JREF Homepage Swift Blog Events Calendar $1 Million Paranormal Challenge The Amaz!ng Meeting Useful Links Support Us
James Randi Educational Foundation JREF Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   JREF Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
Click Here To Donate

Notices


Welcome to the JREF Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.

Reply
Old 16th December 2012, 07:31 AM   #1
Alt+F4
diabolical globalist
 
Alt+F4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Department of Abandoned Places
Posts: 10,000
I am so sick of guns

We all know that as mammals we are violent, it is in our nature. However we are the most intelligent (and probably only) mammals in our galaxy. We need to put down the guns and drag... kicking and screaming, the conversation about mental illness into the forefront.
__________________
"My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky
Alt+F4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 08:25 AM   #2
ehcks
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,610
Gun control in the US is a lost cause. Periodic mass murders is just the price we get to pay for that right.

So yeah, we need to figure out why people decide to do that. If it's mental illness, then free and accessible mental health care is where we need to go.
__________________
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
ehcks is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 08:40 AM   #3
Alt+F4
diabolical globalist
 
Alt+F4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Department of Abandoned Places
Posts: 10,000
Unfortunately, even with free and accessible mental health care many of those with mental illness that are prone towards violence don't seek it out. How can one be forced to stay on their medication, short of incarnation? How can someone not convicted of a crime be incarcerated?

I agree with you that gun control is a dead issue in the U.S. but maybe we could bump up the conversation on mental illness.
__________________
"My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky
Alt+F4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 08:44 AM   #4
Lanzy
Muse
 
Lanzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 918
Somehow the focus needs to stop being about guns and start being about preventing people from using them in horrific fashion. Personally I am all about gun control of some kind but it is a non-starter in the US at this time.
Lanzy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 08:48 AM   #5
Alt+F4
diabolical globalist
 
Alt+F4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Department of Abandoned Places
Posts: 10,000
I agree Lanzy that gun control is a non-issue in U.S. politics, but I'm so sick of guns, I'm so sick of gun violence.

I'm a teacher and in September we drilled on what to do if a school shooter came to our school. How sickening is this, approaching 2013?
__________________
"My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky
Alt+F4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 08:50 AM   #6
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Rat cheer
Posts: 35,995
How to deal with mental illness and behavioral aberrations is certainly an ongoing challenge. Like with most other things, a bit of "keep working at it" seems to be the best effort.
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 08:54 AM   #7
Alt+F4
diabolical globalist
 
Alt+F4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Department of Abandoned Places
Posts: 10,000
You're right Darth.

I called this thread "I'm so sick of guns" because at least something can be done about that. As for mental illness, it just keeps getting swept under the rug. Why can't we just admit that we can't cure mental illness, we can only control it (somewhat) and make that a major focus?
__________________
"My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky
Alt+F4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 09:19 AM   #8
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Valhalla, one day at a time
Posts: 4,772
Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Unfortunately, even with free and accessible mental health care many of those with mental illness that are prone towards violence don't seek it out. How can one be forced to stay on their medication, short of incarnation? How can someone not convicted of a crime be incarcerated?

I agree with you that gun control is a dead issue in the U.S. but maybe we could bump up the conversation on mental illness.
It'll need to be a combination of medications and weekly visits with professionals. They can then keep the person under observation (in a fairly casual way) and still talk about when the person feels like not taking their meds and address it.
__________________
"It started badly, it tailed off a little in the middle and the less said about the end the better, but apart from that, it was excellent."
- Blackadder
The Norseman is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 09:21 AM   #9
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Valhalla, one day at a time
Posts: 4,772
Originally Posted by Lanzy View Post
Personally I am all about gun control of some kind but it is a non-starter in the US at this time.
Gun control? There are around twenty thousand different gun laws on the books, city, county, state, and federal level. Talking purely practicalities and not politics, what's one more gun law on the books going to do?

Of course it's a non-starter in the US. Recently the Supreme Court ruled the second amendment to be a personal right -- whether or not we all agree or disagree, it's been ruled on. It's a civil right no matter how distasteful that fact is to some people.
__________________
"It started badly, it tailed off a little in the middle and the less said about the end the better, but apart from that, it was excellent."
- Blackadder
The Norseman is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 09:28 AM   #10
iknownothing
Graduate Poster
 
iknownothing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,261
How about focusing more attention on people making threats? We have no knowledge about this case yet, of course, but it seems like a lot of the time shooters have made threats that people didn't know how to handle and shrugged off. Maybe we start encouraging people to get way more concerned about threats and reporting them to someone?

Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
It'll need to be a combination of medications and weekly visits with professionals.
Where do we get all those professionals? I don't think there are enough psychiatrists out there for the current load, let alone for any increase. Plus, that may take a more efficient & centralized health care/insurance system than we have right now.
iknownothing is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 09:29 AM   #11
DavidJames
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 8,160
Dear Grieving Parent:
I'm sorry your son/daughter had to die in a hail of bullets, but the fact that we all can play with guns should offer a ray sunshine and hope.

Hallmark Cards Inc.
__________________
I will no longer respond to those who choose to have tools of murder as their avatars.
Everyone is a skeptic except, of course, for the stuff that they believe
Beaver Hateman: Is your argument that human life loses value proportionate to the number of humans available? Malcolm Kirkpatrick: That's part of the argument. Value is determined by supply and demand.
DavidJames is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 09:41 AM   #12
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 8,563
Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
but the fact that we all can play with guns should offer a ray sunshine and hope.
Which is what Little Billy would have wanted.
__________________
"Alright, alright, alright. I just wanna say one more thing, brother: I was on the Dessi bandwagon before it was cool. And you can say that I said that. " -- Matthew McConaughey, private correspondence.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 09:48 AM   #13
TheRedWorm
I AM the Red Worm!
 
TheRedWorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Body: Michigan, Heart: Chicago
Posts: 4,456
I don't think we'll (meaning the US peeps) ever deal with mental illness until we can treat it as such. No different from a cold, cancer or herpes.
__________________
I'll be the best Congressman money can buy!

As usual, he doesn't understand the relevant sciences, can't Google for the right thing, and appears to rely on the notion that a word salad liberally sprinkled with Google Croutons will make his argument seem coherent. -JayUtah
TheRedWorm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 10:25 AM   #14
mikeyx
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,570
Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
We all know that as mammals we are violent, it is in our nature. However we are the most intelligent (and probably only) mammals in our galaxy. We need to put down the guns and drag... kicking and screaming, the conversation about mental illness into the forefront.
If you are referring to Newtown, stop being an opportunist. Its about respecting the victims not gun control.
mikeyx is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 11:41 AM   #15
Aepervius
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Somewhere on earth
Posts: 9,582
Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
We all know that as mammals we are violent, it is in our nature. However we are the most intelligent (and probably only) mammals in our galaxy. We need to put down the guns and drag... kicking and screaming, the conversation about mental illness into the forefront.
I am not even sure we are the most intelligent mammal on earth...
Aepervius is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 12:22 PM   #16
triforcharity
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The South!
Posts: 13,973
In the case of Newtown CT, I honestly don't believe anything would have prevented this tragedy.

1-He stole the guns from his mother
2-His mother owned them legally
3- He physically broke into the school


And no law could have prevented this, IMHO. He broke no less than 10 different laws, and plenty of times. I could no less than 41 charges, had he not offed himself.

Now, I don't know how the mother stored her guns, but something tells me that she didn't just hide them in a closet. However, I could be wrong, I don't know honestly.

Short of a damn miracle, or him offing himself before going on his rampage, this would have occurred.

No gun law is going to keep us 100% safe. None.
triforcharity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 01:27 PM   #17
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Valhalla, one day at a time
Posts: 4,772
Originally Posted by iknownothing View Post
How about focusing more attention on people making threats? We have no knowledge about this case yet, of course, but it seems like a lot of the time shooters have made threats that people didn't know how to handle and shrugged off. Maybe we start encouraging people to get way more concerned about threats and reporting them to someone?



Where do we get all those professionals? I don't think there are enough psychiatrists out there for the current load, let alone for any increase. Plus, that may take a more efficient & centralized health care/insurance system than we have right now.
There aren't enough right now, true. There were a ton of state mental health hospitals that were closed -- what, in the 80's under Regan? -- that could stand to be re-opened. We have military bases in a hundred and something countries around the world, plus one or two wars we're fighting... I'd prefer we take a chunk of that money and keep it home to help our own citizens rather than funneling it into countries where we'll never see any return.
__________________
"It started badly, it tailed off a little in the middle and the less said about the end the better, but apart from that, it was excellent."
- Blackadder
The Norseman is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 01:29 PM   #18
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Valhalla, one day at a time
Posts: 4,772
Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Dear Grieving Parent:
I'm sorry your son/daughter had to die in a hail of bullets, but the fact that we all can play with guns should offer a ray sunshine and hope.

Hallmark Cards Inc.
Wow! Vapid emotionalism! What a welcome change!
__________________
"It started badly, it tailed off a little in the middle and the less said about the end the better, but apart from that, it was excellent."
- Blackadder
The Norseman is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 01:38 PM   #19
shuttlt
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,608
Surely the popularity of guns is a drunkards walk? Who knows, maybe in 30 years only 20% of American households will own a gun, maybe it'll be 70%. I don't see why the freedom to own guns is necessarily beyond changing as a cultural norm any more than the freedom to smoke or make homophobic/racist/sexist comments are. The culture changes, things move on.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 01:41 PM   #20
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Valhalla, one day at a time
Posts: 4,772
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Surely the popularity of guns is a drunkards walk? Who knows, maybe in 30 years only 20% of American households will own a gun, maybe it'll be 70%. I don't see why the freedom to own guns is necessarily beyond changing as a cultural norm any more than the freedom to smoke or make homophobic/racist/sexist comments are. The culture changes, things move on.
I don't know what a 'drunkards walk' means.

The issue is that gun ownership is considered a civil right and thus, isn't as easily changed in the public consciousness as other cultural norms.

I used to be really invested in gun ownership, but as time goes on, I find other things more worthy of my time to invest in. However, I still think that public policies that are made should be evidence-based and emotion shouldn't be a factor in governmental politics.
__________________
"It started badly, it tailed off a little in the middle and the less said about the end the better, but apart from that, it was excellent."
- Blackadder
The Norseman is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 02:44 PM   #21
shuttlt
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,608
The drunkards walk is basically just a random process - wikipedia can tell you more. I was speculating that gun ownership could randomly wander about between 0% and 100%. Clearly that is to some degree a simplification. The other possibility is that it is dunkenly wandering about some stability point of gun ownership, say 45%.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 05:58 PM   #22
Spockette
Scholar
 
Spockette's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: State of Confusion
Posts: 109
Originally Posted by ehcks View Post
Gun control in the US is a lost cause. Periodic mass murders is just the price we get to pay for that right.

So yeah, we need to figure out why people decide to do that. If it's mental illness, then free and accessible mental health care is where we need to go.
I don't believe it's a lost cause at all.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...ntrol/WsJhPmQT

This petition is a little simplistic, but it does have a couple of good ideas and is a good beginning. It's also attracting signatures like crazy.
Spockette is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 06:06 PM   #23
EdG
Scholar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
The other possibility is that it is dunkenly wandering about some stability point of gun ownership, say 45%.
A survey last year has it at 47%, the same percentage as voted for Mitt Romney. Not to imply that Mitt's 47% of voters is the same as the 47% of gun owners or the 47% of Americans Mitt claimed are freeloaders, of course.
EdG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 06:08 PM   #24
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,522
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
The issue is that gun ownership is considered a civil right and thus, isn't as easily changed in the public consciousness as other cultural norms.
Just as slavery once was. That cultural norm changed.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 06:09 PM   #25
StankApe
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,643
as long as someone who has been treated for depression is treated differently by potential employers/society at large than someone with say Type 1 Diabetes, then problems will continue. Social stigmas are an important factor in this, as are parents who don't like to admit their kids have a problem.

On the flipside, I think that parents CAN over react and turn a mild case of "kids being kids" into "OMG MY CHILD HAS ADHD/BI-POLAR DISORDER........etc"

We need to try harder, stop treating mental illness as different than physical illness and also, take more intelligent responsibility for things.
StankApe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 06:54 PM   #26
crhkrebs
Critical Thinker
 
crhkrebs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Great White Northern Wasteland
Posts: 437
Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post

No gun law is going to keep us 100% safe. None.
Unfortunately, this is correct. Nothing is 100% effective.

Quote:
He stole the guns from his mother

And no law could have prevented this, IMHO.
No, but in my country there are more stringent storage requirements, which MAY have made things much more difficult for the killer.

1) guns must be stored in a locked gun locker.
2) the gun owner must secure the keys to the locker.
3) the guns should have trigger locks.
4) ammunition should be secured in a separate locked location. (Not an actual law, just a good idea)
5) it is illegal to have a loaded gun in a house.

I own 3 WW2 era rifles. Had the killer broken into my house he would have had a hard time arming himself completely.

Again, this is not a 100% guarantee against gun violence, but it goes some way towards prevention.
crhkrebs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 07:01 PM   #27
crhkrebs
Critical Thinker
 
crhkrebs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Great White Northern Wasteland
Posts: 437
Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post

No gun law is going to keep us 100% safe. None.
Unfortunately, this is correct. Nothing is 100% effective.

Quote:
He stole the guns from his mother

And no law could have prevented this, IMHO.
No, but in my country there are more stringent storage requirements, which MAY have made things much more difficult for the killer.

1) guns must be stored in a locked gun locker.
2) the gun owner must secure the keys to the locker.
3) the guns should have trigger locks.
4) ammunition should be secured in a separate locked location. (Not an actual law, just a good idea)
5) it is illegal to have a loaded gun in a house.

I own 3 WW2 era rifles. Had the killer broken into my house he would have had a hard time arming himself completely.

Again, this is not a 100% guarantee against gun violence, but it goes some way towards prevention.
crhkrebs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 07:26 PM   #28
DavidJames
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 8,160
Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
No gun law is going to keep us 100% safe. None.
No laws, murder, robbery, rape, speed limit, etc are 100% effective, so let's get rid of all of them. Sorry, but that is one dumb ass excuse.
__________________
I will no longer respond to those who choose to have tools of murder as their avatars.
Everyone is a skeptic except, of course, for the stuff that they believe
Beaver Hateman: Is your argument that human life loses value proportionate to the number of humans available? Malcolm Kirkpatrick: That's part of the argument. Value is determined by supply and demand.

Last edited by DavidJames; 16th December 2012 at 07:27 PM.
DavidJames is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 07:34 PM   #29
mikedenk
Graduate Poster
 
mikedenk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Midsouth, USA
Posts: 1,030
Originally Posted by crhkrebs View Post
No, but in my country there are more stringent storage requirements, which MAY have made things much more difficult for the killer.

1) guns must be stored in a locked gun locker.
2) the gun owner must secure the keys to the locker.
3) the guns should have trigger locks.
4) ammunition should be secured in a separate locked location. (Not an actual law, just a good idea)
5) it is illegal to have a loaded gun in a house.

I own 3 WW2 era rifles. Had the killer broken into my house he would have had a hard time arming himself completely.

Again, this is not a 100% guarantee against gun violence, but it goes some way towards prevention.

Christ.

What's the point of even having the things? This killer would have time to break in, make himself a sandwich out of your fridge, then calmly walk up and axe murder you while you're fumbling through your third or fourth obstacle.

Overly onerous regulations are just as intolerable as outright bans.

Last edited by mikedenk; 16th December 2012 at 07:36 PM.
mikedenk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 07:41 PM   #30
BStrong
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: California
Posts: 5,945
Originally Posted by crhkrebs View Post
Unfortunately, this is correct. Nothing is 100% effective.



No, but in my country there are more stringent storage requirements, which MAY have made things much more difficult for the killer.

1) guns must be stored in a locked gun locker.
2) the gun owner must secure the keys to the locker.
3) the guns should have trigger locks.
4) ammunition should be secured in a separate locked location. (Not an actual law, just a good idea)
5) it is illegal to have a loaded gun in a house.


I own 3 WW2 era rifles. Had the killer broken into my house he would have had a hard time arming himself completely.

Again, this is not a 100% guarantee against gun violence, but it goes some way towards prevention.
In the U.S. as a result of the case Heller v. DC, such laws as the above bolded were found unconstitutional.
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 07:42 PM   #31
Delvo
Illuminator
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,864
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I don't see why the freedom to own guns is necessarily beyond changing as a cultural norm any more than the freedom to smoke or make homophobic/racist/sexist comments are. The culture changes, things move on.
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Just as slavery once was. That cultural norm changed.
Ending something like that requires more than a change in culture. It also requires rather drastic and difficult legal action (either an amendment or a new Supreme Court ruling going against previous ones) and a way to enforce it. Cultural change can lead to legal change eventually, but enforcement will remain troublesome. Banning guns or even severely narrowing down the supply of people who are allowed to own them can only be enforced if you can find and confiscate the guns that are already here, including those in the possession of people who have done nothing else that would cause themselves and their property to be searched.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 08:45 PM   #32
JeanFromBNA
Critical Thinker
 
JeanFromBNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 416
Originally Posted by Spockette View Post
I don't believe it's a lost cause at all.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...ntrol/WsJhPmQT

This petition is a little simplistic, but it does have a couple of good ideas and is a good beginning. It's also attracting signatures like crazy.
I just see that as slacktivism. If I see another sad, meaningless FB post about the tragedy, I might have to shoot somebody.
JeanFromBNA is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 08:56 PM   #33
JeanFromBNA
Critical Thinker
 
JeanFromBNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 416
Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
as long as someone who has been treated for depression is treated differently by potential employers/society at large than someone with say Type 1 Diabetes, then problems will continue. Social stigmas are an important factor in this, as are parents who don't like to admit their kids have a problem.

On the flipside, I think that parents CAN over react and turn a mild case of "kids being kids" into "OMG MY CHILD HAS ADHD/BI-POLAR DISORDER........etc"

We need to try harder, stop treating mental illness as different than physical illness and also, take more intelligent responsibility for things.

Bolding, mine. It's an easy out to get a "diagnosis." I have no idea if this was the case in the recent tragedy, but sometimes I think your ADHD kid is just bored, and doesn't have enough physical outlets for natural aggression.

I agree with you on getting people to be forthright about treating mental illness as any other illness. You have a problem, you try to fix it. I have been honest with my employees about the meds that I take for depression. When I need to change my meds, I let them know, so they know that I am trying to get better, and not making excuses for bad behavior. There's a difference.
JeanFromBNA is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 09:01 PM   #34
StankApe
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,643
we men need to be better about going to the dr in general, but specifically when it comes to mental illness. But I'm as guilty as the next guy, I worry about stigmas and future employment.
StankApe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 09:01 PM   #35
triforcharity
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The South!
Posts: 13,973
Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
No laws, murder, robbery, rape, speed limit, etc are 100% effective, so let's get rid of all of them. Sorry, but that is one dumb ass excuse.
That's one dumb ass strawman you've built there.

(Hint: I didn't make that claim, you did, and then tried to make it mine. )

I've already expressed, (not in this thread though, so you're excused) that I would not be entirely opposed to increased gun laws. But, you're welcome to go with your strawman bull **** that you built though. Your choice.

ETA: You can read about that here

Last edited by triforcharity; 16th December 2012 at 09:03 PM.
triforcharity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 09:10 PM   #36
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,522
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Ending something like that requires more than a change in culture. It also requires rather drastic and difficult legal action (either an amendment or a new Supreme Court ruling going against previous ones) and a way to enforce it. Cultural change can lead to legal change eventually, but enforcement will remain troublesome. Banning guns or even severely narrowing down the supply of people who are allowed to own them can only be enforced if you can find and confiscate the guns that are already here, including those in the possession of people who have done nothing else that would cause themselves and their property to be searched.
I agree with this. But, despite the best efforts of a number of Americans in several threads, I believe things are broken and need to be fixed. Several have said that massacres like the recent ones are the price to be paid for 2nd Amendment rights. I find that to be a sad position to hold.

I know that nothing much will change. The main thing I've been saying in a number of threads is that other countries have debated gun control and have decided that it would be in the best interests of the entire nation that firearms should be restricted. I'm not aware of any country which has regretted this decision. Stubborn resistance in the US to even a debate is costing countless lives. There are alternatives.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 09:42 PM   #37
triforcharity
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The South!
Posts: 13,973
More restricted than they already are?

I, as a law abiding citizen, who's never had a legal issue, have to wait 6 MONTHS to get a Title 3 weapon or device. That includes silencers.

I'm not against adding some limited controls, but no gun law is going to prevent all incidents. None. Criminals don't obey the law.

There are, as it stands right now, hundreds of different gun laws in the states.
triforcharity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 09:47 PM   #38
DavidJames
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 8,160
Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
That's one dumb ass strawman you've built there.
I quoted you word for word. Deal with the consequences of what you write.

Thanks.
__________________
I will no longer respond to those who choose to have tools of murder as their avatars.
Everyone is a skeptic except, of course, for the stuff that they believe
Beaver Hateman: Is your argument that human life loses value proportionate to the number of humans available? Malcolm Kirkpatrick: That's part of the argument. Value is determined by supply and demand.
DavidJames is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 09:51 PM   #39
triforcharity
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The South!
Posts: 13,973
Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
I quoted you word for word. Deal with the consequences of what you write.

Thanks.
No sir, you did not. Please show me where I said to get rid of them all. That was what I was calling the Strawman. Please feel free to apologize any time. PM me if necessary.
triforcharity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2012, 09:59 PM   #40
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,522
Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
More restricted than they already are?

I, as a law abiding citizen, who's never had a legal issue, have to wait 6 MONTHS to get a Title 3 weapon or device. That includes silencers.

I'm not against adding some limited controls, but no gun law is going to prevent all incidents. None. Criminals don't obey the law.

There are, as it stands right now, hundreds of different gun laws in the states.
A silencer? Are you serious? You need a silencer so that when you are blowing someone away when defending your "castle", you won't be offending neighbours with the noise?

Things are more broken than I thought.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

JREF Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:25 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001-2013, James Randi Educational Foundation. All Rights Reserved.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.