commons only properly addressed by giving up some of those rights? One day we will have to really and earnestly tackle those questions. We can't avoid them forever. For the moment we have innocent lives to mourn and children to bury. Well put, Travis. Thanks.
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,168	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

14th December 2012, 11:04 AM	#71
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,381	Originally Posted by fuelair Meanwhile, in other news today: http://www.voanews.com/content/man-s...l/1564820.html Yeah. We don't have to invoke anything other than math here. There are over 300 million of us in the US. We are the third most populous nation on the planet. If just one in ten million is crazy enough and evil enough to do this stuff, that's still 30 incidents. Now serving number 10.
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,381

14th December 2012, 11:05 AM	#72
The Nimble Pianist Muse Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: USA Posts: 606	Originally Posted by fuelair Meanwhile, in other news today: http://www.voanews.com/content/man-s...l/1564820.html And this is relevant how? Quote: Chinese state media say a man stabbed 22 children and an adult at an elementary school in central China on Friday. The official Xinhua news agency says the knife-wielding man attacked the children outside a school in Chenpeng village in Henan province. It said the children, whose ages are not known, suffered non-life-threatening injuries.
	__________________

14th December 2012, 11:05 AM	#73
smartcooky Muse Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 892	Originally Posted by Cain STOP confusing the issue. FACT is he could've killed just as many people with darts or ninja stars! I call Bull!! One man standing 60 feet from a group of 10 people can shoot and kill all of them with a fully loaded M16 or L1A1 before they have any chance of escape. That cannot be done with a knife. I have no objection to people owning guns. Many people in this country own them, but they have to get a Firearms Licence first. for this they need three documents that prove identity (passport, birth certificate, drivers licence, Photo ID, credit card/bank card) and the two referees, one of which must be your spouse or next of kin, and the other must be someone who is over 20 years old and nota relative. You need to provide their full name, address, date of birth and phone number. Then you have to pass a personal assessment to see if you are a fit and proper person to be allowed to have a firearm. The police will make this assessment (which includes and interview). Any applicant who fails one or more of the following will not be granted a licence. has been subject to a protection order; has shown disregard for the Arms Act or Arms Regulations, e.g. through a series of minor infractions; has been involved in substance abuse; has committed a serious criminal offence or any crimes involving violence or drugs; is affiliated with a criminal gang; has perpetrated acts or threats of domestic violence; exhibits signs of mental ill health; has attempted to commit suicide or displayed other self injurious behaviour. Then they have to attend a Safety Lecture and pass a basic written test and finally, their firearms safety locker has to be inspected by a Police officer. Guns are too easy to get in the USA. These kinds school and mass shooting incidents could be minimised with tighter gun control.
	__________________ _{“The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.” - George Orwell}

14th December 2012, 11:08 AM	#74
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,767	Originally Posted by Cain Guns don't kill people; people kill people. This guy could've stacked a higher body count by setting the building on fire, so are we gonna outlaw matches and gasoline? What next, we gonna outlaw grenades?? Don't be ridiculous. This is the dumbest thing any gun owner ever said. Of course guns kill people. That there are many ways of killing people does not negate the fact that guns are created for one purpose and one purpose only: TO KILL. When us gun owner, yes I own guns, say this ** it absolves us of the responsibility of ownership of such a killing implement. We need to stop screaming about the right to own guns, cold dead hands, and spoons make people fat and start taking responsibility for our weapons and have an honest conversation about what guns are, what they do, and what it means to live in an armed society. Until we stop this "guns don't kill" ****** we will never have an honest discussion. If matches and gasoline are such an awesome and effective weapon why don't people carry them around concealed under their coat to stop a mugger? If matches and gasoline are so effective why don't I keep them next to my bed in case of a break in? Knock it off.
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,767	__________________ “... there is no shame in not knowing. The problem arises when irrational thought and attendant behavior fill the vacuum left by ignorance.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

14th December 2012, 11:08 AM	#75
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,266	Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost Random nuts in a gun culture with easy access to guns. It's not something predictable though or easily stopped. If those kindergarteners were armed, they could have defended themselves.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

14th December 2012, 11:08 AM	#76
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,728	Originally Posted by R.Mackey Expecting a witness involved to reliably count shots to over 100 is unrealistic. I have no such expectation. Do you? I think somewhere around 100 is probably credible though. I don't think the witness claims to have counted them or to be giving an exact count. Quote: I've heard all kinds of wild speculation. The witness statement that something like 100 rounds were fired isn't wild speculation. ETA: http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t1#...y-shooting.cnn
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons Last edited by JoeTheJuggler; 14th December 2012 at 11:14 AM.