School shooting: but don't mention guns! - Page 5

fuelair · 14th December 2012, 12:34 PM

OOps, it's brother was killed. It's father is somewhere else (divorce apparently) and apparently un-killed.

scarlettinlondon · 14th December 2012, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

"After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military." - William Burroughs

I don't consider WB to be an authority on this subject

Delscottio · 14th December 2012, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

I don't consider WB to be an authority on this subject

It's also inaccurate for the vast majority of societies on earth - including the UK.

The Central Scrutinizer · 14th December 2012, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

OOps, it's brother was killed. It's father is somewhere else (divorce apparently) and apparently un-killed.

And the girlfriend is missing? But I wonder how they classify "missing"? At any point in time most days, I'm "missing" to everyone who doesn't know where I am.

Ziggurat · 14th December 2012, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

I don't consider WB to be an authority on this subject

I'm quoting him because his words convey the message compactly and effectively, not because he's an authority. If you have any objection to the substance of the quote, feel free to offer them.

scarlettinlondon · 14th December 2012, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I'd say the central problem isn't that guns are available but that help for mental illness isn't. Not easily, anyway, and not cheaply. "Crazy person slaughters fifty with axe!" headline says to me "fix the crazies" not "destroy the axes".

hmmm
to me it says disarm the fool. Then we'll talk about his early childhood issues with his mother

scarlettinlondon · 14th December 2012, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I'm quoting him because his words convey the message compactly and effectively, not because he's an authority. If you have any objection to the substance of the quote, feel free to offer them.

No objection to hearing his views.

I would differ. I would prefer to live in a country where only the police and the military have guns that one where everyone, including the crazies have access to guns

AdMan · 14th December 2012, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

I don't consider WB to be an authority on this subject

He's a particularly poor choice to quote on the subject.

TragicMonkey · 14th December 2012, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

hmmm
to me it says disarm the fool. Then we'll talk about his early childhood issues with his mother

So, let's wait until crazy people get actively murderous before supplying any treatment. Sounds cost effective!

Ben Adams · 14th December 2012, 12:40 PM

This person was deranged he is not normal he is dangerous and I can assure you that there are going to be people who come forward and say this person was THIS or THAT. You dont wake up and do something like this, it takes time and hardship to arrive at deciding that is the right thing to do. People around you know something isn't right. There is much that be done to stop this from happening as much as it does, which by the way, ISNT MUCH...

fuelair · 14th December 2012, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Biscuit

Or if as a society we treated guns as more of a responsibility and less of right. If we could just admit that guns do kill people.

I freely state, agree with and acknowledge the following as facts which I do not recall ever in any previous post or thought disagreeing with:

1. Guns can and do kill people (with gigantic and necessary help from the person pulling their trigger).

2. Guns are a responsibility - a great and important one.

3. Guns are a right (see US Constitution for clarification as needed).

.

Biscuit · 14th December 2012, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

I want to say this.

It is my view that gun ownership for civilians is AT LEAST partially responsible for this tragedy.

Any country that allows gun ownership for civilians is being wilfully blind to their part of the blame

English people feel no less free for not being allowed to carry/own guns

We don't have the freedom to carry guns

We don't have the freedom to fear this kind of tragedy

We don't have to train our children in schools what to do if there is a gunman in the building.

Ban guns. You won't regret it

You had me up until the last line. I don't want to ban guns.

It tough to explain my relationship with fire arms - It's one of deep reverence. I don't think most gun owners in america take it seriously and instead they look at their guns as toys and say stupid things like "Guns don't kill people!" If I have one hot button that really sets me off its gun owners that say that - especially in the wake of an event like this. At all cost defend the weapons! Won't somebody please think of the weapons!

LashL · 14th December 2012, 12:41 PM

Meanwhile, the fellow whose face and Facebook photo are being plastered all over the Internet as the shooter is saying it wasn't him, and obviously it cannot be him if he's alive and updating his Facebook page (although I have read that the page has since been taken down).

http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...nzas-facebook/

Man, I'd hate to have a common name at a time like this.

LTC8K6 · 14th December 2012, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

hmmm
to me it says disarm the fool. Then we'll talk about his early childhood issues with his mother

Sure, but why disarm me in the process?

Ben Adams · 14th December 2012, 12:42 PM

Interesting use of the language. Are you unfamiliar with what "few" means

Of course I do, and with over 350,000,000 people, 500 is a FEW..........

Ziggurat · 14th December 2012, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Delscottio

It's also inaccurate for the vast majority of societies on earth - including the UK.

But it is an accurate description of what scarlettinlondon wants, and what I responded to:

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

Ban guns. You won't regret it

jj · 14th December 2012, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

I'm still not sure if you're being sincere or are parodying arguments.

He's just raising Cain.

Biscuit · 14th December 2012, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

I freely state, agree with and acknowledge the following as facts which I do not recall ever in any previous post or thought disagreeing with:

1. Guns can and do kill people (with gigantic and necessary help from the person pulling their trigger).

2. Guns are a responsibility - a great and important one.

3. Guns are a right (see US Constitution for clarification as needed).

.

I think you have stated those in the appropriate order of importance from greatest to least.

Delscottio · 14th December 2012, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by LashL

Meanwhile, the fellow whose face and Facebook photo are being plastered all over the Internet as the shooter is saying it wasn't him, and obviously it cannot be him if he's alive and updating his Facebook page as shown.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...nzas-facebook/

Man, I'd hate to have a common name at a time like this.

Nice of them to plaster the photo a few more times! Poor bugger.

scarlettinlondon · 14th December 2012, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

So, let's wait until crazy people get actively murderous before supplying any treatment. Sounds cost effective!

Not at all.

Treatment should be available to those who need it.

Guns should not be freely available to those who want them.

If this fool had had a knife rather than a gun there would have been many more survivors

leftysergeant · 14th December 2012, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Guns are too easy to get in the USA. These kinds school and mass shooting incidents could be minimised with tighter gun control.

The New Zealand qualificatiopn process looks reasonable, but I would add a little more hands-on training, like qualifying fire on every weapon you own.

Having to deal with people too get and keep a weapon is a protection against the occassional gun owner who doesn't have all his headbolts torqued right.

I have only read this far in the thread, but am willing to bet that this has something to do with domestic violence or cutody issues, seeing as how someone mentioned that the shooter's own son is dead.

DrDave · 14th December 2012, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by LashL

Meanwhile, the fellow whose face and Facebook photo are being plastered all over the Internet as the shooter is saying it wasn't him, and obviously it cannot be him if he's alive and updating his Facebook page (although I have read that the page has since been taken down).

http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...nzas-facebook/

Man, I'd hate to have a common name at a time like this.

But in good news he's now got Scrut as a new FB friend

scarlettinlondon · 14th December 2012, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

Sure, but why disarm me in the process?

because civilians don't need guns

you need food and shelter and education and medical care.

You don't need a gun as a civilian

Rairun · 14th December 2012, 12:45 PM

I don't mind all the talk about this, and I do think it's an incredibly unfortunate event, but the way some people are acting on twitter is annoying - telling others to stop talking about other subjects, saying no one should advertise their websites or businesses, etc. The world doesn't revolve around America or Americans.

jj · 14th December 2012, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Cain

It puzzles me why anyone would read story after story on this or watch continuous updates on the news. A bunch of kids were slaughtered. Some deranged ******* did it. Why invite that kind of darkness into your heart?

Wow, you just said something I agree with! No kidding!

BenBurch · 14th December 2012, 12:46 PM

Remind me again how handguns make us all safer?

Halfcentaur · 14th December 2012, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

I suspect the biggest factor in why these shootings have become almost commonplace in the US is the saturation media coverage (combined with relatively easy access to the means). I doubt the media (and the public it feeds on) will ever take this in and act upon it though.

http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/901518-aurora.pdf

I would agree and I think it's pretty clear by the way these events happen so closely to each other they are copy cat killings perpetuated by both our media's willingness to report on what will get them the most ratings and through our own need to find out as much as we can about the events.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

The first thing I thought of was this video this morning. And here it's happening all over again.

TragicMonkey · 14th December 2012, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

Not at all.

Treatment should be available to those who need it.

Guns should not be freely available to those who want them.

If this fool had had a knife rather than a gun there would have been many more survivors

And if he'd had a toothpick instead of a knife there would be even more survivors. I believe the best solution to problems is to treat their root cause, not just ameliorate the damage.

Polaris · 14th December 2012, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

because civilians don't need guns

you need food and shelter and education and medical care.

You don't need a gun as a civilian

So you ban everything that isn't on Maslow's Heirarchy?

AdMan · 14th December 2012, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by LashL

Meanwhile, the fellow whose face and Facebook photo are being plastered all over the Internet as the shooter is saying it wasn't him, and obviously it cannot be him if he's alive and updating his Facebook page (although I have read that the page has since been taken down).

http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...nzas-facebook/

Man, I'd hate to have a common name at a time like this.

Oh boy. Poor guy. Before his page was taken down, I could see the number of his friends plummet each time I reloaded the page.

NBC News is now saying that the name may not even be correct.

Shalamar · 14th December 2012, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Remind me again how handguns make us all safer?

I'm told for defense. I think they jump out of holsters and block bullets.

jj · 14th December 2012, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by timhau

Two words: Reality TV.

Several more words: Crazy tea party politicians, "2nd amendment remedies", preaching revolt if Obama wins, etc.

I am NOT even mildly intending to suggest the guy was on the lunatic right, of course, the POINT, despite any number of people who seek to deny it, mischaracterize it, or otherwise try to hide the fact, public figures, be they good or bad, who advocate things enable the unhinged of any kind, including the "just merely unhinged".

This kind of enablement and (I presume accidental, although sometimes I wonder) encouragement is part of the reason this happens.

A complete lack of mental health care for those under the top 5% of wealth is another problem.

Finally, the stigma attached to mental health care is the third problem.

Except for the politicians who have been speaking violence, this isn't something tied to one party or group of people. Well, the media and the intentional incitement of anger and hatred we see from them needs to be mentioned, as well.

Again, this isn't about political parties, it's about advocation of violence and/or anger.

Sabretooth · 14th December 2012, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

because civilians don't need guns

you need food and shelter and education and medical care.

You don't need a gun as a civilian

People don't "need" a lot of things. Including alcohol and cars. Yet that combination kills far more innocent folk than gun-toting lunatics...

Sorry, but as a very responsible gun owner, I should not have to give up my choice/right to own them because of some dick bag. That would be similar to me having to install an ignition breathalyzer in my car because my neighbor got a DWI.

scarlettinlondon · 14th December 2012, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

But it is an accurate description of what scarlettinlondon wants, and what I responded to:

I am very sorry for the families of these children and adults killed. I don't really have a dog in this fight as I live in a country where civilians don't carry guns and even the police do not routinely carry guns.

Therefore I live in a country where we don't go through this a great deal.

I am always amazed that otherwise thoughtful, intelligent and rational people (such as are represented here) are irrational when it comes to gun control by saying such things as 'it's our right'. I knw you have the legal right to carry and own guns. I know it's part of your constitution. It doesn't stop me from thinking that it's insanity to keep those laws in today's society.

Bizarre to me

Skeptic Ginger · 14th December 2012, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

Fake tears from a fake president.

So you're a Birther?

I too am wondering just when the gun discussion can be had. I suggest the Pres set a date instead of just saying now is not the time. BTW, I do believe Obama noted the conversation was overdue.

NoahFence · 14th December 2012, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by LashL

Meanwhile, the fellow whose face and Facebook photo are being plastered all over the Internet as the shooter is saying it wasn't him, and obviously it cannot be him if he's alive and updating his Facebook page (although I have read that the page has since been taken down).

http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...nzas-facebook/

Man, I'd hate to have a common name at a time like this.

His hometown was listed as the place of the shooting, and he lives in Jersey, and he's in his early 20s. It's a coincidence of monumental proportion if that isn't him. Even money says it's his brother updating his facebook page, not him.

ehcks · 14th December 2012, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

Ban guns. You won't regret it

I like hunting. I like venison. As long as we keep being dumb about wolves we have to hunt deer anyway.

So I'd like to at least keep hunting rifles and shotguns.

LTC8K6 · 14th December 2012, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

Not at all.

Treatment should be available to those who need it.

Guns should not be freely available to those who want them.

If this fool had had a knife rather than a gun there would have been many more survivors

I think a maniac who wanted to kill a bunch of kids would have just done something else if he couldn't use a gun.

A car is even easier to get, and you can mow down a lot of people with one, if you're crazy, or elderly...

A bomb is not that hard to make, especially if you're crazy and have time to plot and have internet access...

I just hate the idea of making a law based on what crazy people do or might do...

We had an "assault weapons" ban already, which did absolutely nothing,
except make it harder to get the exact rifle I wanted...didn't really ban anything capable of a massacre...

Somehow the way a rifle looks, makes it more deadly in some states still...
Or having to change a mag after 10 rounds somehow makes the gun safer...

I hope whatever law they come up with makes some sense, but I know it probably won't...

We will prob get a reissue of the Clinton "assault weapons" ban.

scarlettinlondon · 14th December 2012, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Sabretooth

People don't "need" a lot of things. Including alcohol and cars. Yet that combination kills far more innocent folk than gun-toting lunatics...

Sorry, but as a very responsible gun owner, I should not have to give up my choice/right to own them because of some dick bag. That would be similar to me having to install an ignition breathalyzer in my car because my neighbor got a DWI.

I think you should give up that right. I think you should voluntarily and with glee give up that right. I don't think your right to have a gun outweighs the rights of those children to life.

Before you say it, I know you didn't kill them. I am sure you are responsible.

Someone else wasn't. You sound to me like a child saying it wasn't my stone that broke the window, therefore mummy shouldn't have come and stopped me from throwing stones around the garden

Skeptic Ginger · 14th December 2012, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Delscottio

Too far gone with the number of guns out there....

That's possibly true, but often when these things unfold it turns out the guns used were newly acquired.

We should be able to limit the availability of needlessly large clips and at least decrease the numbers of dead in some of these tragedies.

14th December 2012, 12:34 PM	#161
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,936	OOps, it's brother was killed. It's father is somewhere else (divorce apparently) and apparently un-killed.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,936	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

14th December 2012, 12:34 PM	#162
scarlettinlondon Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 193	Originally Posted by Ziggurat "After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military." - William Burroughs I don't consider WB to be an authority on this subject
scarlettinlondon Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 193

14th December 2012, 12:35 PM	#163
Delscottio Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 808	Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon I don't consider WB to be an authority on this subject It's also inaccurate for the vast majority of societies on earth - including the UK.
Delscottio Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 808

14th December 2012, 12:37 PM	#164
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,275	Originally Posted by fuelair OOps, it's brother was killed. It's father is somewhere else (divorce apparently) and apparently un-killed. And the girlfriend is missing? But I wonder how they classify "missing"? At any point in time most days, I'm "missing" to everyone who doesn't know where I am.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

14th December 2012, 12:38 PM	#165
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,195	Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon I don't consider WB to be an authority on this subject I'm quoting him because his words convey the message compactly and effectively, not because he's an authority. If you have any objection to the substance of the quote, feel free to offer them.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

14th December 2012, 12:38 PM	#166
scarlettinlondon Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 193	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I'd say the central problem isn't that guns are available but that help for mental illness isn't. Not easily, anyway, and not cheaply. "Crazy person slaughters fifty with axe!" headline says to me "fix the crazies" not "destroy the axes". hmmm to me it says disarm the fool. Then we'll talk about his early childhood issues with his mother
scarlettinlondon Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 193

14th December 2012, 12:40 PM	#167
scarlettinlondon Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 193	Originally Posted by Ziggurat I'm quoting him because his words convey the message compactly and effectively, not because he's an authority. If you have any objection to the substance of the quote, feel free to offer them. No objection to hearing his views. I would differ. I would prefer to live in a country where only the police and the military have guns that one where everyone, including the crazies have access to guns
scarlettinlondon Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 193

14th December 2012, 12:40 PM	#168
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,167	Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon I don't consider WB to be an authority on this subject He's a particularly poor choice to quote on the subject.
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,167	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

14th December 2012, 12:40 PM	#169
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,080	Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon hmmm to me it says disarm the fool. Then we'll talk about his early childhood issues with his mother So, let's wait until crazy people get actively murderous before supplying any treatment. Sounds cost effective!
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

14th December 2012, 12:40 PM	#170
Ben Adams Muse Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Vieux Carré-Laissez les bons temps rouler! Posts: 661	This person was deranged he is not normal he is dangerous and I can assure you that there are going to be people who come forward and say this person was THIS or THAT. You dont wake up and do something like this, it takes time and hardship to arrive at deciding that is the right thing to do. People around you know something isn't right. There is much that be done to stop this from happening as much as it does, which by the way, ISNT MUCH...
	__________________ EY_E ^B_RING TH EE B^ACON

14th December 2012, 12:40 PM	#171
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,936	Originally Posted by Biscuit Or if as a society we treated guns as more of a responsibility and less of right. If we could just admit that guns do kill people. I freely state, agree with and acknowledge the following as facts which I do not recall ever in any previous post or thought disagreeing with: 1. Guns can and do kill people (with gigantic and necessary help from the person pulling their trigger). 2. Guns are a responsibility - a great and important one. 3. Guns are a right (see US Constitution for clarification as needed). .
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,936	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

14th December 2012, 12:41 PM	#172
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,768	Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon I want to say this. It is my view that gun ownership for civilians is AT LEAST partially responsible for this tragedy. Any country that allows gun ownership for civilians is being wilfully blind to their part of the blame English people feel no less free for not being allowed to carry/own guns We don't have the freedom to carry guns We don't have the freedom to fear this kind of tragedy We don't have to train our children in schools what to do if there is a gunman in the building. Ban guns. You won't regret it You had me up until the last line. I don't want to ban guns. It tough to explain my relationship with fire arms - It's one of deep reverence. I don't think most gun owners in america take it seriously and instead they look at their guns as toys and say stupid things like "Guns don't kill people!" If I have one hot button that really sets me off its gun owners that say that - especially in the wake of an event like this. At all cost defend the weapons! Won't somebody please think of the weapons!
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,768	__________________ “... there is no shame in not knowing. The problem arises when irrational thought and attendant behavior fill the vacuum left by ignorance.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

14th December 2012, 12:41 PM	#173
LashL Goddess of Legaltainment™ Administrator Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 26,224	Meanwhile, the fellow whose face and Facebook photo are being plastered all over the Internet as the shooter is saying it wasn't him, and obviously it cannot be him if he's alive and updating his Facebook page (although I have read that the page has since been taken down). http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...nzas-facebook/ Man, I'd hate to have a common name at a time like this.
	Last edited by LashL; 14th December 2012 at 12:43 PM.

14th December 2012, 12:42 PM	#174
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,661	Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon hmmm to me it says disarm the fool. Then we'll talk about his early childhood issues with his mother Sure, but why disarm me in the process?
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

14th December 2012, 12:42 PM	#175
Ben Adams Muse Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Vieux Carré-Laissez les bons temps rouler! Posts: 661	Interesting use of the language. Are you unfamiliar with what "few" means Of course I do, and with over 350,000,000 people, 500 is a FEW..........
	__________________ EY_E ^B_RING TH EE B^ACON

14th December 2012, 12:42 PM	#176
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,195	Originally Posted by Delscottio It's also inaccurate for the vast majority of societies on earth - including the UK. But it is an accurate description of what scarlettinlondon wants, and what I responded to: Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon Ban guns. You won't regret it
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

14th December 2012, 12:43 PM	#177
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,509	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler I'm still not sure if you're being sincere or are parodying arguments. He's just raising Cain.
	__________________ The Power to Quit

14th December 2012, 12:43 PM	#178
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,768	Originally Posted by fuelair I freely state, agree with and acknowledge the following as facts which I do not recall ever in any previous post or thought disagreeing with: 1. Guns can and do kill people (with gigantic and necessary help from the person pulling their trigger). 2. Guns are a responsibility - a great and important one. 3. Guns are a right (see US Constitution for clarification as needed). . I think you have stated those in the appropriate order of importance from greatest to least.
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,768	__________________ “... there is no shame in not knowing. The problem arises when irrational thought and attendant behavior fill the vacuum left by ignorance.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

14th December 2012, 12:43 PM	#179
Delscottio Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 808	Originally Posted by LashL Meanwhile, the fellow whose face and Facebook photo are being plastered all over the Internet as the shooter is saying it wasn't him, and obviously it cannot be him if he's alive and updating his Facebook page as shown. http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...nzas-facebook/ Man, I'd hate to have a common name at a time like this. Nice of them to plaster the photo a few more times! Poor bugger.
Delscottio Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 808

14th December 2012, 12:43 PM	#180
scarlettinlondon Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 193	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey So, let's wait until crazy people get actively murderous before supplying any treatment. Sounds cost effective! Not at all. Treatment should be available to those who need it. Guns should not be freely available to those who want them. If this fool had had a knife rather than a gun there would have been many more survivors
scarlettinlondon Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 193

14th December 2012, 12:44 PM	#181
leftysergeant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spanaway WA Posts: 18,613	Originally Posted by smartcooky Guns are too easy to get in the USA. These kinds school and mass shooting incidents could be minimised with tighter gun control. The New Zealand qualificatiopn process looks reasonable, but I would add a little more hands-on training, like qualifying fire on every weapon you own. Having to deal with people too get and keep a weapon is a protection against the occassional gun owner who doesn't have all his headbolts torqued right. I have only read this far in the thread, but am willing to bet that this has something to do with domestic violence or cutody issues, seeing as how someone mentioned that the shooter's own son is dead.
	__________________ No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.

14th December 2012, 12:44 PM	#182
DrDave Guest Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 3,110	Originally Posted by LashL Meanwhile, the fellow whose face and Facebook photo are being plastered all over the Internet as the shooter is saying it wasn't him, and obviously it cannot be him if he's alive and updating his Facebook page (although I have read that the page has since been taken down). http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...nzas-facebook/ Man, I'd hate to have a common name at a time like this. But in good news he's now got Scrut as a new FB friend

14th December 2012, 12:45 PM	#183
scarlettinlondon Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 193	Originally Posted by LTC8K6 Sure, but why disarm me in the process? because civilians don't need guns you need food and shelter and education and medical care. You don't need a gun as a civilian
scarlettinlondon Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 193

14th December 2012, 12:45 PM	#184
Rairun Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 479	I don't mind all the talk about this, and I do think it's an incredibly unfortunate event, but the way some people are acting on twitter is annoying - telling others to stop talking about other subjects, saying no one should advertise their websites or businesses, etc. The world doesn't revolve around America or Americans.
Rairun Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 479

14th December 2012, 12:45 PM	#185
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,509	Originally Posted by Cain It puzzles me why anyone would read story after story on this or watch continuous updates on the news. A bunch of kids were slaughtered. Some deranged ******* did it. Why invite that kind of darkness into your heart? Wow, you just said something I agree with! No kidding!
	__________________ The Power to Quit

14th December 2012, 12:46 PM	#186
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,145	Remind me again how handguns make us all safer?
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14th December 2012, 12:48 PM	#188
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,080	Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon Not at all. Treatment should be available to those who need it. Guns should not be freely available to those who want them. If this fool had had a knife rather than a gun there would have been many more survivors And if he'd had a toothpick instead of a knife there would be even more survivors. I believe the best solution to problems is to treat their root cause, not just ameliorate the damage.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

14th December 2012, 12:49 PM	#189
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,169	Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon because civilians don't need guns you need food and shelter and education and medical care. You don't need a gun as a civilian So you ban everything that isn't on Maslow's Heirarchy?
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,169	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Roy Moore of Alabama. The world would absolutely benefit by him being run over by any vehicle." - Lowpro

14th December 2012, 12:50 PM	#190
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,167	Originally Posted by LashL Meanwhile, the fellow whose face and Facebook photo are being plastered all over the Internet as the shooter is saying it wasn't him, and obviously it cannot be him if he's alive and updating his Facebook page (although I have read that the page has since been taken down). http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...nzas-facebook/ Man, I'd hate to have a common name at a time like this. Oh boy. Poor guy. Before his page was taken down, I could see the number of his friends plummet each time I reloaded the page. NBC News is now saying that the name may not even be correct.
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,167	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

14th December 2012, 12:50 PM	#191
Shalamar Dark Lord of the JREF Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Super Star Destroyer Executor Posts: 2,396	Originally Posted by BenBurch Remind me again how handguns make us all safer? I'm told for defense. I think they jump out of holsters and block bullets.
	__________________ "The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."

14th December 2012, 12:51 PM	#192
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,509	Originally Posted by timhau Two words: Reality TV. Several more words: Crazy tea party politicians, "2nd amendment remedies", preaching revolt if Obama wins, etc. I am NOT even mildly intending to suggest the guy was on the lunatic right, of course, the POINT, despite any number of people who seek to deny it, mischaracterize it, or otherwise try to hide the fact, public figures, be they good or bad, who advocate things enable the unhinged of any kind, including the "just merely unhinged". This kind of enablement and (I presume accidental, although sometimes I wonder) encouragement is part of the reason this happens. A complete lack of mental health care for those under the top 5% of wealth is another problem. Finally, the stigma attached to mental health care is the third problem. Except for the politicians who have been speaking violence, this isn't something tied to one party or group of people. Well, the media and the intentional incitement of anger and hatred we see from them needs to be mentioned, as well. Again, this isn't about political parties, it's about advocation of violence and/or anger.
	__________________ The Power to Quit

14th December 2012, 12:51 PM	#193
Sabretooth No Ordinary Rabbit Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Wyoming, NY Posts: 6,149	Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon because civilians don't need guns you need food and shelter and education and medical care. You don't need a gun as a civilian People don't "need" a lot of things. Including alcohol and cars. Yet that combination kills far more innocent folk than gun-toting lunatics... Sorry, but as a very responsible gun owner, I should not have to give up my choice/right to own them because of some dick bag. That would be similar to me having to install an ignition breathalyzer in my car because my neighbor got a DWI.
	__________________ -------------------------------------- Stop asking me about that stupid fruity cereal...that's the OTHER rabbit!

14th December 2012, 12:52 PM	#194
scarlettinlondon Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 193	Originally Posted by Ziggurat But it is an accurate description of what scarlettinlondon wants, and what I responded to: I am very sorry for the families of these children and adults killed. I don't really have a dog in this fight as I live in a country where civilians don't carry guns and even the police do not routinely carry guns. Therefore I live in a country where we don't go through this a great deal. I am always amazed that otherwise thoughtful, intelligent and rational people (such as are represented here) are irrational when it comes to gun control by saying such things as 'it's our right'. I knw you have the legal right to carry and own guns. I know it's part of your constitution. It doesn't stop me from thinking that it's insanity to keep those laws in today's society. Bizarre to me
scarlettinlondon Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 193

14th December 2012, 12:52 PM	#195
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,566	Originally Posted by MaGZ Fake tears from a fake president. So you're a Birther? I too am wondering just when the gun discussion can be had. I suggest the Pres set a date instead of just saying now is not the time. BTW, I do believe Obama noted the conversation was overdue.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

14th December 2012, 12:53 PM	#196
NoahFence Psycho Kitty Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Patriot Nation Posts: 9,323	Originally Posted by LashL Meanwhile, the fellow whose face and Facebook photo are being plastered all over the Internet as the shooter is saying it wasn't him, and obviously it cannot be him if he's alive and updating his Facebook page (although I have read that the page has since been taken down). http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...nzas-facebook/ Man, I'd hate to have a common name at a time like this. His hometown was listed as the place of the shooting, and he lives in Jersey, and he's in his early 20s. It's a coincidence of monumental proportion if that isn't him. Even money says it's his brother updating his facebook page, not him.
	__________________ Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake. -Henry David Thoreau