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Old 18th December 2012, 06:25 AM   #1
Quad4_72
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An OUTRAGEOUS Solution to School Shootings

The thousand post thread about the recent school shooting has brought a number of things to light for me. Everyone wants something done to STOP the school shootings. I do as well. Banning guns is not the solution. Whether you like it or not, there is too much support for guns in our country, and even if they were banned, the country is so saturated with guns that there will always be a relatively easy way to obtain one. Some of the evidence presented in the other thread also shows that even in countries with a very low amount of guns per person, the violence is significantly higher. It has also been pointed out that it can be nearly impossible to identify someone crazy enough to execute a mass shooting before they do it. Additionally, Connecticut has some of the toughest gun laws in the country, but yet a mass shooting still occurred.

So what is the answer? I still don't know, but I have an absolutely OUTRAGEOUS idea that will upset quite a bit of people on this forum, but I am going to throw it out there anyways. What if instead of being completely helpless in a school shooting scenario we prepared the teachers/faculty to defend themselves? What if, and this is a very big hypothetical, in the elementary school in Connecticut there were about 5 or so teachers/faculty members who had been trained in the use of firearms and also trained in reacting to an active shooter scenario? And also, what if each of these teachers/faculty members had a vault in their classroom with either a shotgun or a handgun inside?

Absolute LUNACY, I know, but I think it is still worth looking in to. Given the surprising amount of ignorance about guns in our country, this will probably never happen. Now anti gun nutters, let me go ahead and address some of your comments before you post them, because I know they are coming. NO, the guns do not just start going off all of a sudden killing everyone once they get inside of a school. Also no, the teachers are not going to shoot a bunch of kids instead of the shooter if such a scenario occurs (Hence the training). Ok everyone, go ahead and pile on.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:27 AM   #2
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Bad idea. Teachers accidentally shooting students in the mayhem would be catastrophic.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:30 AM   #3
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*Yawn*

Okay, Forum! I think by now we have completely blathered this incident to death and are back to recycling the same-old same-old, which to be fair to Quad, everyone's been doing ever since the tragedy itself.

Here's another outrageous idea. Why don't we all shut up about it now?
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:32 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Bad idea. Teachers accidentally shooting students in the mayhem would be catastrophic.
Oh I already addressed that part in the bottom of my post. Training would just about cut down on all of this. Also if the school implemented, proper lockdown drills and students laying on the floor, crossfire would be negligible.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:33 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
*Yawn*

Okay, Forum! I think by now we have completely blathered this incident to death and are back to recycling the same-old same-old, which to be fair to Quad, everyone's been doing ever since the tragedy itself.

Here's another outrageous idea. Why don't we all shut up about it now?
Meh. Feel free to not post here if you are tired of talking about it. Those that would like to discuss a specific proposed solution, join in.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:34 AM   #6
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Shoot the kids before they start school. That'll stop these school massacres
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:36 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by DrDave View Post
Shoot the kids before they start school. That'll stop these school massacres
How very unproductive. Thank you for that (Not really).
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:36 AM   #8
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Robert Prey's already got this one covered.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=249614


Personally, I don't think either of you have thought this through, teachers can't be everywhere. School shootings will only be stopped when every child is armed.

Last edited by Guybrush Threepwood; 18th December 2012 at 06:41 AM.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:36 AM   #9
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I would have had more sympathy for this idea before I heard Rick Perry favored it.

I think the better solution, at least with regard to the schools, is better security. Buildings and rooms and rooms within rooms which can be secured from the inside, and the routine practice of doing so. Video surveillance, and armed police presence.

Movie theaters should alarm their in-theater fire exits, to prevent the sort of out-and-in tactic employed at Aurora.

Shopping malls will be problematic, but I think better security is the answer there too.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:39 AM   #10
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Yes, it's ridiculous.

Another "solution" I keep hearing is that we can prevent school shootings by beating our kids more to teach them right from wrong. The only reason these school shootings are so prevalent is due to not being allowed to "discipline" our children, they claim. It amazes me that people can say this with a straight face. I lose all respect for a person when they say this. I think these people have never heard of Charles Whitman.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:39 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Robert Prey's already got this one covered.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=249614


Personally, I dn't think either of you have thought this through, teachers can't be everywhere. School shootings will only be stopped when every child is armed.
Damn I didn't look in the USA politics section. I am aware teachers can't be everywhere. But some reaction would be better then no reaction. A couple rounds at least fired in the direction of an active shooter will make him take cover and stop him from massacring people until police arrive. Even better if the teachers could achieve a disabling or kill shot.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:40 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Zelenius View Post
Yes, it's ridiculous.

Another "solution" I keep hearing is that we can prevent school shootings by beating our kids more to teach them right from wrong. The only reason these school shootings are so prevalent is due to not being allowed to "discipline" our children, they claim. It amazes me that people can say this with a straight face. I lose all respect for a person when they say this. I think these people have never heard of Charles Whitman.
Why is it ridiculous? You didn't state a reason.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:44 AM   #13
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Wouldn't it be easier to hire security guards instead?
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:45 AM   #14
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Unless the teachers and/or faculty actually have prior training and active service military or law enforcement experience, it's really a no-go.

This is what I and my friends have come up with, although this woudn't fly either.

Retired LEO's with tactical team experience, still able to pass the PFT, drug and alcohol tested. Fully vetted in every way - volunteer their own time in shifts throughout the school day in their own communities.

I'd rearrange my professional life tommorrow to do so.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:46 AM   #15
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Solution: Install lockdown steel doors for every room, and have a few through the hallways. When a shooting begins, drop the doors and flood the shooter's segment with crazy purple knockout gas.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:46 AM   #16
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I think a better idea would be measures to keep them out of the building in the first place. Most schools already have measures to keep unauthorized people out. Strengthen these measures. Mass killings by guns are only possible if you can gain access to the masses.

Our local HS is brand new. I'm told it has bullet proof glass at the main entrance. The problem I see is it has many entrances and for the most part they're open. Secure what we already have. Most schools did these changes after Columbine.

I really don't see the need for more than diligence in the security we already have.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:49 AM   #17
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CCWs

http://www.policeone.com/active-shoo...emy-is-denial/

Arm every teacher no, Have an armed security guard, or maybe a trusted member of the senior facility such as the Principal or Vice Principal YES.

Also create new security features, we have 0 student deaths from fires why? Because we prepare for them, sprinklers, fire resistant materials, alarms and drills.

We need the same things for schools, restrict access into the buildings during school hours. Tempered Glass windows to stop people from breaking in. Train facility on how to safely evacuate the school in the event of an active shooter. Have an alarm system that send an alert to nearby police so they can quickly respond. Have a armed security guard or facility member trained to engage the shooter if necessary.

Sandy Hook was chosen because it was a soft target. No security and a gun free zone.No one thought it could happen there. All other incidents it was a student doing the shooting. Aurora CO, no security. Holmes was able to get in the building through the emergency exits, Lanza broke through a window.

Above Link has the five D's

Denial
Deter
Detect
Delay
Destroy

last line he talks ....

g. Armed citizens can help. Think United 93. Whatever your personal take on gun control, it is all but certain that a killer set on killing is more likely to attack a target where the citizens are unarmed, rather than one where they are likely to encounter an armed citizen response.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:49 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Unless the teachers and/or faculty actually have prior training and active service military or law enforcement experience, it's really a no-go.

This is what I and my friends have come up with, although this woudn't fly either.

Retired LEO's with tactical team experience, still able to pass the PFT, drug and alcohol tested. Fully vetted in every way - volunteer their own time in shifts throughout the school day in their own communities.

I'd rearrange my professional life tommorrow to do so.
I really like that idea BStrong. I never thought of it like that. Sort of like volunteer fire fighters, right? I think that may be the best idea I have heard yet. Now what kind of legislation and lobbying would it take to allow such individuals to carry in schools and be approved to undertake that job?
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:50 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by surrogate View Post
Wouldn't it be easier to hire security guards instead?
For the most part, security guards, even armed officers, don't receive but a fraction of actual training required to automaticlly respond with force in a lawful manner to stop a threat - no knock on them but thery're more window dressing than deterrent.

Security contractors are a whole different animal, and there's too much negative connatation involved to make that work either. I can hear code pink now They're mercanaries above the law!
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:50 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Everyone wants something done to STOP the school shootings. [..]
Wrong.
The more students gets shot, the more space there is for anybody else in this resource-constrained planet.
And I am too old to be at risk to be shot in a college
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:51 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by DrDave View Post
Shoot the kids before they start school. That'll stop these school massacres
Tear down every school. This tragedy can never happen again!
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:51 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Warrior1461 View Post
http://www.policeone.com/active-shoo...emy-is-denial/

Arm every teacher no, Have an armed security guard, or maybe a trusted member of the senior facility such as the Principal or Vice Principal YES.

Also create new security features, we have 0 student deaths from fires why? Because we prepare for them, sprinklers, fire resistant materials, alarms and drills.

We need the same things for schools, restrict access into the buildings during school hours. Tempered Glass windows to stop people from breaking in. Train facility on how to safely evacuate the school in the event of an active shooter. Have an alarm system that send an alert to nearby police so they can quickly respond. Have a armed security guard or facility member trained to engage the shooter if necessary.

Sandy Hook was chosen because it was a soft target. No security and a gun free zone.No one thought it could happen there. All other incidents it was a student doing the shooting. Aurora CO, no security. Holmes was able to get in the building through the emergency exits, Lanza broke through a window.

Above Link has the five D's

Denial
Deter
Detect
Delay
Destroy

last line he talks ....

g. Armed citizens can help. Think United 93. Whatever your personal take on gun control, it is all but certain that a killer set on killing is more likely to attack a target where the citizens are unarmed, rather than one where they are likely to encounter an armed citizen response.
This is also a great idea, and the kind of thing I was getting at in my main post. I really like BStrong idea as well.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:52 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by John Mekki View Post
Wrong.
The more students gets shot, the more space there is for anybody else in this resource-constrained planet.
And I am too old to be at risk to be shot in a college
Troll. Go away.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:54 AM   #24
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Increase the Sales?puchase tax on guns according to how powerful they and also increase the cost the of permits and licences for them according to their power.

The less powerful the weapon you buy is the less you pay.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:55 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Why is it ridiculous? You didn't state a reason.
I think there would be a lot of opposition from teachers and parents to this. Firearms training shouldn't be a requirement for people who want to teach in elementary school, even if its only a few teachers. It militarizes the teaching profession. I don't like the idea of turning elementary schools into armed encampments. It shouldn't have to come to this. This is why I think it is "ridiculous", even though I admit it could work if implemented.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:56 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
I really like that idea BStrong. I never thought of it like that. Sort of like volunteer fire fighters, right? I think that may be the best idea I have heard yet. Now what kind of legislation and lobbying would it take to allow such individuals to carry in schools and be approved to undertake that job?
It won't fly.

School Administrators in California don't want armed uniformed LEO's in school unless the local government forces them to - there have been cases where calls for service have been made from a school, the officer comes out and is ordered off school property by the school administration - no ****.

The single best defense to an active shooter situation would be armed professionals on site beforehand, but it's such a charged political issue that the administrators and the squeaky wheel (generally liberal) school board types would never allow it - even in the face of Newtown.

That breaks my heart too - I could give back to my community in the only way I am really qualified to do so, but in the eyes of some I'd be a dirty bastard for even suggesting it.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:58 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
Increase the Sales?puchase tax on guns according to how powerful they and also increase the cost the of permits and licences for them according to their power.

The less powerful the weapon you buy is the less you pay.
There's already an 11% federal tax on all sporting firearms and ammunition - but you knew that, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman...estoration_Act
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:02 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
It won't fly.

School Administrators in California don't want armed uniformed LEO's in school unless the local government forces them to - there have been cases where calls for service have been made from a school, the officer comes out and is ordered off school property by the school administration - no ****.
I don't know that school administration has weighed in, but the police department in Los Angeles has announced that when school resumes they intend to have an officer drop by every school every day. It won't be a presence, and sounds more like "doing something just so we can say we're doing something", but that's what they're saying.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:03 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
For the most part, security guards, even armed officers, don't receive but a fraction of actual training required to automaticlly respond with force in a lawful manner to stop a threat - no knock on them but thery're more window dressing than deterrent.

Security contractors are a whole different animal, and there's too much negative connatation involved to make that work either. I can hear code pink now They're mercanaries above the law!
Of course they would have to be properly trained. It seems more sensible to me than expecting teachers/administrators to do it.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:05 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
It won't fly.

School Administrators in California don't want armed uniformed LEO's in school unless the local government forces them to - there have been cases where calls for service have been made from a school, the officer comes out and is ordered off school property by the school administration - no ****.

The single best defense to an active shooter situation would be armed professionals on site beforehand, but it's such a charged political issue that the administrators and the squeaky wheel (generally liberal) school board types would never allow it - even in the face of Newtown.

That breaks my heart too - I could give back to my community in the only way I am really qualified to do so, but in the eyes of some I'd be a dirty bastard for even suggesting it.
That truly is a shame. I think that your idea is by far the most reasonable one to implement as well, and it would take little or no resources from the schools. Perhaps a less liberal state could implement it and lead by example.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:05 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post

That breaks my heart too - I could give back to my community in the only way I am really qualified to do so, but in the eyes of some I'd be a dirty bastard for even suggesting it.
Although I see your point, I disagree for other reasons.

I don't believe it would be good for the kids to see the place they have to go everyday as a dangerous place that needs armed guards. Passive methods would really be just as effective without the emotional stress involved with armed guards.

Tell me don't feel just a little nervous going to the airport past the state troupers with their guns, now do this everyday.
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Last edited by DGM; 18th December 2012 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:08 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Zelenius View Post
I think there would be a lot of opposition from teachers and parents to this. Firearms training shouldn't be a requirement for people who want to teach in elementary school, even if its only a few teachers. It militarizes the teaching profession. I don't like the idea of turning elementary schools into armed encampments. It shouldn't have to come to this. This is why I think it is "ridiculous", even though I admit it could work if implemented.
In that aspect i agree with you that it is ridiculous, even though it would work. The idea that bstrong has though really is reasonable.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:11 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
The thousand post thread about the recent school shooting has brought a number of things to light for me. Everyone wants something done to STOP the school shootings. I do as well. Banning guns is not the solution. Whether you like it or not, there is too much support for guns in our country, and even if they were banned, the country is so saturated with guns that there will always be a relatively easy way to obtain one. Some of the evidence presented in the other thread also shows that even in countries with a very low amount of guns per person, the violence is significantly higher. It has also been pointed out that it can be nearly impossible to identify someone crazy enough to execute a mass shooting before they do it. Additionally, Connecticut has some of the toughest gun laws in the country, but yet a mass shooting still occurred.

So what is the answer? I still don't know, but I have an absolutely OUTRAGEOUS idea that will upset quite a bit of people on this forum, but I am going to throw it out there anyways. What if instead of being completely helpless in a school shooting scenario we prepared the teachers/faculty to defend themselves? What if, and this is a very big hypothetical, in the elementary school in Connecticut there were about 5 or so teachers/faculty members who had been trained in the use of firearms and also trained in reacting to an active shooter scenario? And also, what if each of these teachers/faculty members had a vault in their classroom with either a shotgun or a handgun inside?

Absolute LUNACY, I know, but I think it is still worth looking in to. Given the surprising amount of ignorance about guns in our country, this will probably never happen. Now anti gun nutters, let me go ahead and address some of your comments before you post them, because I know they are coming. NO, the guns do not just start going off all of a sudden killing everyone once they get inside of a school. Also no, the teachers are not going to shoot a bunch of kids instead of the shooter if such a scenario occurs (Hence the training). Ok everyone, go ahead and pile on.

I see; guns are not the problem,...but more guns is the answer!
brilliant!
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:12 AM   #34
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What's next? Making room for Jebus?
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:13 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Although I see your point, I disagree for other reasons.

I don't believe it would be good for the kids to see the place they have to go everyday as a dangerous place that needs armed guards. Passive methods would really be just as effective without the emotional stress involved with armed guards.

Tell me don't feel just a little nervous going to the airport past the state troupers with their guns, now do this everyday.
Dgm your point is strictly emotional, and i have no idea what passive measures you think would stop a crazed man with a gun from entering a school who is hell bent on doing so. No one is suggesting that a member of the military walk around the school in full battle rattle. We are suggesting a plain clothes guy with a concealed weapon walkin around the school, possibly having a rifle locked up in a safe somewhere. Hell, he would t even have to walk around. He could just hang out in the faculty lounge ready to respond should something go down. That is better then nothing. Your fear of state troopers and their guns is very irrational and does not belong in this discussion.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:24 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Dgm your point is strictly emotional, and i have no idea what passive measures you think would stop a crazed man with a gun from entering a school who is hell bent on doing so. No one is suggesting that a member of the military walk around the school in full battle rattle. We are suggesting a plain clothes guy with a concealed weapon walkin around the school, possibly having a rifle locked up in a safe somewhere. Hell, he would t even have to walk around. He could just hang out in the faculty lounge ready to respond should something go down. That is better then nothing. Your fear of state troopers and their guns is very irrational and does not belong in this discussion.
My reply in post #16 explains what I mean as passive. If you make the target harder this will deter all but the truly motivated, that nothing is going to stop.

I have no fear of law enforcement because I'm not doing anything wrong. You can't tell me that when a cop pulls up behind you in your car, you don't start being extra careful.

I object to this for the same reason I objected to arming the pilots after 9/11. Keep the perpetrators out and you've solved the problem.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:43 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
DGM your point is strictly emotional.
My point would be, there is nothing you can do to guarantee complete safety.

School shootings are exceedingly rare if you consider how many schools and school hours there are every year. In my town of ~29K there are 6 schools. Nothing even remotely violent has happened here. Do the math for the whole country.

Ask this, What would have stopped this from happening?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:43 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Oh I already addressed that part in the bottom of my post. Training would just about cut down on all of this. Also if the school implemented, proper lockdown drills and students laying on the floor, crossfire would be negligible.
Until the teacher goes insane and shoots people himself.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:45 AM   #39
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How would that have worked in Newtown? Would the principal have had time to unlock a vault and retrieve a gun before confronting the shooter? Should teachers have left small children to fend for themselves while they charge into action?

Originally Posted by DGM View Post
I think a better idea would be measures to keep them out of the building in the first place. Most schools already have measures to keep unauthorized people out. Strengthen these measures. Mass killings by guns are only possible if you can gain access to the masses.

Our local HS is brand new. I'm told it has bullet proof glass at the main entrance. The problem I see is it has many entrances and for the most part they're open. Secure what we already have. Most schools did these changes after Columbine.
I really hate to say it. But all the building security in the world isn't going to keep a shooter from playgrounds at recess time.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:46 AM   #40
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Educate American children inside giant ball bearings.
Problems using the stairs would free up schools' upper floors to house homeless snipers.
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