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Old 17th December 2012, 10:48 AM   #81
SatansMaleVoiceChoir
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
There really isn't anything in the desktop world that corresponds to Apple's lockdown on software availability. Windows is a proprietary OS, whereas Linux is open source, but Microsoft does not put any restrictions on what software you can install on your PC. As a matter of fact, the enormous catalog of available softwar, proprietary and pay, proprietary and free as in beer, and open source, is the main thing that has kept me using Windows as my primary desktop OS. Even on the Mac, you are not restricted to installing only Apple-approved software.

I have an iPhone. I recently purchased an Android tablet (Nexus 7). I seriously doubt that I will ever buy another IOS device. As far as I'm concerned, it's my device and I will damn well do what I want with it. I'm willing to accept the increased risk that the device or data will be damaged by malware or my own ineptitude in exchange for that freedom. Others, such as the OP, may prefer the security of IOS to the freedom of Android, and that is their choice to make. Religious wars about hardware platforms, OS's or other software (VI vs. EMACS, or Word vs. WordPerfect, anybody?) are silly. Use what suits your needs the best, but your needs may not be a good model for other people's needs.
See where I have bolded? Define 'freedom to do what I want with it', which is what you're saying.

The hilited part I agree with, I'm just tired of people treating me like some gullible sheep because I bought Apple. Not necessessarily on this forum, but I asked the question here in the hope of a better calibre of response.
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Old 17th December 2012, 10:51 AM   #82
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Is the iphone even up to a quarter-share of cell phone sales yet?
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Old 17th December 2012, 10:59 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by BOATGOD View Post
Is the iphone even up to a quarter-share of cell phone sales yet?
That has what to do with the OP, exactly? And who really cares?
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:06 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
It's not - I'm waiting for someone to demonstrate what 'Android Freedom' actually means. Bar a few less swipes needed or the odd second here and there saved in a few applications to achieve the same effect as in iOS, I'm still waiting.
Can you copy files (any file you want) from your PC to your IOS device from anywhere with 3G or wifi access? If your IOS device isn't jailbroken the answer is no. Even on a jailbroken IOS device, I haven't been able to find a GUI SFTP client, which means I have to resort to terminal and command line, a very tedious way to get anything done on a smartphone touchscreen. I'm sure you will tell me that you have no need to do this, and therefore it's not important to anybody to do this. As far as "a few less swipes or the odd second here and there", some of us like efficiency (and TBH possibly waste more time looking for the perfect app than we would using the less than perfect one that came with the phone).

You like IOS, and find that it does everything you want it to do. That's fine. Keep using it.
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:14 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
See where I have bolded? Define 'freedom to do what I want with it', which is what you're saying.

The hilited part I agree with, I'm just tired of people treating me like some gullible sheep because I bought Apple. Not necessessarily on this forum, but I asked the question here in the hope of a better calibre of response.
It's been defined for you by several posters. The fact that you don't find any of the examples cited to be useful doesn't mean that other people don't have a use for them. I don't think you're a sheep for using Apple products. Apple makes good products. Their locked-down, restricted model makes it easy for them to make sure that everything works right, as long as what you want to do corresponds to what they think you should be able to do. Freedom has it's disadvantages. It tends to be messy and chaotic. Totalitarian states usually have lower crime rates than democracies with civil liberties. That's an imperfect analogy to be sure, but if you don't get it, I'm not sure I can explain it to you.
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:18 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Can you copy files (any file you want) from your PC to your IOS device from anywhere with 3G or wifi access? If your IOS device isn't jailbroken the answer is no.
Well, you did say "any file I WANT"... So the answer is "Yes". Many times at work I have emailed a PDF, XLS, Word Doc, PPT presentation to/from my phone at work. Pictures, photos, video, voice memo... Etc, etc.

Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Even on a jailbroken IOS device, I haven't been able to find a GUI SFTP client, which means I have to resort to terminal and command line, a very tedious way to get anything done on a smartphone touchscreen. I'm sure you will tell me that you have no need to do this, and therefore it's not important to anybody to do this.
I'll stop you there; Firstly, I have never said that if something isn't important to me then it isn't to anyone else. You seem like a reasonable chap - let's not go down that route.

Secondly, I don't know what a SFTP client is, so I couldn't possibly comment.

Originally Posted by CORed View Post
As far as "a few less swipes or the odd second here and there", some of us like efficiency (and TBH possibly waste more time looking for the perfect app than we would using the less than perfect one that came with the phone).

You like IOS, and find that it does everything you want it to do. That's fine. Keep using it.
It does, and I will. That was never in question.
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:18 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
That has what to do with the OP, exactly? And who really cares?
I think the gullible sheep care...
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:20 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
It's been defined for you by several posters. The fact that you don't find any of the examples cited to be useful doesn't mean that other people don't have a use for them. I don't think you're a sheep for using Apple products. Apple makes good products. Their locked-down, restricted model makes it easy for them to make sure that everything works right, as long as what you want to do corresponds to what they think you should be able to do. Freedom has it's disadvantages. It tends to be messy and chaotic. Totalitarian states usually have lower crime rates than democracies with civil liberties. That's an imperfect analogy to be sure, but if you don't get it, I'm not sure I can explain it to you.
Like I said - let's not go down that road.

Your whole argument is based on something I have never said...
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:24 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by BOATGOD View Post
I think the gullible sheep care...
Well, I don't particularly care, but for all those Apple owners who equate sales of their preferred device with self-esteem can at least console themselves with the fact that Apple is the worlds richest company, despite sales figures. Or they can look here: http://mobile.informationweek.com/80...adcd45940dcc/?
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:26 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Have you not heard of cellular data ? My iPhone, for example, can access the Internet from a car.
See how well that works driving across the country.

In my experience you only get data in metro ereas, when you're between cities forget about it. This site has coverage maps for most all carriers: http://sensorly.com/

I don't care which one you pick, lots of dead air on those maps.
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:34 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
So what are we saying here? If I bought a device running an Android OS, this entitles me to download it onto any other device, like a Windows phone, or an iPhone?
Does buying an iPhone entitle you to load iOS onto a Windows Phone?

Nope.

However, I can download Android for free from the internet, and put it on any device that can support it.

http://source.android.com/about/index.html

You're welcome.
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:38 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
See how well that works driving across the country.

In my experience you only get data in metro ereas, when you're between cities forget about it. This site has coverage maps for most all carriers: http://sensorly.com/

I don't care which one you pick, lots of dead air on those maps.
Well, a bit off-topic for the thread, but those gaps are getting filled in. About a year and a half ago, I was quite surprised to find 3G service (on AT&T) to within about 5 miles of my favorite fishing spot, out in a pretty remote area of Wyoming. The campground, I use, however, is still out of reach, and that's the way I like it. The previous year the closest I could get any kind of service was 50 miles away. Even the closest (very small) town was completely dead.

Last edited by CORed; 17th December 2012 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:42 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
...snip...

As far as freedom goes, I cannot think of a single thing that an Android device can do that I cannot do with my iPhone and would actually want to do(personally speaking).

...snip...
As far as I am aware it usually refers to not being tied in to the Apple eco system and the "lock down" approach that Apple has taken. So an example of the former - a user could email another user an app on android to install without any difficulty and am example of the later a user could decide to default to a totally different keyboard app (which I don't think you can do on an iOS phone). Other examples are if you don't like the way your phone operates with the home screens and the like you can install a different "launcher", choose to have a different gallery app as a default.
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:55 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As far as I am aware it usually refers to not being tied in to the Apple eco system and the "lock down" approach that Apple has taken. So an example of the former - a user could email another user an app on android to install without any difficulty and am example of the later a user could decide to default to a totally different keyboard app (which I don't think you can do on an iOS phone). Other examples are if you don't like the way your phone operates with the home screens and the like you can install a different "launcher", choose to have a different gallery app as a default.
You can do a lot of that sort of thing on a jailbroken IOS device, but not on a stock device. Interesting you should mention the different gallery app, as I just recently did exactly that on my Nexus 7. The stock gallery app lets you sort your photos in any order you like, as long as it's newest first. I don't like newest first, and it seems really bizarre to me that the stock app doesn't offer any choice of sort order. That seems pretty basic.
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:58 AM   #95
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The "freedom" offered by Android has been explained using some good examples from various posters in this thread.

At this point, I guess I am not sure where the difficulty in understanding Android "freedom" is coming from.

The ability to freely customize your Android experience, from compiling your own OS elements to installing a custom keyboard app, is the very essence of Android "freedom".

As has been mentioned time and time again, this "freedom" does not by default make Android a better or worse OS than Apple's iOS...it is just different.
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Old 17th December 2012, 12:15 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
But the end result is the same. You'll see a map with a pin on it showing your contact location. I appreciate what you're saying; at least you'd have the choice, but is it really choice or the illusion of choice if the end result is still the same?
No, it's not the same end result. All mapping applications are not equal.

Apple forces the default to their application. I understand why, but I would rather it be configurable.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Again, it may be just me - and people like me - but "Look - I can choose my own web browser!" isn't a draw for me, or many average people I know. Web Browsers browse webs - does it allow me to see the webpage I want? Yes. Then it's a web browser. Does my device read PDFs if I want it to? Yes. The it's all good. Would a different PDF Reader make a drastic difference to the end product?
I prefer Atomic Web Browser to safari for a variety of reasons. There must be a reason there are so many browser choices in the play store ... maybe all browsers aren't equal ?

But yes, when used throughout the day, not being able to use my preferred apps as default makes a big enough difference that it irritates me.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I use a combination of iCloud and emailing documents to myself.
Which is a workaround, because dropbox would work just fine, if allowed.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I don't know - maybe it's because I'm not a 'power-user', and neither are the vast majority of people I know, but none of those things are a dealbreaker for me and many others, and certainly don't mean 'freedom'. I don't even know what 'side-loading apps' means!
Side-loading means loading apps from places other than the app store. It can be done on iOS, but not with the ease of Android.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I find there's a workaround for most things in iOS, and if you can't do something it's generally not really worth (me) doing.
That's great - those are all things that you have to workaround because Apple says so, not because of technical limitations. It doesn't keep me from preferring iOS, but I can certainly recognize some of what some of that Android 'freedom' is.

Last edited by TheL8Elvis; 17th December 2012 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 17th December 2012, 12:16 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp View Post
Does buying an iPhone entitle you to load iOS onto a Windows Phone?

Nope.

However, I can download Android for free from the internet, and put it on any device that can support it.

http://source.android.com/about/index.html

You're welcome.
So what's the point? If I buy an Android device, surely it's got Android on it? Do phones even come without an OS?
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Old 17th December 2012, 12:18 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
See how well that works driving across the country.

In my experience you only get data in metro ereas, when you're between cities forget about it. This site has coverage maps for most all carriers: http://sensorly.com/

I don't care which one you pick, lots of dead air on those maps.
As soon as I leave town I lose cell service. I drove to Whitehorse, 2500kms round trip, with no cell service, no data, nothing. iCloud would be useless.
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Old 17th December 2012, 12:19 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by BOATGOD View Post
Is the iphone even up to a quarter-share of cell phone sales yet?
No, but it was up to 75% of the profits ...

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57...phone-profits/

Apple holds only a 9 percent share of the global mobile phone market, but it grabbed 75 percent of the industry's overall profits last quarter, according to data from Asymco.
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Old 17th December 2012, 12:21 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
See how well that works driving across the country.

In my experience you only get data in metro ereas, when you're between cities forget about it. This site has coverage maps for most all carriers: http://sensorly.com/

I don't care which one you pick, lots of dead air on those maps.
OK, you win. In the contrived scenario where you can only stream your music live, you will hit dead spots.

In the real world, you can download things ahead of time when bandwidth is available.
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Old 17th December 2012, 12:29 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As far as I am aware it usually refers to not being tied in to the Apple eco system and the "lock down" approach that Apple has taken. So an example of the former - a user could email another user an app on android to install without any difficulty and am example of the later a user could decide to default to a totally different keyboard app (which I don't think you can do on an iOS phone). Other examples are if you don't like the way your phone operates with the home screens and the like you can install a different "launcher", choose to have a different gallery app as a default.
Again, just me, but even the three people I know with Android phones couldn't care less about being able to download a customisable keyboard. Just because something is highly customisable doesn't mean 'useful', and it doesn't mean people are going to use it. The guys I know with Android phones bought the phone - not the OS.

Originally Posted by Wangler View Post
The "freedom" offered by Android has been explained using some good examples from various posters in this thread.

At this point, I guess I am not sure where the difficulty in understanding Android "freedom" is coming from.
Because it's not really freedom, is it? You cannot do ANYTHING you want to Android, or with Android.

Originally Posted by Wangler View Post
The ability to freely customize your Android experience, from compiling your own OS elements to installing a custom keyboard app, is the very essence of Android "freedom".
Tweaking 'elements' of the OS and installing a custom keyboard - that's how you define 'freedom', is it?

Originally Posted by Wangler View Post
As has been mentioned time and time again, this "freedom" does not by default make Android a better or worse OS than Apple's iOS...it is just different.
I personally agree. My original question was to try and help me understand why a very loud minority of Android users on the internet feel it is their life's work to attack Apple users on sight, and one of their main weapons is 'Freedom'.

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
See how well that works driving across the country.

In my experience you only get data in metro ereas, when you're between cities forget about it. This site has coverage maps for most all carriers: http://sensorly.com/

I don't care which one you pick, lots of dead air on those maps.
Once again, I'm in the UK. It's green for my carrier along every motorway and 'A' road and city where I travel to.
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Old 17th December 2012, 12:47 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Because it's not really freedom, is it? You cannot do ANYTHING you want to Android, or with Android.
Methinks you should stop being quite so pedantic in your approach to the definition of Android "freedom"; you apparently have had some discussions with some Anrdroid "zealots" that has left you in a somewhat defensive mood, from what I can tell.

No, you certainly can't do anything you want with Android. But, the extent of what you can do in some aspects is much broader than you can with a non-open source operating system such as iOS.

Perhaps it is more precise to say that Android provides more freedom than does a closed operating system like iOS.

Quote:
Tweaking 'elements' of the OS and installing a custom keyboard - that's how you define 'freedom', is it?
I don't know if iOS allows you to choose a different-than-stock keyboard to install, but if iOS doesn't give you this option, then, yes, iOS has less freedom than does Android.

I don't know if iOS allows you to install a tweaked operating system (custom 'ROM') and I don't know if iOS allows you to install a different-than-stock GUI ('launcher' in Android parlance)...if iOS doesn't give you these options, then, yes, iOS has less freedom than Android.

Quote:
I personally agree. My original question was to try and help me understand why a very loud minority of Android users on the internet feel it is their life's work to attack Apple users on sight, and one of their main weapons is 'Freedom'.
I am not sure I can help. I enjoy the types of freedom I have described above, but I certainly wouldn't use them to verbally pummel someone such as yourself.
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Old 17th December 2012, 12:58 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
No, it's not the same end result. All mapping applications are not equal.

Apple forces the default to their application. I understand why, but I would rather it be configurable.
The example you gave me was finding one of my contact addresses on a map. I can achieve that with the minimum of fuss with vanilla iOS 6. I'm sorry to keep defaulting to this type of answer, but you leave me no choice - why would I want to choose between map apps when the end result would be the same - I would be shown where my contact was on a map. Exactly what I asked.

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
I prefer Atomic Web Browser to safari for a variety of reasons. There must be a reason there are so many browser choices in the play store ... maybe all browsers aren't equal ?
Maybe people like the illusion of choice? Do any of them actually improve the end result of my viewing a webpage, over Safari? All I do with Safari is type in searches, and look at the page I want to. I occasionaly use 'bookmark' or 'Reading List', or 'Reader' - seriously, what am I missing out on?

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
But yes, when used throughout the day, not being able to use my preferred apps as default makes a big enough difference that it irritates me.
Wow, OK - that's where we differ.

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Which is a workaround, because dropbox would work just fine, if allowed.
A workaround to not owning DropBox?

I don't see it as a workaround to anything, but a perfectly good alternative to having removable storage.

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Side-loading means loading apps from places other than the app store. It can be done on iOS, but not with the ease of Android.
I'll let you into a little secret; I once jailbroke an iPhone. I lasted about 2 weeks before I went back. It was a bag of crap. Apps not doing what they said they would, badly written apps slowing down my phone; no quality control whatsoever. Like I said; if I can't find it on the App store, then (for me) it's probably not worth doing anyway.

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
That's great - those are all things that you have to workaround because Apple says so, not because of technical limitations. It doesn't keep me from preferring iOS, but I can certainly recognize some of what some of that Android 'freedom' is.
I'm sure some people do think Android means 'freedom', and good luck to them. My experience, and the people around me, have left me completely unconvinced.
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:00 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Again, just me, but even the three people I know with Android phones couldn't care less about being able to download a customisable keyboard. Just because something is highly customisable doesn't mean 'useful', and it doesn't mean people are going to use it. The guys I know with Android phones bought the phone - not the OS.
Customizing a keyboard probably isn't something most users will have any need to do. But if for whatever reason you do need to do it. You can.
Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post


Because it's not really freedom, is it? You cannot do ANYTHING you want to Android, or with Android.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this but yes, you can do anything you want to or with Android. Of course, there are a lot of things you could do that would prove to be detrimental, or useless, but that's true of modifying a car engine or just about anything.
Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post



Tweaking 'elements' of the OS and installing a custom keyboard - that's how you define 'freedom', is it?
It's something you can do with android that you can't do with IOS. Again, what is your point? For those of us that want to do such things, or make use of the product of others who have done such things, it's important.
Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post


I personally agree. My original question was to try and help me understand why a very loud minority of Android users on the internet feel it is their life's work to attack Apple users on sight, and one of their main weapons is 'Freedom'.
An unfortunately large portion of internet users like to act like jerks, probably because of the relative anonymity of posting on a forum compared to actually talking face to face. This phenomenon is certainly not limited to Android (or Apple) fans. If you looked, I'm sure you would find similar conversations about Ford Vs. Chevy or Harley Davidson Vs. Honda.
Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post

Once again, I'm in the UK. It's green for my carrier along every motorway and 'A' road and city where I travel to.
Well the US (especially the western half), is a lot bigger and the people are spread a lot thinner. The cell phone providers have understandably put more effort into building infrastructure in more densely populated areas first. Some of the really wide open spaces may never get service. It really doesn't make a lot of sense to build a tower for one or two people.
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:03 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Wangler View Post
I am not sure I can help. I enjoy the types of freedom I have described above, but I certainly wouldn't use them to verbally pummel someone such as yourself.
Maybe you're right, and I am a bit bruised, but believe me - people like that ARE out there. I just wanted to see if anyone here knew what they meant without having to roll in the mud.

Android creates a good illusion of freedom but, unless you can code, beyond the ability to do some minor tweaks (which amount to redundant choices), and some slightly more streamlined features, it's not much more 'free' than iOS.
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:11 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Maybe you're right, and I am a bit bruised, but believe me - people like that ARE out there. I just wanted to see if anyone here knew what they meant without having to roll in the mud.
I think that they are just polarized in their view, and that not being able to control even the smallest part of the user experience is just anathema to them.

Quote:
Android creates a good illusion of freedom but, unless you can code, beyond the ability to do some minor tweaks (which amount to redundant choices), and some slightly more streamlined features, it's not much more 'free' than iOS.
I can't code; I rely on others to develop and tweak the ROM's that I use. In some cases, it is more than minor tweaks, but I enjoy this type of freedom that Android offers me. It is no illusion.

I am sure we can agree that no one should put on airs of superiority because they like an "open" or a "closed" phone or PC operating system. It is just silly. They both exists because they cater to users with different personal requirements.

If you are talking with folks about phone OS's that think your choice of iOS is stupid or mis-informed, when it so clearly fulfills your needs entirely, I say just stop talking to those folks.
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:19 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Customizing a keyboard probably isn't something most users will have any need to do. But if for whatever reason you do need to do it. You can.
Indeed, but it's hardly cause to run riot across Website comments sections screaming about freedom and superiority, is it? Nobody here is doing that, obviously.

And I still maintain that customising a keyboard to the extent in some of those links is totally redundant (in my experience anyway). Plus you can customise Apple iOS keyboards - just not to that extent.

There are MANY things I could do, but I would be daft to, or it just would be a waste of my time. Doesn't necessarily mean 'freedom' though does it, because I won't be doing them any time soon?

Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this but yes, you can do anything you want to or with Android. Of course, there are a lot of things you could do that would prove to be detrimental, or useless, but that's true of modifying a car engine or just about anything.
Can you Airplay Mirror your Android Device onto any make of TV with a HDMI socket?

Originally Posted by CORed View Post
It's something you can do with android that you can't do with IOS. Again, what is your point? For those of us that want to do such things, or make use of the product of others who have done such things, it's important.
Once again, I'm sorry, but the ability to tweak the OS (which you can do to a certain extent with iOS) and customise the keyboard is simply not a big draw with the vast majority of people I know. I mentioned elsewhere that I have about 70-80 'friends' on FB - I'm not going to count the exact figure, but I'd say that about 80+% of them own at LEAST one iDevice. I'm not even counting people I see on a daily basis in 'the real world'.

Originally Posted by CORed View Post
An unfortunately large portion of internet users like to act like jerks, probably because of the relative anonymity of posting on a forum compared to actually talking face to face. This phenomenon is certainly not limited to Android (or Apple) fans. If you looked, I'm sure you would find similar conversations about Ford Vs. Chevy or Harley Davidson Vs. Honda.
I suppose. It's just that in some of the places I have been on the web I have been subjected to some really bizarre and surprising abuse just because I have commented favourably on an Apple announcement, and dared to express my reasons for liking the product.

Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Well the US (especially the western half), is a lot bigger and the people are spread a lot thinner. The cell phone providers have understandably put more effort into building infrastructure in more densely populated areas first. Some of the really wide open spaces may never get service. It really doesn't make a lot of sense to build a tower for one or two people.
OK. So that's one way the UK benefits from being smaller then - iCloud is extremely reliable!
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:22 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Wangler View Post
I think that they are just polarized in their view, and that not being able to control even the smallest part of the user experience is just anathema to them.



I can't code; I rely on others to develop and tweak the ROM's that I use. In some cases, it is more than minor tweaks, but I enjoy this type of freedom that Android offers me. It is no illusion.

I am sure we can agree that no one should put on airs of superiority because they like an "open" or a "closed" phone or PC operating system. It is just silly. They both exists because they cater to users with different personal requirements.

If you are talking with folks about phone OS's that think your choice of iOS is stupid or mis-informed, when it so clearly fulfills your needs entirely, I say just stop talking to those folks.
You're right. I think I just dislike being made to feel like some sort of idiot, or be called a 'sheep', just because I prefer a safe, no-mess, no-fuss OS (that's not a poke at Android).

I will apologise to anyone if they felt I was belligerent or abusive, but I stand by what I say, and this thread was never about one OS being better than the other.
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:30 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
You're right. I think I just dislike being made to feel like some sort of idiot, or be called a 'sheep', just because I prefer a safe, no-mess, no-fuss OS (that's not a poke at Android).

I will apologise to anyone if they felt I was belligerent or abusive, but I stand by what I say, and this thread was never about one OS being better than the other.
I think that you hit the nail on the head: you shouldn't be made to feel like an idiot.

Those "zealots" (my term) are just trying to feel better about themselves, or justify their preference.

Perhaps they feel like their preference should be grounded in some concrete and tangible aspect of their preference being obviously better (in their eyes).

Who knows?
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:37 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Wangler View Post
I think that you hit the nail on the head: you shouldn't be made to feel like an idiot.

Those "zealots" (my term) are just trying to feel better about themselves, or justify their preference.

Perhaps they feel like their preference should be grounded in some concrete and tangible aspect of their preference being obviously better (in their eyes).

Who knows?
I just don't get it. Does Google pay these people every time someone buys and Android phone? Do they all own shares in Google/Samsung? Does owning an Apple product cause certain types of people to suffer physical pain, or offer great insult to their family?
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:38 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
There are MANY things I could do, but I would be daft to, or it just would be a waste of my time. Doesn't necessarily mean 'freedom' though does it, because I won't be doing them any time soon?
Just because you won't be doing something doesn't mean you don't have the freedom to do so; rather you are making a concious choice to not exercise that freedom.

I don't plan on owning a firearm, but that in no way means that the freedom I have to do so does not exist.

Quote:
Can you Airplay Mirror your Android Device onto any make of TV with a HDMI socket?
I don't know what Airplay Mirror is, but I can very easily connect my android device to a TV with or via HDMI and mirror the phone display to that TV.

Quote:
Once again, I'm sorry, but the ability to tweak the OS (which you can do to a certain extent with iOS) and customise the keyboard is simply not a big draw with the vast majority of people I know. I mentioned elsewhere that I have about 70-80 'friends' on FB - I'm not going to count the exact figure, but I'd say that about 80+% of them own at LEAST one iDevice. I'm not even counting people I see on a daily basis in 'the real world'.
I think that of those who own smart phones, about half don't care about the OS at all. Of the remainder, about one half care about the OS, and have a definite preference. The remaining quarter of total users probably are really adamant about their OS preference, whether those who would claim to hate the vulnerability to viruses and possible user experience variances that an open OS provides, or those who think that a closed OS is like a prison cell.
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:41 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Wangler View Post
Methinks you should stop being quite so pedantic in your approach to the definition of Android "freedom"; you apparently have had some discussions with some Anrdroid "zealots" that has left you in a somewhat defensive mood, from what I can tell.

No, you certainly can't do anything you want with Android. But, the extent of what you can do in some aspects is much broader than you can with a non-open source operating system such as iOS.

Perhaps it is more precise to say that Android provides more freedom than does a closed operating system like iOS.



I don't know if iOS allows you to choose a different-than-stock keyboard to install, but if iOS doesn't give you this option, then, yes, iOS has less freedom than does Android.
I'm pretty sure you can't install a custom keyboard unless you jailbreak.
Originally Posted by Wangler View Post
I don't know if iOS allows you to install a tweaked operating system (custom 'ROM') and
No. IOS is proprietary and closed source. I suppose you could write your own operating system from scratch to run on Apple hardware (or maybe port Android to run on it), but you can't legally modify Apple's code, even if you did manage to decompile it.
Originally Posted by Wangler View Post
I don't know if iOS allows you to install a different-than-stock GUI ('launcher' in Android parlance)...if iOS doesn't give you these options, then, yes, iOS has less freedom than Android.
There are some "Springboard" (more or less equivalent to launcher) replacements available for jailbroken IOS devices, as well as "themes" (custome screen and font designs). For a non-jailbroken iphone/ipad, there's not much. You can put your own background picture on the home screen, but that's about it.
Originally Posted by Wangler View Post


I am not sure I can help. I enjoy the types of freedom I have described above, but I certainly wouldn't use them to verbally pummel someone such as yourself.
Yes, it seems that OP doesn't see much value in the sorts of customization or the wide choice of apps that Android allows, and it's unfortunate that he has run into some rude Android fanboys, and I can understand why he might find Apple devices more to his liking. They make some damn good products, and if you want something that "just works" with a phone, email, and a decent, usable web browser, and a quite a few good apps, Apple is a good choice. OTOH, Android works pretty well for that, too, and, if you want to tweak your phone or tablet to work the way you want it to, it offers a lot more freedom to do so.

I certainly wouldn't fault anybody who decides that the iPhone best meets his needs for using it in preference to an Android device. After seeing both IOS, and Android, I like Android better, but to say that what works best for me works best for anybody, or that somebody who makes a different choice is a deluded sheep, or whatever is just plain stupid.

Last edited by CORed; 17th December 2012 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:43 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
The example you gave me was finding one of my contact addresses on a map. I can achieve that with the minimum of fuss with vanilla iOS 6. I'm sorry to keep defaulting to this type of answer, but you leave me no choice - why would I want to choose between map apps when the end result would be the same - I would be shown where my contact was on a map. Exactly what I asked.
Now you want to get directions using google maps from that point ... how do you do that easily ? Because the pin was just dropped in Apple maps application.

Are you intentionally being obtuse, or do you really not understand the difference ?

Do you require me to continue providing specific examples, or do you think you can manage to extrapolate some further issues this might cause, such as SIRI only opening apple maps, not google maps...

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Maybe people like the illusion of choice? Do any of them actually improve the end result of my viewing a webpage, over Safari? All I do with Safari is type in searches, and look at the page I want to. I occasionaly use 'bookmark' or 'Reading List', or 'Reader' - seriously, what am I missing out on?
Full screen mode, changing my UA, tabbed view, etc. iOS updated safari to some of these things, but it didn't used to be able to.

It's not quite so different, because all browsers on iOS are required to use the built in webkit. And they are not as fast, becuase only Safari is able to nitro JS. On android you can use wildly different browsers that render differently.

It's not an illusion.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Wow, OK - that's where we differ.
A workaround to not owning DropBox?

I don't see it as a workaround to anything, but a perfectly good alternative to having removable storage.
Dropbox is a good alternative that appears to be intentionally not supported system wide because apple wants you to use icloud and email yourself. In this day and age emailing yourself is an alternative, but certainly not a good one.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I'll let you into a little secret; I once jailbroke an iPhone. I lasted about 2 weeks before I went back. It was a bag of crap. Apps not doing what they said they would, badly written apps slowing down my phone; no quality control whatsoever. Like I said; if I can't find it on the App store, then (for me) it's probably not worth doing anyway.
Like tethering another device (mobile hotspot) ?

I'll let you into a little secret; I have jailbroken lots of iphones. My sister in law used to use a jailbroken one on t-mobile.

I also have jailbroken my appletv to run XBMC which is about as far from a piece of crap as you can get.

Also, it would be convenient to be able to load apps without having to jailbreak my device, but that's not how apple works. But that is a freedom you have on android.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I'm sure some people do think Android means 'freedom', and good luck to them. My experience, and the people around me, have left me completely unconvinced.
You neglected to address the fact that all those things I listed exist by fiat because of apple. And not in android.

I thought you wanted some examples of what android freedom was. You have been given them You didn't ask to be convinced that Android suits you better than iOS...
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:44 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
My original question was to try and help me understand why a very loud minority of Android users on the internet feel it is their life's work to attack Apple users on sight, and one of their main weapons is 'Freedom'.
Oh that. I've run into a lot of that myself in researching my recent phone upgrade. Any mention of anything Apple draws immediate fire from all directions from mainly Android users. Surely there can't be that many butthurt fandroids out there. I think it's likely a combination of three things: Genuinely butthurt fandroids, Paid shills and good old fashioned trollery. It's a shame you can't read a review without having to sift through that garbage.
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:50 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Yes, it seems that OP doesn't see much value in the sorts of customization or the wide choice of apps that Android allows, and it's unfortunate that he has run into some rude Android fanboys, and I can understand why he might find Apple devices more to his liking. They make some damn good products, and if you want something that "just works" with a phone, email, and a decent, usable web browser, Apple is a good choice. OTOH, Android works pretty well for that, too, and, if you want to tweak your phone or tablet to work the way you want it to, it offers a lot more freedom to do so.

I certainly wouldn't fault anybody who decides that the iPhone best meets his needs for using it in preference to an Android device. After seeing both IOS, and Android, I like Android better, but to say that what works best for me works best for anybody, or that somebody who makes a different choice is a deluded sheep, or whatever is just plain stupid.
One of the aspects possibly missing from this discussion up to now is the fact that Apple experience is nicely integrated across software and hardware....which makes for very consistent and reliable performance.

Contrast with Android and associated softwares, that need to be able to run reasonably well under a broad spectrum of different devices. The differences in performance between android phone A and android phone B on a specific app might drive some people nuts.

Heck, it has driven me nuts, on occassion. Still, issues like this are, in my opinion, still not a Android deal breaker. Overall I am very satisfied with Android as smart phone OS.
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Old 17th December 2012, 02:37 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Now you want to get directions using google maps from that point ... how do you do that easily ? Because the pin was just dropped in Apple maps application.
I'm sorry, why do I want to get directions from Google maps when I've just used iOS maps?!

Why would I use one app to find an address and another app for navigation?

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Are you intentionally being obtuse, or do you really not understand the difference ?
No. Do you not understand that I am perfectly happy with how iOS works, and don't see any restrictions on my 'freedom' to use my device to accomplish everything I want?

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Do you require me to continue providing specific examples, or do you think you can manage to extrapolate some further issues this might cause, such as SIRI only opening apple maps, not google maps...
What's wrong with Apple Maps? I haven't had a problem with it, and it has ousted my ageing TomTom from my car.

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Full screen mode, changing my UA, tabbed view, etc. iOS updated safari to some of these things, but it didn't used to be able to.

It's not quite so different, because all browsers on iOS are required to use the built in webkit. And they are not as fast, becuase only Safari is able to nitro JS. On android you can use wildly different browsers that render differently.

It's not an illusion.
So Safari is the fastest browser on iOS? So why would I want to use another one?

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Dropbox is a good alternative that appears to be intentionally not supported system wide because apple wants you to use icloud and email yourself. In this day and age emailing yourself is an alternative, but certainly not a good one.
I wouldn't know; I've never used it, because I don't have to - the iCloud and emailing things to myself work perfectly!

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Like tethering another device (mobile hotspot) ?
Not sure I understand - I tethered my PC to my iPhone yesterday simply by enabling 'Hotspot' in the System settings of my phone.

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
I'll let you into a little secret; I have jailbroken lots of iphones. My sister in law used to use a jailbroken one on t-mobile.

I also have jailbroken my appletv to run XBMC which is about as far from a piece of crap as you can get.

Also, it would be convenient to be able to load apps without having to jailbreak my device, but that's not how apple works. But that is a freedom you have on android.
Like I said - I cannot think of a single good reason to jailbreak my phone, given the abundance of Apps on the App Store these days. That's just me though, and again, nobody I know has felt the need to jailbreak either.

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
I thought you wanted some examples of what android freedom was. You have been given them You didn't ask to be convinced that Android suits you better than iOS...
I didn't say that I wanted to be convinced that Android suits me, I said that I wasn't convinced that Android means 'freedom'.
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Old 17th December 2012, 02:54 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I'm sorry, why do I want to get directions from Google maps when I've just used iOS maps?!
No clue why you might not want to use apple maps

And you haven't 'just used' iOS maps - you clicked on an address in your contact list only opens in Apple maps, even though you want to use google maps. But you can't. Because apple won't let you assign a default mapping application. Not because they can't ... because they won't.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Why would I use one app to find an address and another app for navigation?
You wouldn't want to, you are forced to if you want to use something other than apple maps.

I'm sorry none of the specific things I listed are things you want to do. But then again, if you never used android and had the option, you don't really know that you wouldn't actually prefer some of them, do you?

As for the rest of the post, you seem to be intentionally missing the point. At least I hope it's intentional...
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Old 17th December 2012, 02:57 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
Buying an Android device possibly entitles you to free updates until the manufacturer loses interest. After that, good luck.
How is that any different to any other company's approach?
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Old 17th December 2012, 04:22 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I just don't get it. Does Google pay these people every time someone buys and Android phone? Do they all own shares in Google/Samsung? Does owning an Apple product cause certain types of people to suffer physical pain, or offer great insult to their family?
In a psychological sense, I think that's correct. Any flaw in the product becomes not a flaw in the product but a personal fault in them for making the choice. The pain is resolved by justification that the flaw does not exist (or that the alternatives are more deeply flawed).

See also:
mac vs pc
xbox vs playstation
Harley vs Kawasaki
democrat vs republican

There's no need for external pressures to explain the behavior.
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Old 17th December 2012, 04:33 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Can somebody explain either of those to me please?

As far as freedom goes, I cannot think of a single thing that an Android device can do that I cannot do with my iPhone and would actually want to do(personally speaking).

As for the 'Apple Trap', I am at a loss as to what that actually means.

Anyone?
You never know its a trap until you try to get out of it.

But seriously - Apple has a coporate philosophy that basically say that consumers will use Apple products the way Apple intends them to be used and screw the outliers. Android's a bit freer than that.

When the Iphone first came out there was no Apple ap store and there was no intention of making one. Apple simply assumed that you would use the Iphone as a phone and media player and so Itunes and their pre-loaded apps would be sufficient. I wasn't until the huge outcry to use the phone's excess capabilities and the spate of jailbreaking that the App store was rolled out. Even then the idea was that you would use Apple approved, and only Apple approved, apps on your phone - to the point that the first few updates to IOS (were suspected of) deliberately bricked jailbroken Iphones.

That history and the tight reign Apple keeps on what is "appropriate" to use on *their* phones has left a bad taste in the mouths of people like me who were raised on MS/Linux - both pretty hands-off on what you did with your gear.

The advantage of Apple's "walled garden" approach is supposed to be freedom from malicious apps but in reality their level of oversight only gets the worst ones - plenty get through, on par with Android.

Add in their being behind the times in terms of what they offer (at least since the 3rd Iphone), non-swappable battery, no SD memory card slot and they suffer enough that I choose not to by their stuff.


Though I admit the Iphone soooo blew away its competition and I got a bit of a chubby just looking at them.
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