LDS

[Janadele]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam, and to our pre mortal existence.

[Loss Leader]

I am a Latter Day Saint.
I help all those I can.
I see my friends through time of joy and sorrow.
What happens when we're dead?
We shouldn't think that far ahead.
The only latter day that matters is tomorrow.

[hud]

What does "restored" mean, as in the

Quote:

restored Church of Jesus Christ

?

[Crossbow]

Originally Posted by Janadele

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam, and to our pre mortal existence.

I think that I recall someone by the name of Joseph Smith said something similar after reading gold plates that were placed in the bottom of a hat. The gold plates were delivered by an angel who also provided stones that Smtih placed over his eyes so that he could read the plates in the darkness of the hat.

While I am sure that such stories make perfect sense to some people, however other people (such as myself and quite a few others here at JREF) prefer our non-fiction to be based on slightly more credible grounds.

Thanks.

[Dinwar]

Originally Posted by Janadele

but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ,

I hate to break it to you, but every denomination of Christianity has said that with the exception fo the Roman Catholic Church (which argues that it's the original, therefore the best). No Christian denomination has ever broken from the Church arguing that it's moving FURTHER from Christ's teachings. They ALL said that they were either going back to the originals, or were at least going closer to them than modern theology allowed (whenever "modern" was for that sect).

Quote:

with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam

When was that, exactly? We can trace the Bibles origins via archaeological evidence, and I somehow doubt that where it ends up is where you think it should. And the concept of a single pair of humans starting the species is, from a scientific perspective, nonsensical. We know there was at least one bottleneck, but there was never a time when there were only two humans. The term "Mitochondrial Eve" is, in my opinion, a misnomer--it doesn't mean that she was the only woman in the tribe, merely that she was the last common female ancestor to all living humans. SOMEONE is ALWAYS the last common female ancestor to all members of ANY sexually reproducing species, and frankly it's mostly statistical trickery to generate funding due to increased publicity.

[godless dave]

Originally Posted by Janadele

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam, and to our pre mortal existence.

Did you really think anyone here hadn't heard of the LDS church before?

[halleyscomet]

Originally Posted by Janadele

Yes Halley, it is official LDS teaching.

Being celibate does not mean being alone. Many who choose celibacy live happy worthwhile admirable lives, and will progress in the eternities according to their choices... as will we all.

Link please. I want a citation. I'm finding it hard to believe that even the LDS church would condemn a person with a vagina and undescended testes to a lifetime of celibacy just because reality doesn't conform to their binary image of sexuality.

Anecdotes on the web contradict your assertion Janadele, but then I don't put much stock in Internet anecdotes.

http://www.cougarguard.com/forum/arc...p/t-10071.html

http://www.lds.net/forums/general-di...ansgender.html

Whatever "official" doctrine is, the actual practice appears to be far more liberal than you seem to think.

(Cross posted from Mormon women plan 'Wear Pants to Church Day’)

[jasonpatterson]

Originally Posted by Dinwar

I hate to break it to you, but every denomination of Christianity has said that with the exception fo the Roman Catholic Church (which argues that it's the original, therefore the best). No Christian denomination has ever broken from the Church arguing that it's moving FURTHER from Christ's teachings. They ALL said that they were either going back to the originals, or were at least going closer to them than modern theology allowed (whenever "modern" was for that sect).

In all fairness, there are surely some unitarian-universalists who consider themselves christian but who would not make that claim.

[Loss Leader]

Originally Posted by Dinwar

We can trace the Bibles origins via archaeological evidence

Or, in the case of Mormonism, you can trace it via newspaper clippings.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by hud

What does "restored" mean, as in the ?

The Mormon Church believes that the Church established by Jesus had fallen. And that the Protestant Reformation prepared for and ushered in the restoration. A return to a Church that was headed by god and not a man (the Pope). For the first time since the death of the apostles the full gospel had been restored through revelation to Joseph Smith.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by Janadele

"The Father of souls has endowed His children with the divine birthright of free agency; He does not and will not control them by arbitrary force; He impels no man toward sin; He compels none to righteousness.

If I put a gun to your head and tell you that if you don't do what I tell you then I will shoot you, then you still have the freedom of choice. You can choose to die. Mormons can choose to be punished by god.

Sex ISN'T sin.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[halleyscomet]

Originally Posted by jasonpatterson

In all fairness, there are surely some unitarian-universalists who consider themselves christian but who would not make that claim.

Some fundamentalists however take the idea that the Protestants restored Christianity very, very seriously:

The Death Cookie

[jasonpatterson]

Originally Posted by Janadele

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam, and to our pre mortal existence.

Why is there a desire among the LDS to label themselves as christian, specifically? Why not aim for the vastly more reasonable label of a fourth Abrahamic religion?

You've got an entire extra book of revealed truths, a new prophet in Joseph Smith, and some major changes to the mythology and structure of the supernatural aspects of the religion.

Additionally, what is the purpose of this thread? Post and watch the arguing for fun? Misguided, lazy attempt to convert the heathen masses? Seriously, why post a one line definition that is new to nobody and give no commentary nor ask any questions?

[Dinwar]

Originally Posted by jasonpatterson

In all fairness, there are surely some unitarian-universalists who consider themselves christian but who would not make that claim.

Huh. Fair enough--I did not know that.

Originally Posted by Loss Leader

Or, in the case of Mormonism, you can trace it via newspaper clippings.

Not really. You can trace the Book of Mormon that way, but anything else relies on archaeology of the Middle East. Mormonism is, as are all human organizations, in part a product of the culture it was formed in, and that culture included a strong influence from the Bible.

[hud]

Originally Posted by RandFan

The Mormon Church believes that the Church established by Jesus had fallen. And that the Protestant Reformation prepared for and ushered in the restoration. A return to a Church that was headed by god and not a man (the Pope). For the first time since the death of the apostles the full gospel had been restored through revelation to Joseph Smith.

Thanks. I'm not up on my religious terms, especially the LDS.

[Dinwar]

Originally Posted by RandFan

If I put a gun to your head and tell you that if you don't do what I tell you then I will shoot you, then you still have the freedom of choice. You can choose to die.

Only in the most pedantic, twisted, and perverse sense of teh term "choice". By any rational definition, credible threats negate the concept of choice. If you want to argue otherwise, okay, let's take it to the logical extreme: Every woman that's ever had sex while concious did so willingly, by your logic. After all, she could have chosen to kill herself--so she CHOSE to have sex. So rape isnt' real! No, I'm not saying that you're arguing that rape isn't real--I'm posting a necessary result of a consistent application of your logic that's so vile that I can be reasonably certain no one here will defend it. Still, when you see the flaw in my example (and it IS flawed, and I assume you know it), you'll see the flaw in your own statement.

Originally Posted by jasonpatterson

Additionally, what is the purpose of this thread? Post and watch the arguing for fun?

Eh, why not? I'm honestly curious as to how LDS members will answer some of the challanges that will be presented to them. Like I said, most (but not all, it turns out! ) religions that broke from Catholicism, and most if not all of the sects within Catholicism and the various Protestant religions, argue that they are attempting to bring a fallen Church back to Christ. I'd like to see what Mormons think makes their claim any different.

Also, I just remembered something: Christ called the Church his handmaiden. This implies that the Church was always intended to be a separate entity, does it not? It's hard to be a handmaiden with yourself (I for one am going to remain at a mature level, but I think the jokes write themselves here.)

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by Dinwar

Only in the most pedantic, twisted, and perverse sense of teh term "choice". By any rational definition, credible threats negate the concept of choice.

Hang on, I agree with you. If you knew god was going to punish you if you did not do as he says, is it a rational choice to not obey?

[Dinwar]

Originally Posted by RandFan

Hang on, I agree with you.

I'll be honest, I can't open the video just yet. I may have misread your post, and if I did I apologize for it. I kind of thought I might have, which is why I put in the caveats saying I was only picking an extreme example because extreme examples are less likely to be believed.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by Dinwar

I'll be honest, I can't open the video just yet. I may have misread your post, and if I did I apologize for it. I kind of thought I might have, which is why I put in the caveats saying I was only picking an extreme example because extreme examples are less likely to be believed.

To be fair the video isn't relevant to that point. It's to counter the idea that consensual sex outside of a marriage between a man and a woman is per se a sin.

I might not have made the argument as best as I could.

[Dinwar]

Originally Posted by RandFan

I might not have made the argument as best as I could.

It probably would have registered better if we were talking instead of writing. I tend to be bad at catching inflection in written language.

[godless dave]

Originally Posted by RandFan

I might not have made the argument as best as I could.

I understood what you were saying.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by jasonpatterson

Why is there a desire among the LDS to label themselves as christian, specifically? Why not aim for the vastly more reasonable label of a fourth Abrahamic religion?

You've got an entire extra book of revealed truths, a new prophet in Joseph Smith, and some major changes to the mythology and structure of the supernatural aspects of the religion.

Additionally, what is the purpose of this thread? Post and watch the arguing for fun? Misguided, lazy attempt to convert the heathen masses? Seriously, why post a one line definition that is new to nobody and give no commentary nor ask any questions?

As for "why Christian," why not? The designation is free for any taker who wants it. Considering the bloody and unfortunate history of the Mormon pioneers, adding non-Christianity to their list of apostasies would be politically stupid.

As for the purpose of the thread, the LDS church loves missionaries, I gather, and since the posting is free, Janadele is in a no lose situation. Slim as the chances are for anything but argument, she has made an effort, and like a spammer, she need not sweat percentages.

[timhau]

Originally Posted by Janadele

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam, and to our pre mortal existence.

Is that what gives it the hallucinogenic quality?

[halleyscomet]

Originally Posted by RandFan

Hang on, I agree with you. If you knew god was going to punish you if you did not do as he says, is it a rational choice to not obey?

Traditionally, Jews were allowed to eat pork if it was the result of being forced or the alternative was starvation. Modern Jews, even Orthodox ones, will go to the hospital on the Sabbath if necessary to save their lives. Many Christians lied and used deception to protect people during the Holocaust. The Old Testament story of Gideon includes an incident where God himself dictated a plan wherein Gideon tricked an invading army into believing they were being attacked by a larger force, resulting in most the enemy fatalities that day being caused by the invaders trampling each other in their panic.

The Book of Mormon even has stories where the faithful used deception and even murder to further God's ends. For example, in 1 Nephi, the prophet Nephi murders the drunken Laban and disguises himself as the murdered man in order to recover the golden plates.

According to the holy books of just about any Christian variant out there, the laws are mutable, especially when life is in danger or there is a war. While individual jackasses will claim the laws are not somewhat mutable they do so in contradiction of scripture, and usually to enforce some personal goal of control over the congregation.

[brettDbass]

Originally Posted by timhau

Is that what gives it the hallucinogenic quality?

It must be what did for Spok in the 70s:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgHxFNFWlZc

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by halleyscomet

Traditionally, Jews were allowed to eat pork if it was the result of being forced or the alternative was starvation. Modern Jews, even Orthodox ones, will go to the hospital on the Sabbath if necessary to save their lives. Many Christians lied and used deception to protect people during the Holocaust. The Old Testament story of Gideon includes an incident where God himself dictated a plan wherein Gideon tricked an invading army into believing they were being attacked by a larger force, resulting in most the enemy fatalities that day being caused by the invaders trampling each other in their panic.

The Book of Mormon even has stories where the faithful used deception and even murder to further God's ends. For example, in 1 Nephi, the prophet Nephi murders the drunken Laban and disguises himself as the murdered man in order to recover the golden plates.

According to the holy books of just about any Christian variant out there, the laws are mutable, especially when life is in danger or there is a war. While individual jackasses will claim the laws are not somewhat mutable they do so in contradiction of scripture, and usually to enforce some personal goal of control over the congregation.

Thanks. But I'm not sure what this has to do with my post. Could you explain?

[halleyscomet]

Originally Posted by RandFan

Thanks. But I'm not sure what this has to do with my post. Could you explain?

Sorry about that. I was directing my reply more to the overall thread than your explicit post, but I did not clarify that.

The core point I was trying to make is that God gives considerable latitude on what you can and cannot do under duress, meaning the range of things for which you would be punished by God is far narrower that the strict letter of the law would suggest. This means the decision of if one should obey a given law in a given circumstance is not just a question of "Will I be punished?" but one of "Is it moral to break this law at this time?"

Did the Donner party sin by eating the bodies of people who had died of starvation? No. Is it a sin to kill the enemy during a war? No.

To address your specific post:

Originally Posted by RandFan

"If you knew god was going to punish you if you did not do as he says, is it a rational choice to not obey?"

Yes, it is rational to disobey a specific law under the right circumstances.

[Janadele]

Jason, this thread has evolved from another thread in which off topic questions re LDS where being asked. Hence the generality of the title.

Originally Posted by jasonpatterson

... what is the purpose of this thread?

[hud]

Originally Posted by bruto

(snip)

As for the purpose of the thread, the LDS church loves missionaries, I gather, and since the posting is free, Janadele is in a no lose situation. Slim as the chances are for anything but argument, she has made an effort, and like a spammer, she need not sweat percentages.

I was confused as to the OP, but I think this answers it for me. Since he/she didn't stick around for a discussion, even more so.

ETA: Janadele did respond while I was typing this, so I take back the part about not sticking around.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by halleyscomet

Sorry about that. I was directing my reply more to the overall thread than your explicit post, but I did not clarify that.

The core point I was trying to make is that God gives considerable latitude on what you can and cannot do under duress, meaning the range of things for which you would be punished by God is far narrower that the strict letter of the law would suggest. This means the decision of if one should obey a given law in a given circumstance is not just a question of "Will I be punished?" but one of "Is it moral to break this law at this time?"

Did the Donner party sin by eating the bodies of people who had died of starvation? No. Is it a sin to kill the enemy during a war? No.

To address your specific post:

Yes, it is rational to disobey a specific law under the right circumstances.

Granting the premise that there is a god, I concede there can be exceptions but that really is beside the point. Re: Highlighted text. But that's the crux of the problem (again assuming god).

Let's back up. You've gotten way off topic.

Originally Posted by Janadele

"The Father of souls has endowed His children with the divine birthright of free agency; He does not and will not control them by arbitrary force; He impels no man toward sin; He compels none to righteousness.

According to Janadele I'm free to choose to not obey god. However, If I choose to not obey by rejecting the message then I may be punished.

[slyjoe]

Originally Posted by Janadele

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam, and to our pre mortal existence.

Like the Curse of Cain Doctrine? Right...

[halleyscomet]

Originally Posted by Janadele

Jason, this thread has evolved from another thread in which off topic questions re LDS where being asked. Hence the generality of the title.

Not really. The thread was about Mormon gender roles, and was still about Mormon gender roles, but you felt the need to split it off into another thread for some reason.

By the way, did you ever find a source on an official LDS stance on if Hermaphrodites can marry? You still haven't answered that one. I found some anecdotes suggesting the church is fine with it as long as the person "picks" a gender for marriage and church role purposes. I'd still like to know if there are any official church positions on the topic, or if it's just something where individual temples wing it.

[halleyscomet]

Originally Posted by RandFan

According to Janadele I'm free to choose to not obey god. However, If I choose to not obey by rejecting the message then I may be punished.

That's the conundrum of free will. If you make the wrong choice, the supernatural father figure spanks you very badly. On the bright side that spanking is relatively mild in Moron theology. They don't have Hell anymore. You aren't even REALLY cut off from the highest levels of paradise, it just gets really, really hard to progress.

[hud]

Originally Posted by Janadele

Jason, this thread has evolved from another thread in which off topic questions re LDS where being asked. Hence the generality of the title.

Originally Posted by halleyscomet

Not really. The thread was about Mormon gender roles, and was still about Mormon gender roles, but you felt the need to split it off into another thread for some reason.

By the way, did you ever find a source on an official LDS stance on if Hermaphrodites can marry? You still haven't answered that one. I found some anecdotes suggesting the church is fine with it as long as the person "picks" a gender for marriage and church role purposes. I'd still like to know if there are any official church positions on the topic, or if it's just something where individual temples wing it.

So what IS this thread about?

I apologize for blundering in where I'm not wanted, but I'm confused still.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by halleyscomet

That's the conundrum of free will. If you make the wrong choice, the supernatural father figure spanks you very badly. On the bright side that spanking is relatively mild in Moron theology. They don't have Hell anymore. You aren't even REALLY cut off from the highest levels of paradise, it just gets really, really hard to progress.

You are, to a degree, correct but it's not as clear as you might suppose.

Originally Posted by The Miracle of Forgiveness - 243-244

"No progression between kingdoms. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right."

That's just one of many quotes. Others can be found here.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by hud

So what IS this thread about?

I apologize for blundering in where I'm not wanted, but I'm confused still.

Janadele has offered to answer question in this thread. She made it clean in another thread that she would start this one in order to keep the other from going OT. I assume you can ask her anything you like that has to do with Mormonism or you can bring up any Mormon subject you like for purposes of discussion.

[hud]

Originally Posted by RandFan

Janadele has offered to answer question in this thread. She made it clean in another thread that she would start this one in order to keep the other from going OT. I assume you can ask her anything you like that has to do with Mormonism or you can bring up any Mormon subject you like for purposes of discussion.

Ok. I didn't see a "merged" or "split from" title so I didn't know this was a continuation of a previous discussion.

Most of my questions would be about "Under The Banner Of Heaven" and so might not fit this discussion.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by hud

Ok. I didn't see a "merged" or "split from" title so I didn't know this was a continuation of a previous discussion.

Most of my questions would be about "Under The Banner Of Heaven" and so might not fit this discussion.

Ask a question and see. Janadele seems very reasonable and polite.

FYI: The events documented in "Under The Banner Of Heaven" are fascinating and of course sad and tragic. But bear in mind that Mormons tend to draw very distinct lines between them and FLDS. Any attempt at blurring those lines or showing the parallels are rejected utterly.

[hud]

Originally Posted by RandFan

Ask a question and see. Janadele seems very reasonable and polite.

FYI: The events documented in "Under The Banner Of Heaven" are fascinating and of course sad and tragic. But bear in mind that Mormons tend to draw very distinct lines between them and FLDS. Any attempt at blurring those lines or showing the parallels are rejected utterly.

Well I suppose that the "distinct lines" might be part of it. Are you going to answer for her then? Should have been your thread instead of hers, maybe.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by hud

Well I suppose that the "distinct lines" might be part of it. Are you going to answer for her then? Should have been your thread instead of hers, maybe.

Keep in mind that Janadele is a Mormon and I'm an atheist (the church counts me a Mormon as my name is still in their records).

And to be fair, though I follow blogs and news on Mormonism and though I get lots of information from friends and family, I've not been active for years. I'm sure Janadele would prefer to speak for herself. But I'm happy to offer an opinion.

ETA: I stopped attending church almost two decades ago. Wow.