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Old 27th December 2012, 11:06 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
If all that target shooters wanted to do is improve their skill at target shooting and maybe enter competitions to do the same then why not use an air weapon with a low power?

They are just as accurate and none lethal in most cases (caveat to say that yes, I know that it is possible to make an air weapon with a very high power and in freak circumstances people have been killed with low power weapons.)
That's excatly what I mostly used. My mother, who was a better shot than me used a .22 target rifle to shoot at greater ranges. More serious target shooters used higher calibres for additional range. Higher ranges require greater degrees of skill.
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Old 27th December 2012, 11:06 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken
Learning about guns would be like sex education.
Are you suggesting that everyone should learn about guns, then? Do you favor learning about guns at school, or is it something that should be done at home by the parents?
But there'd be this campaign for "Abstinence only"
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Old 27th December 2012, 11:16 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
And I don't feel that a justification is necessary...
This is where we disagree, to a point I simply cannot understand. The device used to kill 20 children at Sandy Hook must have a justification for its continued existence. If there is none -- if this device designed solely to rip human flesh contributes nothing else of any practical value -- then by definition there is simply no rational reason to oppose its removal from society, other than sheer selfishness.
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Old 27th December 2012, 11:29 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
This is where we disagree, to a point I simply cannot understand. The device used to kill 20 children at Sandy Hook must have a justification for its continued existence. If there is none -- if this device designed solely to rip human flesh contributes nothing else of any practical value -- then by definition there is simply no rational reason to oppose its removal from society, other than sheer selfishness.
They are used by some sportsmen for "varminting", as in the shooting of small animals such as prairie dogs. It's not a practice I partake in myself, animal lover as I am, but I wouldn't begrudge them that.

The hobbyist angle is a practical reason. "Selfishness" of course is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think it's selfish at all to expect to be left alone when not harming anybody - especially when a device designed to "rip human flesh" is used by the vast majority of its owners to do nothing of the sort.
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Old 27th December 2012, 12:16 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
They are used by some sportsmen for "varminting", as in the shooting of small animals such as prairie dogs. It's not a practice I partake in myself, animal lover as I am, but I wouldn't begrudge them that.
I can't even imagine why anyone would do this. Do some people actually consider this hunting? Or is it more just a form of target practice, using biological targets? Killing small animals for no reason at all just seems senseless and stupid, and if that's being offered as a "practical" use of these weapons then I hardly even know how to respond.


Quote:
The hobbyist angle is a practical reason. "Selfishness" of course is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think it's selfish at all to expect to be left alone when not harming anybody - especially when a device designed to "rip human flesh" is used by the vast majority of its owners to do nothing of the sort.
I obviously cannot agree with this. For instance, I doubt my neighbors would be thrilled if I were cultivating anthrax in my basement laboratory. I could justify this as my hobby, and insist I should be left alone since I don't have any intent of ever harming anybody with it; I'm just doing it for fun. None of that would likely be any deterrent to the swift and certain end of my anthrax-related activities. And yet, assault weapons of the type shown in the OP present a far bigger danger, in that they are vastly more readily accessible and more easily usable to deadly effect by the general public.

The irrefutable fact remains that the entire raison d'Ítre for these guns is to kill lots of people, and fast. And this remains true no matter how much enjoyment their owners may derive from blasting targets and/or "varmints" to bits. Really, this is something people actually enjoy doing for some reason -- and so badly it justifies in their mind the occasional Sandy Hook? I guess it must be so, although I personally cannot even begin to understand it.
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Old 27th December 2012, 12:20 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
The irrefutable fact remains that the entire raison d'Ítre for these guns is to kill lots of people, and fast.

As long as you're not willing to consider the issue honestly, your opinion is of no value.
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Old 27th December 2012, 12:30 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
This is where we disagree, to a point I simply cannot understand. The device used to kill 20 children at Sandy Hook must have a justification for its continued existence. If there is none -- if this device designed solely to rip human flesh contributes nothing else of any practical value -- then by definition there is simply no rational reason to oppose its removal from society, other than sheer selfishness.
Shall we get rid of alcohol too? Alcohol is used strictly for pleasure, and serves no other purpose then to get people drunk, the effects of which make people drive intoxicated and commit a plethora of crimes. Not to mention alcohol related deaths outnumber gun deaths by thousands.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 27th December 2012, 12:30 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
As long as you're not willing to consider the issue honestly, your opinion is of no value.
My opinion would indeed be of no value if the preceding statement were true, but it is not. I am in fact approaching this issue both honestly and rationally. Of course, there's always the possibility I could be mistaken about some of my points, such as the one in the quote you've cited. In which case perhaps you can enlighten me: for what purpose were the guns displayed in OP designed, if not for killing lots of humans quickly?
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Old 27th December 2012, 12:35 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
My opinion would indeed be of no value if the preceding statement were true, but it is not. I am in fact approaching this issue both honestly and rationally. Of course, there's always the possibility I could be mistaken about some of my points, such as the one in the quote you've cited. In which case perhaps you can enlighten me: for what purpose were the guns displayed in OP designed, if not for killing lots of humans quickly?

So you haven't been reading these gun threads. Okay. Why don't you take a little time to peruse a few and come back when you've had a chance to become at least moderately informed.
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Old 27th December 2012, 12:37 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Shall we get rid of alcohol too? Alcohol is used strictly for pleasure, and serves no other purpose then to get people drunk, the effects of which make people drive intoxicated and commit a plethora of crimes. Not to mention alcohol related deaths outnumber gun deaths by thousands.
This is definitely true, although some may cite some health benefits of certain moderate consumption of alcoholic beverages such as wine. But I'd be more inclined to your line of reasoning if someone could take a bottle of alcohol and within five minutes kill 20 schoolchildren and six adults with it, or cause instant alcohol poisoning in firemen responding to a fire, none of whom consumed a single drop themselves.

And really, how much mileage can be gotten out of endless "two wrongs make a right" arguments?
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Old 27th December 2012, 12:39 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
So you haven't been reading these gun threads. Okay. Why don't you take a little time to peruse a few and come back when you've had a chance to become at least moderately informed.
Evasion noted (if not entirely unexpected, given the general course discussions on these topics generally take). Interesting that my question concerning the guns displayed in this thread's own OP is responded to with a suggestion that I go read some other threads. Usually this is considered OT, but whatever.
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Old 27th December 2012, 12:45 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Shall we get rid of alcohol too? Alcohol is used strictly for pleasure, and serves no other purpose then to get people drunk, the effects of which make people drive intoxicated and commit a plethora of crimes. Not to mention alcohol related deaths outnumber gun deaths by thousands.
Wow. Still using this tired reply, even after you've been shown the error.

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Old 27th December 2012, 12:47 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Elypsis44 View Post
Wow. Still using this tired reply, even after you've been shown the error.

Wow, LashL handled that one so much better than I did! I should have just linked to her post and saved myself the bother (although truth to tell, I did have a bit of fun with my reply -- and let's face it, it wasn't exactly heavy lifting).
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Old 27th December 2012, 12:52 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Evasion noted (if not entirely unexpected, given the general course discussions on these topics generally take).

Do you expect anyone to engage you seriously when your concern stems, at least in part, from a figment of your imagination?

Quote:
Interesting that my question concerning the guns displayed in this thread's own OP [...]

Do you know they're not movie props?

Quote:
[...] is responded to with a suggestion that I go read some other threads.

The objective is to help you figure out the answer to your question. Want someone to hold your hand?

Quote:
Usually this is considered OT, but whatever.

When it's clear you're missing some of the information required to discuss the issue rationally, pointing you to material that would help bring you up to speed is pretty much the way it works here. You seem reluctant to become better informed, but whatever.

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Old 27th December 2012, 01:03 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Alcohol is used strictly for pleasure, and serves no other purpose then to get people drunk, the effects of which make people drive intoxicated and commit a plethora of crimes.
Haha... what?
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:07 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
The objective is to help you figure out the answer to your question. Want someone to hold your hand?
Yes, hold our hands. Answer the question. That way, your condescending replies will be proven to have merit as opposed to being transparent and feeble dodges.

Here it is again, for your convenience:
Quote:
For what purpose were the guns displayed in OP designed, if not for killing lots of humans quickly?
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:10 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Wow, LashL handled that one so much better than I did! I should have just linked to her post and saved myself the bother (although truth to tell, I did have a bit of fun with my reply -- and let's face it, it wasn't exactly heavy lifting).
Evasion noted. And as was explained, the endstate is still the same regardless of the design intent, with both intents technically not being of use to society. Lots of people dead, except in the case of alcohol there are many many more dead. Alcohol is strictly designed for pleasure, and is only put into drinks to make people drunk, which in turn leads to thousands killed. Why do you not have a problem with alcohol? Children are killed by alcohol as well.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:12 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Haha... what?
Reading comprehension issue? My 6 year old has the same problem. Generally I just read out loud to him very slowly on the parts in books he does not understand. Try reading out loud slowly and it may help. Good luck.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:12 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Elypsis44 View Post
Wow. Still using this tired reply, even after you've been shown the error.

Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Wow, LashL handled that one so much better than I did! I should have just linked to her post and saved myself the bother (although truth to tell, I did have a bit of fun with my reply -- and let's face it, it wasn't exactly heavy lifting).
With respect to LashL, I disagree with that assessment. Guns are weapons. Alcohol is not normally. So?

This to me is a hand wave. The damage alcohol causes is hand waved because it isn't designed to cause it. Yet it does cause it. And it doesn't have justification for existence either. To say guns are different because they're weapons is irrelevant.
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:12 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
I can't even imagine why anyone would do this. Do some people actually consider this hunting? Or is it more just a form of target practice, using biological targets? Killing small animals for no reason at all just seems senseless and stupid, and if that's being offered as a "practical" use of these weapons then I hardly even know how to respond.
How about pest control? Since this country stupidly eradicated apex predators less than 100 years ago to the point that prey animal populations exploded, measures have to be taken. As I said, I don't personally do it, and I would like to see these animals controlled by their natural predators, but unless a decent ecological balance is restored I don't see a way around it.


Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
I obviously cannot agree with this. For instance, I doubt my neighbors would be thrilled if I were cultivating anthrax in my basement laboratory. I could justify this as my hobby, and insist I should be left alone since I don't have any intent of ever harming anybody with it; I'm just doing it for fun. None of that would likely be any deterrent to the swift and certain end of my anthrax-related activities. And yet, assault weapons of the type shown in the OP present a far bigger danger, in that they are vastly more readily accessible and more easily usable to deadly effect by the general public.

The irrefutable fact remains that the entire raison d'Ítre for these guns is to kill lots of people, and fast. And this remains true no matter how much enjoyment their owners may derive from blasting targets and/or "varmints" to bits. Really, this is something people actually enjoy doing for some reason -- and so badly it justifies in their mind the occasional Sandy Hook? I guess it must be so, although I personally cannot even begin to understand it.
Anthrax has no sporting applications. You cannot shoot targets with anthrax. Unlike semi-automatic civilian weapons (both scary and not) there is no purpose other than as a means to cause harm. It's apples and lawn flamingos.

Nobody has said Sandy Hook was justified. What has been said is that people who own military style semi-automatic firearms responsibly vastly outnumber those who don't, and they should not have their rights violated in a knee-jerk reaction to a horrible crime. What has also been said is that others steps should be taken by level-headed people. Reactionary emotionally-based legislation is always bad.

For weapons supposedly designed to kill (again, so were Winchester rifles), they do it remarkably little based on the numbers owned.
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:14 PM   #261
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Evasion? It's a nonsense equivalent, yet again.
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:19 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Evasion noted. And as was explained, the endstate is still the same regardless of the design intent, with both intents technically not being of use to society. Lots of people dead, except in the case of alcohol there are many many more dead. Alcohol is strictly designed for pleasure, and is only put into drinks to make people drunk, which in turn leads to thousands killed. Why do you not have a problem with alcohol? Children are killed by alcohol as well.
Evasion of what? I alsready answered your question. And for the record, I don't personally consume alcohol, and wish people didn't abuse it. So yeah, I have a problem with alcohol. But as I said earlier, how many "two wrongs make a right" arguments are going to get drafted into this discussion?
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:21 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
To say guns are different because they're weapons is irrelevant.
No, that's exactly the point.
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Reactionary emotionally-based legislation is always bad.
For me, the emotional attachment people have to their guns is trumped by the emotions resulting from the death of innocent people.
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
For weapons supposedly designed to kill (again, so were Winchester rifles), they do it remarkably little based on the numbers owned.
How many deaths would be unacceptable?
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:25 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
With respect to LashL, I disagree with that assessment. Guns are weapons. Alcohol is not normally. So?

This to me is a hand wave. The damage alcohol causes is hand waved because it isn't designed to cause it. Yet it does cause it. And it doesn't have justification for existence either. To say guns are different because they're weapons is irrelevant.

Well, how about this: Alcohol is irrelevant to this discussion because we are talking about guns, gun control, etc.?
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:27 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
With respect to LashL, I disagree with that assessment? Guns are weapons. Alcohol is not normally. So?

This to me is a hand wave. The damage alcohol causes is hand waved because it isn't designed to cause it. Yet it does cause it. And it doesn't have justification for existence either. To say guns are different because they're weapons is irrelevant.
Who's hand waving the damage caused by alcohol? It's definitely a major societal problem. But I think using alcohol to justify the availability of assault weapons to the general public is an exceedingly weak argument at best, for reasons I articulated in my reply.
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:27 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Yes, hold our hands. Answer the question. That way, your condescending replies will be proven to have merit as opposed to being transparent and feeble dodges.

That's all they've got once they run out of the NRA-approved talking points.
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:31 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
For me, the emotional attachment people have to their guns is trumped by the emotions resulting from the death of innocent people.
Good for you. This in no way justifies reactionary legislation that infringes on the rights of people who have committed no crimes.

Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
How many deaths would be unacceptable?
Have you stopped beating your wife?
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:32 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Reading comprehension issue? My 6 year old has the same problem. Generally I just read out loud to him very slowly on the parts in books he does not understand. Try reading out loud slowly and it may help. Good luck.
I did, thanks. It's still just as funny and stupid as the first time.

Are you sure that in addition to causing people to drive intoxicated and commit crimes, alcohol doesn't also make people sprout horns and a third eye? Maybe alcohol also makes people spontaneously travel through time. I mean, if you're going to say something nonsensical, you might as well really go for it.
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:34 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
No, that's exactly the point.
Why?

Originally Posted by Elypsis44 View Post
Well, how about this: Alcohol is irrelevant to this discussion because we are talking about guns, gun control, etc.?
Except it's an excellent example of why we don't just ban things because they can't prove their worth to some people. It's also a historic example of the problems of prohibition of something that lots of people want and can easily produce. Those issues are very relevant, although if you don't want to discuss them that's your choice.

Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Who's hand waving the damage caused by alcohol? It's definitely a major societal problem. But I think using alcohol to justify the availability of assault weapons to the general public is an exceedingly weak argument at best, for reasons I articulated in my reply.
It might appear to be a tu quoque, but see above. It's a good example of why many of the objections to guns, which also apply to alcohol, aren't especially persuasive to many people.

And while I don't see the context of the linked quote, I made it explicit that I was referring to LashL's linked quote.
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:35 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Who's hand waving the damage caused by alcohol? It's definitely a major societal problem. But I think using alcohol to justify the availability of assault weapons to the general public is an exceedingly weak argument at best, for reasons I articulated in my reply.
Assault weapons are already illegal without jumping through major bells and whistles. This has been covered. Just because anti-gun fanatics like Feinstein and a legislature that classifies ketchup as a vegetable try to change the definition doesn't alter facts.
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:36 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Good for you. This in no way justifies reactionary legislation that infringes on the rights of people who have committed no crimes.
Thanks, I feel choosing life over target shooting is a positive attribute.


Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Have you stopped beating your wife?
You said the number killed was small. Why did you say that? What significance does the number of deaths have?
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:36 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Evasion noted. And as was explained, the endstate is still the same regardless of the design intent, with both intents technically not being of use to society. Lots of people dead, except in the case of alcohol there are many many more dead. Alcohol is strictly designed for pleasure, and is only put into drinks to make people drunk, which in turn leads to thousands killed. Why do you not have a problem with alcohol? Children are killed by alcohol as well.
Uh...

You can regulate how much you drink and not get drunk. You can't regulate how much lead you put in a person. One usually does the trick.
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:37 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Uh...

You can regulate how much you drink and not get drunk. You can't regulate how much lead you put in a person. One usually does the trick.
None. You can choose to put none in a person.
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:37 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Why?
If you can't understand why a society would treat a weapon differently, then there is no use wasting my time.
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:37 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Who's hand waving the damage caused by alcohol? It's definitely a major societal problem. But I think using alcohol to justify the availability of assault weapons to the general public is an exceedingly weak argument at best, for reasons I articulated in my reply.
Alcohol is regulated.
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:41 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
None. You can choose to put none in a person.
Yea, there's that.

I think you get the point though. I can have A beer if I'd like.
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:43 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
You said the number killed was small. Why did you say that? What significance does the number of deaths have?
Because the argument raised was that the purpose of these weapons is to kill, and yet that is the least likely thing to be done with them by people who own them.
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:44 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Alcohol is regulated.
Is anybody here arguing against regulation of military-style weaponry? It's outright bans that are raising the opposition for the most part.
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:46 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Yea, there's that.

I think you get the point though. I can have A beer if I'd like.
At this point, I could use more than one.
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Old 27th December 2012, 01:46 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Evasion of what? I alsready answered your question. And for the record, I don't personally consume alcohol, and wish people didn't abuse it. So yeah, I have a problem with alcohol. But as I said earlier, how many "two wrongs make a right" arguments are going to get drafted into this discussion?
You are still dodging, as you know the point I am making. You are advocating that certain weapons be banned, which don't cause deaths at any where near the level alcohol does. So, why do you advocate banning or severely restricting firearms when there is a substance that causes many, many more times the destruction? Would you advocate banning alcohol as well?
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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