School shooting: but don't mention guns!

[LTC8K6]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Partly and partly misplaced idealism

One thing to remember:When somebody wants to take away your freedom, they always have Good Sounding Reasons for doing so.

I am not against some reasonable limits on gun ownership:Througough Background check;60 day waiting period, limits on how much ammo you can buy at a time. I even don't see the need to won an assault rifle.
But Total Bans..or restrictions so strict they amount to a de facto Ban..I am totally opposed to and will fight by any means necessary.

There's no difference between an "assault rifle" and any other semi-auto removable-magazine fed weapon, in terms of usefulness to massacre people...

[LashL]

Originally Posted by NoahFence

Even money says it's his brother updating his facebook page, not him.

That's possible, of course, which is why I wrote, "if he's alive and updating his Facebook page". It's just as possible that it is the other way around.

The larger point, however, is that I think it is kind of irresponsible to be plastering someone's face all over the place before there is any real confirmation of identity.

[scarlettinlondon]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Colonials.....thanks of confirming what I suspected you think of Americans anyway.
Makes me very glad we kicked out the Brits in 1781....

You did indeed. Well done. Just what we would have done in your position.

Now we are not charging all over your country and annoying you, you don't really need the guns anymore.

[Ben Adams]

No guns and now only the criminals have them.....

Because they of course dont care about the laws.

All of this is just bicker anyway, because washington DC can outlaw guns all they want to on paper, it wont matter. If you think this incident is something, try and take away Americas guns and see what happens...

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Partly and partly misplaced idealism

One thing to remember:When somebody wants to take away your freedom, they always have Good Sounding Reasons for doing so.

I am not against some reasonable limits on gun ownership:Througough Background check;60 day waiting period, limits on how much ammo you can buy at a time. I even don't see the need to won an assault rifle.
But Total Bans..or restrictions so strict they amount to a de facto Ban..I am totally opposed to and will fight by any means necessary.

I do think now would be the time to begin a serious debate. I have no problem with that. Blanket bans, no. Bad idea, patently unfair to law-abiding owners, and ineffective to start with (if your goal is to prevent shootings).

I'm a gun owner. On paper I don't think there should be any gun control. Zero. None. You should be able to buy a Minigun over the counter. But this is reality. Not everybody is responsible or mentally capable of handling so much as a Brown Bess musket. There are insane people, and the mental health system in the US blows.

I do have a sinking feeling that a sequel to the useless "Assault Weapons" Ban is on the horizon. It will serve the same purpose as the 1994 one: to make it look like politicians care enough to do something without actually addressing the larger issues.

I'd be able to deal with a situation where those kinds of weapons (including the one I own) are locked in a safe at a range where they can be used for punching paper targets.

I'm hoping Obama uses this to address the mental health issue. I don't think he will, unfortunately. I think responsible gun owners are going to take it on the chin, same as 18 years ago.

[Ian]

Phil Plait has weighed in:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astro...bility_to.html

[varwoche]

Originally Posted by Sabretooth

Huh?

Well, let's see. What else should I give up? Cars kill, so those should go. Knives. Tobacco. Alcohol. Baseball Bats. Hockey Sticks. Skateboards. Bricks....

C'mon. That argument is silly at best. Why not propose we all just live in isolated padded rooms so no one hurts each other?

Based on the known info at this point, it's easy to imagine a scenario where a large knife (or two) would help this lunatic do exactly what he did today.

I mean, FFS, this guy attacked a classroom full of helpless children! Whether he had a knife, gun, or bare fists, this event is a tragedy in every sense.

It's these patently ridiculous false equivalencies you recite that impress me as "silly at best".

I'm in favor of strict gun control by the way.

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by LashL

That's possible, of course, which is why I wrote, "if he's alive and updating his Facebook page". It's just as possible that it is the other way around.

The larger point, however, is that I think it is kind of irresponsible to be plastering someone's face all over the place before there is any real confirmation of identity.

Expect the news media to be responsible?!

[leftysergeant]

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

You did indeed. Well done. Just what we would have done in your position.

Now we are not charging all over your country and annoying you, you don't really need the guns anymore.

Just making sure you don't come back.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by dudalb

I just cannot understand

A.The idea that because a few people misuse something that something should be taken away for everybody.

B.The whole mentality where people seem endlessly ready to give up individual liberty because of some utopian social ideal.

Agreed, dudalb. And we are likely to see pundits in histrionics that will result in nothing. People need to be more knowledgeable about the guns themselves before we can have a constructive discussion about how to reduce the odds of this sort of tragic event in the future.

[LTC8K6]

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

This argument is because you are pro gun rights. My argument is because I am anti gun rights. We both believe ourselves to be right. You will not convince me that citizens should have the right to bear arms. I probably won't convince you paricularly in view of your finding my argument silly at best.

I have looked at your argument. I think you are right. Removing all guns will not stop all murders.
It might reduce them and it will likely reduce the
mass murders like this.

What I don't understand is why you are not willing to try the gun free experiment seeing as you can see from other countries positions that we have some success. You have nothing to lose other than your right as a civilian to carry a gun. If you think that this right is more important than tryng to reduce these tragedies then I will not be able to convince you to try it.

And I am sorry for my failure as I think you would like it when you got used to it. I like it. And we are not so very different as countries.

I already own guns, including semi-auto pistols and rifle.

What reason will you use to justify taking them from me?

[dudalb]

Here come the Conspiracy Loons:

http://dprogram.net/2012/12/14/newto...econd-shooter/

[Delscottio]

Originally Posted by Ian

Phil Plait has weighed in:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astro...bility_to.html

While I agree with a lot of the article this puzzles me.

"And since then, we’ve experimented. We—the American people—expanded voting rights to women, to blacks, to everyone over the age of 18".

Was the US the first to do these? It's hardly a huge experiment if there is data that the world didn't cave in when other societies granted these rights prior.

[scarlettinlondon]

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

I already own guns, including semi-auto pistols and rifle.

What reason will you use to justify taking them from me?

I don't want to take them away from you.
I want you to give them up yourselves because you can see that you don't need them in a modern civilised country.

[Sabretooth]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Partly and partly misplaced idealism

One thing to remember:When somebody wants to take away your freedom, they always have Good Sounding Reasons for doing so.

I am not against some reasonable limits on gun ownership:Througough Background check;60 day waiting period, limits on how much ammo you can buy at a time. I even don't see the need to won an assault rifle.
But Total Bans..or restrictions so strict they amount to a de facto Ban..I am totally opposed to and will fight by any means necessary.

In New York, we have all that. Extensive background check. Long processing time (depending on county...as little as 6 weeks, but several take up to 13 months to just complete your application). Mandatory gun safety and handling class. Every gun you purchase is documented to your permit. In many cases, it's not even legal to carry your gun in public, you may only transport to/from the range or hunting grounds.

Every State should make sure that the person requesting to possess a handgun/rifle has the qualifications to do so. I don't have a problem with that.

Thing is...no government run/sponsored program works perfectly. There are going to be mistakes. Same as with giving an 85 year old legally blind man a license to drive.

Banning guns altogether is just a silly argument...

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

I don't want to take them away from you.
I want you to give them up yourselves because you can see that you don't need them in a modern civilised country.

And we don't want to give them up ourselves because we, as a modern civilized society, have decided we want them.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

I wasn't going to go there, but since you did...

Knives are already illegal in schools...China has recently cracked down on security in schools.

If the kids in China all had knives, this would never have happen

[scarlettinlondon]

Originally Posted by Polaris

And we don't want to give them up ourselves because we, as a modern civilized society, have decided we want them.

I know. That's why you keep getting these school shootings.

it's your right. It's just not rational

[scarlettinlondon]

Originally Posted by Sabretooth

Banning guns altogether is just a silly argument...

I can see that you don't LIKE it. I don't see why it's silly. You might not like the idea of giving up your rights. It can't really be silly to have a country where civilians don't carry\own guns. Boring perhaps. Safe and dull possibly. Not silly though.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

I don't want to take them away from you.
I want you to give them up yourselves because you can see that you don't need them in a modern civilised country.

You do realize that not everybody lives in safe neighborhoods, right? There are parts of my city I wouldn't live in unless I owned a gun. Heck, there are parts of it I wouldn't go through unarmed, in broad daylight.

[Agatha]

This opportunistic idiot (I'd call him other names, but they'd be auto-censored out) thinks he has the answer to school shootings: Blame the separation of church and state

[Sabretooth]

Originally Posted by varwoche

It's these patently ridiculous false equivalencies you recite that impress me as "silly at best".

I'm in favor of strict gun control by the way.

I have no problem with strict gun laws. That makes it even less likely that I will ever have to use mine to defend myself.

However, with the "false equivalencies" label, I think you've missed the point.

The comment was made, more or less, as "guns kill people - so give up your guns".

So I gave examples of other readily available items that "kill people". Are we prepared to give up everything that kills? No we're not. So to make such an opinionated statement such as above is silly, and I responded in kind with equally silly remarks.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally Posted by Ben Adams

If I had a dime for every person in America that got pissed enough at someone over the last month to want to kill them, I would be a rich man.

And a homeless one for every person that actually did it.

You people think so much of yourself and the sanctity of the human experience.

Oh 25 people oh no it's a tragedy lets take everybody guns THAT will fix it!

Too bad you cant fix the 10,000,000 people in Africa who are dead from aids because the pope doesn't like condoms....

Get a grip on yourselves, Jesus Christ.........
It aint the end of the world YET..............

You people should be PROUD that so many people own guns in this country and we STILL only have THIS FEW of incidents like this.

What's the gun crime rate in the UK?

[Sabretooth]

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

I don't want to take them away from you.
I want you to give them up yourselves because you can see that you don't need them in a modern civilised country.

Apparently, you've never been to the east side of Buffalo...

[grunion]

News 8 Connecticut is reporting a Security Policy that went into effect at Sandy Hook Elementary at the beginning of this school year, with the following letter having gone out to parents from the principal, Mrs. Hochsprung (reportedly a victim of the shooting):

Quote:

Dear Members of our Sandy Hook Family,
Our district will be implementing a security system in all elementary schools as part of our ongoing efforts to ensure student safety. As usual, exterior doors will be locked during the day. Every visitor will be required to ring the doorbell at the front entrance and the office staff will use a visual monitoring system to allow entry. Visitors will still be required to report directly to the office and sign in. If our office staff does not recognize you, you will be required to show identification with a picture id. Please understand that with nearly 700 students and over 1000 parents representing 500 SHS families, most parents will be asked to show identification.
Doors will be locked at approximately 9:30 a.m. Any student arriving after that time must be walked into the building and signed in at the office. Before that time our regular drop-off procedures will be in place. I encourage all parents to have their children come to school and return home on the bus and to remain in school for the entire school day. The beginning and ending of our school day are also important instructional times and therefore we want all our students to reap the benefits of full participation in our program.
We need your help and cooperation for our system to work effectively. Our office staff is handling multiple tasks. Though they will work diligently to help you into the building as quickly as possible, there may be a short delay until someone can view you on the handset and allow you to come in electronically. There are times during the day when office personnel are on the telephone, addressing student concerns, or in the copy room; there are other times when only one person is in the front office. Please help our staff by identifying yourself and provide your child’s name. Keep in mind we will be following our district guidelines which may need revision once we test the system.
Please know your involvement continues to be critical to our school’s effectiveness and your child’s success. We continue to encourage and value your presence in our classrooms and are counting on your cooperation with the implementation of this safety initiative.
Sincerely,
Mrs. Hochsprung

It does look like a reasonable security policy to me, and one which showed foresight in assessing potential threats to the school; one wonders if it was indeed implemented and enforced today. Perhaps the alleged fact that the shooter was a parent of one of the students (and thus presumably could display the proper credentials to get himself in the building) rendered this security protocol ineffective in this case.

Regardless, I think it underlines how powerless we are over increasingly random violence. We prepare, and make regulations that impinge on our convenience and freedom, but horror still manages to happen. On planes, in the workplace, and now in the most innocent of environments, elementary school. I don't know if gun control is the absolute answer - if there were much tighter restrictions on gun ownership and distribution I think the number of these incidents would undoubtedly drop. But there are just so many guns already distributed throughout the population that I think it would take a generation or two before the effects of new restrictions were felt. I don't know, just my gut. I think it is more a symptom of the diseased, violent psyche that is infecting this country. It was always here but it just seems to be getting worse.

There is such a competitive, polemical divide in the US that I wonder if any lawmakers can muster the political will to have a rational discussion about how to deal with the disease.

I am just heartsick. I can't help but dwell on my kissing my kids as they left for school today and wondering how I would manage to continue functioning if that kiss was the last I ever felt of their warm, wonderful cheeks.

[One Skunk Todd]

Some thoughts short of outright confiscation. Any or all of these:

1. All autoloading firearms subject to the NFA ($200.00 tax stamp, fingerprints, photograph, background check, LEO approval)

2. Raise the minimum ownership/purchase age for autoloaders to 25. (30?)

3. Mental health evaluation? (renew every 5/10 years?)

4. Ban on private transfers.

All onerous but still allow for private use/possession.

[NoahFence]

Originally Posted by Agatha

This opportunistic idiot (I'd call him other names, but they'd be auto-censored out) thinks he has the answer to school shootings: Blame the separation of church and state

What a piece of :.

Wasn't there a mass shooting at a church not too long ago? What - God's not wanted in a church?

[LashL]

Originally Posted by Polaris

Expect the news media to be responsible?!

Yes, I know but, geez, erroneously labelling someone a mass murderer of kindergarten children and plastering his photo all over the place prematurely (i.e., without proper confirmation) is pretty outrageous if that is, indeed, what has happened here. Even worse, if it is as it currently appears, the fellow named and shamed is actually a victim (in that it sounds as though both his mother and father were murdered today, possibly by his brother).

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

I know. That's why you keep getting these school shootings.

it's your right. It's just not rational

What is rational is using this horrific incident as a catalyst to have a meaningful discussion on what to do about it. Banning every gun outright - as has been suggested quite a bit both outright and by implication - is as hysterical and emotional a reaction as the other side suggesting or outright saying the discussion shouldn't even be brought up.

It should be obvious - and it is obvious to a number of posters here and in the (gag, puke) blogosphere - that the common factor in the mass shootings is that the shooters are mentally ill, to say the least. That to me seems like the best route for the discussion to take: how to keep weapons out of the hands of the insane, and beyond that how to treat the insane in the first place (and reduce the stigma, if not eliminate it).

[LTC8K6]

Originally Posted by scarlettinlondon

I don't want to take them away from you.
I want you to give them up yourselves because you can see that you don't need them in a modern civilised country.

But I don't see or agree with that, and I am very much civilized, thank you.

Removing my guns from me would require passing a law. That would take my guns away from me. Guns that have never shot at anything other than tin cans and paper and other typical recreational targets. Guns that have done nothing but provide fun and entertainment to me and my friends and family.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally Posted by Ben Adams

No guns and now only the criminals have them.....

And law enforcement and military.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

I have a hard time believing this guy would've killed people if he didn't have access to guns.

The American handgun. Designed to be cheap, reliable and deadly. You can read all about the reasons to buy one gun or another, usually it comes down to the ability to do real damage without any trouble.

[Ryokan]

Originally Posted by Agatha

This opportunistic idiot (I'd call him other names, but they'd be auto-censored out) thinks he has the answer to school shootings: Blame the separation of church and state

Doesn't this argument come up every time there has been an incident like this?

[Sabretooth]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

And law enforcement and military.

When seconds count, the police are minutes away....

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

But I don't see or agree with that, and I am very much civilized, thank you.

Removing my guns from me would require passing a law. That would take my guns away from me. Guns that have never shot at anything other than tin cans and paper and other typical recreational targets. Guns that have done nothing but provide fun and entertainment to me and my friends and family.

You'll get over it.

[LTC8K6]

Originally Posted by One Skunk Todd

Some thoughts short of outright confiscation. Any or all of these:

1. All autoloading firearms subject to the NFA ($200.00 tax stamp, fingerprints, photograph, background check, LEO approval)

2. Raise the minimum ownership/purchase age for autoloaders to 25. (30?)

3. Mental health evaluation? (renew every 5/10 years?)

4. Ban on private transfers.

All onerous but still allow for private use/possession.

That would excessively restrict poor people...

That would excessively impact young people as well...

No way the excess fees or age are going to fly, imo...

In my state, NC, you can't privately transfer a handgun without a handgun permit from the buyer.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

You do realize that not everybody lives in safe neighborhoods, right? There are parts of my city I wouldn't live in unless I owned a gun. Heck, there are parts of it I wouldn't go through unarmed, in broad daylight.

is it because they might have guns?

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by LashL

Yes, I know but, geez, erroneously labelling someone a mass murderer of kindergarten children and plastering his photo all over the place prematurely (i.e., without proper confirmation) is pretty outrageous if that is, indeed, what has happened here. Even worse, if it is as it currently appears, the fellow named and shamed is actually a victim (in that it sounds as though both his mother and father were murdered today, possibly by his brother).

Oh I agree, it's a new low even for a media that pretty much all by itself set nuclear power back by decades after the Sendai Tsunami.

[Chris L]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

And law enforcement and military.

Neither of which were there in time to stop this from happening.

[LTC8K6]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

You'll get over it.

Why should I have to?

I can't sit and try to hit tin cans at 100 yards with my Marlin model 60 and CCI Stingers on a Saturday afternoon because a mentally ill person went off and shot up a school?

It doesn't make sense.