JREF Homepage Swift Blog Events Calendar $1 Million Paranormal Challenge The Amaz!ng Meeting Useful Links Support Us
James Randi Educational Foundation JREF Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   JREF Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
Click Here To Donate

Notices


Welcome to the JREF Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.

Reply
Old 26th December 2012, 12:36 AM   #81
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Some other planet
Posts: 46,522
Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
I'll have to disagree. I feel (personally, having grown up with guns, and been shooting them since I was a kid) that if you teach a child to respect a gun, and to use it properly, chances are they will respect them for their lifetime.

My father taught me gun safety starting at about 7 years old with BB guns. AS I got older, it progressed into different weapons and so on.

Now, there's not many weapons I wouldn't know how to operate safely, with a few exceptions. And I'm teaching my son the same way. I've drilled into his head gun safety. I'd bet he's better about gun safety than some adults.

That's just my opinion though.
Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
Actually, the idea sucks. They should learn early on to take the weapon seriously. As long as the adult who hands that child a weapon knows what he is doing and teaches the child the safety and legal aspectsof ir, by all means, start educating the child. I will probably be taking my eldest grandson to the range when the weather turns nice in May. I taught my son to shoot at a much later age and he never really got much into rifles. Might have had somethng to do with starting out on a 91/30.
No! I completely disagree. Giving guns to children simply perpetuates the attitude, the culture, that guns are "normal" and an everyday and expected part of life. They're not - or they shouldn't be. Guns are specialised tools used for particular purposes. They should not be everyday items, and there should not be a gun in every house. You don't - or shouldn't - own a gun the same way you own a wristwatch. And you shouldn't give children the idea that owning a gun is as normal as owning a wristwatch.

Your Second Amendment is a 19th-century law for a 19th-century society. It is antiquated and dangerous to modern society. Owning guns is not a "right" on the same level as the right to freedom of speech, association or religion. If you want to know what human rights are, this is the place to start. Notice how the right to bear arms is not mentioned.

Until you throw away the hundreds-of-years-old idea that people "need" guns - that guns are a normal part of everyday life - America will continue to have a gun crime rate that skyrockets above every other developed country in the world. Repeal the Second Amendment. While you're at it, get rid of the Ninth, too. It seems like a potential minefield. Most of the rest are pretty good.
__________________
Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 12:53 AM   #82
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,351
Originally Posted by MontagK505 View Post
Are people less dead if they are murdered at longer intervals rather than in batches?

How much has the murder rate improved in Australia?
It's a long report, but murder rates in 2009 and 2010 are the lowest for decades and the trend line has been heading steadily downwards:

http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/0/B/...%7Dfacts11.pdf

Moreover, murder by firearms has reduced from nearly 40% to under 20% from its highest in the 1960s to now. This report is a bit earlier and shows the downward trend in both homicides and gun related homicides.

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html

Equally importantly to the public, the number of firearm mass murders has reduced to zero. The only people who deny the effectiveness of the firearm restrictions are Australian gun nuts.

ETA I should add for those who don't realise it that the homicide rate in Australia is less than a quarter of the US.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill

Last edited by lionking; 26th December 2012 at 01:02 AM.
lionking is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:03 AM   #83
OnlyTellsTruths
 
OnlyTellsTruths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,510
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Look, I know how uncomfortable it must be for when faced with evidence that banning semi-automatics and handguns saves lives, but to pretend that this strategy has not been successful in Australia is simply ridiculous.

Banning automobiles for recreational purposes would save way more lives than that...

In Australia you are still allowed to drive even if you have no where important to go. Why is that? It costs way more lives than guns did.

You should only be allowed to drive automobiles to work. Or perhaps mass transit only, that would save even more lives.
__________________
________________________
OnlyTellsTruths is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:03 AM   #84
Sam.I.Am
Illuminator
 
Sam.I.Am's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hunting Moose and Squirrel
Posts: 4,566
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No! I completely disagree. Giving guns to children simply perpetuates the attitude, the culture, that guns are "normal" and an everyday and expected part of life. They're not - or they shouldn't be. Guns are specialised tools used for particular purposes. They should not be everyday items, and there should not be a gun in every house. You don't - or shouldn't - own a gun the same way you own a wristwatch. And you shouldn't give children the idea that owning a gun is as normal as owning a wristwatch.

Your Second Amendment is a 19th-century law for a 19th-century society. It is antiquated and dangerous to modern society. Owning guns is not a "right" on the same level as the right to freedom of speech, association or religion. If you want to know what human rights are, this is the place to start. Notice how the right to bear arms is not mentioned.

Until you throw away the hundreds-of-years-old idea that people "need" guns - that guns are a normal part of everyday life - America will continue to have a gun crime rate that skyrockets above every other developed country in the world. Repeal the Second Amendment. While you're at it, get rid of the Ninth, too. It seems like a potential minefield. Most of the rest are pretty good.
I was going to comment on this:

Quote:
Article 3.

  • Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Then I kept reading. I got to the "Right" to paid holidays and closed the page. Really? Paid holidays as a right? What a crock.

And as far as the ninth goes I don't see what the problem is.

Quote:
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
In other words they were saying that just because we didn't write it down here it doesn't mean that those rights don't exist or that they are abrogated to the federal government by default..
__________________
"Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"...

About my avatar.

Last edited by Sam.I.Am; 26th December 2012 at 01:05 AM.
Sam.I.Am is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:06 AM   #85
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,351
Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
Banning automobiles for recreational purposes would save way more lives than that...

In Australia you are still allowed to drive even if you have no where important to go. Why is that? It costs way more lives than guns did.

You should only be allowed to drive automobiles to work. Or perhaps mass transit only, that would save even more lives.
This sort of argument is childish and has been refuted time and time again (along with swimming pools, football and golf clubs). That so many Americans think it valid is quite telling.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:16 AM   #86
OnlyTellsTruths
 
OnlyTellsTruths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,510
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
This sort of argument is childish and has been refuted time and time again (along with swimming pools, football and golf clubs). That so many Americans think it valid is quite telling.

You wish it had been refuted.

Face reality. Your country cares very little about the safety of its citizens if it does not ban automobiles for recreational purposes.

To so blatantly choose freedom over the lives of your citizens is absolutely disgusting.

Those other things you mention don't come anywhere near the number of deaths caused by autos. Neither did guns.
__________________
________________________
OnlyTellsTruths is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:20 AM   #87
HotRodDeluxe
Critical Thinker
 
HotRodDeluxe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Constantinopolis
Posts: 301
Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
You wish it had been refuted.

Face reality. Your country cares very little about the safety of its citizens if it does not ban automobiles for recreational purposes.

To so blatantly choose freedom over the lives of your citizens is absolutely disgusting.

Those other things you mention don't come anywhere near the number of deaths caused by autos. Neither did guns.
Bottom line: we don't have crazies wandering into schools killing 20 or more kids. I don't recall anyone going crazy and driving a Holden into a classroom full of children.
HotRodDeluxe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:22 AM   #88
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,351
Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
You wish it had been refuted.

Face reality. Your country cares very little about the safety of its citizens if it does not ban automobiles for recreational purposes.

To so blatantly choose freedom over the lives of your citizens is absolutely disgusting.

Those other things you mention don't come anywhere near the number of deaths caused by autos. Neither did guns.
Monumentally ridiculous. Here we go again:

1. Cars, unlike guns, are not designed to kill
2. Cars, and driver behaviour, are heavily regulated. Back in the 1970s my state of Victoria had over 1000 road deaths. Strict laws against drink driving and speeding were put in place; seat belts mandated; young drivers restricted, and so on. The result? The road toll is around 250. We put heavy restrictions on firearms with positive results.
3. Restricting cars in the way you suggest would cripple the US economy. Restricting guns? Nah.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:24 AM   #89
OnlyTellsTruths
 
OnlyTellsTruths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,510
Originally Posted by HotRodDeluxe View Post
Bottom line: we don't have crazies wandering into schools killing 20 or more kids. I don't recall anyone going crazy and driving a Holden into a classroom full of children.

You really need to see the forest for the trees.

Total number of lives you could save is what is important, not how many people died in any one particular automobile accident.

Individually shocking incidents would only matter if your emotions were involved.
__________________
________________________
OnlyTellsTruths is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:26 AM   #90
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,351
Not enough laughing dogs....
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:26 AM   #91
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Some other planet
Posts: 46,522
Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am View Post
I was going to comment on this:

Then I kept reading. I got to the "Right" to paid holidays and closed the page. Really? Paid holidays as a right? What a crock.
*shrug* Well, you can go against the rest of the freaking world on this one. Don't want to sign up to the UN Universal Declaration on Human Rights? Fine. Join Saudi Arabia. Even Iran and Pakistan recognise this document.

Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am View Post
And as far as the ninth goes I don't see what the problem is.

In other words they were saying that just because we didn't write it down here it doesn't mean that those rights don't exist or that they are abrogated to the federal government by default..
"Everything not included shall be deemed included." It basically means you can make it up as you go along. Don't have the right to sacrifice children? Here you go! The Ninth Amendment says that you do. Okay, that was a bit of an extreme example, but I hope you get my point.
__________________
Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:30 AM   #92
OnlyTellsTruths
 
OnlyTellsTruths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,510
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Monumentally ridiculous. Here we go again:

1. Cars, unlike guns, are not designed to kill
2. Cars, and driver behaviour, are heavily regulated. Back in the 1970s my state of Victoria had over 1000 road deaths. Strict laws against drink driving and speeding were put in place; seat belts mandated; young drivers restricted, and so on. The result? The road toll is around 250. We put heavy restrictions on firearms with positive results.
3. Restricting cars in the way you suggest would cripple the US economy. Restricting guns? Nah.

Basically your reason for choosing freedom over security is the economy?

I specifically stated the ban would be "for recreational purposes".

The number of lives your country could save is absolutely staggering. To defend it with such flawed arguments seems just weird.
__________________
________________________
OnlyTellsTruths is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:38 AM   #93
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Some other planet
Posts: 46,522
Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
Basically your reason for choosing freedom over security is the economy?

I specifically stated the ban would be "for recreational purposes".

The number of lives your country could save is absolutely staggering. To defend it with such flawed arguments seems just weird.
False analogy, reductio ad absurdum and slippery slope all in one concise fail. Well done.
__________________
Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:39 AM   #94
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,351
Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
Basically your reason for choosing freedom over security is the economy?

I specifically stated the ban would be "for recreational purposes".

The number of lives your country could save is absolutely staggering. To defend it with such flawed arguments seems just weird.
Freedom?

You might want to have a look at this set of indices, where Australia is rated higher than the US as far as freedom is concerned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices

Of course, because you put emotion over reason, you will reject this analysis.

And you didn't address my points at all. Because you can't.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:42 AM   #95
OnlyTellsTruths
 
OnlyTellsTruths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,510
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
False analogy, reductio ad absurdum and slippery slope all in one concise fail. Well done.

It's literally like you don't know what any of those fallacies actually require.

No analogy is being made:

Their country could save way more lives by banning recreational use of automobiles than it did by banning guns.

Do you dispute that?

They are clearly choosing freedom over the lives of their citizens.
__________________
________________________
OnlyTellsTruths is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:44 AM   #96
OnlyTellsTruths
 
OnlyTellsTruths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,510
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And you didn't address my points at all. Because you can't.

You mean your excuses for not wanting to save the lives of your countrymen?
__________________
________________________
OnlyTellsTruths is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:45 AM   #97
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,351
Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
It's literally like you don't know what any of those fallacies actually require.

No analogy is being made:

Their country could save way more lives by banning recreational use of automobiles than it did by banning guns.

Do you dispute that?

They are clearly choosing freedom over the lives of their citizens.
Again stubborn resistance to address objective points. Emotion over reason yet again.

By the way, you know the US car death rate is two and a half times that of Australia's? But it's lower than Botswana, so that's okay then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill

Last edited by lionking; 26th December 2012 at 01:49 AM.
lionking is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:49 AM   #98
OnlyTellsTruths
 
OnlyTellsTruths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,510
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
By the way, you know the US car death rate is two and a half times higher than Australia?

That's the last ditch effort of every failed argument.

The old, two wrongs make a right.

Also known as: so-and-so does it too!!
__________________
________________________
OnlyTellsTruths is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:54 AM   #99
brazenlilraisin
...tart
 
brazenlilraisin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 654
Or, as Sonny Corleone said, "Beam me up, Scotty!"
brazenlilraisin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:56 AM   #100
Brian-M
Daydreamer
 
Brian-M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Downunder
Posts: 6,208
Even counting the Monash shooting (I'm counting spree-shootings rather than massacres), that's one spree shooting in a 16 year period compared to six spree shootings in the preceding sixteen years. So gun control does appear to reduce the incidents.

But then again, there were only two spree shootings in the sixteen year period before that, and the only spree shooting on record before those was way back in 1911, so it's not exactly a clear-cut result.

Gun laws might have caused a significant drop in spree shootings, but it's vaguely possible for it to have been a coincidence that six shooting sprees occurred in such a small time-span (1980 to 1996), in which case the new gun laws haven't had a major impact on spree-shootings. Can't be completely certain with the information available.

(And firearms aren't banned here, just a lot more difficult to legally own.)

Originally Posted by Normal Dude View Post
Meanwhile over ten thousand people each year (last I checked) die in the US due to alcohol-related accidents. Alcohol, a substance which is used for recreational purposes by the average person (the small amounts in medicine excepted), is a major factor in many deaths, and I'd bet the deaths of far more children than firearms are. I don't know the figures for the UK and Australia, but somehow I doubt it is an unsignificant number.
To be fair, the US did ban alcohol once. But the ban cause more problems than it solved.
__________________
"That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim
Brian-M is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:56 AM   #101
Sam.I.Am
Illuminator
 
Sam.I.Am's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hunting Moose and Squirrel
Posts: 4,566
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
*shrug* Well, you can go against the rest of the freaking world on this one. Don't want to sign up to the UN Universal Declaration on Human Rights? Fine. Join Saudi Arabia. Even Iran and Pakistan recognise this document.

"Everything not included shall be deemed included." It basically means you can make it up as you go along. Don't have the right to sacrifice children? Here you go! The Ninth Amendment says that you do. Okay, that was a bit of an extreme example, but I hope you get my point.
Iran and Pakistan ignore the document is what you probably meant to say, and pointing out that you stand with the likes of them is not helping you when you point out that we have decided to not sign a toothless document that delineates "Rights" like a paid holiday.

The ninth reaffirms the concept that the power of the government stems from the governed. Not the other way around. It doesn't say that crimes as defined by law are rights (and murder is and always has been a crime). So no, you cannot just "Make it up as you go along". Sometimes people get creative or technology changes the equation however, when that happens, we *GASP* write new laws to close the hole(s).
__________________
"Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"...

About my avatar.
Sam.I.Am is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:56 AM   #102
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,351
Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
That's the last ditch effort of every failed argument.

The old, two wrongs make a right.

Also known as: so-and-so does it too!!
I'm sure you realise how ironic this post is. You're the one who brought in the "so-and-so does it too"-like argument about cars.

Anyway, I'm absolutely appalled about the US car death rate, higher than everywhere in Europe, and will start a thread to see what the US can learn from the rest of the civilised world. As there's no amendment specifically about driving, I hope there can be a rational debate.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:57 AM   #103
OnlyTellsTruths
 
OnlyTellsTruths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,510
Originally Posted by brazenlilraisin View Post
Or, as Sonny Corleone said, "Beam me up, Scotty!"

Wow. You're seriously going to reference the thread with some of the most grievous errors in logic and reading comprehension that I have ever seen on this entire forum?
__________________
________________________
OnlyTellsTruths is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:59 AM   #104
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,351
Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
Even counting the Monash shooting (I'm counting spree-shootings rather than massacres), that's one spree shooting in a 16 year period compared to six spree shootings in the preceding sixteen years. So gun control does appear to reduce the incidents.

But then again, there were only two spree shootings in the sixteen year period before that, and the only spree shooting on record before those was way back in 1911, so it's not exactly a clear-cut result.

Gun laws might have caused a significant drop in spree shootings, but it's vaguely possible for it to have been a coincidence that six shooting sprees occurred in such a small time-span (1980 to 1996), in which case the new gun laws haven't had a major impact on spree-shootings. Can't be completely certain with the information available.

(And firearms aren't banned here, just a lot more difficult to legally own.)



To be fair, the US did ban alcohol once. But the ban cause more problems than it solved.
It's not just the spree killings which have reduced since 1996, it's also total murders and percentage of murders by gun. I posted links a bit earlier.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 01:59 AM   #105
brazenlilraisin
...tart
 
brazenlilraisin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 654
Quote:
You're seriously going to reference the thread with some of the most grievous errors in logic and reading comprehension that I have ever seen on this entire forum?

Yes, and I'll bet you wish you could edit them.
brazenlilraisin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 02:00 AM   #106
OnlyTellsTruths
 
OnlyTellsTruths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,510
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I'm sure you realise how ironic this post is. You're the one who brought in the "so-and-so does it too"-like argument about cars.

That doesn't even make any sense. Using that logic you could explain away every gun-control thread by saying that guns are also legal in other countries.

The simple fact of the matter is that you don't want to actually admit that you need to ban automobiles for recreational purposes in your country. Though you are getting a bit closer to it it seems.
__________________
________________________
OnlyTellsTruths is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 02:03 AM   #107
OnlyTellsTruths
 
OnlyTellsTruths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,510
Originally Posted by brazenlilraisin View Post
Yes, and I'll bet you wish you could edit them.
If you think they were in my posts then you might want to read that thread again. It is very ironic that you bring up that thread and make the exact same mistakes in accusing me of being the one that missed something.

You seriously thought it would help your case in this thread, but if anyone actually goes and reads that thread they will find that you are sorely mistaken.

You brought it up, so if you still feel like it is relevant, please link it.
__________________
________________________
OnlyTellsTruths is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 02:10 AM   #108
Brian-M
Daydreamer
 
Brian-M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Downunder
Posts: 6,208
Originally Posted by HotRodDeluxe View Post
I don't recall anyone going crazy and driving a Holden into a classroom full of children.

It has been done... http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ool-crash.html

Three students in critical condition, five others injured. Don't know if it was a Holden, though.
__________________
"That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim
Brian-M is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 02:13 AM   #109
Information Analyst
Master Poster
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK
Posts: 2,476
Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
That doesn't even make any sense. Using that logic you could explain away every gun-control thread by saying that guns are also legal in other countries.

The simple fact of the matter is that you don't want to actually admit that you need to ban automobiles for recreational purposes in your country. Though you are getting a bit closer to it it seems.
Well, they're clearly doing much better on both than the United States.

Still, who wants to learn by the example of others, eh?

Last edited by Information Analyst; 26th December 2012 at 02:16 AM.
Information Analyst is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 06:29 AM   #110
sgtbaker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,094
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
It's not just the spree killings which have reduced since 1996, it's also total murders and percentage of murders by gun. I posted links a bit earlier.

Violent crime and murder, in the US has been on a decline since the early 90's.
sgtbaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 06:39 AM   #111
Monketey Ghost
Body of Work
 
Monketey Ghost's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: I'm on your screen!
Posts: 18,656
Originally Posted by DC View Post
i start to understand where the problem is with the US and their gun nutters. sick, just sick.
I'll assume that was a joke?
__________________
remembering pillory

SSKCAS, member in long standing

If you accidentally ingest Monketey Ghost, induce vomiting and call your physician immediately.
Monketey Ghost is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 07:06 AM   #112
BStrong
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: California
Posts: 5,893
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Monumentally ridiculous. Here we go again:

1. Cars, unlike guns, are not designed to kill
2. Cars, and driver behaviour, are heavily regulated. Back in the 1970s my state of Victoria had over 1000 road deaths. Strict laws against drink driving and speeding were put in place; seat belts mandated; young drivers restricted, and so on. The result? The road toll is around 250. We put heavy restrictions on firearms with positive results.
3. Restricting cars in the way you suggest would cripple the US economy. Restricting guns? Nah.
With the major exceptions being you aren't required to seek permission of the state to purchase, own and possess a vehicle, there are no restrictions on the type of vehicle purchased, no minimum age limit, no test to determine fitness to own a vehicle, and as long as the vehicle is never used on the public streets, no requirment for license and insurance.
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 07:56 AM   #113
BStrong
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: California
Posts: 5,893
Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
Awesome! Adopt me? Lol!!

(what's the cost per round?)
Sorry, no room at the inn.

I've got both the original /06 as it came back, and the 7.62 conversion parts, so if I warm it up I use whatever is more pleniful at the time.

Back in the 1980's, the old Paragon Sales Co. used to have /06 on Browning links, standard 1 in 5 tracer, under $200.00 per 1K shipped, in quantity.
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 07:59 AM   #114
Noztradamus
Master Poster
 
Noztradamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,190
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Again stubborn resistance to address objective points. Emotion over reason yet again.

By the way, you know the US car death rate is two and a half times that of Australia's? But it's lower than Botswana, so that's okay then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate
Only two and a half times by population. By deaths/vehicle it's 2 times. By deaths/vehicle-kilometre it's 1.5 times.

That discrepency means one thing. Australians drive their vehicles more than Americans do. Australian car use is therefore excessive and needs to be restricted.
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.
Noztradamus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 08:37 AM   #115
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 32,639
If it makes everyone feel better, none of the people in the photo died from being shot. The guy drowned in a flood, the kid fell off a cliff, and Santa took himself out with eighty Vicodin and three bottles of Jack Daniels. Neither guns nor automobiles involved at all, so everyone can be happy.
__________________
One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 09:22 AM   #116
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 11,957
Quote:
~snip~ with multiple high cap mags will have been sold thanks to this situation.And I am pretty sure the actual number is in the thousands if any stats I have been hearing are close to correct. My advantage is I don't want one based on the AR15/M-16...
Being purchased by very paranoid people, thinking like clockwork that the government is going to take away their precious little guns (man cards!). Despite the evidence to the contrary. These are the flippin people who are stocking up to arm themselves against the ever-imminent threat of government takeover.

As if an extra 30 round clip or rifle will do a damn thing to stop it, in the absurdly unlikely event it actually happens.
__________________
Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake.

-Henry David Thoreau
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 09:24 AM   #117
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 11,957
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So only adults should learn how to shoot firearms?

Ranb
LOL...

uh - yea.
__________________
Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake.

-Henry David Thoreau
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 09:26 AM   #118
Captain_Swoop
Philosopher
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 5,122
WHy would you want to tech kids that guns are cool and they shouls leanr to use one as soon as possible?

It seems to me that the ability to use a gun is seem as some essential to being a 'Man'.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 09:26 AM   #119
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 11,957
Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Not possible. Guns are made STRICTLY for killing. Didn't you hear?
Some were. Like the one in your avatar.
__________________
Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake.

-Henry David Thoreau
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2012, 09:31 AM   #120
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 11,957
Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
Basically your reason for choosing freedom over security is the economy?

I specifically stated the ban would be "for recreational purposes".

The number of lives your country could save is absolutely staggering. To defend it with such flawed arguments seems just weird.
I'm sorry, but using the term "flawed argument" against someone while you're comparing auto's to guns is a bit...

flawed.
__________________
Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake.

-Henry David Thoreau
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

JREF Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:02 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001-2013, James Randi Educational Foundation. All Rights Reserved.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.