Animal killing and hokey medicine

Scoot Meevo · 17th December 2012, 03:20 AM

I've just saw an advert for the WWF on tv telling a story of a found tiger which died as a result of snare injuries. During the ad, the narrator mentioned how the tigers were killed by poachers and bodies parts were sold off as medicine.

I wondered just how extensive this problem was. How many animals have been trapped and killed in the name of alternative medicines? The other really obvious one would be rhino horn but I wondered what else was out there?

catsmate1 · 17th December 2012, 03:30 AM

Rhinoceros, Water Buffalo, Chinese Alligator, Asian Elephant, Musk Deer, Sun Bear, Grevy’s Zebra, Tiger, Banteng and the Hawksbill Sea Turtle seem to be the most effected.

Mark6 · 17th December 2012, 07:04 AM

And in a truly ironic twist:

At least one of these "alternative medicines" -- bile from bear gall bladder for liver disease, -- has been shown to actually work, and the active ingredient, ursodeoxycholic acid, has been identified, synthesized, and now sold as medicine.

You'd think this would stop killing of bears for their gall bladder? All too many Chinese do not believe the synthtic medicine because it is so much cheaper!

quarky · 17th December 2012, 08:38 AM

I recently read (sorry, forgot where; I read a lot) that trade in illegal animals was the third largest black market; behind drugs and weapons. So, pretty big stuff. Damn shame, too.

MikeG · 17th December 2012, 09:03 AM

This is huge, huge, huge........and it is going on under our noses.

Now that the tiger is getting rare and expensive, the Chinese have turned their attention to lions. These are getting poached now, and are in serious decline. In fact, wildlife poaching in Africa has skyrocketted since the Chinese colonisation of the continent began about 8 or 10 years ago. 90% of poaching in Zambia, for instance, happens within 20 miles of a Chinese project......and there are LOTS of those.

Pangolins are another of their favourites.

Before the world wakes up the rhino, already saved once, will be just about beyond saving, tigers will be rare as hen's teeth, and lions will be in huge trouble. All because of Chinese & Vietnamese traditional medicine. The Africans cannot fight China by themselves.

Mike

geni · 17th December 2012, 10:35 AM

Yes but when it comes to rinos neither can we. This is from Norwich castle:

quarky · 17th December 2012, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by MikeG

This is huge, huge, huge........and it is going on under our noses.

Now that the tiger is getting rare and expensive, the Chinese have turned their attention to lions. These are getting poached now, and are in serious decline. In fact, wildlife poaching in Africa has skyrocketted since the Chinese colonisation of the continent began about 8 or 10 years ago. 90% of poaching in Zambia, for instance, happens within 20 miles of a Chinese project......and there are LOTS of those.

Pangolins are another of their favourites.

Before the world wakes up the rhino, already saved once, will be just about beyond saving, tigers will be rare as hen's teeth, and lions will be in huge trouble. All because of Chinese & Vietnamese traditional medicine. The Africans cannot fight China by themselves.

Mike

It's not just about bad medicine.
Lots of idiots want a tiger as a pet.
I've heard that there are more privately owned tigers in the U.S., than in the wild.
Bush meat is another issue, which I see as political. Various 'civil' wars and genocidal revolutions have squeezed people into eating and selling whatever they can kill.

Mark6 · 19th December 2012, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by quarky

It's not just about bad medicine.
Lots of idiots want a tiger as a pet.
I've heard that there are more privately owned tigers in the U.S., than in the wild.

That is true, but why do you think it is a bad thing? It's not like any of these privately owned tigers were taken from the wild -- they are all captive-born, as tigers breed in captivity better than most animals. Famous "white tigers" often used in Las Vegas shows never existed in the wild in the first place -- it's a recent domestic mutation.

Domesticating a species is the best way to prevent its extinction.

Bikewer · 19th December 2012, 09:49 AM

Recent reports on NPR's The World indicate that such poaching and illegal animal trade is rapidly expanding into organized crime.
Previously, indigenous, impoverished peoples would be tempted to take a rhino or elephant to make a few bucks.
Now, heavily-armed gangs, hunting from helicopters, are slaughtering animals in large numbers, and intimidating understaffed and underarmed wardens and buying off local authorities.
It's an ugly trade.

dlorde · 19th December 2012, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Mark6

You'd think this would stop killing of bears for their gall bladder?

As I understand it, the bears aren't generally killed directly for their gall bladders, but caged and catheterised so bile can be collected 'on tap', while the bear still survives. The bears eventually die prematurely after a horrible 'living death'. Some might say this is worse than killing them immediately, although a few have been rescued.

Capsid · 19th December 2012, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by dlorde

As I understand it, the bears aren't generally killed directly for their gall bladders, but caged and catheterised so bile can be collected 'on tap', while the bear still survives. The bears eventually die prematurely after a horrible 'living death'. Some might say this is worse than killing them immediately, although a few have been rescued.

Yes, this practise is truly abhorrent, please donate here and support the work to stop it.

Beerina · 19th December 2012, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

Recent reports on NPR's The World indicate that such poaching and illegal animal trade is rapidly expanding into organized crime.
Previously, indigenous, impoverished peoples would be tempted to take a rhino or elephant to make a few bucks.
Now, heavily-armed gangs, hunting from helicopters, are slaughtering animals in large numbers, and intimidating understaffed and underarmed wardens and buying off local authorities.
It's an ugly trade.

"Remember, you are only Game Warden-for-Life. Ehehe hehe ha ha haw haw haw!"

quarky · 20th December 2012, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Mark6

That is true, but why do you think it is a bad thing? It's not like any of these privately owned tigers were taken from the wild -- they are all captive-born, as tigers breed in captivity better than most animals. Famous "white tigers" often used in Las Vegas shows never existed in the wild in the first place -- it's a recent domestic mutation.

Domesticating a species is the best way to prevent its extinction.

Perhaps tigers were a bad example.
There's a large black market for all manner of 'pets'; some don't fare well.

Mark6 · 20th December 2012, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by quarky

Perhaps tigers were a bad example.
There's a large black market for all manner of 'pets'; some don't fare well.

You want a good example? Saltwater aquarium fish.

Freshwater aquarium fish breed well in captivity, at least if you know what you are doing -- and livebearers such as guppies will breed even if you don't know what you are doing. Whereas saltwater fish are almost all taken from the wild. Except for clownfish and maybe couple other species, they are incredibly difficult to get to spawn in a tank.

17th December 2012, 03:20 AM	#1
Scoot Meevo Scholar Join Date: May 2011 Location: Kirkcaldy, Scotland Posts: 80	Animal killing and hokey medicine I've just saw an advert for the WWF on tv telling a story of a found tiger which died as a result of snare injuries. During the ad, the narrator mentioned how the tigers were killed by poachers and bodies parts were sold off as medicine. I wondered just how extensive this problem was. How many animals have been trapped and killed in the name of alternative medicines? The other really obvious one would be rhino horn but I wondered what else was out there?

17th December 2012, 03:30 AM	#2
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,127	Rhinoceros, Water Buffalo, Chinese Alligator, Asian Elephant, Musk Deer, Sun Bear, Grevy’s Zebra, Tiger, Banteng and the Hawksbill Sea Turtle seem to be the most effected.
	__________________ Yes I gave in and configured an avatar.

17th December 2012, 07:04 AM	#3
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	And in a truly ironic twist: At least one of these "alternative medicines" -- bile from bear gall bladder for liver disease, -- has been shown to actually work, and the active ingredient, ursodeoxycholic acid, has been identified, synthesized, and now sold as medicine. You'd think this would stop killing of bears for their gall bladder? All too many Chinese do not believe the synthtic medicine because it is so much cheaper!
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	__________________ Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'"

17th December 2012, 08:38 AM	#4
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	I recently read (sorry, forgot where; I read a lot) that trade in illegal animals was the third largest black market; behind drugs and weapons. So, pretty big stuff. Damn shame, too.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

17th December 2012, 02:59 PM	#7
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	Originally Posted by MikeG This is huge, huge, huge........and it is going on under our noses. Now that the tiger is getting rare and expensive, the Chinese have turned their attention to lions. These are getting poached now, and are in serious decline. In fact, wildlife poaching in Africa has skyrocketted since the Chinese colonisation of the continent began about 8 or 10 years ago. 90% of poaching in Zambia, for instance, happens within 20 miles of a Chinese project......and there are LOTS of those. Pangolins are another of their favourites. Before the world wakes up the rhino, already saved once, will be just about beyond saving, tigers will be rare as hen's teeth, and lions will be in huge trouble. All because of Chinese & Vietnamese traditional medicine. The Africans cannot fight China by themselves. Mike It's not just about bad medicine. Lots of idiots want a tiger as a pet. I've heard that there are more privately owned tigers in the U.S., than in the wild. Bush meat is another issue, which I see as political. Various 'civil' wars and genocidal revolutions have squeezed people into eating and selling whatever they can kill.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

17th December 2012, 09:03 AM	#5
MikeG Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: UK Posts: 1,558	This is huge, huge, huge........and it is going on under our noses. Now that the tiger is getting rare and expensive, the Chinese have turned their attention to lions. These are getting poached now, and are in serious decline. In fact, wildlife poaching in Africa has skyrocketted since the Chinese colonisation of the continent began about 8 or 10 years ago. 90% of poaching in Zambia, for instance, happens within 20 miles of a Chinese project......and there are LOTS of those. Pangolins are another of their favourites. Before the world wakes up the rhino, already saved once, will be just about beyond saving, tigers will be rare as hen's teeth, and lions will be in huge trouble. All because of Chinese & Vietnamese traditional medicine. The Africans cannot fight China by themselves. Mike

19th December 2012, 05:43 AM	#8
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	Originally Posted by quarky It's not just about bad medicine. Lots of idiots want a tiger as a pet. I've heard that there are more privately owned tigers in the U.S., than in the wild. That is true, but why do you think it is a bad thing? It's not like any of these privately owned tigers were taken from the wild -- they are all captive-born, as tigers breed in captivity better than most animals. Famous "white tigers" often used in Las Vegas shows never existed in the wild in the first place -- it's a recent domestic mutation. Domesticating a species is the best way to prevent its extinction.
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	__________________ Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'"

19th December 2012, 09:49 AM	#9
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,532	Recent reports on NPR's The World indicate that such poaching and illegal animal trade is rapidly expanding into organized crime. Previously, indigenous, impoverished peoples would be tempted to take a rhino or elephant to make a few bucks. Now, heavily-armed gangs, hunting from helicopters, are slaughtering animals in large numbers, and intimidating understaffed and underarmed wardens and buying off local authorities. It's an ugly trade.

19th December 2012, 09:59 AM	#10
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,646	Originally Posted by Mark6 You'd think this would stop killing of bears for their gall bladder? As I understand it, the bears aren't generally killed directly for their gall bladders, but caged and catheterised so bile can be collected 'on tap', while the bear still survives. The bears eventually die prematurely after a horrible 'living death'. Some might say this is worse than killing them immediately, although a few have been rescued.
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,646	__________________ Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice... Last edited by dlorde; 19th December 2012 at 10:02 AM.

19th December 2012, 01:42 PM	#11
Capsid Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,506	Originally Posted by dlorde As I understand it, the bears aren't generally killed directly for their gall bladders, but caged and catheterised so bile can be collected 'on tap', while the bear still survives. The bears eventually die prematurely after a horrible 'living death'. Some might say this is worse than killing them immediately, although a few have been rescued. Yes, this practise is truly abhorrent, please donate here and support the work to stop it.
Capsid Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,506

19th December 2012, 02:18 PM	#12
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Bikewer Recent reports on NPR's The World indicate that such poaching and illegal animal trade is rapidly expanding into organized crime. Previously, indigenous, impoverished peoples would be tempted to take a rhino or elephant to make a few bucks. Now, heavily-armed gangs, hunting from helicopters, are slaughtering animals in large numbers, and intimidating understaffed and underarmed wardens and buying off local authorities. It's an ugly trade. "Remember, you are only Game Warden-for-Life. Ehehe hehe ha ha haw haw haw!"
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

20th December 2012, 07:49 AM	#13
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	Originally Posted by Mark6 That is true, but why do you think it is a bad thing? It's not like any of these privately owned tigers were taken from the wild -- they are all captive-born, as tigers breed in captivity better than most animals. Famous "white tigers" often used in Las Vegas shows never existed in the wild in the first place -- it's a recent domestic mutation. Domesticating a species is the best way to prevent its extinction. Perhaps tigers were a bad example. There's a large black market for all manner of 'pets'; some don't fare well.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

20th December 2012, 08:06 AM	#14
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	Originally Posted by quarky Perhaps tigers were a bad example. There's a large black market for all manner of 'pets'; some don't fare well. You want a good example? Saltwater aquarium fish. Freshwater aquarium fish breed well in captivity, at least if you know what you are doing -- and livebearers such as guppies will breed even if you don't know what you are doing. Whereas saltwater fish are almost all taken from the wild. Except for clownfish and maybe couple other species, they are incredibly difficult to get to spawn in a tank.
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	__________________ Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'"