LDS - Page 3

Joey McGee · 27th December 2012, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Joey... Joseph was none of those things. False accusations from the followers of Lucifer mean nothing.

He was only one of those things. Someone who was convicted of taking money from a farmer for the service of "glass looking", which is faking you have powers to find buried treasure. He was convicted of this. The documentation proves it. You can either use the technique your cult taught you, believe any criticism or questioning is from the devil, or you can do your own research and see for yourself that there are documents that prove that this happened. And decide which is more likely to be true.

Many cult members are taught that when someone causes them to question their belief, this is the devil working. What a perfect way to keep someone under cult mind control.

Glad to have you in the forum. Have you ever hung around and debated with these people?

cwalner · 27th December 2012, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic...

I disagree. I think that Mormonism (LDS and other churches descended from Smith's teachings) are divergent enough to be classified as their own religion.

The fact that Mormonism still follows the Old and New Testaments is insufficient in my opinion to classify it as Christian. Christians still follow the Old Testament, but nobody considers Christians a Jewish sect. What distinguishes Christians from Jews is additional scripture and a new prophet. What distinguishes Mormons from Christians is additional scripture and a new prophet.

Mormons are no more Christian than Christians are Jews.

RandFan · 27th December 2012, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by cwalner

I disagree. I think that Mormonism (LDS and other churches descended from Smith's teachings) are divergent enough to be classified as their own religion.

The fact that Mormonism still follows the Old and New Testaments is insufficient in my opinion to classify it as Christian. Christians still follow the Old Testament, but nobody considers Christians a Jewish sect. What distinguishes Christians from Jews is additional scripture and a new prophet. What distinguishes Mormons from Christians is additional scripture and a new prophet.

Mormons are no more Christian than Christians are Jews.

I disagree. Anyone who follows the teaching of Christ, IMO, are free to all themselves Christian. We've debated this many times. I find it a bit of a no true Scotsman to accuse Mormons of not being Christians.

We can disagree though.

cwalner · 27th December 2012, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

I disagree. Anyone who follows the teaching of Christ, IMO, are free to all themselves Christian. We've debated this many times. I find it a bit of a no true Scotsman to accuse Mormons of not being Christians.

We can disagree though.

By that same logic, we can say that anybody who worships Yahweh (regardless if they call him Jahovah or Allah) would be a Jew.

Also, my claim that Mormons are not Christians is not an accusation. That implies that I think the label of Christian has some positive connotation. I do not.

I see Mormonism as a child of Christianity in the same way that Christianity is a child of Judaism. We have a clear relationship where one religion developed from the traditions of the other, but with the addition of new scriptures and new prophets, have diverged enough to be considered their own separate religion, rather than just a sect of the original one.

Janadele · 27th December 2012, 06:48 PM

As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given. That does not mean eternal principles change. We will always be the same gender, which will always be the gender of our Spirit and our Intelligence also. These eternal truths do not change.

Originally Posted by Pup

What an odd response, from a member of a church which believes that God can give ongoing revelations, so nothing must be eternal.

Originally Posted by Janadele

Because homosexual activity is against Eternal Law and the reasons for our mortal existence.

dafydd · 27th December 2012, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given. That does not mean eternal principles change. We will always be the same gender, which will always be the gender of our Spirit and our Intelligence also. These eternal truths do not change.

As we progress in our understanding gods are driven into a smaller and smaller corner. Our understanding tells us that all gods are inventions of mankind. Do you believe that the Hindu gods exist, or are they inventions? We only live once, so we are only one gender once. Please provide proof of this spirit.

Janadele · 27th December 2012, 06:53 PM

Thank you Joey

... and no, I have not.

Originally Posted by Joey McGee

... Glad to have you in the forum. Have you ever hung around and debated with ...

tsig · 27th December 2012, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Plus those websites are limited in their ability to address issues. It's obvious that apologetics for something like hermaphroditism just leads to more and more unanswerable questions.

I was told over and over to put my doubts on a shelf and trust in god. Why did god give me a brain if he wanted me to be a brain dead sheep?

God has nothing to do with brains.

ShadowSot · 27th December 2012, 06:56 PM

Especially as the Church has changed their minds on both dark skinned peoples and taken the first steps on changing their minds on homosexuals.

dafydd · 27th December 2012, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

God has nothing to do with brains.

Perhaps, but an imaginary creature can only exist in human brains.

Nay_Sayer · 27th December 2012, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Dinwar

I....I don't know how to take that. That's just....wow. Can you elaborate? Can a member of the LDS here elaborate? Please? I'm very curious about this. I blame it on the fact that my wife is attempting to get me drunk.

The source apparently is now m.i.a

I'll continue searching.

Nay_Sayer · 27th December 2012, 07:10 PM

http://www.lds.org/topics/profanity?lang=eng

Apparently I can combat my spirit with colorful language, I may have already killed it, I did just recently watch a George Carlin special.

Janadele · 27th December 2012, 07:17 PM

The proof is within you.

Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created nor made. The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator.

The creation was twofold—first spiritual, secondly temporal.

The glory of God is intelligence. We were all at different stages of progression in our pre mortal existence, and of graded intelligences. The veil which cloaks our rememberances allows recognition of the truths we knew and also understanding of Eternal Laws... if we will listen.

Originally Posted by dafydd

... Please provide proof of this spirit.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses?lang=eng

Dinwar · 27th December 2012, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by cwalner

By that same logic, we can say that anybody who worships Yahweh (regardless if they call him Jahovah or Allah) would be a Jew.

Welcome to the wonderful world of taxonomy.

Originally Posted by Janadele

As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given.

Put yourself in the place of a nonbeliever. What proof do we have that you have ANY understanding? You obviously don't understand it well enough to explain it--your continued failure to do so is proof of that.

Quote:

Because homosexual activity is against Eternal Law and the reasons for our mortal existence.

It's wrong because it's wrong. That's not an explanation. WHAT Eternal Law? Why should we follow it? What proof is there?

ShadowSot · 27th December 2012, 07:20 PM

Quote:

he proof is within you.

Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created nor made. The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator.

The door is a jar.
Have an ice cream koan.

bruto · 27th December 2012, 07:21 PM

Entirely non religious post here, but Janadele, I live in Benson, Vermont. As you may know, the Mormons came from Vermont, and in Benson it turns out is a building that was briefly one of the very first Mormon churches before the pilgrimage west. There's a book by Erik Barnouw (I think that's the spelling) called House With a Past, relating his experience after buying a little stone house on Temple Road, and his research into the early history of the Mormons, among others. I don't know how difficult it might be to find a copy, but if you're in Mormon country it might be easier. It's pretty interesting. It seems our sleepy little area was once a hotbed of religious fervor and dissension, the jumping off place for "the burned-over district" not just for Mormons but all sorts of religious nonconformists. I think the Mormons began in Northern Vermont, and so did the Oneida Perfectionists. Practically a stone's throw from where the Benson Mormons headed west across the ice of Lake Champlain is the William Miller Chapel, where the Seventh-Day Adventists came into being.

So, not so important, but I thought you'd find it amusing how the twists and turns of history connect the most diverse places.

RandFan · 27th December 2012, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

The proof is within you.

Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created nor made. The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator.

The creation was twofold—first spiritual, secondly temporal.

The glory of God is intelligence. We were all at different stages of progression in our pre mortal existence, and of graded intelligences. The veil which cloaks our rememberances allows recognition of the truths we knew and also understanding of Eternal Laws... if we will listen.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses?lang=eng

Rhetoric. Not at all compelling.

Joey McGee · 27th December 2012, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

The proof is within you.

Religion is just cancer of the mind. It attacks the very notion of a request for evidence, it's seen as an attack. The problem with "it is within you" is that we are just brains with the capacity to imagine and believe our own imaginings are for real. Thus begins the neverending metastasizing of the mind where evidence is rejected for imaginings and imaginings are presented as evidence. This is how cults operate. And clearly, there is no immediate cure, only treatment, which is very difficult, painful and usually requires a willing patient.

hud · 27th December 2012, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Understood. Ask away and I'll respond as best I can. I graduated seminary (the Mormon version) and I have spent a lifetime studying Mormonism.

Ok (and sorry for the delay, family had to come before posting):

The most interesting thing in "Under The Banner Of Heaven" to me was not the tragic use/misuse of faith. It was the description of how they used the government aid programs like the proverbial "welfare queens." Blowing up the system from within or something like that. Far right-wingers who were nevertheless using welfare, food stamps, SS, etc. for all it was worth and then some.

Is that description true, not true, or dismissed as being a small contrarian sect of a much larger faith?

Nay_Sayer · 27th December 2012, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

The proof is within you.

Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created nor made. The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator.

The creation was twofold—first spiritual, secondly temporal.

The glory of God is intelligence. We were all at different stages of progression in our pre mortal existence, and of graded intelligences. The veil which cloaks our rememberances allows recognition of the truths we knew and also understanding of Eternal Laws... if we will listen.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses?lang=eng

Two things:

1:nothing is eternal, everything has a finite life span, even the universe.

2: Does that mean god doesn't exist since he'd'she'd/horse'd have to have a beginning?

Pup · 27th December 2012, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given. That does not mean eternal principles change. We will always be the same gender, which will always be the gender of our Spirit and our Intelligence also. These eternal truths do not change.

That sounds like an endorsement for sex change surgery, to bring the body in line with the gender of the "spirit" and the intelligence.

Bikewer · 27th December 2012, 07:45 PM

I wish I could remember the title....Years ago I took an excellent book out of the library, which dealt with all the "alternate" historical myths of ancient America. That was the first half of the book. The second half gave the actual pre-history, so far as science had been able to determine.
In the first half, amid the myths of Viking colonies in the Midwest and Chinese visits to the West coast and all that stuff, the author detailed the Mormon mythology and the facts surrounding Mr. Smith.
A completely unvarnished account, including the fact that Smith was well-known as a charlatan in the area and a rather hilarious account of the mysteriously-disappearing golden plates and all...
But even funnier was that originally Smith had Jesus appearing to the large population of white folks who were dwelling in N. America at the time. No bones about it... White guys.
Possibly one of the "lost tribes" (how those folks got to be Caucasian was not explained...)

And, how the LDS was forced to re-write (oh, excuse...Have more "revalations") the Book of Mormon to re-cast these individuals as Indians of some sort, since no trace of the Caucasian folks was ever found....
All made up of whole cloth, of course... The author explained that it was common thinking back then that the "primitive savages" who inhabited America could not possibly have been responsible for such megalithic structures as the "mounds". Such massive structures (and the many fine artifacts contained therein...) could only have been produced by folks who were smarter... More advanced... Whiter.
The notion that Amerinds had thriving and advanced cultures prior to the arrival of Europeans did not occur... Mostly since the vast majority of the indigenous people had been wiped out by European diseases before ever the move West began to take off.

Mormonism is almost as much fun as Scientology, and indeed they would seem to share some ideas.....

Cleon · 27th December 2012, 07:53 PM

The fact that millions of people in the United States believe the Book of Mormon is literal history is a stunning indictment of what schools teach (or rather don't teach) about the history of North America.

Foster Zygote · 27th December 2012, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

I disagree. Anyone who follows the teaching of Christ, IMO, are free to all themselves Christian. We've debated this many times. I find it a bit of a no true Scotsman to accuse Mormons of not being Christians.

We can disagree though.

Just look at the incredible variety of Christianities that were around in the first few centuries C.E. It's virtually certain that the historical Jeshua ben Joseph would be apoplectic over the orthodox Christianity that we are familiar with today.

RandFan · 27th December 2012, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

Just look at the incredible variety of Christianities that were around in the first few centuries C.E. It's virtually certain that the historical Jeshua ben Joseph would be apoplectic over the orthodox Christianity that we are familiar with today.

Agreed. Good point.

Cleon · 27th December 2012, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

Just look at the incredible variety of Christianities that were around in the first few centuries C.E. It's virtually certain that the historical Jeshua ben Joseph would be apoplectic over the orthodox Christianity that we are familiar with today.

Yup. If "Christianity" can encompass everything from the Gnostics to mega-churches, I don't see any good reason why Mormonism would be excluded.

Janadele · 27th December 2012, 08:13 PM

ShadowSot:

Originally Posted by Janadele

That the responsibility of the Priesthood was withheld from worthy males of Negro descent for a short period of time, was for a purpose known only to the Lord. It was His decision and His alone and not for mere mortals to question... nor is it their business how the Lord directs His Church.

Originally Posted by Janadele

Despite the hype and misreporting, nothing has changed in Latter-day Saint doctrine regarding same sex attraction, nor will it. The recent announcement was to assure the family of a person who may be struggling with this trial, and the individual themselves, that help is available and providing they do not act on such thoughts they are still welcome within the Church. This has always been the official LDS position.

Originally Posted by ShadowSot

Especially as the Church has changed their minds on both dark skinned peoples and taken the first steps on changing their minds on homosexuals.

Janadele · 27th December 2012, 08:16 PM

No Pup, it is not.

Originally Posted by Pup

That sounds like an endorsement for sex change surgery, to bring the body in line with the gender of the "spirit" and the intelligence.

Originally Posted by Janadele

As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given. That does not mean eternal principles change. We will always be the same gender, which will always be the gender of our Spirit and our Intelligence also. These eternal truths do not change.

thaiboxerken · 27th December 2012, 08:18 PM

Spirits have penises and vaginas. I had no idea spirits had sex, but apparently, they do. (if they existed, that is.)

Janadele, what to spirit penises excrete upon climax? What is spiritual semen called?

RandFan · 27th December 2012, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

...will always be the gender of our Spirit...

What differentiates a male spirit from a female spirit?

ShadowSot · 27th December 2012, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

ShadowSot:

Which, frankly, is a load of horse hockey.

Look, being familiar with your style of posting, I know attempting to engage you on this topic is pointless.
At least on this topic you're as responsive as a robot, unable or unwilling to respond to anything outside of the strict parameters of the LDS website you continue to link to.
Hence why you've still not addressed the issue of hermaphrodites.

Which, sadly, demonstrates some of the worst damages of religion.

RandFan · 27th December 2012, 08:35 PM

Janadele,

This is a skeptics site. Most of us have researched and studied skepticism and critical thinking and most of us are familiar with con games, frauds, mountebanks, charlatans, etc..

You've said absolutely nothing to separate you from any other claim that lacks evidence.

Foster Zygote · 27th December 2012, 08:42 PM

Shades of Kurious Kathy.

Joey McGee · 27th December 2012, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

You've said absolutely nothing to separate you from any other claim that lacks evidence.

Or any other Poe

Dinwar · 27th December 2012, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

You've said absolutely nothing to separate you from any other claim that lacks evidence.

Janadele hasn't said anything new outside of what, three posts now? Four? The rest are just quoting herself (I think it's a her, anyway).

JeanFromBNA · 27th December 2012, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

(snip)
But even funnier was that originally Smith had Jesus appearing to the large population of white folks who were dwelling in N. America at the time. No bones about it... White guys.
Possibly one of the "lost tribes" (how those folks got to be Caucasian was not explained...)

And, how the LDS was forced to re-write (oh, excuse...Have more "revalations") the Book of Mormon to re-cast these individuals as Indians of some sort, since no trace of the Caucasian folks was ever found....
All made up of whole cloth, of course... The author explained that it was common thinking back then that the "primitive savages" who inhabited America could not possibly have been responsible for such megalithic structures as the "mounds". Such massive structures (and the many fine artifacts contained therein...) could only have been produced by folks who were smarter... More advanced... Whiter.
The notion that Amerinds had thriving and advanced cultures prior to the arrival of Europeans did not occur... Mostly since the vast majority of the indigenous people had been wiped out by European diseases before ever the move West began to take off.
(snip)

Comedian Tim Wilson calls it Jesus, The Western.

RandFan · 27th December 2012, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

Shades of Kurious Kathy.

I forgot about KK. Is she still around? I've not been in the R&P forum much in the past two years.

AdMan · 27th December 2012, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

The proof is within you.

Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created nor made. The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator.

The creation was twofold—first spiritual, secondly temporal.

The glory of God is intelligence. We were all at different stages of progression in our pre mortal existence, and of graded intelligences. The veil which cloaks our rememberances allows recognition of the truths we knew and also understanding of Eternal Laws... if we will listen.

Empty, meaningless words and phrases, meant to sound profound.

Guess we can't expect more from a proponent of Joseph Smith's nonsense.

Mark Twain, quite right on The Book of Mormon:

Quote:

The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James’s translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel — half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern — which was about every sentence or two — he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as ‘exceeding sore,’ ‘and it came to pass,’ etc., and made things satisfactory again. ‘And it came to pass’ was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.

Janadele · 27th December 2012, 09:08 PM

Yes they do Bruto, and it is interesting. No, I am not in "Mormon Country"... I am an Australian, in Australia. However, on my visits to the US I have followed the LDS historic trail, including Benson

Originally Posted by bruto

Entirely non religious post here, but Janadele, I live in Benson, Vermont. As you may know, the Mormons came from Vermont, and in Benson it turns out is a building that was briefly one of the very first Mormon churches before the pilgrimage west. There's a book by Erik Barnouw (I think that's the spelling) called House With a Past, relating his experience after buying a little stone house on Temple Road, and his research into the early history of the Mormons, among others. I don't know how difficult it might be to find a copy, but if you're in Mormon country it might be easier. It's pretty interesting. It seems our sleepy little area was once a hotbed of religious fervor and dissension, the jumping off place for "the burned-over district" not just for Mormons but all sorts of religious nonconformists. I think the Mormons began in Northern Vermont, and so did the Oneida Perfectionists. Practically a stone's throw from where the Benson Mormons headed west across the ice of Lake Champlain is the William Miller Chapel, where the Seventh-Day Adventists came into being.

So, not so important, but I thought you'd find it amusing how the twists and turns of history connect the most diverse places.

Janadele · 27th December 2012, 09:28 PM

Bikewer,AdMan, JeanFromBNA, Hud: Regurgitated anti Mormon lies and misleading false propaganda is not on topic to an LDS thread.

27th December 2012, 06:26 PM	#81
Joey McGee Transcendental Naturalist Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,106	continued from women wearing parts to church thread Originally Posted by Janadele Joey... Joseph was none of those things. False accusations from the followers of Lucifer mean nothing. He was only one of those things. Someone who was convicted of taking money from a farmer for the service of "glass looking", which is faking you have powers to find buried treasure. He was convicted of this. The documentation proves it. You can either use the technique your cult taught you, believe any criticism or questioning is from the devil, or you can do your own research and see for yourself that there are documents that prove that this happened. And decide which is more likely to be true. Many cult members are taught that when someone causes them to question their belief, this is the devil working. What a perfect way to keep someone under cult mind control. Glad to have you in the forum. Have you ever hung around and debated with these people?
	__________________ How do I know that this is so? By looking!

27th December 2012, 06:29 PM	#82
cwalner Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Deepest Darkest Indiana Posts: 5,693	Originally Posted by Janadele The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... I disagree. I think that Mormonism (LDS and other churches descended from Smith's teachings) are divergent enough to be classified as their own religion. The fact that Mormonism still follows the Old and New Testaments is insufficient in my opinion to classify it as Christian. Christians still follow the Old Testament, but nobody considers Christians a Jewish sect. What distinguishes Christians from Jews is additional scripture and a new prophet. What distinguishes Mormons from Christians is additional scripture and a new prophet. Mormons are no more Christian than Christians are Jews.
	__________________ Vecini - Inconceivable! Inigo - You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

27th December 2012, 06:35 PM	#83
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,116	Originally Posted by cwalner I disagree. I think that Mormonism (LDS and other churches descended from Smith's teachings) are divergent enough to be classified as their own religion. The fact that Mormonism still follows the Old and New Testaments is insufficient in my opinion to classify it as Christian. Christians still follow the Old Testament, but nobody considers Christians a Jewish sect. What distinguishes Christians from Jews is additional scripture and a new prophet. What distinguishes Mormons from Christians is additional scripture and a new prophet. Mormons are no more Christian than Christians are Jews. I disagree. Anyone who follows the teaching of Christ, IMO, are free to all themselves Christian. We've debated this many times. I find it a bit of a no true Scotsman to accuse Mormons of not being Christians. We can disagree though.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

27th December 2012, 06:46 PM	#84
cwalner Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Deepest Darkest Indiana Posts: 5,693	Originally Posted by RandFan I disagree. Anyone who follows the teaching of Christ, IMO, are free to all themselves Christian. We've debated this many times. I find it a bit of a no true Scotsman to accuse Mormons of not being Christians. We can disagree though. By that same logic, we can say that anybody who worships Yahweh (regardless if they call him Jahovah or Allah) would be a Jew. Also, my claim that Mormons are not Christians is not an accusation. That implies that I think the label of Christian has some positive connotation. I do not. I see Mormonism as a child of Christianity in the same way that Christianity is a child of Judaism. We have a clear relationship where one religion developed from the traditions of the other, but with the addition of new scriptures and new prophets, have diverged enough to be considered their own separate religion, rather than just a sect of the original one.
	__________________ Vecini - Inconceivable! Inigo - You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

27th December 2012, 06:48 PM	#85
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given. That does not mean eternal principles change. We will always be the same gender, which will always be the gender of our Spirit and our Intelligence also. These eternal truths do not change. Originally Posted by Pup What an odd response, from a member of a church which believes that God can give ongoing revelations, so nothing must be eternal. Originally Posted by Janadele Because homosexual activity is against Eternal Law and the reasons for our mortal existence.
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

27th December 2012, 06:51 PM	#86
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,444	Originally Posted by Janadele As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given. That does not mean eternal principles change. We will always be the same gender, which will always be the gender of our Spirit and our Intelligence also. These eternal truths do not change. As we progress in our understanding gods are driven into a smaller and smaller corner. Our understanding tells us that all gods are inventions of mankind. Do you believe that the Hindu gods exist, or are they inventions? We only live once, so we are only one gender once. Please provide proof of this spirit.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away. Last edited by dafydd; 27th December 2012 at 06:53 PM.

27th December 2012, 06:53 PM	#87
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	Thank you Joey ... and no, I have not. Originally Posted by Joey McGee ... Glad to have you in the forum. Have you ever hung around and debated with ...
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

27th December 2012, 06:54 PM	#88
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,679	Originally Posted by RandFan Plus those websites are limited in their ability to address issues. It's obvious that apologetics for something like hermaphroditism just leads to more and more unanswerable questions. I was told over and over to put my doubts on a shelf and trust in god. Why did god give me a brain if he wanted me to be a brain dead sheep? God has nothing to do with brains.

27th December 2012, 06:56 PM	#89
ShadowSot Muse Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pensacola Posts: 769	Especially as the Church has changed their minds on both dark skinned peoples and taken the first steps on changing their minds on homosexuals.
	__________________ I love this crazy tragic, sometimes almost magic, awful beautiful life. - Darryl Worley The Stupid! It burns!

27th December 2012, 06:57 PM	#90
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,444	Originally Posted by tsig God has nothing to do with brains. Perhaps, but an imaginary creature can only exist in human brains.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

27th December 2012, 06:57 PM	#91
Nay_Sayer Muse Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Long Island Posts: 741	Originally Posted by Dinwar I....I don't know how to take that. That's just....wow. Can you elaborate? Can a member of the LDS here elaborate? Please? I'm very curious about this. I blame it on the fact that my wife is attempting to get me drunk. The source apparently is now m.i.a I'll continue searching.
	__________________ "The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum." -Thomas Paine- ------------------------------------------------ I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds. If you agree add this to your sig. Last edited by Nay_Sayer; 27th December 2012 at 07:01 PM.

27th December 2012, 07:10 PM	#92
Nay_Sayer Muse Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Long Island Posts: 741	http://www.lds.org/topics/profanity?lang=eng Apparently I can combat my spirit with colorful language, I may have already killed it, I did just recently watch a George Carlin special.
	__________________ "The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum." -Thomas Paine- ------------------------------------------------ I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds. If you agree add this to your sig.

27th December 2012, 07:17 PM	#93
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	The proof is within you. Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created nor made. The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning. One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator. The creation was twofold—first spiritual, secondly temporal. The glory of God is intelligence. We were all at different stages of progression in our pre mortal existence, and of graded intelligences. The veil which cloaks our rememberances allows recognition of the truths we knew and also understanding of Eternal Laws... if we will listen. Originally Posted by dafydd ... Please provide proof of this spirit. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses?lang=eng
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

27th December 2012, 07:19 PM	#94
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,908	Originally Posted by cwalner By that same logic, we can say that anybody who worships Yahweh (regardless if they call him Jahovah or Allah) would be a Jew. Welcome to the wonderful world of taxonomy. Originally Posted by Janadele As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given. Put yourself in the place of a nonbeliever. What proof do we have that you have ANY understanding? You obviously don't understand it well enough to explain it--your continued failure to do so is proof of that. Quote: Because homosexual activity is against Eternal Law and the reasons for our mortal existence. It's wrong because it's wrong. That's not an explanation. WHAT Eternal Law? Why should we follow it? What proof is there?
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,908	__________________ GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. Ein krieg ohne feinde.

27th December 2012, 07:20 PM	#95
ShadowSot Muse Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pensacola Posts: 769	Quote: he proof is within you. Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created nor made. The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning. One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator. The door is a jar. Have an ice cream koan.
	__________________ I love this crazy tragic, sometimes almost magic, awful beautiful life. - Darryl Worley The Stupid! It burns!

27th December 2012, 07:21 PM	#96
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 11,181	Entirely non religious post here, but Janadele, I live in Benson, Vermont. As you may know, the Mormons came from Vermont, and in Benson it turns out is a building that was briefly one of the very first Mormon churches before the pilgrimage west. There's a book by Erik Barnouw (I think that's the spelling) called House With a Past, relating his experience after buying a little stone house on Temple Road, and his research into the early history of the Mormons, among others. I don't know how difficult it might be to find a copy, but if you're in Mormon country it might be easier. It's pretty interesting. It seems our sleepy little area was once a hotbed of religious fervor and dissension, the jumping off place for "the burned-over district" not just for Mormons but all sorts of religious nonconformists. I think the Mormons began in Northern Vermont, and so did the Oneida Perfectionists. Practically a stone's throw from where the Benson Mormons headed west across the ice of Lake Champlain is the William Miller Chapel, where the Seventh-Day Adventists came into being. So, not so important, but I thought you'd find it amusing how the twists and turns of history connect the most diverse places.
	__________________ "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding.(Samuel Johnson) The gods are less for their love of praise....(Wendell Berry)

27th December 2012, 07:24 PM	#97
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,116	Originally Posted by Janadele The proof is within you. Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created nor made. The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning. One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator. The creation was twofold—first spiritual, secondly temporal. The glory of God is intelligence. We were all at different stages of progression in our pre mortal existence, and of graded intelligences. The veil which cloaks our rememberances allows recognition of the truths we knew and also understanding of Eternal Laws... if we will listen. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses?lang=eng Rhetoric. Not at all compelling.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

27th December 2012, 07:28 PM	#98
Joey McGee Transcendental Naturalist Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,106	Originally Posted by Janadele The proof is within you. Religion is just cancer of the mind. It attacks the very notion of a request for evidence, it's seen as an attack. The problem with "it is within you" is that we are just brains with the capacity to imagine and believe our own imaginings are for real. Thus begins the neverending metastasizing of the mind where evidence is rejected for imaginings and imaginings are presented as evidence. This is how cults operate. And clearly, there is no immediate cure, only treatment, which is very difficult, painful and usually requires a willing patient.
	__________________ How do I know that this is so? By looking!

27th December 2012, 07:37 PM	#99
hud Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 441	Originally Posted by RandFan Understood. Ask away and I'll respond as best I can. I graduated seminary (the Mormon version) and I have spent a lifetime studying Mormonism. Ok (and sorry for the delay, family had to come before posting): The most interesting thing in "Under The Banner Of Heaven" to me was not the tragic use/misuse of faith. It was the description of how they used the government aid programs like the proverbial "welfare queens." Blowing up the system from within or something like that. Far right-wingers who were nevertheless using welfare, food stamps, SS, etc. for all it was worth and then some. Is that description true, not true, or dismissed as being a small contrarian sect of a much larger faith?
hud Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 441

27th December 2012, 07:39 PM	#100
Nay_Sayer Muse Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Long Island Posts: 741	Originally Posted by Janadele The proof is within you. Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created nor made. The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning. One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator. The creation was twofold—first spiritual, secondly temporal. The glory of God is intelligence. We were all at different stages of progression in our pre mortal existence, and of graded intelligences. The veil which cloaks our rememberances allows recognition of the truths we knew and also understanding of Eternal Laws... if we will listen. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses?lang=eng Two things: 1:nothing is eternal, everything has a finite life span, even the universe. 2: Does that mean god doesn't exist since he'd'she'd/horse'd have to have a beginning?
	__________________ "The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum." -Thomas Paine- ------------------------------------------------ I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds. If you agree add this to your sig.

27th December 2012, 07:41 PM	#101
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,588	Originally Posted by Janadele As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given. That does not mean eternal principles change. We will always be the same gender, which will always be the gender of our Spirit and our Intelligence also. These eternal truths do not change. That sounds like an endorsement for sex change surgery, to bring the body in line with the gender of the "spirit" and the intelligence.
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,588

27th December 2012, 07:45 PM	#102
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,519	I wish I could remember the title....Years ago I took an excellent book out of the library, which dealt with all the "alternate" historical myths of ancient America. That was the first half of the book. The second half gave the actual pre-history, so far as science had been able to determine. In the first half, amid the myths of Viking colonies in the Midwest and Chinese visits to the West coast and all that stuff, the author detailed the Mormon mythology and the facts surrounding Mr. Smith. A completely unvarnished account, including the fact that Smith was well-known as a charlatan in the area and a rather hilarious account of the mysteriously-disappearing golden plates and all... But even funnier was that originally Smith had Jesus appearing to the large population of white folks who were dwelling in N. America at the time. No bones about it... White guys. Possibly one of the "lost tribes" (how those folks got to be Caucasian was not explained...) And, how the LDS was forced to re-write (oh, excuse...Have more "revalations") the Book of Mormon to re-cast these individuals as Indians of some sort, since no trace of the Caucasian folks was ever found.... All made up of whole cloth, of course... The author explained that it was common thinking back then that the "primitive savages" who inhabited America could not possibly have been responsible for such megalithic structures as the "mounds". Such massive structures (and the many fine artifacts contained therein...) could only have been produced by folks who were smarter... More advanced... Whiter. The notion that Amerinds had thriving and advanced cultures prior to the arrival of Europeans did not occur... Mostly since the vast majority of the indigenous people had been wiped out by European diseases before ever the move West began to take off. Mormonism is almost as much fun as Scientology, and indeed they would seem to share some ideas.....

27th December 2012, 07:53 PM	#103
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,506	The fact that millions of people in the United States believe the Book of Mormon is literal history is a stunning indictment of what schools teach (or rather don't teach) about the history of North America.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

27th December 2012, 07:54 PM	#104
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge Posts: 14,386	Originally Posted by RandFan I disagree. Anyone who follows the teaching of Christ, IMO, are free to all themselves Christian. We've debated this many times. I find it a bit of a no true Scotsman to accuse Mormons of not being Christians. We can disagree though. Just look at the incredible variety of Christianities that were around in the first few centuries C.E. It's virtually certain that the historical Jeshua ben Joseph would be apoplectic over the orthodox Christianity that we are familiar with today.
	__________________ It looks just like a Telefunken U47... You'll love it.

27th December 2012, 07:59 PM	#105
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,116	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote Just look at the incredible variety of Christianities that were around in the first few centuries C.E. It's virtually certain that the historical Jeshua ben Joseph would be apoplectic over the orthodox Christianity that we are familiar with today. Agreed. Good point.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith Last edited by RandFan; 27th December 2012 at 08:01 PM.

27th December 2012, 08:07 PM	#106
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,506	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote Just look at the incredible variety of Christianities that were around in the first few centuries C.E. It's virtually certain that the historical Jeshua ben Joseph would be apoplectic over the orthodox Christianity that we are familiar with today. Yup. If "Christianity" can encompass everything from the Gnostics to mega-churches, I don't see any good reason why Mormonism would be excluded.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

27th December 2012, 08:13 PM	#107
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	ShadowSot: Originally Posted by Janadele That the responsibility of the Priesthood was withheld from worthy males of Negro descent for a short period of time, was for a purpose known only to the Lord. It was His decision and His alone and not for mere mortals to question... nor is it their business how the Lord directs His Church. Originally Posted by Janadele Despite the hype and misreporting, nothing has changed in Latter-day Saint doctrine regarding same sex attraction, nor will it. The recent announcement was to assure the family of a person who may be struggling with this trial, and the individual themselves, that help is available and providing they do not act on such thoughts they are still welcome within the Church. This has always been the official LDS position. Originally Posted by ShadowSot Especially as the Church has changed their minds on both dark skinned peoples and taken the first steps on changing their minds on homosexuals.
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

27th December 2012, 08:16 PM	#108
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	No Pup, it is not. Originally Posted by Pup That sounds like an endorsement for sex change surgery, to bring the body in line with the gender of the "spirit" and the intelligence. Originally Posted by Janadele As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given. That does not mean eternal principles change. We will always be the same gender, which will always be the gender of our Spirit and our Intelligence also. These eternal truths do not change.
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

27th December 2012, 08:18 PM	#109
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,950	Spirits have penises and vaginas. I had no idea spirits had sex, but apparently, they do. (if they existed, that is.) Janadele, what to spirit penises excrete upon climax? What is spiritual semen called?
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine Last edited by thaiboxerken; 27th December 2012 at 08:19 PM.

27th December 2012, 08:19 PM	#110
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,116	Originally Posted by Janadele ...will always be the gender of our Spirit... What differentiates a male spirit from a female spirit?
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

27th December 2012, 08:25 PM	#111
ShadowSot Muse Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pensacola Posts: 769	Originally Posted by Janadele ShadowSot: Which, frankly, is a load of horse hockey. Look, being familiar with your style of posting, I know attempting to engage you on this topic is pointless. At least on this topic you're as responsive as a robot, unable or unwilling to respond to anything outside of the strict parameters of the LDS website you continue to link to. Hence why you've still not addressed the issue of hermaphrodites. Which, sadly, demonstrates some of the worst damages of religion.
	__________________ I love this crazy tragic, sometimes almost magic, awful beautiful life. - Darryl Worley The Stupid! It burns!

27th December 2012, 08:35 PM	#112
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,116	Where's the beef? Janadele, This is a skeptics site. Most of us have researched and studied skepticism and critical thinking and most of us are familiar with con games, frauds, mountebanks, charlatans, etc.. You've said absolutely nothing to separate you from any other claim that lacks evidence.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

27th December 2012, 08:42 PM	#113
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge Posts: 14,386	Shades of Kurious Kathy.
	__________________ It looks just like a Telefunken U47... You'll love it.

27th December 2012, 08:45 PM	#114
Joey McGee Transcendental Naturalist Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,106	Originally Posted by RandFan You've said absolutely nothing to separate you from any other claim that lacks evidence. Or any other Poe
	__________________ How do I know that this is so? By looking!

27th December 2012, 08:52 PM	#115
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,908	Originally Posted by RandFan You've said absolutely nothing to separate you from any other claim that lacks evidence. Janadele hasn't said anything new outside of what, three posts now? Four? The rest are just quoting herself (I think it's a her, anyway).
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,908	__________________ GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. Ein krieg ohne feinde.