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Old 18th December 2012, 06:50 AM   #41
DGM
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Originally Posted by iknownothing View Post
How would that have worked in Newtown? Would the principal have had time to unlock a vault and retrieve a gun before confronting the shooter? Should teachers have left small children to fend for themselves while they charge into action?



I really hate to say it. But all the building security in the world isn't going to keep a shooter from playgrounds at recess time.
You're right.

Fortunately these things are not the norm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

This was (link above) the worst school disaster in the countries history. Suggestions as to what should be done to prevent it from happening again?
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:52 AM   #42
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Another suggestion all would be gun owning families have to take a psychriatric and medical test before being allowed a licence at their own cost.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:54 AM   #43
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How much training are you proposing for your cadre of armed school staff? How often would he have to retrain and practice?
How often would you have 'School massacre Drills' and what would they include?

What stops an intruder shooting the trained teacher before he gets his gun out of his safe and ready?

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 18th December 2012 at 07:04 AM.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:55 AM   #44
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Solutions? I don't know at all. I think the focus on school building security just gives people a false sense of security, because like I said, there's still the playground (or public parks, swimming pools, etc.). Banning guns would be futile at this point, since there are so many available.

The best I can come up with at the moment is to pay attention when people make threats. I don't know yet whether this guy spilled any of his plan ahead of time, but a lot of them seem to. How can we respond when someone starts talking about that?
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:57 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by iknownothing View Post
Solutions? I don't know at all. I think the focus on school building security just gives people a false sense of security, because like I said, there's still the playground (or public parks, swimming pools, etc.). Banning guns would be futile at this point, since there are so many available.

The best I can come up with at the moment is to pay attention when people make threats. I don't know yet whether this guy spilled any of his plan ahead of time, but a lot of them seem to. How can we respond when someone starts talking about that?
You're exactly right. There's nothing really wrong with a sense of security when the risk is exceedingly low (it also deters all but the highly motivated). Most reactive ideas are only to make people feel good that they are "doing something" but, really are of no practical use.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:58 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
Another suggestion all would be gun owning families have to take a psychriatric and medical test before being allowed a licence at their own cost.
That's another thing. Focusing on screening the guy buyer is another false sense of security. Nancy Lanza was the buyer, but it was her son who killed.

And, someone can pass psych screens at one point in their life and lose it later. We just had 3 bodies found here locally -- a guy shot his wife, the kid they were guardians of, and himself. He'd been buying guns for years -- maybe he was fine a few years ago! But obviously something went wrong lately.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:59 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
You're exactly right. There's nothing really wrong with a sense of security when the risk is exceedingly low.
Yes, the risk is exceedingly low. And?
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:00 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How much training are you proposing for your cadre of armed school staff? How often would he have to retrain and practice?
How often would you have 'School massacre Dills' and what would they include?

What stops an intruder shooting the trained teacher before he gets his gun out of his safe and ready?
Where can I get a jar of those?
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:01 AM   #49
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Take a look at Europe.

We have plenty of crazies here but being much harder to find guns when they have a fit they have to resort to katanas, axes, knives... so the death toll is much much lower. (see the wikipedia list of school shootings in the US and other countryes... says all)

So perhaps the solution is to begin to undestand that as society becomes more civilised, guns are going to become obsolete, little by little, so it wouldnīt be such a bad idea to start limiting their availability, more control etc.

Seriously, your idea of getting more guns in the classroom sounds quite crazy from my (gun free) perspective.

Last edited by Abooga; 18th December 2012 at 07:02 AM.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:02 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by iknownothing View Post
Yes, the risk is exceedingly low. And?
See edit.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:02 AM   #51
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All the above illustrates just how sticky the question becomes. Arm teachers? This is being seriously proposed on numerous levels... Even our local county police dept. has made some noises in this regard.
Police, military, security people... All go into their respective jobs knowing that armed confrontation is a possibility. Elementary-school teachers? Not so much. There's a mind-set involved. I would hazard that most in the teaching professions don't have it.

Improved school-building security? Might help... Evidently this kid simply shot his way through a glass door. Good hardware and access control might help... But then there is always the playground, or the time of day when the kids get out of school and are picked up...
Mental health screening prior to purchasing a weapon? In many cases, these shootings are not committed by people who are detectably demented, or they simply went bad AFTER legally obtaining weapons.
Remember, a lot of these folks are not "insane"; rather, they "snap" after a long period of building frustration, depression, and whatever.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:05 AM   #52
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Surround American schools with giant circular magnets so it's impossible to enter the building with any metal on your person.

The more persistent child-murderers will end up stuck to the magnet and will only be able to shoot directly up or directly down. Ban skydiving in these areas.

Last edited by Doctor Plop; 18th December 2012 at 07:08 AM.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:08 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by iknownothing View Post
How would that have worked in Newtown? Would the principal have had time to unlock a vault and retrieve a gun before confronting the shooter? Should teachers have left small children to fend for themselves while they charge into action?



I really hate to say it. But all the building security in the world isn't going to keep a shooter from playgrounds at recess time.
I dont know if thebprincipal would have been able to unlock a vault in time. If his first target was her without warning, then no. If she heard shooting first, then yes possibly. Either way, what harm would it cause for her to have the ability to defend herself, or the other teachers at the least being able to keep their kids in the classroom and defend them if needed?

Regardless, i like the idea of retired leos and military personnel volunteering their time to help with security.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:09 AM   #54
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We might add to this thread. What's being done to protect everyone from suicide bombers. The occurrence is more frequent. I think the split is relevant.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:11 AM   #55
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Any solution for keeping children safer in schools that puts the preservation of gun ownership rights as its highest priority should be immediately rejected as unserious.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:11 AM   #56
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Itīs not like an armed militia would stand a chance against the ultra technological US Army, would it?
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:13 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
We might add to this thread. What's being done to protect everyone from suicide bombers.
We started a war against those most likely to do it.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:15 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Any solution for keeping children safer in schools that puts the preservation of gun ownership rights as its highest priority should be immediately rejected as unserious.
I'd like to know who suggesting this. Could this be just your knee-jerk. If there was no guns does this mean they're safe?
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:16 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
We started a war against those most likely to do it.
Call me when you start making sense. K?
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:17 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How much training are you proposing for your cadre of armed school staff? How often would he have to retrain and practice?
How often would you have 'School massacre Drills' and what would they include?

What stops an intruder shooting the trained teacher before he gets his gun out of his safe and ready?
I dont have a plan for the exact logistics. I was mainlynproposing the idea. And what is with people presenting these POINTLESS scenarios about "well what if he shoots the teacher before he gets to his gun!!!!!omg you didnt think o that did you?!?!? Man am i clever!" Well the obvious answer to that is the teacher will be dead and unable to do anything. What is more likely is that a teacher would hear the shooting and have plenty of time to open a safe. Its not like a shooter can be in every classroom all at once. Schools are pretty big places you know...
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:50 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
You're exactly right. There's nothing really wrong with a sense of security when the risk is exceedingly low (it also deters all but the highly motivated). Most reactive ideas are only to make people feel good that they are "doing something" but, really are of no practical use.
Agreed. The problem is that schools have a limited budget. There are plenty that don't even maintain a school nurse. I'd hate to see that position cut out in favor of armed guards.

Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
Take a look at Europe.

We have plenty of crazies here but being much harder to find guns when they have a fit they have to resort to katanas, axes, knives... so the death toll is much much lower. (see the wikipedia list of school shootings in the US and other countryes... says all)
Yes. But the problem is there are already millions of guns privately owned in America. And these shooters tend to plan things out in advance, so they'd have plenty of time to find an illegal way to obtain one of the many, many guns that are out there.

Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
What is more likely is that a teacher would hear the shooting and have plenty of time to open a safe. Its not like a shooter can be in every classroom all at once. Schools are pretty big places you know...
Here's my problem with that. While the teacher is unlocking her gun safe and expertly following her hard-core training in taking down a madman, who's watching the kids?

One of the things I've been struck with is what a good job this school did of protecting the students. The principal turning on the intercom, teachers locking doors & hiding children, keeping them calm & quiet. You've said to train the kids to lie on the floor -- that's great, but with 6 year olds they still need an adult to remain with them. If the teacher is racing down the hall to shoot it out with the bad guy, the kids will freak out and forget their safety precautions.

I'd rather have teachers teach.

Last edited by iknownothing; 18th December 2012 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 18th December 2012, 08:02 AM   #62
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Arming ex cops and vets and putting htem on patrol will just see them as the first target unless you are considering putting a number of them in each school so they can protect each other.
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Old 18th December 2012, 08:13 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
Itīs not like an armed militia would stand a chance against the ultra technological US Army, would it?
America's longest war would suggest otherwise.
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Old 18th December 2012, 08:31 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
America's longest war would suggest otherwise.
Which one would that be?
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Old 18th December 2012, 08:41 AM   #65
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I'm not really certain I understand the idea that the solution to this problem is adding more guns. In a world where no do-gooder ever misses and hits an innocent, it'd work. Otherwise, nah.

*Reports say the teacher was shot in the shoulder and went down as she was firing. Two bullets found a mark among her students.*
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Old 18th December 2012, 08:52 AM   #66
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First problem:
Humans have crappy situational awareness and don't know it. Cops spend years training to overcome this and their skills are perishable if they don't retrain. Soldiers, outside of a few elite units, are only slightly better than average and far worse than a cop at this. Example of where the situational awareness breaks down? Ask Pat Tillman's family about it.

Second problem:
Arming non-professionals with guns to protect kids is a non-starter. We already cannot afford to pay teachers what they are worth. Nobody is going to come up with the money to teach them to be competent marksmen in a crisis.

The best training you could give the teachers would be to evacuate the building by any means necessary. If you want to spend real money to make things safer start redesigning the schools so that every classroom has two exits that don't open into the same hallway.
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Old 18th December 2012, 08:58 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Bad idea. Teachers accidentally shooting students in the mayhem would be catastrophic.
Plus then we will have shootings done by crazy teachers.
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Old 18th December 2012, 09:05 AM   #68
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What's outrageous is that the problem is absurdly simple (even if its solution is not).

Like the fire combustion triangle there are three factors which, if one were absent, would mean no mass shooting:

1) availability of weapons;
2) group of potential victims;
3) malevolent perpetrator.
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Old 18th December 2012, 09:07 AM   #69
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Quote:
Absolute LUNACY, I know
</thread>

Quote:
Plus then we will have shootings done by crazy teachers.
Or Breiviks posing as "legally armed teachers"/police officers, or shooters going for the armed teachers first.

Quote:
Quote:
Itīs not like an armed militia would stand a chance against the ultra technological US Army, would it?
America's longest war would suggest otherwise.
Do you mean Afghanistan or Iraq, where the insurgency failed to drive the US out until the US... oh, decided to leave on its own accord?

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Old 18th December 2012, 09:14 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Any solution for keeping children safer in schools that puts the preservation of gun ownership rights as its highest priority should be immediately rejected as unserious.
And yet this is what's being proposed not just by Quad, but by politicians. There is a correlation in the US between higher gun ownership and a higher gun death rate. Adding guns worsens the problem.
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Old 18th December 2012, 09:15 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Plus then we will have shootings done by crazy teachers.
And this is another good point.
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Old 18th December 2012, 09:19 AM   #72
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At the school I was teaching at (and all I have been to in my county) the rear (external access) doors to all buildings were kept locked and the classroom doors are all kept locked. The doors each have an app. 2 x 3 foot w/wire criss/crossed in it pane of resistant glass. In my room, absent guns or such naughty things , there was always a 500 ml flask or three of some interesting chemicals out for "demonstration purposes" and we were lucky as we had a back door that led to another classroom if a breach occured. Not that the school heads thought of it, but our room had tables designed to be science resistant - they would not be easily breached by the fire of normally carried "assault) rifles. and the door/entry design allowed for an initial protected assault on the attacker upon entrance in a break through.

I liked my room!!!
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Old 18th December 2012, 09:21 AM   #73
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Even though some of these ideas might work, there is still the question of how it gets paid for. Only the most affluent school districts would be able to afford some of the things proposed. So we allow the poor kids to remain vulnerable? I wonder if the gun owners would be willing to pay additional tax on new guns, plus a recurring annual tax or license fee on existing guns to fund these measures. The current 11% Federal tax is less than that for cigarettes and alcohol. Since all of these proposals are only so gun owners can keep their guns, I assume they have no problem paying for all this additional security, right?
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Old 18th December 2012, 09:23 AM   #74
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What if, instead of requiring firearms and combat training for people who want to be schoolteachers, we require firearms and combat training for people who want to buy a handgun for self-defense? And what if we also require people who purchase guns to be trained in the proper and safe storage of said guns in order to prevent them from being stolen and used to commit mass murder?
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Old 18th December 2012, 09:24 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by iknownothing View Post
I really hate to say it. But all the building security in the world isn't going to keep a shooter from playgrounds at recess time.
There is no law that says the only barrier allowed between a playground and the street is a chain link fence.
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Old 18th December 2012, 09:27 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Psi Baba View Post
Even though some of these ideas might work, there is still the question of how it gets paid for. Only the most affluent school districts would be able to afford some of the things proposed. So we allow the poor kids to remain vulnerable? I wonder if the gun owners would be willing to pay additional tax on new guns, plus a recurring annual tax or license fee on existing guns to fund these measures. The current 11% Federal tax is less than that for cigarettes and alcohol. Since all of these proposals are only so gun owners can keep their guns, I assume they have no problem paying for all this additional security, right?
Every school I've seen has doors that lock and two means of egress (it's fire code) . I don't see how diligence and possible class room locks would be all that costly.
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Old 18th December 2012, 09:27 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by iknownothing View Post
That's another thing. Focusing on screening the guy buyer is another false sense of security. Nancy Lanza was the buyer, but it was her son who killed.

And, someone can pass psych screens at one point in their life and lose it later. We just had 3 bodies found here locally -- a guy shot his wife, the kid they were guardians of, and himself. He'd been buying guns for years -- maybe he was fine a few years ago! But obviously something went wrong lately.
So screening buyers is likely to be less effective than hardening soft targets.

If the windows in the Newtown school had been made of something that couldn't be shot out, the murderer might not have been able to force his way inside.
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Old 18th December 2012, 09:30 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And this is another good point.
Please, do tell how that is a "good point". Are teachers unable to access guns now? It seems that you and others like to suggest that when guns are immediately available, people become murderous and go crazy.
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Old 18th December 2012, 09:38 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by zeggman View Post
There is no law that says the only barrier allowed between a playground and the street is a chain link fence.
So we build walls around playgrounds or something? Again, budget is an issue. And again, that just means that the next mass murderer just shifts his plan to kill kids to a park, zoo, etc.

Originally Posted by zeggman View Post
So screening buyers is likely to be less effective than hardening soft targets.

If the windows in the Newtown school had been made of something that couldn't be shot out, the murderer might not have been able to force his way inside.
The guy planned this out. If there had been bullet-proof glass, he would have altered his plans accordingly.

If you have a) people who want to commit mass murder, and b) easily available weapons, then there is no beefed-up security level that will protect against it.

I don't see how we can make weapons less available, considering how saturated the country is with them. And I don't believe there are any realistic, affordable security levels that will make someone intent on mass murder give up & decide not to do it after all; they will just plan around them. I really don't know the ideal answer, but feel-good measures that cost a bundle and don't actually help are not the answer.
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Old 18th December 2012, 09:40 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And yet this is what's being proposed not just by Quad, but by politicians. There is a correlation in the US between higher gun ownership and a higher gun death rate. Adding guns worsens the problem.
It's not just "Adding more guns". It is a bit dishonest to phrase it that way. Its not like I am advocating tossing a pile of guns into the school and saying 'Defend yourselves!". I am advocating giving a few select individuals the ability to defend themselves and the kids should such an awful scenario arrise. But to be honest, I like the idea of retired LEOs and military vets volunteering their time to serve their community by helping out with security at their local schools.
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