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Tags Connecticut incidents , gun issues , Sandy Hook , school incidents , school shootings , shooting incidents

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Old 14th December 2012, 12:34 PM   #161
fuelair
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OOps, it's brother was killed. It's father is somewhere else (divorce apparently) and apparently un-killed.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:34 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
"After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military." - William Burroughs
I don't consider WB to be an authority on this subject
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:35 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon View Post
I don't consider WB to be an authority on this subject
It's also inaccurate for the vast majority of societies on earth - including the UK.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:37 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
OOps, it's brother was killed. It's father is somewhere else (divorce apparently) and apparently un-killed.
And the girlfriend is missing? But I wonder how they classify "missing"? At any point in time most days, I'm "missing" to everyone who doesn't know where I am.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:38 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon View Post
I don't consider WB to be an authority on this subject
I'm quoting him because his words convey the message compactly and effectively, not because he's an authority. If you have any objection to the substance of the quote, feel free to offer them.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:38 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'd say the central problem isn't that guns are available but that help for mental illness isn't. Not easily, anyway, and not cheaply. "Crazy person slaughters fifty with axe!" headline says to me "fix the crazies" not "destroy the axes".

hmmm
to me it says disarm the fool. Then we'll talk about his early childhood issues with his mother
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:40 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm quoting him because his words convey the message compactly and effectively, not because he's an authority. If you have any objection to the substance of the quote, feel free to offer them.

No objection to hearing his views.

I would differ. I would prefer to live in a country where only the police and the military have guns that one where everyone, including the crazies have access to guns
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:40 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon View Post
I don't consider WB to be an authority on this subject

He's a particularly poor choice to quote on the subject.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:40 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon View Post
hmmm
to me it says disarm the fool. Then we'll talk about his early childhood issues with his mother
So, let's wait until crazy people get actively murderous before supplying any treatment. Sounds cost effective!
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:40 PM   #170
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This person was deranged he is not normal he is dangerous and I can assure you that there are going to be people who come forward and say this person was THIS or THAT. You dont wake up and do something like this, it takes time and hardship to arrive at deciding that is the right thing to do. People around you know something isn't right. There is much that be done to stop this from happening as much as it does, which by the way, ISNT MUCH...
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:40 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Or if as a society we treated guns as more of a responsibility and less of right. If we could just admit that guns do kill people.
I freely state, agree with and acknowledge the following as facts which I do not recall ever in any previous post or thought disagreeing with:

1. Guns can and do kill people (with gigantic and necessary help from the person pulling their trigger).

2. Guns are a responsibility - a great and important one.

3. Guns are a right (see US Constitution for clarification as needed).

.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:41 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon View Post
I want to say this.

It is my view that gun ownership for civilians is AT LEAST partially responsible for this tragedy.

Any country that allows gun ownership for civilians is being wilfully blind to their part of the blame

English people feel no less free for not being allowed to carry/own guns

We don't have the freedom to carry guns

We don't have the freedom to fear this kind of tragedy

We don't have to train our children in schools what to do if there is a gunman in the building.

Ban guns. You won't regret it
You had me up until the last line. I don't want to ban guns.

It tough to explain my relationship with fire arms - It's one of deep reverence. I don't think most gun owners in america take it seriously and instead they look at their guns as toys and say stupid things like "Guns don't kill people!" If I have one hot button that really sets me off its gun owners that say that - especially in the wake of an event like this. At all cost defend the weapons! Won't somebody please think of the weapons!
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:41 PM   #173
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Meanwhile, the fellow whose face and Facebook photo are being plastered all over the Internet as the shooter is saying it wasn't him, and obviously it cannot be him if he's alive and updating his Facebook page (although I have read that the page has since been taken down).

http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...nzas-facebook/

Man, I'd hate to have a common name at a time like this.

Last edited by LashL; 14th December 2012 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:42 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon View Post
hmmm
to me it says disarm the fool. Then we'll talk about his early childhood issues with his mother
Sure, but why disarm me in the process?
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:42 PM   #175
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Interesting use of the language. Are you unfamiliar with what "few" means

Of course I do, and with over 350,000,000 people, 500 is a FEW..........
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:42 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Delscottio View Post
It's also inaccurate for the vast majority of societies on earth - including the UK.
But it is an accurate description of what scarlettinlondon wants, and what I responded to:
Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon View Post
Ban guns. You won't regret it
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:43 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
I'm still not sure if you're being sincere or are parodying arguments.
He's just raising Cain.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:43 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I freely state, agree with and acknowledge the following as facts which I do not recall ever in any previous post or thought disagreeing with:

1. Guns can and do kill people (with gigantic and necessary help from the person pulling their trigger).

2. Guns are a responsibility - a great and important one.

3. Guns are a right (see US Constitution for clarification as needed).

.
I think you have stated those in the appropriate order of importance from greatest to least.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:43 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by LashL View Post
Meanwhile, the fellow whose face and Facebook photo are being plastered all over the Internet as the shooter is saying it wasn't him, and obviously it cannot be him if he's alive and updating his Facebook page as shown.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...nzas-facebook/

Man, I'd hate to have a common name at a time like this.

Nice of them to plaster the photo a few more times! Poor bugger.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:43 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
So, let's wait until crazy people get actively murderous before supplying any treatment. Sounds cost effective!
Not at all.

Treatment should be available to those who need it.

Guns should not be freely available to those who want them.

If this fool had had a knife rather than a gun there would have been many more survivors
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:44 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Guns are too easy to get in the USA. These kinds school and mass shooting incidents could be minimised with tighter gun control.
The New Zealand qualificatiopn process looks reasonable, but I would add a little more hands-on training, like qualifying fire on every weapon you own.

Having to deal with people too get and keep a weapon is a protection against the occassional gun owner who doesn't have all his headbolts torqued right.

I have only read this far in the thread, but am willing to bet that this has something to do with domestic violence or cutody issues, seeing as how someone mentioned that the shooter's own son is dead.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:44 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by LashL View Post
Meanwhile, the fellow whose face and Facebook photo are being plastered all over the Internet as the shooter is saying it wasn't him, and obviously it cannot be him if he's alive and updating his Facebook page (although I have read that the page has since been taken down).

http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...nzas-facebook/

Man, I'd hate to have a common name at a time like this.
But in good news he's now got Scrut as a new FB friend
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:45 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Sure, but why disarm me in the process?
because civilians don't need guns

you need food and shelter and education and medical care.

You don't need a gun as a civilian
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:45 PM   #184
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I don't mind all the talk about this, and I do think it's an incredibly unfortunate event, but the way some people are acting on twitter is annoying - telling others to stop talking about other subjects, saying no one should advertise their websites or businesses, etc. The world doesn't revolve around America or Americans.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:45 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
It puzzles me why anyone would read story after story on this or watch continuous updates on the news. A bunch of kids were slaughtered. Some deranged ******* did it. Why invite that kind of darkness into your heart?
Wow, you just said something I agree with! No kidding!
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:46 PM   #186
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Remind me again how handguns make us all safer?
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:48 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
I suspect the biggest factor in why these shootings have become almost commonplace in the US is the saturation media coverage (combined with relatively easy access to the means). I doubt the media (and the public it feeds on) will ever take this in and act upon it though.

http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/901518-aurora.pdf
I would agree and I think it's pretty clear by the way these events happen so closely to each other they are copy cat killings perpetuated by both our media's willingness to report on what will get them the most ratings and through our own need to find out as much as we can about the events.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


The first thing I thought of was this video this morning. And here it's happening all over again.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:48 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon View Post
Not at all.

Treatment should be available to those who need it.

Guns should not be freely available to those who want them.

If this fool had had a knife rather than a gun there would have been many more survivors
And if he'd had a toothpick instead of a knife there would be even more survivors. I believe the best solution to problems is to treat their root cause, not just ameliorate the damage.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:49 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon View Post
because civilians don't need guns

you need food and shelter and education and medical care.

You don't need a gun as a civilian
So you ban everything that isn't on Maslow's Heirarchy?
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:50 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by LashL View Post
Meanwhile, the fellow whose face and Facebook photo are being plastered all over the Internet as the shooter is saying it wasn't him, and obviously it cannot be him if he's alive and updating his Facebook page (although I have read that the page has since been taken down).

http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...nzas-facebook/

Man, I'd hate to have a common name at a time like this.

Oh boy. Poor guy. Before his page was taken down, I could see the number of his friends plummet each time I reloaded the page.

NBC News is now saying that the name may not even be correct.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:50 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
Remind me again how handguns make us all safer?
I'm told for defense. I think they jump out of holsters and block bullets.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:51 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Two words: Reality TV.
Several more words: Crazy tea party politicians, "2nd amendment remedies", preaching revolt if Obama wins, etc.

I am NOT even mildly intending to suggest the guy was on the lunatic right, of course, the POINT, despite any number of people who seek to deny it, mischaracterize it, or otherwise try to hide the fact, public figures, be they good or bad, who advocate things enable the unhinged of any kind, including the "just merely unhinged".

This kind of enablement and (I presume accidental, although sometimes I wonder) encouragement is part of the reason this happens.

A complete lack of mental health care for those under the top 5% of wealth is another problem.

Finally, the stigma attached to mental health care is the third problem.

Except for the politicians who have been speaking violence, this isn't something tied to one party or group of people. Well, the media and the intentional incitement of anger and hatred we see from them needs to be mentioned, as well.

Again, this isn't about political parties, it's about advocation of violence and/or anger.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:51 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon View Post
because civilians don't need guns

you need food and shelter and education and medical care.

You don't need a gun as a civilian
People don't "need" a lot of things. Including alcohol and cars. Yet that combination kills far more innocent folk than gun-toting lunatics...

Sorry, but as a very responsible gun owner, I should not have to give up my choice/right to own them because of some dick bag. That would be similar to me having to install an ignition breathalyzer in my car because my neighbor got a DWI.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:52 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But it is an accurate description of what scarlettinlondon wants, and what I responded to:


I am very sorry for the families of these children and adults killed. I don't really have a dog in this fight as I live in a country where civilians don't carry guns and even the police do not routinely carry guns.

Therefore I live in a country where we don't go through this a great deal.

I am always amazed that otherwise thoughtful, intelligent and rational people (such as are represented here) are irrational when it comes to gun control by saying such things as 'it's our right'. I knw you have the legal right to carry and own guns. I know it's part of your constitution. It doesn't stop me from thinking that it's insanity to keep those laws in today's society.

Bizarre to me
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:52 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
Fake tears from a fake president.
So you're a Birther?


I too am wondering just when the gun discussion can be had. I suggest the Pres set a date instead of just saying now is not the time. BTW, I do believe Obama noted the conversation was overdue.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:53 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by LashL View Post
Meanwhile, the fellow whose face and Facebook photo are being plastered all over the Internet as the shooter is saying it wasn't him, and obviously it cannot be him if he's alive and updating his Facebook page (although I have read that the page has since been taken down).

http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...nzas-facebook/

Man, I'd hate to have a common name at a time like this.
His hometown was listed as the place of the shooting, and he lives in Jersey, and he's in his early 20s. It's a coincidence of monumental proportion if that isn't him. Even money says it's his brother updating his facebook page, not him.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:53 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon View Post
Ban guns. You won't regret it
I like hunting. I like venison. As long as we keep being dumb about wolves we have to hunt deer anyway.

So I'd like to at least keep hunting rifles and shotguns.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:54 PM   #198
LTC8K6
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Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon View Post
Not at all.

Treatment should be available to those who need it.

Guns should not be freely available to those who want them.

If this fool had had a knife rather than a gun there would have been many more survivors
I think a maniac who wanted to kill a bunch of kids would have just done something else if he couldn't use a gun.

A car is even easier to get, and you can mow down a lot of people with one, if you're crazy, or elderly...

A bomb is not that hard to make, especially if you're crazy and have time to plot and have internet access...

I just hate the idea of making a law based on what crazy people do or might do...

We had an "assault weapons" ban already, which did absolutely nothing,
except make it harder to get the exact rifle I wanted...didn't really ban anything capable of a massacre...

Somehow the way a rifle looks, makes it more deadly in some states still...
Or having to change a mag after 10 rounds somehow makes the gun safer...

I hope whatever law they come up with makes some sense, but I know it probably won't...

We will prob get a reissue of the Clinton "assault weapons" ban.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:55 PM   #199
scarlettinlondon
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Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
People don't "need" a lot of things. Including alcohol and cars. Yet that combination kills far more innocent folk than gun-toting lunatics...

Sorry, but as a very responsible gun owner, I should not have to give up my choice/right to own them because of some dick bag. That would be similar to me having to install an ignition breathalyzer in my car because my neighbor got a DWI.


I think you should give up that right. I think you should voluntarily and with glee give up that right. I don't think your right to have a gun outweighs the rights of those children to life.

Before you say it, I know you didn't kill them. I am sure you are responsible.

Someone else wasn't. You sound to me like a child saying it wasn't my stone that broke the window, therefore mummy shouldn't have come and stopped me from throwing stones around the garden
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:55 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Delscottio View Post
Too far gone with the number of guns out there....
That's possibly true, but often when these things unfold it turns out the guns used were newly acquired.

We should be able to limit the availability of needlessly large clips and at least decrease the numbers of dead in some of these tragedies.
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