Android 'Freedom' and the 'Apple Trap'... - Page 2

TheL8Elvis · 17th December 2012, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

My Android OS was just upgraded to Jelly Bean for free.

You understand you are the exception, not the rule on Android upgrades, correct ?

(also that it took almost 6 months for you to get that update)

PixyMisa · 17th December 2012, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp

Didn't know that. Good policy.

Of course, the lifetime of the device expires whenever they say it does. Example: Want to upgrade your iPad 1 to iOS 6? Sorry, the life of your device just expired.

PixyMisa · 17th December 2012, 06:00 AM

Anyway, this is what Android freedom means:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_...-based_bundles

Wake me when there's a Humble iOS Bundle.

Alan · 17th December 2012, 06:02 AM

I used iOS on iPod touches for two years for hours a day until recently. And have had Android on phones for almost as long. I am experienced with both. I don't find the solution without a problem characterisation to be good. Things that work satisfactorily can be made better. I find some things along the lines of what I've listed to do that.

And I only offered a couple of examples of customisation possibilities. And I'm not saying that Android is better than iOS for everyone, or for you. And I disagree that most of the customisable things are built into iOS.

SatansMaleVoiceChoir · 17th December 2012, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by PixyMisa

Of course, the lifetime of the device expires whenever they say it does. Example: Want to upgrade your iPad 1 to iOS 6? Sorry, the life of your device just expired.

Oh, do all Android devices run the newest version of the OS regardless of their age?

So, if someone owns an iPad 1, then it doesn't work anymore? Apple have remotely killed all iPad 1's?

Does that mean that when iOS 6 was released people should have just thrown them in the bin?

Just looking at eBay, and the going rate for an iPad 1 32GB is easily over £150 on average. Not bad for a nearly 3 year-old peice of hardware in this day and age; especially one that's ready for the bin, eh?

PixyMisa · 17th December 2012, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir

Oh, do all Android devices run the newest version of the OS regardless of their age?

The point is not what Android does, the point is what Apple doesn't.

SatansMaleVoiceChoir · 17th December 2012, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by PixyMisa

Anyway, this is what Android freedom means:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_...-based_bundles

Wake me when there's a Humble iOS Bundle.

So 'Android Freedom' means "I can buy a bundle of Apps all at the same time, regardless of how many of them I like"? Fantastic!

Kind of like buying a compilation Album because it's got two songs on it you like, instead of just buying the two songs?

Yeah, that's freedom!

SatansMaleVoiceChoir · 17th December 2012, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by PixyMisa

The point is not what Android does, the point is what Apple doesn't.

Even when Android doesn't do it either?

Alan · 17th December 2012, 06:25 AM

Considering you can pay what you want, and you don't need to download what you don't want...

It would be great to have a pleasant discussion on this topic instead of one about point scoring.

SatansMaleVoiceChoir · 17th December 2012, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by Alan

I used iOS on iPod touches for two years for hours a day until recently. And have had Android on phones for almost as long. I am experienced with both. I don't find the solution without a problem characterisation to be good. Things that work satisfactorily can be made better. I find some things along the lines of what I've listed to do that.

It's horses for courses Alan. I'm more concerned with the people who actively go out of their way to be as vocally critical about iOS and iOS device owners as possible. They trumpet this 'Freedom' as loud as they can on any message board where the subject comes up, but none can adequately explain what this 'freedom' actually consists of.

Things can be made better, but for me, redesigning a keyboard isn't 'better'. Reinventing the wheel, doesn't necessarily make it better.

Originally Posted by Alan

And I only offered a couple of examples of customisation possibilities. And I'm not saying that Android is better than iOS for everyone, or for you. And I disagree that most of the customisable things are built into iOS.

This is why I keep asking for specific examples from people who tell me I'm not 'free', or Android is better because Apple are 'The Man, and they want to keep you down and control you, dude!"

SatansMaleVoiceChoir · 17th December 2012, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by Alan

Considering you can pay what you want, and you don't need to download what you don't want...

It would be great to have a pleasant discussion on this topic instead of one about point scoring.

To be fair, Alan - you don't seem the point-scoring type, and I am more than willing to discuss this with you. I don't think you were the type of person this post was for, anyway - as explained above.

Alan · 17th December 2012, 06:30 AM

Android has a worse situation in terms of updates because of the way it's distributed. That's well known. But correcting a claim about iOS updates for the life of the device being followed up by an android quoque didn't seem good to me.

EDIT: I will respond to the posts you just made after I've gone to sleep as it's past 1:30 am. Have a good day.

SatansMaleVoiceChoir · 17th December 2012, 06:39 AM

Fair enough, Alan! Have a good sleep!

Originally Posted by Alan

Android has a worse situation in terms of updates because of the way it's distributed. That's well known. But correcting a claim about iOS updates for the life of the device being followed up by an android quoque didn't seem good to me.

If you're referring to this exchange:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir
Oh, do all Android devices run the newest version of the OS regardless of their age?

Quote:

The point is not what Android does, the point is what Apple doesn't.

Then the hypocrisy is not on my part.

Pixymisa insinuated that Android is superior because Apple phase out their products with iOS updates, where Android do exactly the same, and I pointed this out. She then tried to avoid that by handwaving the question away saying it's 'not about what Android does'.

merentha · 17th December 2012, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir

Things can be made better, but for me, redesigning a keyboard isn't 'better'. Reinventing the wheel, doesn't necessarily make it better.

Redesigning the keyboard is more like moving from hard wooden wheels to light metal spoked heels with tyres. They are both functionally the same, but the latter gives a less bumpy ride. I am fine with my stock keyboard on my Sony tablet, but prefer Swiftkey for my SIII phone. I am glad there was the option to get a keyboard that best fits my needs and typing habits. YMMV.

Similarly, I love the mail, calendar and tasks widgets that allow me to organise my day with one glance on the home screen without having to load each app separately. Many Android owners may not do the same, but I appreciate the option.

I know many iPhone owners love to harp on Siri, but they forget the world is bigger than the US. Where I am from (Singapore), Siri is still poorly implemented.

As for the ability to install apps from outside the Google Play, for the longest time, my favourite app for reading manga, Mango, was not listed in Google Play until recently. But I had the freedom to install it for my Android (and also Blackberry) machines. And no, I don't think it is available on iOS yet.

SatansMaleVoiceChoir · 17th December 2012, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by merentha

Redesigning the keyboard is more like moving from hard wooden wheels to light metal spoked heels with tyres. They are both functionally the same, but the latter gives a less bumpy ride. I am fine with my stock keyboard on my Sony tablet, but prefer Swiftkey for my SIII phone. I am glad there was the option to get a keyboard that best fits my needs and typing habits. YMMV.

Similarly, I love the mail, calendar and tasks widgets that allow me to organise my day with one glance on the home screen without having to load each app separately. Many Android owners may not do the same, but I appreciate the option.

As you say, YMMV. It's no hardship for me at all to open a seperate App for email, messages, etc. If I want to see them all at a glance, then I have the notification centre.

Originally Posted by merentha

I know many iPhone owners love to harp on Siri, but they forget the world is bigger than the US. Where I am from (Singapore), Siri is still poorly implemented.

That's a shame, because it is really good.

Originally Posted by merentha

As for the ability to install apps from outside the Google Play, for the longest time, my favourite app for reading manga, Mango, was not listed in Google Play until recently. But I had the freedom to install it for my Android (and also Blackberry) machines. And no, I don't think it is available on iOS yet.

Obviously, any App I download on my iPhone is also available on my iPad. Any film or song I download on my iPhone is available on my Apple TV, iMAc, or iPad - or any combination of those!

WildCat · 17th December 2012, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir

Frequently. I suppose it would be an issue if I was going caving, or exploring the wilderness and had a sudden need to watch 'Krull' on my iPad. Given that all the hotels or places I stay at all have wifi then I'm pretty much covered. If I can't get wifi, then it's 3G. If I can't get 3G then I'd rely on internal storage until I could. Not that this has happened yet.

Good luck getting any sort of streaming audio from the cloud while traveling between cities. Like when you're in your car, not in a hotel room.

Fast Eddie B · 17th December 2012, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Good luck getting any sort of streaming audio from the cloud while traveling between cities. Like when you're in your car, not in a hotel room.

FWIW, NOT being able to stream audio is for us the exception rather than the rule.

We routinely listen to Pandora on the road on our iPhones with very few dropouts. Also have iTunes Match, which gives us access to our entire (substantial) iTunes library. Yes, using AT&T there's a fairly long stretch between our N GA home and Knoxville, TN, a trip we often make. But, in general, if we even have access to the Edge network - which is most of the time - we can stream audio.

Back to the OP topic - Apple and iOs seems to work for a lot of people and makes them (generally) happy. Android also seems to work for a lot of people and makes them (generally) happy.

Can't we all just get along?

SatansMaleVoiceChoir · 17th December 2012, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Good luck getting any sort of streaming audio from the cloud while traveling between cities. Like when you're in your car, not in a hotel room.

Thanks! Don't think I'll need it - hasn't been an issue yet, apart from sometimes during train travel. Doesn't matter anyway, because I have all my main favourites in internal storage. So unless I'm without any kind of signal for about 2 hours while driving, I've nothing to worry about.

merentha · 17th December 2012, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir

As you say, YMMV. It's no hardship for me at all to open a seperate App for email, messages, etc. If I want to see them all at a glance, then I have the notification centre.

The widgets have more info than the notifications centre, e.g. I can see my calendar schedule for the day, or the tasks in progress but not necessarily due that day.

Quote:

Obviously, any App I download on my iPhone is also available on my iPad. Any film or song I download on my iPhone is available on my Apple TV, iMAc, or iPad - or any combination of those!

It works the same on Android too. Any app I download from Google Play for my phone is also available on my tablet. Don't see what this has to do with the point I was making that I wasn't tied to whatever is available on Google Play for app choices. FYI, none of my devices are rooted either. An iPhone would require me to jailbreak the device if I want to install apps that are blocked by Apple from the Appstore for various reasons, e.g. dev not willing to submit to 30% perpetual extortion for subscription services (Skydrive), or Apple censorship.

Dr. Keith · 17th December 2012, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Back to the OP topic - Apple and iOs seems to work for a lot of people and makes them (generally) happy. Android also seems to work for a lot of people and makes the (generally) happy.

It always reminds me of discussions in car forums about whether a car should have three pedals or two: For those who want three, three works best; for those who only want two, two works best. Everything else is just users trying to justify their preference.

I find it funny how important it is for us humans to justify our preferences to complete strangers.

SatansMaleVoiceChoir · 17th December 2012, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by merentha

The widgets have more info than the notifications centre, e.g. I can see my calendar schedule for the day, or the tasks in progress but not necessarily due that day.

Is that useful to someone - I suppose so. Would I use it? No. I don't mind clicking on an App to get in-depth information.

Originally Posted by merentha

It works the same on Android too. Any app I download from Google Play for my phone is also available on my tablet. Don't see what this has to do with the point I was making that I wasn't tied to whatever is available on Google Play for app choices. FYI, none of my devices are rooted either. An iPhone would require me to jailbreak the device if I want to install apps that are blocked by Apple from the Appstore for various reasons, e.g. dev not willing to submit to 30% perpetual extortion for subscription services (Skydrive), or Apple censorship.

Oh I see, I'm TIED to the App Store. This is one of the points I'm talking about just because I'm limited to only using the App Store does not mean the Apps I can download are limited. There is nothing I would want to do - or could reasonably expect to do - on my phone that I can't get some kind of App for.

I had this App on my phone for a while, but I found I didn't really use the icons I created (Yes! Created shortcuts on an unjailbroken iOS device!

), does this kind of customisation count as 'freedom', even though I got it through the 'evil' App Store?:

http://lifehacker.com/5859499/icon-p...tings-and-more

Apparently since the update to iOS 6 the developers haven't bothered to update it, so the App no longer works. That's not Apple's fault. The point is, 'Freedom!'

Checkmite · 17th December 2012, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by merentha

It works the same on Android too. Any app I download from Google Play for my phone is also available on my tablet.

What about the apps you didn't download from Google Play; what about those apps you had the "freedom" to buy and download from anywhere on the web? Get to download those to each of your devices too without having to pay again each time?

TheL8Elvis · 17th December 2012, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by merentha

The widgets have more info than the notifications centre, e.g. I can see my calendar schedule for the day, or the tasks in progress but not necessarily due that day.

It works the same on Android too. Any app I download from Google Play for my phone is also available on my tablet. Don't see what this has to do with the point I was making that I wasn't tied to whatever is available on Google Play for app choices. FYI, none of my devices are rooted either. An iPhone would require me to jailbreak the device if I want to install apps that are blocked by Apple from the Appstore for various reasons, e.g. dev not willing to submit to 30% perpetual extortion for subscription services (Skydrive), or Apple censorship.

Since you bring up google play, I think this tu quoque is relevant:

http://play.google.com/about/develop...nt-policy.html

SatansMaleVoiceChoir · 17th December 2012, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Since you bring up google play, I think this tu quoque is relevant:

http://play.google.com/about/develop...nt-policy.html

Ah... the policy document of 'Freedom'!

TheL8Elvis · 17th December 2012, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir

Is that useful to someone - I suppose so. Would I use it? No. I don't mind clicking on an App to get in-depth information.

You can't keep brushing off every point with 'but I don't need it'.

Widgets and home screen customization are things that android users can do easily and and iOS users can't (in the same way). It's a valid example of 'freedom' that android enjoys that iOS doesn't.

Now, I don't think it's a particularly good thing for android, but that's a different argument.

SatansMaleVoiceChoir · 17th December 2012, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

What about the apps you didn't download from Google Play; what about those apps you had the "freedom" to buy and download from anywhere on the web? Get to download those to each of your devices too without having to pay again each time?

So Google Play is just like the App Store, except it has less apps and they ask you nicely not to upload viruses, spam, malware and spyware, instead of actively preventing it?

Wow! Freedom!

TheL8Elvis · 17th December 2012, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Good luck getting any sort of streaming audio from the cloud while traveling between cities. Like when you're in your car, not in a hotel room.

Have you not heard of cellular data ? My iPhone, for example, can access the Internet from a car.

SatansMaleVoiceChoir · 17th December 2012, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

You can't keep brushing off every point with 'but I don't need it'.

Widgets and home screen customization are things that android users can do easily and and iOS users can't (in the same way). It's a valid example of 'freedom' that android enjoys that iOS doesn't.

Now, I don't think it's a particularly good thing for android, but that's a different argument.

The fact that I don't need it is central to my point. I am also speaking for the VAST majority of my friends who own iPhones - people who can't 'be bothered' to use Siri, or bookmarks, or shortcuts, and will quite happily do something manually.

I, and the friends I mention, am generally not impressed by a feature that will save me - what? - a whole TWO to THREE seconds at best over the same functionality in iOS.

There's convenience, and then there's 'improvements' which don't really make any significant impact.

I also forget some iOS features as well; merentha mentioned widgets on the homescreen, and I mentioned the notification centre. Merentha then pointed out that they could see their whole schedule, not just a notification. What I forgot to add was that if I swipe on the notification it will launch the app and show me in depth. Does this much-trumpeted 'Android Freedom' really boil down to my having to swipe my homescreen to get the same effect as an Android Device? I'm fairly sure that in order to see your entire schedule for the day from the homescreen, you'd have to touch it, or make a gesture, or unlock your phone? Whereas I can achieve the same thing with one swipe from the lock screen.

SatansMaleVoiceChoir · 17th December 2012, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Have you not heard of cellular data ? My iPhone, for example, can access the Internet from a car.

I think Wildcat was thinking of big cellular data holes between cities. Not something we tend to worry about in the UK, as we're fairly small, and distances between population centres isn't much.

TheL8Elvis · 17th December 2012, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir

The fact that I don't need it is central to my point. I am also speaking for the VAST majority of my friends who own iPhones - people who can't 'be bothered' to use Siri, or bookmarks, or shortcuts, and will quite happily do something manually.

This goes back to my point about the vocal minority. A would guess a majority of android users don't
a) know they are running android
b) if they know, don't know what version
c) don't download different home screens or modify the default settings in much of any way

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir

I, and the friends I mention, am generally not impressed by a feature that will save me - what? - a whole TWO to THREE seconds at best over the same functionality in iOS.

There's convenience, and then there's 'improvements' which don't really make any significant impact.

Nonetheless, it's a small advantage.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir

I also forget some iOS features as well; merentha mentioned widgets on the homescreen, and I mentioned the notification centre. Merentha then pointed out that they could see their whole schedule, not just a notification. What I forgot to add was that if I swipe on the notification it will launch the app and show me in depth. Does this much-trumpeted 'Android Freedom' really boil down to my having to swipe my homescreen to get the same effect as an Android Device? I'm fairly sure that in order to see your entire schedule for the day from the homescreen, you'd have to touch it, or make a gesture, or unlock your phone? Whereas I can achieve the same thing with one swipe from the lock screen.

Yes, but the freedom is android developers are not locked into apples notification API, for example.

So yes, the fact that I can have a live widget updating information on my lock screen, for example, is something that may be of benefit to many users.

Or choosing the default application that opens with an action. We iOS users don't get to have address book open a location in the map application of our choice, do we ?

SatansMaleVoiceChoir · 17th December 2012, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

This goes back to my point about the vocal minority. A would guess a majority of android users don't
a) know they are running android
b) if they know, don't know what version
c) don't download different home screens or modify the default settings in much of any way

Same as the vast majority of iOS users I know. You and I realise this, but it doesn't stop the (minority) of Android users who enjoy actively running these people down for their choice of device - like it was done as a personal affront.

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Nonetheless, it's a small advantage.

It is, but not one that outweighs the benefits of owning an Apple device, IMO. Am I going to give up everything I enjoy about iOS and associated devices because of a difference of a second, or one less swipe on a touchscreen? Nope.

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Yes, but the freedom is android developers are not locked into apples notification API, for example.

So yes, the fact that I can have a live widget updating information on my lock screen, for example, is something that may be of benefit to many users.

I'm sure it would, but I can achieve the same effect from my lock screen with one swipe of a finger. The difference is negligible. Whether or not you would want your entire days schedule being displayed on your lock screen available to anyone who picks up your phone, is another matter entirely.

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Or choosing the default application that opens with an action. We iOS users don't get to have address book open a location in the map application of our choice, do we ?

No, but again, why would I want to? If I say "Take me to 'Contact Name'" into Siri, it shows me exactly on the map where that contact is. What difference does which app map I'm using make?

merentha · 17th December 2012, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

What about the apps you didn't download from Google Play; what about those apps you had the "freedom" to buy and download from anywhere on the web? Get to download those to each of your devices too without having to pay again each time?

No idea. The non-Google Play apps I had were free.

Anyway, I didn't realise this thread was meant to be an exercise for the OP to shoot down every example of Android freedom. Some folks are happy with what Apple offers, and are also invested enough enough in the Apple ecosystem that I would recommend they continue to stick with iOS.

OTOH I made a conscious choice to go with Android when shopping for a new phone way back in the dark days of Android 2.1 because I knew I won't be likely to get a Mac and didn't want to deal with iTunes on my PC, so there was no advantage for me to be tied to Apple's walled garden.

Also, I like a choice of competing handsets to choose one that fits my needs, not what Apple determines I should need. I am not religious about the brand. My first was a Motorola Droid X, and now it is a Samsung SIII. Both have removable batteries and memory card slots. Once I am due for recontract and a better phone comes along that fits my requirements and aesthetics, I'll likely switch.

There is a price to freedom. Apps may not universally work well for all Android models. I will also need to be a little more vigilant and intelligent about which apps are trustworthy enough to install. But these are little minuses I can live with, just as iOS users who can live with not having widgets.

There are folks who are happy to never leave their little heaven in suburbia, and there are folks who love to travel on extreme adventures, roughing out in wild jungles and harsh deserts. Neither are right or wrong. Clarify misconceptions, but there is no need to ridicule the other side.

TheL8Elvis · 17th December 2012, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir

No, but again, why would I want to? If I say "Take me to 'Contact Name'" into Siri, it shows me exactly on the map where that contact is. What difference does which app map I'm using make?

Because I might prefer to use google maps instead of apple ? Or a map app I bought in the app store ?

I also would like to specify Atomic web browser as my default browser, not safari.

Or GoodReader as my default PDF reader.

Not being able to specify a default handler is big deal to me. It means jumping through many more hoops than on Android, for example.

The fact that dropbox isn't accessible systemwide to all my apps would be another example.

Sideloading apps from any source I want without jumping through hoops would be yet another example.

All of the above are android freedoms that I wish iOS had. There really are no workarounds to the above - you just can't do those things. It's not a deal breaker for me or anything, but I would like to do those things.

merentha · 17th December 2012, 10:04 AM

The SIII allows me to customise which apps I can launch from locked screen. As for the calendar widget, I only need to unlock my phone. The schedule list is there on my home screen, summarised. No need to launch the full calendar app and scroll down the empty time blocks in between items.

TheL8Elvis · 17th December 2012, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by merentha

No idea. The non-Google Play apps I had were free.

Anyway, I didn't realise this thread was meant to be an exercise for the OP to shoot down every example of Android freedom. Some folks are happy with what Apple offers, and are also invested enough enough in the Apple ecosystem that I would recommend they continue to stick with iOS.

OTOH I made a conscious choice to go with Android when shopping for a new phone way back in the dark days of Android 2.1 because I knew I won't be likely to get a Mac and didn't want to deal with iTunes on my PC, so there was no advantage for me to be tied to Apple's walled garden.

Also, I like a choice of competing handsets to choose one that fits my needs, not what Apple determines I should need. I am not religious about the brand. My first was a Motorola Droid X, and now it is a Samsung SIII. Both have removable batteries and memory card slots. Once I am due for recontract and a better phone comes along that fits my requirements and aesthetics, I'll likely switch.

There is a price to freedom. Apps may not universally work well for all Android models. I will also need to be a little more vigilant and intelligent about which apps are trustworthy enough to install. But these are little minuses I can live with, just as iOS users who can live with not having widgets.

There are folks who are happy to never leave their little heaven in suburbia, and there are folks who love to travel on extreme adventures, roughing out in wild jungles and harsh deserts. Neither are right or wrong. Clarify misconceptions, but there is no need to ridicule the other side.

That's a very unfair interpretation. Apple does not try to be everything to everyone. Apple determines what features it's device and OS will support, and likely takes into consideration the wants and needs of average consumer, and its own business interests. If all of that means the intended audience doesn't include you, that certainly doesn't mean that apple is trying to dictate to you what you need. That's silly.

BenBurch · 17th December 2012, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Buying an Apple mobile device entitles you to free OS updates for the lifetime of the device.

Buying an Android device possibly entitles you to free updates until the manufacturer loses interest. After that, good luck.

merentha · 17th December 2012, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

That's a very unfair interpretation. Apple does not try to be everything to everyone. Apple determines what features it's device and OS will support, and likely takes into consideration the wants and needs of average consumer, and its own business interests. If all of that means the intended audience doesn't include you, that certainly doesn't mean that apple is trying to dictate to you what you need. That's silly.

But by doing so, Apple is exactly determining what phone their users need. I was, and still am, attracted to the range of game offerings on iOS. However, since Apple is the only one who is allowed to release iOS devices, I will either have to accept their predetermined hardware, or forgo iOS. There is no third-party manufacturer who is allowed to release a iOS device that allows for removable battery and memory card slots, or have a phone with a bigger screen for comfortable web surfing.

The Google Nexus phones did not allow for the removable battery and the memory card slot, and I am happy to avoid them. Stock Android was less important to me than those hardware features.

SatansMaleVoiceChoir · 17th December 2012, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by merentha

Anyway, I didn't realise this thread was meant to be an exercise for the OP to shoot down every example of Android freedom.

It's not - I'm waiting for someone to demonstrate what 'Android Freedom' actually means. Bar a few less swipes needed or the odd second here and there saved in a few applications to achieve the same effect as in iOS, I'm still waiting.

SatansMaleVoiceChoir · 17th December 2012, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Because I might prefer to use google maps instead of apple ? Or a map app I bought in the app store ?

But the end result is the same. You'll see a map with a pin on it showing your contact location. I appreciate what you're saying; at least you'd have the choice, but is it really choice or the illusion of choice if the end result is still the same?

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

I also would like to specify Atomic web browser as my default browser, not safari.

Or GoodReader as my default PDF reader.

Not being able to specify a default handler is big deal to me. It means jumping through many more hoops than on Android, for example.

Again, it may be just me - and people like me - but "Look - I can choose my own web browser!" isn't a draw for me, or many average people I know. Web Browsers browse webs - does it allow me to see the webpage I want? Yes. Then it's a web browser. Does my device read PDFs if I want it to? Yes. The it's all good. Would a different PDF Reader make a drastic difference to the end product?

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

The fact that dropbox isn't accessible systemwide to all my apps would be another example.

I use a combination of iCloud and emailing documents to myself.

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

All of the above are android freedoms that I wish iOS had. There really are no workarounds to the above - you just can't do those things. It's not a deal breaker for me or anything, but I would like to do those things.

I don't know - maybe it's because I'm not a 'power-user', and neither are the vast majority of people I know, but none of those things are a dealbreaker for me and many others, and certainly don't mean 'freedom'. I don't even know what 'side-loading apps' means!

I find there's a workaround for most things in iOS, and if you can't do something it's generally not really worth (me) doing.

CORed · 17th December 2012, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp

I think freedom refers to software freedom, in the sense that Android is open source, but apple isn't.

Compare it to the discussions over Windows vs. Linux.

There really isn't anything in the desktop world that corresponds to Apple's lockdown on software availability. Windows is a proprietary OS, whereas Linux is open source, but Microsoft does not put any restrictions on what software you can install on your PC. As a matter of fact, the enormous catalog of available software, proprietary and pay, proprietary and free as in beer, and open source, is the main thing that has kept me using Windows as my primary desktop OS. Even on the Mac, you are not restricted to installing only Apple-approved software.

I have an iPhone. It is, for me, a viable product only because I jailbroke it. However, Jailbreaks take longer to become availble with each new IOS version and each new piece of hardware, so I'm not sure that is going to remain an option for IOS devices. I recently purchased an Android tablet (Nexus 7). I seriously doubt that I will ever buy another IOS device. As far as I'm concerned, it's my device and I will damn well do what I want with it. I do not need or want Apple's training wheels. I'm willing to accept the increased risk that the device or data will be damaged by malware or my own ineptitude in exchange for that freedom. Others, such as the OP, may prefer the security of IOS to the freedom of Android, and that is their choice to make. Religious wars about hardware platforms, OS's or other software (VI vs. EMACS, or Word vs. WordPerfect, anybody?) are silly. Use what suits your needs the best, but your needs may not be a good model for other people's needs.

17th December 2012, 05:46 AM	#41
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,561	Originally Posted by WildCat My Android OS was just upgraded to Jelly Bean for free. You understand you are the exception, not the rule on Android upgrades, correct ? (also that it took almost 6 months for you to get that update)
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17th December 2012, 05:57 AM	#42
PixyMisa Persnickety Insect Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Sunny Munuvia Posts: 14,941	Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp Didn't know that. Good policy. Of course, the lifetime of the device expires whenever they say it does. Example: Want to upgrade your iPad 1 to iOS 6? Sorry, the life of your device just expired.
	__________________ Free blogs for skeptics... And everyone else. mee.nu What, in the Holy Name of Gzortch, are you people doing?!?!!? - TGHO

17th December 2012, 06:00 AM	#43
PixyMisa Persnickety Insect Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Sunny Munuvia Posts: 14,941	Anyway, this is what Android freedom means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_...-based_bundles Wake me when there's a Humble iOS Bundle.
	__________________ Free blogs for skeptics... And everyone else. mee.nu What, in the Holy Name of Gzortch, are you people doing?!?!!? - TGHO

17th December 2012, 06:04 AM	#45
SatansMaleVoiceChoir Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,317	Originally Posted by PixyMisa Of course, the lifetime of the device expires whenever they say it does. Example: Want to upgrade your iPad 1 to iOS 6? Sorry, the life of your device just expired. Oh, do all Android devices run the newest version of the OS regardless of their age? So, if someone owns an iPad 1, then it doesn't work anymore? Apple have remotely killed all iPad 1's? Does that mean that when iOS 6 was released people should have just thrown them in the bin? Just looking at eBay, and the going rate for an iPad 1 32GB is easily over £150 on average. Not bad for a nearly 3 year-old peice of hardware in this day and age; especially one that's ready for the bin, eh?
	__________________ The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. - Joseph Joubert Do not believe hastily. - Ovid There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it. - William James

17th December 2012, 06:08 AM	#46
PixyMisa Persnickety Insect Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Sunny Munuvia Posts: 14,941	Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir Oh, do all Android devices run the newest version of the OS regardless of their age? The point is not what Android does, the point is what Apple doesn't.
	__________________ Free blogs for skeptics... And everyone else. mee.nu What, in the Holy Name of Gzortch, are you people doing?!?!!? - TGHO

17th December 2012, 06:02 AM	#44
Alan Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 3,658	I used iOS on iPod touches for two years for hours a day until recently. And have had Android on phones for almost as long. I am experienced with both. I don't find the solution without a problem characterisation to be good. Things that work satisfactorily can be made better. I find some things along the lines of what I've listed to do that. And I only offered a couple of examples of customisation possibilities. And I'm not saying that Android is better than iOS for everyone, or for you. And I disagree that most of the customisable things are built into iOS.

17th December 2012, 06:11 AM	#47
SatansMaleVoiceChoir Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,317	Originally Posted by PixyMisa Anyway, this is what Android freedom means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_...-based_bundles Wake me when there's a Humble iOS Bundle. So 'Android Freedom' means "I can buy a bundle of Apps all at the same time, regardless of how many of them I like"? Fantastic! Kind of like buying a compilation Album because it's got two songs on it you like, instead of just buying the two songs? Yeah, that's freedom!
	__________________ The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. - Joseph Joubert Do not believe hastily. - Ovid There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it. - William James

17th December 2012, 06:20 AM	#48
SatansMaleVoiceChoir Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,317	Originally Posted by PixyMisa The point is not what Android does, the point is what Apple doesn't. Even when Android doesn't do it either?
	__________________ The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. - Joseph Joubert Do not believe hastily. - Ovid There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it. - William James

17th December 2012, 06:25 AM	#49
Alan Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 3,658	Considering you can pay what you want, and you don't need to download what you don't want... It would be great to have a pleasant discussion on this topic instead of one about point scoring.

17th December 2012, 06:26 AM	#50
SatansMaleVoiceChoir Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,317	Originally Posted by Alan I used iOS on iPod touches for two years for hours a day until recently. And have had Android on phones for almost as long. I am experienced with both. I don't find the solution without a problem characterisation to be good. Things that work satisfactorily can be made better. I find some things along the lines of what I've listed to do that. It's horses for courses Alan. I'm more concerned with the people who actively go out of their way to be as vocally critical about iOS and iOS device owners as possible. They trumpet this 'Freedom' as loud as they can on any message board where the subject comes up, but none can adequately explain what this 'freedom' actually consists of. Things can be made better, but for me, redesigning a keyboard isn't 'better'. Reinventing the wheel, doesn't necessarily make it better. Originally Posted by Alan And I only offered a couple of examples of customisation possibilities. And I'm not saying that Android is better than iOS for everyone, or for you. And I disagree that most of the customisable things are built into iOS. This is why I keep asking for specific examples from people who tell me I'm not 'free', or Android is better because Apple are 'The Man, and they want to keep you down and control you, dude!"
	__________________ The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. - Joseph Joubert Do not believe hastily. - Ovid There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it. - William James

17th December 2012, 06:28 AM	#51
SatansMaleVoiceChoir Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,317	Originally Posted by Alan Considering you can pay what you want, and you don't need to download what you don't want... It would be great to have a pleasant discussion on this topic instead of one about point scoring. To be fair, Alan - you don't seem the point-scoring type, and I am more than willing to discuss this with you. I don't think you were the type of person this post was for, anyway - as explained above.
	__________________ The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. - Joseph Joubert Do not believe hastily. - Ovid There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it. - William James

17th December 2012, 06:30 AM	#52
Alan Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 3,658	Android has a worse situation in terms of updates because of the way it's distributed. That's well known. But correcting a claim about iOS updates for the life of the device being followed up by an android quoque didn't seem good to me. EDIT: I will respond to the posts you just made after I've gone to sleep as it's past 1:30 am. Have a good day.
	Last edited by Alan; 17th December 2012 at 06:36 AM.

17th December 2012, 06:39 AM	#53
SatansMaleVoiceChoir Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,317	Fair enough, Alan! Have a good sleep! Originally Posted by Alan Android has a worse situation in terms of updates because of the way it's distributed. That's well known. But correcting a claim about iOS updates for the life of the device being followed up by an android quoque didn't seem good to me. If you're referring to this exchange: Quote: Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir Oh, do all Android devices run the newest version of the OS regardless of their age? Quote: The point is not what Android does, the point is what Apple doesn't. Then the hypocrisy is not on my part. Pixymisa insinuated that Android is superior because Apple phase out their products with iOS updates, where Android do exactly the same, and I pointed this out. She then tried to avoid that by handwaving the question away saying it's 'not about what Android does'.
	__________________ The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. - Joseph Joubert Do not believe hastily. - Ovid There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it. - William James

17th December 2012, 06:55 AM	#54
merentha Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 441	Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir Things can be made better, but for me, redesigning a keyboard isn't 'better'. Reinventing the wheel, doesn't necessarily make it better. Redesigning the keyboard is more like moving from hard wooden wheels to light metal spoked heels with tyres. They are both functionally the same, but the latter gives a less bumpy ride. I am fine with my stock keyboard on my Sony tablet, but prefer Swiftkey for my SIII phone. I am glad there was the option to get a keyboard that best fits my needs and typing habits. YMMV. Similarly, I love the mail, calendar and tasks widgets that allow me to organise my day with one glance on the home screen without having to load each app separately. Many Android owners may not do the same, but I appreciate the option. I know many iPhone owners love to harp on Siri, but they forget the world is bigger than the US. Where I am from (Singapore), Siri is still poorly implemented. As for the ability to install apps from outside the Google Play, for the longest time, my favourite app for reading manga, Mango, was not listed in Google Play until recently. But I had the freedom to install it for my Android (and also Blackberry) machines. And no, I don't think it is available on iOS yet.
merentha Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 441

17th December 2012, 07:03 AM	#55
SatansMaleVoiceChoir Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,317	Originally Posted by merentha Redesigning the keyboard is more like moving from hard wooden wheels to light metal spoked heels with tyres. They are both functionally the same, but the latter gives a less bumpy ride. I am fine with my stock keyboard on my Sony tablet, but prefer Swiftkey for my SIII phone. I am glad there was the option to get a keyboard that best fits my needs and typing habits. YMMV. Similarly, I love the mail, calendar and tasks widgets that allow me to organise my day with one glance on the home screen without having to load each app separately. Many Android owners may not do the same, but I appreciate the option. As you say, YMMV. It's no hardship for me at all to open a seperate App for email, messages, etc. If I want to see them all at a glance, then I have the notification centre. Originally Posted by merentha I know many iPhone owners love to harp on Siri, but they forget the world is bigger than the US. Where I am from (Singapore), Siri is still poorly implemented. That's a shame, because it is really good. Originally Posted by merentha As for the ability to install apps from outside the Google Play, for the longest time, my favourite app for reading manga, Mango, was not listed in Google Play until recently. But I had the freedom to install it for my Android (and also Blackberry) machines. And no, I don't think it is available on iOS yet. Obviously, any App I download on my iPhone is also available on my iPad. Any film or song I download on my iPhone is available on my Apple TV, iMAc, or iPad - or any combination of those!
	__________________ The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. - Joseph Joubert Do not believe hastily. - Ovid There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it. - William James

17th December 2012, 07:36 AM	#56
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,449	Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir Frequently. I suppose it would be an issue if I was going caving, or exploring the wilderness and had a sudden need to watch 'Krull' on my iPad. Given that all the hotels or places I stay at all have wifi then I'm pretty much covered. If I can't get wifi, then it's 3G. If I can't get 3G then I'd rely on internal storage until I could. Not that this has happened yet. Good luck getting any sort of streaming audio from the cloud while traveling between cities. Like when you're in your car, not in a hotel room.

17th December 2012, 07:45 AM	#57
Fast Eddie B Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 1,122	Originally Posted by WildCat Good luck getting any sort of streaming audio from the cloud while traveling between cities. Like when you're in your car, not in a hotel room. FWIW, NOT being able to stream audio is for us the exception rather than the rule. We routinely listen to Pandora on the road on our iPhones with very few dropouts. Also have iTunes Match, which gives us access to our entire (substantial) iTunes library. Yes, using AT&T there's a fairly long stretch between our N GA home and Knoxville, TN, a trip we often make. But, in general, if we even have access to the Edge network - which is most of the time - we can stream audio. Back to the OP topic - Apple and iOs seems to work for a lot of people and makes them (generally) happy. Android also seems to work for a lot of people and makes them (generally) happy. Can't we all just get along?
	Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 17th December 2012 at 08:24 AM.

17th December 2012, 07:59 AM	#58
SatansMaleVoiceChoir Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,317	Originally Posted by WildCat Good luck getting any sort of streaming audio from the cloud while traveling between cities. Like when you're in your car, not in a hotel room. Thanks! Don't think I'll need it - hasn't been an issue yet, apart from sometimes during train travel. Doesn't matter anyway, because I have all my main favourites in internal storage. So unless I'm without any kind of signal for about 2 hours while driving, I've nothing to worry about.
	__________________ The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. - Joseph Joubert Do not believe hastily. - Ovid There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it. - William James

17th December 2012, 08:03 AM	#59
merentha Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 441	Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir As you say, YMMV. It's no hardship for me at all to open a seperate App for email, messages, etc. If I want to see them all at a glance, then I have the notification centre. The widgets have more info than the notifications centre, e.g. I can see my calendar schedule for the day, or the tasks in progress but not necessarily due that day. Quote: Obviously, any App I download on my iPhone is also available on my iPad. Any film or song I download on my iPhone is available on my Apple TV, iMAc, or iPad - or any combination of those! It works the same on Android too. Any app I download from Google Play for my phone is also available on my tablet. Don't see what this has to do with the point I was making that I wasn't tied to whatever is available on Google Play for app choices. FYI, none of my devices are rooted either. An iPhone would require me to jailbreak the device if I want to install apps that are blocked by Apple from the Appstore for various reasons, e.g. dev not willing to submit to 30% perpetual extortion for subscription services (Skydrive), or Apple censorship.
merentha Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 441

17th December 2012, 08:10 AM	#60
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 3,445	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B Back to the OP topic - Apple and iOs seems to work for a lot of people and makes them (generally) happy. Android also seems to work for a lot of people and makes the (generally) happy. It always reminds me of discussions in car forums about whether a car should have three pedals or two: For those who want three, three works best; for those who only want two, two works best. Everything else is just users trying to justify their preference. I find it funny how important it is for us humans to justify our preferences to complete strangers.
	__________________ shift key currently inoperative. sorry for the inconvenience. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Jonah Baldwin: Talk to her, dad. She's a doctor. Sam Baldwin: Of what? Her first name could be Doctor. - Sleepless in Seattle

17th December 2012, 08:15 AM	#61
SatansMaleVoiceChoir Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,317	Originally Posted by merentha The widgets have more info than the notifications centre, e.g. I can see my calendar schedule for the day, or the tasks in progress but not necessarily due that day. Is that useful to someone - I suppose so. Would I use it? No. I don't mind clicking on an App to get in-depth information. Originally Posted by merentha It works the same on Android too. Any app I download from Google Play for my phone is also available on my tablet. Don't see what this has to do with the point I was making that I wasn't tied to whatever is available on Google Play for app choices. FYI, none of my devices are rooted either. An iPhone would require me to jailbreak the device if I want to install apps that are blocked by Apple from the Appstore for various reasons, e.g. dev not willing to submit to 30% perpetual extortion for subscription services (Skydrive), or Apple censorship. Oh I see, I'm TIED to the App Store. This is one of the points I'm talking about just because I'm limited to only using the App Store does not mean the Apps I can download are limited. There is nothing I would want to do - or could reasonably expect to do - on my phone that I can't get some kind of App for. I had this App on my phone for a while, but I found I didn't really use the icons I created (Yes! Created shortcuts on an unjailbroken iOS device! ), does this kind of customisation count as 'freedom', even though I got it through the 'evil' App Store?: http://lifehacker.com/5859499/icon-p...tings-and-more Apparently since the update to iOS 6 the developers haven't bothered to update it, so the App no longer works. That's not Apple's fault. The point is, 'Freedom!'
	__________________ The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. - Joseph Joubert Do not believe hastily. - Ovid There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it. - William James

17th December 2012, 08:24 AM	#62
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,976	Originally Posted by merentha It works the same on Android too. Any app I download from Google Play for my phone is also available on my tablet. What about the apps you didn't download from Google Play; what about those apps you had the "freedom" to buy and download from anywhere on the web? Get to download those to each of your devices too without having to pay again each time?
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

17th December 2012, 09:07 AM	#63
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,561	Originally Posted by merentha The widgets have more info than the notifications centre, e.g. I can see my calendar schedule for the day, or the tasks in progress but not necessarily due that day. It works the same on Android too. Any app I download from Google Play for my phone is also available on my tablet. Don't see what this has to do with the point I was making that I wasn't tied to whatever is available on Google Play for app choices. FYI, none of my devices are rooted either. An iPhone would require me to jailbreak the device if I want to install apps that are blocked by Apple from the Appstore for various reasons, e.g. dev not willing to submit to 30% perpetual extortion for subscription services (Skydrive), or Apple censorship. Since you bring up google play, I think this tu quoque is relevant: http://play.google.com/about/develop...nt-policy.html
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,561

17th December 2012, 09:11 AM	#64
SatansMaleVoiceChoir Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,317	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis Since you bring up google play, I think this tu quoque is relevant: http://play.google.com/about/develop...nt-policy.html Ah... the policy document of 'Freedom'!
	__________________ The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. - Joseph Joubert Do not believe hastily. - Ovid There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it. - William James

17th December 2012, 09:12 AM	#65
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,561	Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir Is that useful to someone - I suppose so. Would I use it? No. I don't mind clicking on an App to get in-depth information. You can't keep brushing off every point with 'but I don't need it'. Widgets and home screen customization are things that android users can do easily and and iOS users can't (in the same way). It's a valid example of 'freedom' that android enjoys that iOS doesn't. Now, I don't think it's a particularly good thing for android, but that's a different argument.
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,561

17th December 2012, 09:13 AM	#66
SatansMaleVoiceChoir Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,317	Originally Posted by Checkmite What about the apps you didn't download from Google Play; what about those apps you had the "freedom" to buy and download from anywhere on the web? Get to download those to each of your devices too without having to pay again each time? So Google Play is just like the App Store, except it has less apps and they ask you nicely not to upload viruses, spam, malware and spyware, instead of actively preventing it? Wow! Freedom!
	__________________ The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. - Joseph Joubert Do not believe hastily. - Ovid There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it. - William James

17th December 2012, 09:15 AM	#67
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,561	Originally Posted by WildCat Good luck getting any sort of streaming audio from the cloud while traveling between cities. Like when you're in your car, not in a hotel room. Have you not heard of cellular data ? My iPhone, for example, can access the Internet from a car.
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,561

17th December 2012, 09:23 AM	#68
SatansMaleVoiceChoir Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,317	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis You can't keep brushing off every point with 'but I don't need it'. Widgets and home screen customization are things that android users can do easily and and iOS users can't (in the same way). It's a valid example of 'freedom' that android enjoys that iOS doesn't. Now, I don't think it's a particularly good thing for android, but that's a different argument. The fact that I don't need it is central to my point. I am also speaking for the VAST majority of my friends who own iPhones - people who can't 'be bothered' to use Siri, or bookmarks, or shortcuts, and will quite happily do something manually. I, and the friends I mention, am generally not impressed by a feature that will save me - what? - a whole TWO to THREE seconds at best over the same functionality in iOS. There's convenience, and then there's 'improvements' which don't really make any significant impact. I also forget some iOS features as well; merentha mentioned widgets on the homescreen, and I mentioned the notification centre. Merentha then pointed out that they could see their whole schedule, not just a notification. What I forgot to add was that if I swipe on the notification it will launch the app and show me in depth. Does this much-trumpeted 'Android Freedom' really boil down to my having to swipe my homescreen to get the same effect as an Android Device? I'm fairly sure that in order to see your entire schedule for the day from the homescreen, you'd have to touch it, or make a gesture, or unlock your phone? Whereas I can achieve the same thing with one swipe from the lock screen.
	__________________ The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. - Joseph Joubert Do not believe hastily. - Ovid There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it. - William James Last edited by SatansMaleVoiceChoir; 17th December 2012 at 09:26 AM.

17th December 2012, 09:25 AM	#69
SatansMaleVoiceChoir Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,317	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis Have you not heard of cellular data ? My iPhone, for example, can access the Internet from a car. I think Wildcat was thinking of big cellular data holes between cities. Not something we tend to worry about in the UK, as we're fairly small, and distances between population centres isn't much.
	__________________ The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. - Joseph Joubert Do not believe hastily. - Ovid There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it. - William James

17th December 2012, 09:35 AM	#70
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,561	Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir The fact that I don't need it is central to my point. I am also speaking for the VAST majority of my friends who own iPhones - people who can't 'be bothered' to use Siri, or bookmarks, or shortcuts, and will quite happily do something manually. This goes back to my point about the vocal minority. A would guess a majority of android users don't a) know they are running android b) if they know, don't know what version c) don't download different home screens or modify the default settings in much of any way Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir I, and the friends I mention, am generally not impressed by a feature that will save me - what? - a whole TWO to THREE seconds at best over the same functionality in iOS. There's convenience, and then there's 'improvements' which don't really make any significant impact. Nonetheless, it's a small advantage. Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir I also forget some iOS features as well; merentha mentioned widgets on the homescreen, and I mentioned the notification centre. Merentha then pointed out that they could see their whole schedule, not just a notification. What I forgot to add was that if I swipe on the notification it will launch the app and show me in depth. Does this much-trumpeted 'Android Freedom' really boil down to my having to swipe my homescreen to get the same effect as an Android Device? I'm fairly sure that in order to see your entire schedule for the day from the homescreen, you'd have to touch it, or make a gesture, or unlock your phone? Whereas I can achieve the same thing with one swipe from the lock screen. Yes, but the freedom is android developers are not locked into apples notification API, for example. So yes, the fact that I can have a live widget updating information on my lock screen, for example, is something that may be of benefit to many users. Or choosing the default application that opens with an action. We iOS users don't get to have address book open a location in the map application of our choice, do we ?
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,561

17th December 2012, 09:49 AM	#71
SatansMaleVoiceChoir Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,317	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis This goes back to my point about the vocal minority. A would guess a majority of android users don't a) know they are running android b) if they know, don't know what version c) don't download different home screens or modify the default settings in much of any way Same as the vast majority of iOS users I know. You and I realise this, but it doesn't stop the (minority) of Android users who enjoy actively running these people down for their choice of device - like it was done as a personal affront. Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis Nonetheless, it's a small advantage. It is, but not one that outweighs the benefits of owning an Apple device, IMO. Am I going to give up everything I enjoy about iOS and associated devices because of a difference of a second, or one less swipe on a touchscreen? Nope. Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis Yes, but the freedom is android developers are not locked into apples notification API, for example. So yes, the fact that I can have a live widget updating information on my lock screen, for example, is something that may be of benefit to many users. I'm sure it would, but I can achieve the same effect from my lock screen with one swipe of a finger. The difference is negligible. Whether or not you would want your entire days schedule being displayed on your lock screen available to anyone who picks up your phone, is another matter entirely. Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis Or choosing the default application that opens with an action. We iOS users don't get to have address book open a location in the map application of our choice, do we ? No, but again, why would I want to? If I say "Take me to 'Contact Name'" into Siri, it shows me exactly on the map where that contact is. What difference does which app map I'm using make?
	__________________ The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. - Joseph Joubert Do not believe hastily. - Ovid There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it. - William James

17th December 2012, 09:55 AM	#72
merentha Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 441	Originally Posted by Checkmite What about the apps you didn't download from Google Play; what about those apps you had the "freedom" to buy and download from anywhere on the web? Get to download those to each of your devices too without having to pay again each time? No idea. The non-Google Play apps I had were free. Anyway, I didn't realise this thread was meant to be an exercise for the OP to shoot down every example of Android freedom. Some folks are happy with what Apple offers, and are also invested enough enough in the Apple ecosystem that I would recommend they continue to stick with iOS. OTOH I made a conscious choice to go with Android when shopping for a new phone way back in the dark days of Android 2.1 because I knew I won't be likely to get a Mac and didn't want to deal with iTunes on my PC, so there was no advantage for me to be tied to Apple's walled garden. Also, I like a choice of competing handsets to choose one that fits my needs, not what Apple determines I should need. I am not religious about the brand. My first was a Motorola Droid X, and now it is a Samsung SIII. Both have removable batteries and memory card slots. Once I am due for recontract and a better phone comes along that fits my requirements and aesthetics, I'll likely switch. There is a price to freedom. Apps may not universally work well for all Android models. I will also need to be a little more vigilant and intelligent about which apps are trustworthy enough to install. But these are little minuses I can live with, just as iOS users who can live with not having widgets. There are folks who are happy to never leave their little heaven in suburbia, and there are folks who love to travel on extreme adventures, roughing out in wild jungles and harsh deserts. Neither are right or wrong. Clarify misconceptions, but there is no need to ridicule the other side.
merentha Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 441

17th December 2012, 10:03 AM	#73
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,561	Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir No, but again, why would I want to? If I say "Take me to 'Contact Name'" into Siri, it shows me exactly on the map where that contact is. What difference does which app map I'm using make? Because I might prefer to use google maps instead of apple ? Or a map app I bought in the app store ? I also would like to specify Atomic web browser as my default browser, not safari. Or GoodReader as my default PDF reader. Not being able to specify a default handler is big deal to me. It means jumping through many more hoops than on Android, for example. The fact that dropbox isn't accessible systemwide to all my apps would be another example. Sideloading apps from any source I want without jumping through hoops would be yet another example. All of the above are android freedoms that I wish iOS had. There really are no workarounds to the above - you just can't do those things. It's not a deal breaker for me or anything, but I would like to do those things.
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,561

17th December 2012, 10:04 AM	#74
merentha Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 441	The SIII allows me to customise which apps I can launch from locked screen. As for the calendar widget, I only need to unlock my phone. The schedule list is there on my home screen, summarised. No need to launch the full calendar app and scroll down the empty time blocks in between items.
merentha Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 441

17th December 2012, 10:08 AM	#75
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,561	Originally Posted by merentha No idea. The non-Google Play apps I had were free. Anyway, I didn't realise this thread was meant to be an exercise for the OP to shoot down every example of Android freedom. Some folks are happy with what Apple offers, and are also invested enough enough in the Apple ecosystem that I would recommend they continue to stick with iOS. OTOH I made a conscious choice to go with Android when shopping for a new phone way back in the dark days of Android 2.1 because I knew I won't be likely to get a Mac and didn't want to deal with iTunes on my PC, so there was no advantage for me to be tied to Apple's walled garden. Also, I like a choice of competing handsets to choose one that fits my needs, not what Apple determines I should need. I am not religious about the brand. My first was a Motorola Droid X, and now it is a Samsung SIII. Both have removable batteries and memory card slots. Once I am due for recontract and a better phone comes along that fits my requirements and aesthetics, I'll likely switch. There is a price to freedom. Apps may not universally work well for all Android models. I will also need to be a little more vigilant and intelligent about which apps are trustworthy enough to install. But these are little minuses I can live with, just as iOS users who can live with not having widgets. There are folks who are happy to never leave their little heaven in suburbia, and there are folks who love to travel on extreme adventures, roughing out in wild jungles and harsh deserts. Neither are right or wrong. Clarify misconceptions, but there is no need to ridicule the other side. That's a very unfair interpretation. Apple does not try to be everything to everyone. Apple determines what features it's device and OS will support, and likely takes into consideration the wants and needs of average consumer, and its own business interests. If all of that means the intended audience doesn't include you, that certainly doesn't mean that apple is trying to dictate to you what you need. That's silly.
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,561