LDS - Page 120

RandFan · 26th February 2013, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by Akuma Tennou

Hmmm. Are you taking into account the church's leaders hypocrisy? I don't know that much about LDS, but from the experience you shared it seems LDS and jehovah's witnesses have a lot in common. While ambulance chasing is not an "official" guideline for their ministry, JWs are reminded quite often that it is indeed a productive shot. The "ensign" magazine looks quite like the LDS equivalent of the JW's "watchtower". The latter clearly gave more emphasis on how the loss of a loved one was a pain than on the joy of getting married or having a baby. Just a slight poke once in a while is enough, and if it's hidden it's even better. In the end, talking to experienced door-to-door proselytisers leaves no doubt as how the ambulance guideline is encroached in their mind without the proselytiser himself noticing it.

Understood. My biggest complaint is that a god would need marketing at all.

RandFan · 26th February 2013, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by SezMe

Not even close. I've learned more from you and Empress than our own beloved ~~Margaret Houlihan and B.J. Hunnicutt~~ Janadele and skyrider44 could put on offer in a million-post thread. So if you don't mind, more questions for both of you.

First by way of background, were you, RandFan, raised through high school in southern California (specific location not important)?

Second, about the preparation, did anyone "fail" (or not complete) the prep class? At MTC, did anybody wash out? Did anyone get caught diddling the local Provo talent (of either gender) or, for that matter, other MTC attendees? What was your impression of your classmates there? First class folks or high school jocks who didn't know what to do.

Did you have any influence at all on where you went? For example, could you beg a post to Switzerland or Martinique? Do you know who really decided? Where did you personally want to go?

The Mickey Mouse connection could have two meanings. It's because Disney Land is in Orange County or it's because it was a plume piece of cake compared to other potential assignments. Or, I suppose, both.

Surely they didn't think a foreign language can be acquired in a month. Which languages did they teach?

Really? How much material did you have to commit to memory?

Empress, you said women could be missionaries if they wanted to. How many actually do? If they do, is that seen as a compliment or that they aren't doing their Mormon duty to start dropping kids? Also, at MTC are the sexes mixed or separate training? I presume in the field there was no mixed gender teams.

What about race and age? Are there many Asians? Blacks? Latinos? Is it only a young person's gig? Do people come to the MTC from around the world?

You also said families finance the whole gig? What about the less well off? Are there scholarships or grants or whatever it is called?

Lastly, thanks to both of you again. Your contributions are one of the few things that keep this whole boondoggle from being consigned to AAH.

I grew up in Utah and attended high school there. Yes, you could ask but you were not guaranteed. I understand a committee makes the decision but I don't know that for a fact. I wanted to stay stateside because I wanted baptisms. I was very happy to get Southern California. The missionaries gave the moniker to the mission simply because of Disneyland. I don't remember how much but it was a lot. At the MTC there was mixed training. I saved from my mission and I sold my prized possession to pay for it. I purchased a 1967 Camaro Super Sport and lovingly restored to prime condition. No bondo I only used led and I block sanded it for days. It was gorgeous and remains one of my biggest regrets. What I couldn't afford my family paid for. The church does supply funds for those who absolutely cannot afford it.

Think about it though, a sales force that pays its own way.

DragonLady · 26th February 2013, 10:34 AM

Quote:

I sold my prized possession to pay for it. I purchased a 1967 Camaro Super Sport and lovingly restored to prime condition.

Ouch.

Akuma Tennou · 26th February 2013, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Understood. My biggest complaint is that a god would need marketing at all.

Uuh, that was a real question

Is there on the LDS church some sort of subliminal message that says "hurry and chase that ambulance!"? I'm not versed in LDS eschatology, so maybe there's not that much emphasis on grim subjects; but as Janadele likes to repeat how we'll all burn in hell…

RandFan · 26th February 2013, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Akuma Tennou

Uuh, that was a real question

Is there on the LDS church some sort of subliminal message that says "hurry and chase that ambulance!"? I'm not versed in LDS eschatology, so maybe there's not that much emphasis on grim subjects; but as Janadele likes to repeat how we'll all burn in hell…

I'm sorry I thought that I had made that clear before. In the MTC and the mission field we were told to meet with members and ask them questions like "do you know of anyone who has lost a loved one recently"?

tsig · 26th February 2013, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

I'm sorry I thought that I had made that clear before. In the MTC and the mission field we were told to meet with members and ask them questions like "do you know of anyone who has lost a loved one recently"?

Well, that sounds like a real ice breaker.

RandFan · 26th February 2013, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

Well, that sounds like a real ice breaker.

It's a bit more involved than that. It was at the end of the meal, during casual conversation it would work like this, "Brother and Sister Jensen, as you know we rely on friendshiping and referrals from members for many of our potential converts. Do you know of anyone who has experienced a life changing event? Someone who just strarted college or just left home to move into a new appartment. Someone who was recently married, or had a baby or someone who is going through a divorce, lost their job or who has lost a loved on.

Something like that. I don't know if they still do it but I can tell you it worked when I was in the field.

Marcus · 26th February 2013, 03:39 PM

My best friends 19 year old daughter has converted to Mormonism, she will be baptized next week. My friend,although still a Believer (Protestant) was raised Mormon , and is very aware of the ways Mormon belief contradicts reality, the false translations, horses and barley in America, JS's colorful con games, the real ancestry of Native Americans, etc.

The interesting thing is, when confronted with facts she easily verify (she's a college student) , her response is "that's just propaganda from anti-mormon sources". Sound familiar? I'm just wondering if this is part of the primary indoctrination.

RandFan, were you hammered with this meme?

abaddon · 26th February 2013, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

I'm sorry I thought that I had made that clear before. In the MTC and the mission field we were told to meet with members and ask them questions like "do you know of anyone who has lost a loved one recently"?

Isn't that just a tad cynical?

bruto · 26th February 2013, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by halleyscomet

I see no reason to trust Janadele to get this detail right. Her sons would not necessarily have a reason to tell her if they received such instruction. Even if she asked them point blank if they DID receive such instruction, there's no guarantee they would even remember it, or have thought enough of it at the time to take note of it.

Janadele's statements about what instruction her sons did or did not receive are hearsay at best, a second hand report.

I am tempted to suggest that she might be willing to deliberately misrepresent what instruction her sons received if she feels the truth casts Mormonism in a negative light. While such speculation is, in my view, a reasonable extrapolation of her previous comments, I see no reason to seriously consider duplicity where less sinister explanations suffice.

TL;DR

I give more weight to the first hand account than to the second hand hearsay.

Indeed, which is why I included that "if, in fact" part.

RandFan · 26th February 2013, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by abaddon

Isn't that just a tad cynical?

See post #4767. I don't know if and or how cynical it is. I don't want to be in the position of defending the Church. At the time it seemed compassionate. I actually met with people who lost loved ones. I met with people in hospitals and I spent the last dying hours with someone who had no family. I spent time with a man who was going to prison and provided him comfort when he was scared. It could be argued either way. I can tell you that I cared deeply for the people I worked with. You decide if it is cynical.

RandFan · 26th February 2013, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Marcus

My best friends 19 year old daughter has converted to Mormonism, she will be baptized next week. My friend,although still a Believer (Protestant) was raised Mormon , and is very aware of the ways Mormon belief contradicts reality, the false translations, horses and barley in America, JS's colorful con games, the real ancestry of Native Americans, etc.

The interesting thing is, when confronted with facts she easily verify (she's a college student) , her response is "that's just propaganda from anti-mormon sources". Sound familiar? I'm just wondering if this is part of the primary indoctrination.

RandFan, were you hammered with this meme?

There is a persecution complex among Mormons. And to be sure there are some malicious people who are anti-Mormon. It's easy to see criticism as unfair persecution. The meme is common IMO.

deaman · 26th February 2013, 06:54 PM

For Mormons and Christians in general, I believe persecution is look upon as an honor, and a validation of one's faith.

The martyr syndrome.

SezMe · 26th February 2013, 08:45 PM

Seems to hold no small sway among modern day Muslims as well. It's probably true for other sects as well, we just don't hear that much about them in the western media.

Pixel42 · 26th February 2013, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by Marcus

The interesting thing is, when confronted with facts she easily verify (she's a college student) , her response is "that's just propaganda from anti-mormon sources". Sound familiar? I'm just wondering if this is part of the primary indoctrination.

I certainly got it all the time from the Mormon I debated on another board. It doesn't matter if the source of the information is an expert (archeologist, geneticist, historian) who never heard of the LDS, if the information contradicts LDS doctrine it's an anti-Mormon source.

The other thing they seem to be taught a standard response to is the question of why previously committed Mormons (complete with burning in the bosom testimony) leave the church. They're told it can only be because of personality clashes with other members etc, not because they eventually managed to work out for themselves that it's all nonsense.

Marcus · 27th February 2013, 04:31 AM

I've seen this behavior among other Christian denominations as well. They have the advantage of relying on the unverifiable nature of events that happened 2,000 years ago though.

The problem LDS has is that they are so new. Smith's antics are recent enough to generate an extra aura of silliness. When you think about it a flying gold tablet or magic hat is probably no worse than a loaves to fishes transformation or a stroll over the water, many of us are just so used to hearing the latter claims that they've become almost ordinary.

Pup · 27th February 2013, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by deaman

For Mormons and Christians in general, I believe persecution is look upon as an honor, and a validation of one's faith.

The martyr syndrome.

There is, of course, explicit praise for martyrs in religion.

But I wonder if there's also some self-selection going on, which distorts the sample of religious people that skeptics interact with.

In other words, Mormons (or any Christians) who are cool with the martyr thing, are the ones who will interact most on the topic of religion with disbelievers. So they're the ones whom disbelievers engage with more often, when the topic is about flaws in religion.

The believers who aren't into martyrdom and dislike being insulted, are more apt to avoid confrontation and retreat to a live-and-let-live interaction on topics other than religion. Therefore, they're less apt to be noticed by skeptics, who wind up spending most of their time arguing with the subset of believers who do enjoy martyrdom.

halleyscomet · 27th February 2013, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

See post #4767. I don't know if and or how cynical it is. I don't want to be in the position of defending the Church. At the time it seemed compassionate. I actually met with people who lost loved ones. I met with people in hospitals and I spent the last dying hours with someone who had no family. I spent time with a man who was going to prison and provided him comfort when he was scared. It could be argued either way. I can tell you that I cared deeply for the people I worked with. You decide if it is cynical.

I think that's one reason Janadele claimed her sons received no such instruction. To the person receiving the instruction it won't necessarily feel like a cynical ploy to exploit the vulnerable, but a means of finding those in the most need. As Obi-Wan Kenobi said "It's all in your point of view." Manipulative actions can be easily depicted in a beneficial light.

deaman · 27th February 2013, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

The other thing they seem to be taught a standard response to is the question of why previously committed Mormons (complete with burning in the bosom testimony) leave the church. They're told it can only be because of personality clashes with other members etc, not because they eventually managed to work out for themselves that it's all nonsense.

It seems more marketable for them if they say the former members, "lost the spirit", rather than, they "saw through the BS" and "figured out it was a con game". But, reality is, they actually believe the con, themselves

In mormonism there is such a thing as Temple Marriage, It is a marriage "for all time and eternity", as opposed to "until death do us part". Imagine my amazment to find that there are many who are married in the temple, yet later divorce just like normal marriages.

Did god get it wrong?

deaman · 27th February 2013, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Pup

There is, of course, explicit praise for martyrs in religion.

But I wonder if there's also some self-selection going on, which distorts the sample of religious people that skeptics interact with.

In other words, Mormons (or any Christians) who are cool with the martyr thing, are the ones who will interact most on the topic of religion with disbelievers. So they're the ones whom disbelievers engage with more often, when the topic is about flaws in religion.

The believers who aren't into martyrdom and dislike being insulted, are more apt to avoid confrontation and retreat to a live-and-let-live interaction on topics other than religion. Therefore, they're less apt to be noticed by skeptics, who wind up spending most of their time arguing with the subset of believers who do enjoy martyrdom.

What I hear you saying is that people who have this kind of martyr syndrome, would have it whether they were religious or not. It has to do with the absence of self-esteem of the person. It is the actions of a person in need of validation.

Pup · 27th February 2013, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by deaman

What I hear you saying is that people who have this kind of martyr syndrome, would have it whether they were religious or not. It has to do with the absence of self-esteem of the person. It is the actions of a person in need of validation.

Yes, that's a good point. And of course the martyr syndrome can appear in lots of places unconnected to religion, from the "99%" who complain about being helplessly exploited by banks and Wall Street, to disgruntled spouses or ex-spouses always complaining about their partners or ex-partners.

And, of course, in those cases too, it's the ones who continually revel in their problems who are most apt to stand out and be noticed, while others just quietly make the best of things, or seek attention long enough to get help with their problems and then move on.

Empress · 27th February 2013, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by deaman

It seems more marketable for them if they say the former members, "lost the spirit", rather than, they "saw through the BS" and "figured out it was a con game". But, reality is, they actually believe the con, themselves

In mormonism there is such a thing as Temple Marriage, It is a marriage "for all time and eternity", as opposed to "until death do us part". Imagine my amazment to find that there are many who are married in the temple, yet later divorce just like normal marriages.

Did god get it wrong?

In my experience, divorce has always been seen as fairly benign in the Mormon culture, so long as it's strictly a civil divorce. It's only a temple divorce that's a problem, and IIRC the temple divorce is a long and time-consuming process. Also, just because you apply for one, doesn't mean that you'll receive one. So many couples just get divorced civilly, and you end up with the odd situation where a man will be married in the temple to both his ex-wife/wives and his current wife.

Of course, a woman cannot be sealed to more than one man, so if she wants to be re-married in the temple, she must be granted a temple divorce before this can happen. Or she can just marry civilly and forget the temple marriage. She'd still be married to her first husband by temple standards.

I believe the rate of divorce among Mormons is roughly equivalent to the non-Mormon population, but the rate of temple divorce is only about 6%.

halleyscomet · 27th February 2013, 10:28 AM

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comm..._boys_stop_me/

Quote:

So I was walking home after work, and two Mormon missionaries asked if they could talk to me about the Book of Mormon.

Me: You don't want to talk to me.

Bike Boy 1: Why not?

Me: (counting off on my fingers)
• Your entire religion is based on the sayings of an illiterate convicted con-artist.

• There is no evidence for the existence of the 'golden plates' except for the word of an illiterate convicted con-artist, who fled west to avoid prosecution.

• Molecular genetic evidence has refuted the Mormon claim that the American Indians were the 'lost tribe of Israel'.

• Many of the dogmas of your religion were created by your illiterate convicted con-man founder for his own personal gain.

• I find the actions of your church and members during the California Prop 8 campaign to be totally reprehensible, not to mention unconstitutional and illegal.

Bike Boy 2 : (muttered under his breath) Oh ****.

Bike Boy 1 : Um...those are...um...well...

Me: Told ya. (starts walking away)

Bike Boy 2 : At least he didn't start screaming at us.

I know, it's not the greatest story, but I enjoyed it.

Craig4 · 27th February 2013, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by halleyscomet

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comm..._boys_stop_me/

Not to take away from you accomplishment, but this happens a few times a day to the missionaries working the Metro stops going into Washington DC. Maybe they shouldn't stake out the same stops used by the archaeologists and historians who work at the Smithsonian.

dudalb · 27th February 2013, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

Not to take away from you accomplishment, but this happens a few times a day to the missionaries working the Metro stops going into Washington DC. Maybe they shouldn't stake out the same stops used by the archaeologists and historians who work at the Smithsonian.

That must be a beautiful thing to see.

dudalb · 27th February 2013, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

I'm sorry I thought that I had made that clear before. In the MTC and the mission field we were told to meet with members and ask them questions like "do you know of anyone who has lost a loved one recently"?

That kind of thinking got the LDS in real trouble a few years ago when they begun baptizing Holocaust Victims without getting the relatives permission.......

halleyscomet · 27th February 2013, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

Not to take away from you accomplishment, but this happens a few times a day to the missionaries working the Metro stops going into Washington DC. Maybe they shouldn't stake out the same stops used by the archaeologists and historians who work at the Smithsonian.

A point of clarification. I did not write the account, I am merely passing it along.

Craig4 · 27th February 2013, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by halleyscomet

A point of clarification. I did not write the account, I am merely passing it along.

It's okay, I'm just remembering a few fun anecdotes. When I posted that I'd been drinking.

halleyscomet · 27th February 2013, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

It's okay, I'm just remembering a few fun anecdotes. When I posted that I'd been drinking.

That reminds me of a joke.

Q: Why should you always take two Mormons when you go fishing?
A: Because if you only take one, he'll drink all your beer.

Craig4 · 27th February 2013, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

That must be a beautiful thing to see.

It has it's moments. Why you'd think it is worthwhile to engage a DC commuter in a deep philosophical discussion is beyond me. We pretty much all think the country will collapse if we don't get to work on time or will KILL anyone who gets in the way of us returning to our homes at a decent hour in the evening. I hope the LDS only send the bravest of the brave to DC to work the Metro stops.

RandFan · 27th February 2013, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by halleyscomet

That reminds me of a joke.

Q: Why should you always take two Mormons when you go fishing?
A: Because if you only take one, he'll drink all your beer.

It's been done in this thread. But it is a great joke.

Craig4 · 27th February 2013, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

It's been done in this thread. But it is a great joke.

We laugh because it's funny and we laugh because it's true.

halleyscomet · 27th February 2013, 01:46 PM

It occurs to me that a "Black Russian" has got to be one of the most evil things in the universe to a Mormon. It has alcohol in the form of a coffee liquor AND the name references a dark skinned person.

SezMe · 27th February 2013, 02:22 PM

Darn good thing its not a "Negro Russian".

RandFan · 27th February 2013, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by SezMe

Darn good thing its not a "Negro Russian".

It would require a church leader to be sure.

Slowvehicle · 27th February 2013, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

It would require a church leader to be sure.

I see what you did there...

deaman · 27th February 2013, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

It would require a church leader to be sure.

LOL!!!

Ok, I keep seeing this reference about the definition of the word "negro", and the Mormon Church.

I understand about the racism inherent in the BoM, and the fact that fair skinned people are supposed to be delightsome, before the lord. But, what gives here? Why would you need a church leader to tell you if someone is a negro?

Thanks in advance.

Empress · 27th February 2013, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by deaman

LOL!!!

Ok, I keep seeing this reference about the definition of the word "negro", and the Mormon Church.

I understand about the racism inherent in the BoM, and the fact that fair skinned people are supposed to be delightsome, before the lord. But, what gives here? Why would you need a church leader to tell you if someone is a negro?

Thanks in advance.

It's a reference to an earlier drift in the thread where Janadele talked about Negros not being able to hold the priesthood in the past, but when asked specifically could not or refused to, explain what "Negro" meant. She claimed it's not skin color, or African heritage. Eventually it seemed to come down to the church leaders could tell 'em when they see 'em.

deaman · 27th February 2013, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Empress

It's a reference to an earlier drift in the thread where Janadele talked about Negros not being able to hold the priesthood in the past, but when asked specifically could not or refused to, explain what "Negro" meant. She claimed it's not skin color, or African heritage. Eventually it seemed to come down to the church leaders could tell 'em when they see 'em.

We all probably know how the word "******" is used today among younger blacks, and other races as well. But, I also know that the term ******, or niggardly discribes someone who is stingy, or miserly.

I don't suppose that's what the mormons mean, though.

EDIT: Hmm, interesting. I guess the JREF finds the N-word offensive.

Empress · 27th February 2013, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by deaman

We all probably know how the word "******" is used today among younger blacks, and other races as well. But, I also know that the term ******, or niggardly is someone who is stingy or miserly.

I don't suppose that's what the mormons mean, though.

Mormons specifically meant black people when they referred to Negros. There were several quotations from different prophets that made it clear beyond all reasonable doubt that from Brigham Young's leadership until the 1970s, black men could not hold the priesthood, and that the "skin of blackness" was a curse from god. But Janadele refused to admit it, no matter how much evidence was posted.

Behold the power of religious denial.

26th February 2013, 09:17 AM	#4761
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,212	Originally Posted by Akuma Tennou Hmmm. Are you taking into account the church's leaders hypocrisy? I don't know that much about LDS, but from the experience you shared it seems LDS and jehovah's witnesses have a lot in common. While ambulance chasing is not an "official" guideline for their ministry, JWs are reminded quite often that it is indeed a productive shot. The "ensign" magazine looks quite like the LDS equivalent of the JW's "watchtower". The latter clearly gave more emphasis on how the loss of a loved one was a pain than on the joy of getting married or having a baby. Just a slight poke once in a while is enough, and if it's hidden it's even better. In the end, talking to experienced door-to-door proselytisers leaves no doubt as how the ambulance guideline is encroached in their mind without the proselytiser himself noticing it. Understood. My biggest complaint is that a god would need marketing at all.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

26th February 2013, 09:23 AM	#4762
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,212	Originally Posted by SezMe Not even close. I've learned more from you and Empress than our own beloved ~~Margaret Houlihan and B.J. Hunnicutt~~ Janadele and skyrider44 could put on offer in a million-post thread. So if you don't mind, more questions for both of you. First by way of background, were you, RandFan, raised through high school in southern California (specific location not important)? Second, about the preparation, did anyone "fail" (or not complete) the prep class? At MTC, did anybody wash out? Did anyone get caught diddling the local Provo talent (of either gender) or, for that matter, other MTC attendees? What was your impression of your classmates there? First class folks or high school jocks who didn't know what to do. Did you have any influence at all on where you went? For example, could you beg a post to Switzerland or Martinique? Do you know who really decided? Where did you personally want to go? The Mickey Mouse connection could have two meanings. It's because Disney Land is in Orange County or it's because it was a plume piece of cake compared to other potential assignments. Or, I suppose, both. Surely they didn't think a foreign language can be acquired in a month. Which languages did they teach? Really? How much material did you have to commit to memory? Empress, you said women could be missionaries if they wanted to. How many actually do? If they do, is that seen as a compliment or that they aren't doing their Mormon duty to start dropping kids? Also, at MTC are the sexes mixed or separate training? I presume in the field there was no mixed gender teams. What about race and age? Are there many Asians? Blacks? Latinos? Is it only a young person's gig? Do people come to the MTC from around the world? You also said families finance the whole gig? What about the less well off? Are there scholarships or grants or whatever it is called? Lastly, thanks to both of you again. Your contributions are one of the few things that keep this whole boondoggle from being consigned to AAH. I grew up in Utah and attended high school there. Yes, you could ask but you were not guaranteed. I understand a committee makes the decision but I don't know that for a fact. I wanted to stay stateside because I wanted baptisms. I was very happy to get Southern California. The missionaries gave the moniker to the mission simply because of Disneyland. I don't remember how much but it was a lot. At the MTC there was mixed training. I saved from my mission and I sold my prized possession to pay for it. I purchased a 1967 Camaro Super Sport and lovingly restored to prime condition. No bondo I only used led and I block sanded it for days. It was gorgeous and remains one of my biggest regrets. What I couldn't afford my family paid for. The church does supply funds for those who absolutely cannot afford it. Think about it though, a sales force that pays its own way.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

26th February 2013, 10:34 AM	#4763
DragonLady Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Under the Starry, Starry Night Posts: 1,832	Quote: I sold my prized possession to pay for it. I purchased a 1967 Camaro Super Sport and lovingly restored to prime condition. Ouch.
	__________________ It's NOT denial. I'm just very selective about the reality I accept. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes) The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One

26th February 2013, 02:04 PM	#4764
Akuma Tennou Thinker Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 213	Originally Posted by RandFan Understood. My biggest complaint is that a god would need marketing at all. Uuh, that was a real question Is there on the LDS church some sort of subliminal message that says "hurry and chase that ambulance!"? I'm not versed in LDS eschatology, so maybe there's not that much emphasis on grim subjects; but as Janadele likes to repeat how we'll all burn in hell…
Akuma Tennou Thinker Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 213	__________________ "Karl Marx was right, socialism works, it is just that he had the wrong species" − E. O. Wilson

26th February 2013, 02:14 PM	#4765
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,212	Originally Posted by Akuma Tennou Uuh, that was a real question Is there on the LDS church some sort of subliminal message that says "hurry and chase that ambulance!"? I'm not versed in LDS eschatology, so maybe there's not that much emphasis on grim subjects; but as Janadele likes to repeat how we'll all burn in hell… I'm sorry I thought that I had made that clear before. In the MTC and the mission field we were told to meet with members and ask them questions like "do you know of anyone who has lost a loved one recently"?
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

26th February 2013, 03:14 PM	#4766
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,762	Originally Posted by RandFan I'm sorry I thought that I had made that clear before. In the MTC and the mission field we were told to meet with members and ask them questions like "do you know of anyone who has lost a loved one recently"? Well, that sounds like a real ice breaker.

26th February 2013, 03:20 PM	#4767
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,212	Originally Posted by tsig Well, that sounds like a real ice breaker. It's a bit more involved than that. It was at the end of the meal, during casual conversation it would work like this, "Brother and Sister Jensen, as you know we rely on friendshiping and referrals from members for many of our potential converts. Do you know of anyone who has experienced a life changing event? Someone who just strarted college or just left home to move into a new appartment. Someone who was recently married, or had a baby or someone who is going through a divorce, lost their job or who has lost a loved on. Something like that. I don't know if they still do it but I can tell you it worked when I was in the field.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

26th February 2013, 03:39 PM	#4768
Marcus Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 1,840	My best friends 19 year old daughter has converted to Mormonism, she will be baptized next week. My friend,although still a Believer (Protestant) was raised Mormon , and is very aware of the ways Mormon belief contradicts reality, the false translations, horses and barley in America, JS's colorful con games, the real ancestry of Native Americans, etc. The interesting thing is, when confronted with facts she easily verify (she's a college student) , her response is "that's just propaganda from anti-mormon sources". Sound familiar? I'm just wondering if this is part of the primary indoctrination. RandFan, were you hammered with this meme?

26th February 2013, 03:58 PM	#4769
abaddon Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,581	Originally Posted by RandFan I'm sorry I thought that I had made that clear before. In the MTC and the mission field we were told to meet with members and ask them questions like "do you know of anyone who has lost a loved one recently"? Isn't that just a tad cynical?
abaddon Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,581	__________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?

26th February 2013, 04:52 PM	#4770
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 11,187	Originally Posted by halleyscomet I see no reason to trust Janadele to get this detail right. Her sons would not necessarily have a reason to tell her if they received such instruction. Even if she asked them point blank if they DID receive such instruction, there's no guarantee they would even remember it, or have thought enough of it at the time to take note of it. Janadele's statements about what instruction her sons did or did not receive are hearsay at best, a second hand report. I am tempted to suggest that she might be willing to deliberately misrepresent what instruction her sons received if she feels the truth casts Mormonism in a negative light. While such speculation is, in my view, a reasonable extrapolation of her previous comments, I see no reason to seriously consider duplicity where less sinister explanations suffice. TL;DR I give more weight to the first hand account than to the second hand hearsay. Indeed, which is why I included that "if, in fact" part.
	__________________ "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding.(Samuel Johnson) The gods are less for their love of praise....(Wendell Berry)

26th February 2013, 05:46 PM	#4771
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,212	Originally Posted by abaddon Isn't that just a tad cynical? See post #4767. I don't know if and or how cynical it is. I don't want to be in the position of defending the Church. At the time it seemed compassionate. I actually met with people who lost loved ones. I met with people in hospitals and I spent the last dying hours with someone who had no family. I spent time with a man who was going to prison and provided him comfort when he was scared. It could be argued either way. I can tell you that I cared deeply for the people I worked with. You decide if it is cynical.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith Last edited by RandFan; 26th February 2013 at 05:48 PM.

26th February 2013, 05:49 PM	#4772
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,212	Originally Posted by Marcus My best friends 19 year old daughter has converted to Mormonism, she will be baptized next week. My friend,although still a Believer (Protestant) was raised Mormon , and is very aware of the ways Mormon belief contradicts reality, the false translations, horses and barley in America, JS's colorful con games, the real ancestry of Native Americans, etc. The interesting thing is, when confronted with facts she easily verify (she's a college student) , her response is "that's just propaganda from anti-mormon sources". Sound familiar? I'm just wondering if this is part of the primary indoctrination. RandFan, were you hammered with this meme? There is a persecution complex among Mormons. And to be sure there are some malicious people who are anti-Mormon. It's easy to see criticism as unfair persecution. The meme is common IMO.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

26th February 2013, 06:54 PM	#4773
deaman Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,729	For Mormons and Christians in general, I believe persecution is look upon as an honor, and a validation of one's faith. The martyr syndrome.
deaman Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,729	Last edited by deaman; 26th February 2013 at 06:55 PM.

26th February 2013, 08:45 PM	#4774
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,369	Seems to hold no small sway among modern day Muslims as well. It's probably true for other sects as well, we just don't hear that much about them in the western media.

26th February 2013, 11:57 PM	#4775
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 4,237	Originally Posted by Marcus The interesting thing is, when confronted with facts she easily verify (she's a college student) , her response is "that's just propaganda from anti-mormon sources". Sound familiar? I'm just wondering if this is part of the primary indoctrination. I certainly got it all the time from the Mormon I debated on another board. It doesn't matter if the source of the information is an expert (archeologist, geneticist, historian) who never heard of the LDS, if the information contradicts LDS doctrine it's an anti-Mormon source. The other thing they seem to be taught a standard response to is the question of why previously committed Mormons (complete with burning in the bosom testimony) leave the church. They're told it can only be because of personality clashes with other members etc, not because they eventually managed to work out for themselves that it's all nonsense.
	__________________ "The correct scientific response to anything that is not understood is always to look harder for the explanation, not give up and assume a supernatural cause". David Attenborough.

27th February 2013, 04:31 AM	#4776
Marcus Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 1,840	I've seen this behavior among other Christian denominations as well. They have the advantage of relying on the unverifiable nature of events that happened 2,000 years ago though. The problem LDS has is that they are so new. Smith's antics are recent enough to generate an extra aura of silliness. When you think about it a flying gold tablet or magic hat is probably no worse than a loaves to fishes transformation or a stroll over the water, many of us are just so used to hearing the latter claims that they've become almost ordinary.

27th February 2013, 06:08 AM	#4777
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,589	Originally Posted by deaman For Mormons and Christians in general, I believe persecution is look upon as an honor, and a validation of one's faith. The martyr syndrome. There is, of course, explicit praise for martyrs in religion. But I wonder if there's also some self-selection going on, which distorts the sample of religious people that skeptics interact with. In other words, Mormons (or any Christians) who are cool with the martyr thing, are the ones who will interact most on the topic of religion with disbelievers. So they're the ones whom disbelievers engage with more often, when the topic is about flaws in religion. The believers who aren't into martyrdom and dislike being insulted, are more apt to avoid confrontation and retreat to a live-and-let-live interaction on topics other than religion. Therefore, they're less apt to be noticed by skeptics, who wind up spending most of their time arguing with the subset of believers who do enjoy martyrdom.
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,589

27th February 2013, 08:28 AM	#4778
halleyscomet Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 410	Originally Posted by RandFan See post #4767. I don't know if and or how cynical it is. I don't want to be in the position of defending the Church. At the time it seemed compassionate. I actually met with people who lost loved ones. I met with people in hospitals and I spent the last dying hours with someone who had no family. I spent time with a man who was going to prison and provided him comfort when he was scared. It could be argued either way. I can tell you that I cared deeply for the people I worked with. You decide if it is cynical. I think that's one reason Janadele claimed her sons received no such instruction. To the person receiving the instruction it won't necessarily feel like a cynical ploy to exploit the vulnerable, but a means of finding those in the most need. As Obi-Wan Kenobi said "It's all in your point of view." Manipulative actions can be easily depicted in a beneficial light.
	Last edited by halleyscomet; 27th February 2013 at 08:30 AM.

27th February 2013, 08:57 AM	#4779
deaman Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,729	Originally Posted by Pixel42 The other thing they seem to be taught a standard response to is the question of why previously committed Mormons (complete with burning in the bosom testimony) leave the church. They're told it can only be because of personality clashes with other members etc, not because they eventually managed to work out for themselves that it's all nonsense. It seems more marketable for them if they say the former members, "lost the spirit", rather than, they "saw through the BS" and "figured out it was a con game". But, reality is, they actually believe the con, themselves In mormonism there is such a thing as Temple Marriage, It is a marriage "for all time and eternity", as opposed to "until death do us part". Imagine my amazment to find that there are many who are married in the temple, yet later divorce just like normal marriages. Did god get it wrong?
deaman Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,729	Last edited by deaman; 27th February 2013 at 09:00 AM.

27th February 2013, 09:02 AM	#4780
deaman Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,729	Originally Posted by Pup There is, of course, explicit praise for martyrs in religion. But I wonder if there's also some self-selection going on, which distorts the sample of religious people that skeptics interact with. In other words, Mormons (or any Christians) who are cool with the martyr thing, are the ones who will interact most on the topic of religion with disbelievers. So they're the ones whom disbelievers engage with more often, when the topic is about flaws in religion. The believers who aren't into martyrdom and dislike being insulted, are more apt to avoid confrontation and retreat to a live-and-let-live interaction on topics other than religion. Therefore, they're less apt to be noticed by skeptics, who wind up spending most of their time arguing with the subset of believers who do enjoy martyrdom. What I hear you saying is that people who have this kind of martyr syndrome, would have it whether they were religious or not. It has to do with the absence of self-esteem of the person. It is the actions of a person in need of validation.
deaman Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,729

27th February 2013, 09:22 AM	#4781
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,589	Originally Posted by deaman What I hear you saying is that people who have this kind of martyr syndrome, would have it whether they were religious or not. It has to do with the absence of self-esteem of the person. It is the actions of a person in need of validation. Yes, that's a good point. And of course the martyr syndrome can appear in lots of places unconnected to religion, from the "99%" who complain about being helplessly exploited by banks and Wall Street, to disgruntled spouses or ex-spouses always complaining about their partners or ex-partners. And, of course, in those cases too, it's the ones who continually revel in their problems who are most apt to stand out and be noticed, while others just quietly make the best of things, or seek attention long enough to get help with their problems and then move on.
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,589

27th February 2013, 09:25 AM	#4782
Empress Abandoned All Hope Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Blandings Castle Posts: 1,546	Originally Posted by deaman It seems more marketable for them if they say the former members, "lost the spirit", rather than, they "saw through the BS" and "figured out it was a con game". But, reality is, they actually believe the con, themselves In mormonism there is such a thing as Temple Marriage, It is a marriage "for all time and eternity", as opposed to "until death do us part". Imagine my amazment to find that there are many who are married in the temple, yet later divorce just like normal marriages. Did god get it wrong? In my experience, divorce has always been seen as fairly benign in the Mormon culture, so long as it's strictly a civil divorce. It's only a temple divorce that's a problem, and IIRC the temple divorce is a long and time-consuming process. Also, just because you apply for one, doesn't mean that you'll receive one. So many couples just get divorced civilly, and you end up with the odd situation where a man will be married in the temple to both his ex-wife/wives and his current wife. Of course, a woman cannot be sealed to more than one man, so if she wants to be re-married in the temple, she must be granted a temple divorce before this can happen. Or she can just marry civilly and forget the temple marriage. She'd still be married to her first husband by temple standards. I believe the rate of divorce among Mormons is roughly equivalent to the non-Mormon population, but the rate of temple divorce is only about 6%.
	__________________ www.stopsylvia.com

27th February 2013, 10:28 AM	#4783
halleyscomet Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 410	http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comm..._boys_stop_me/ Quote: So I was walking home after work, and two Mormon missionaries asked if they could talk to me about the Book of Mormon. Me: You don't want to talk to me. Bike Boy 1: Why not? Me: (counting off on my fingers) • Your entire religion is based on the sayings of an illiterate convicted con-artist. • There is no evidence for the existence of the 'golden plates' except for the word of an illiterate convicted con-artist, who fled west to avoid prosecution. • Molecular genetic evidence has refuted the Mormon claim that the American Indians were the 'lost tribe of Israel'. • Many of the dogmas of your religion were created by your illiterate convicted con-man founder for his own personal gain. • I find the actions of your church and members during the California Prop 8 campaign to be totally reprehensible, not to mention unconstitutional and illegal. Bike Boy 2 : (muttered under his breath) Oh ****. Bike Boy 1 : Um...those are...um...well... Me: Told ya. (starts walking away) Bike Boy 2 : At least he didn't start screaming at us. I know, it's not the greatest story, but I enjoyed it.

27th February 2013, 12:14 PM	#4784
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363	Originally Posted by halleyscomet http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comm..._boys_stop_me/ Not to take away from you accomplishment, but this happens a few times a day to the missionaries working the Metro stops going into Washington DC. Maybe they shouldn't stake out the same stops used by the archaeologists and historians who work at the Smithsonian.
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363

27th February 2013, 12:36 PM	#4785
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,814	Originally Posted by Craig4 Not to take away from you accomplishment, but this happens a few times a day to the missionaries working the Metro stops going into Washington DC. Maybe they shouldn't stake out the same stops used by the archaeologists and historians who work at the Smithsonian. That must be a beautiful thing to see.

27th February 2013, 12:37 PM	#4786
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,814	Originally Posted by RandFan I'm sorry I thought that I had made that clear before. In the MTC and the mission field we were told to meet with members and ask them questions like "do you know of anyone who has lost a loved one recently"? That kind of thinking got the LDS in real trouble a few years ago when they begun baptizing Holocaust Victims without getting the relatives permission.......

27th February 2013, 12:51 PM	#4787
halleyscomet Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 410	Originally Posted by Craig4 Not to take away from you accomplishment, but this happens a few times a day to the missionaries working the Metro stops going into Washington DC. Maybe they shouldn't stake out the same stops used by the archaeologists and historians who work at the Smithsonian. A point of clarification. I did not write the account, I am merely passing it along.

27th February 2013, 12:55 PM	#4788
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363	Originally Posted by halleyscomet A point of clarification. I did not write the account, I am merely passing it along. It's okay, I'm just remembering a few fun anecdotes. When I posted that I'd been drinking.
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363

27th February 2013, 12:59 PM	#4789
halleyscomet Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 410	Originally Posted by Craig4 It's okay, I'm just remembering a few fun anecdotes. When I posted that I'd been drinking. That reminds me of a joke. Q: Why should you always take two Mormons when you go fishing? A: Because if you only take one, he'll drink all your beer.

27th February 2013, 01:02 PM	#4790
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363	Originally Posted by dudalb That must be a beautiful thing to see. It has it's moments. Why you'd think it is worthwhile to engage a DC commuter in a deep philosophical discussion is beyond me. We pretty much all think the country will collapse if we don't get to work on time or will KILL anyone who gets in the way of us returning to our homes at a decent hour in the evening. I hope the LDS only send the bravest of the brave to DC to work the Metro stops.
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363

27th February 2013, 01:39 PM	#4791
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,212	Originally Posted by halleyscomet That reminds me of a joke. Q: Why should you always take two Mormons when you go fishing? A: Because if you only take one, he'll drink all your beer. It's been done in this thread. But it is a great joke.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

27th February 2013, 01:41 PM	#4792
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363	Originally Posted by RandFan It's been done in this thread. But it is a great joke. We laugh because it's funny and we laugh because it's true.
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363

27th February 2013, 01:46 PM	#4793
halleyscomet Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 410	It occurs to me that a "Black Russian" has got to be one of the most evil things in the universe to a Mormon. It has alcohol in the form of a coffee liquor AND the name references a dark skinned person.

27th February 2013, 02:22 PM	#4794
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,369	Darn good thing its not a "Negro Russian".

27th February 2013, 02:33 PM	#4795
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,212	Originally Posted by SezMe Darn good thing its not a "Negro Russian". It would require a church leader to be sure.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith