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Old 27th December 2012, 06:26 PM   #81
Joey McGee
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continued from women wearing parts to church thread

Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Joey... Joseph was none of those things. False accusations from the followers of Lucifer mean nothing.
He was only one of those things. Someone who was convicted of taking money from a farmer for the service of "glass looking", which is faking you have powers to find buried treasure. He was convicted of this. The documentation proves it. You can either use the technique your cult taught you, believe any criticism or questioning is from the devil, or you can do your own research and see for yourself that there are documents that prove that this happened. And decide which is more likely to be true.

Many cult members are taught that when someone causes them to question their belief, this is the devil working. What a perfect way to keep someone under cult mind control.

Glad to have you in the forum. Have you ever hung around and debated with these people?
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:29 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic...
I disagree. I think that Mormonism (LDS and other churches descended from Smith's teachings) are divergent enough to be classified as their own religion.

The fact that Mormonism still follows the Old and New Testaments is insufficient in my opinion to classify it as Christian. Christians still follow the Old Testament, but nobody considers Christians a Jewish sect. What distinguishes Christians from Jews is additional scripture and a new prophet. What distinguishes Mormons from Christians is additional scripture and a new prophet.

Mormons are no more Christian than Christians are Jews.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:35 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by cwalner View Post
I disagree. I think that Mormonism (LDS and other churches descended from Smith's teachings) are divergent enough to be classified as their own religion.

The fact that Mormonism still follows the Old and New Testaments is insufficient in my opinion to classify it as Christian. Christians still follow the Old Testament, but nobody considers Christians a Jewish sect. What distinguishes Christians from Jews is additional scripture and a new prophet. What distinguishes Mormons from Christians is additional scripture and a new prophet.

Mormons are no more Christian than Christians are Jews.
I disagree. Anyone who follows the teaching of Christ, IMO, are free to all themselves Christian. We've debated this many times. I find it a bit of a no true Scotsman to accuse Mormons of not being Christians.

We can disagree though.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:46 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
I disagree. Anyone who follows the teaching of Christ, IMO, are free to all themselves Christian. We've debated this many times. I find it a bit of a no true Scotsman to accuse Mormons of not being Christians.

We can disagree though.
By that same logic, we can say that anybody who worships Yahweh (regardless if they call him Jahovah or Allah) would be a Jew.

Also, my claim that Mormons are not Christians is not an accusation. That implies that I think the label of Christian has some positive connotation. I do not.

I see Mormonism as a child of Christianity in the same way that Christianity is a child of Judaism. We have a clear relationship where one religion developed from the traditions of the other, but with the addition of new scriptures and new prophets, have diverged enough to be considered their own separate religion, rather than just a sect of the original one.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:48 PM   #85
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As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given. That does not mean eternal principles change. We will always be the same gender, which will always be the gender of our Spirit and our Intelligence also. These eternal truths do not change.
Originally Posted by Pup View Post
What an odd response, from a member of a church which believes that God can give ongoing revelations, so nothing must be eternal.
Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Because homosexual activity is against Eternal Law and the reasons for our mortal existence.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:51 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given. That does not mean eternal principles change. We will always be the same gender, which will always be the gender of our Spirit and our Intelligence also. These eternal truths do not change.
As we progress in our understanding gods are driven into a smaller and smaller corner. Our understanding tells us that all gods are inventions of mankind. Do you believe that the Hindu gods exist, or are they inventions? We only live once, so we are only one gender once. Please provide proof of this spirit.

Last edited by dafydd; 27th December 2012 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:53 PM   #87
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Thank you Joey ... and no, I have not.
Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
... Glad to have you in the forum. Have you ever hung around and debated with ...
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:54 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Plus those websites are limited in their ability to address issues. It's obvious that apologetics for something like hermaphroditism just leads to more and more unanswerable questions.

I was told over and over to put my doubts on a shelf and trust in god. Why did god give me a brain if he wanted me to be a brain dead sheep?
God has nothing to do with brains.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:56 PM   #89
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Especially as the Church has changed their minds on both dark skinned peoples and taken the first steps on changing their minds on homosexuals.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:57 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
God has nothing to do with brains.
Perhaps, but an imaginary creature can only exist in human brains.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:57 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
I....I don't know how to take that. That's just....wow. Can you elaborate? Can a member of the LDS here elaborate? Please? I'm very curious about this. I blame it on the fact that my wife is attempting to get me drunk.
The source apparently is now m.i.a

I'll continue searching.
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:10 PM   #92
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http://www.lds.org/topics/profanity?lang=eng

Apparently I can combat my spirit with colorful language, I may have already killed it, I did just recently watch a George Carlin special.
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:17 PM   #93
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Lightbulb

The proof is within you.

Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created nor made. The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator.

The creation was twofold—first spiritual, secondly temporal.

The glory of God is intelligence. We were all at different stages of progression in our pre mortal existence, and of graded intelligences. The veil which cloaks our rememberances allows recognition of the truths we knew and also understanding of Eternal Laws... if we will listen.

Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
... Please provide proof of this spirit.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses?lang=eng
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:19 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by cwalner View Post
By that same logic, we can say that anybody who worships Yahweh (regardless if they call him Jahovah or Allah) would be a Jew.
Welcome to the wonderful world of taxonomy.

Originally Posted by Janadele
As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given.
Put yourself in the place of a nonbeliever. What proof do we have that you have ANY understanding? You obviously don't understand it well enough to explain it--your continued failure to do so is proof of that.

Quote:
Because homosexual activity is against Eternal Law and the reasons for our mortal existence.
It's wrong because it's wrong. That's not an explanation. WHAT Eternal Law? Why should we follow it? What proof is there?
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:20 PM   #95
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Quote:
he proof is within you.

Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created nor made. The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator.
The door is a jar.
Have an ice cream koan.
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:21 PM   #96
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Entirely non religious post here, but Janadele, I live in Benson, Vermont. As you may know, the Mormons came from Vermont, and in Benson it turns out is a building that was briefly one of the very first Mormon churches before the pilgrimage west. There's a book by Erik Barnouw (I think that's the spelling) called House With a Past, relating his experience after buying a little stone house on Temple Road, and his research into the early history of the Mormons, among others. I don't know how difficult it might be to find a copy, but if you're in Mormon country it might be easier. It's pretty interesting. It seems our sleepy little area was once a hotbed of religious fervor and dissension, the jumping off place for "the burned-over district" not just for Mormons but all sorts of religious nonconformists. I think the Mormons began in Northern Vermont, and so did the Oneida Perfectionists. Practically a stone's throw from where the Benson Mormons headed west across the ice of Lake Champlain is the William Miller Chapel, where the Seventh-Day Adventists came into being.

So, not so important, but I thought you'd find it amusing how the twists and turns of history connect the most diverse places.
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:24 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The proof is within you.

Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created nor made. The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator.

The creation was twofold—first spiritual, secondly temporal.

The glory of God is intelligence. We were all at different stages of progression in our pre mortal existence, and of graded intelligences. The veil which cloaks our rememberances allows recognition of the truths we knew and also understanding of Eternal Laws... if we will listen.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses?lang=eng
Rhetoric. Not at all compelling.
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:28 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The proof is within you.
Religion is just cancer of the mind. It attacks the very notion of a request for evidence, it's seen as an attack. The problem with "it is within you" is that we are just brains with the capacity to imagine and believe our own imaginings are for real. Thus begins the neverending metastasizing of the mind where evidence is rejected for imaginings and imaginings are presented as evidence. This is how cults operate. And clearly, there is no immediate cure, only treatment, which is very difficult, painful and usually requires a willing patient.
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:37 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Understood. Ask away and I'll respond as best I can. I graduated seminary (the Mormon version) and I have spent a lifetime studying Mormonism.
Ok (and sorry for the delay, family had to come before posting):

The most interesting thing in "Under The Banner Of Heaven" to me was not the tragic use/misuse of faith. It was the description of how they used the government aid programs like the proverbial "welfare queens." Blowing up the system from within or something like that. Far right-wingers who were nevertheless using welfare, food stamps, SS, etc. for all it was worth and then some.

Is that description true, not true, or dismissed as being a small contrarian sect of a much larger faith?
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:39 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The proof is within you.

Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created nor made. The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator.

The creation was twofold—first spiritual, secondly temporal.

The glory of God is intelligence. We were all at different stages of progression in our pre mortal existence, and of graded intelligences. The veil which cloaks our rememberances allows recognition of the truths we knew and also understanding of Eternal Laws... if we will listen.


https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses?lang=eng

Two things:

1:nothing is eternal, everything has a finite life span, even the universe.

2: Does that mean god doesn't exist since he'd'she'd/horse'd have to have a beginning?
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:41 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given. That does not mean eternal principles change. We will always be the same gender, which will always be the gender of our Spirit and our Intelligence also. These eternal truths do not change.
That sounds like an endorsement for sex change surgery, to bring the body in line with the gender of the "spirit" and the intelligence.
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:45 PM   #102
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I wish I could remember the title....Years ago I took an excellent book out of the library, which dealt with all the "alternate" historical myths of ancient America. That was the first half of the book. The second half gave the actual pre-history, so far as science had been able to determine.
In the first half, amid the myths of Viking colonies in the Midwest and Chinese visits to the West coast and all that stuff, the author detailed the Mormon mythology and the facts surrounding Mr. Smith.
A completely unvarnished account, including the fact that Smith was well-known as a charlatan in the area and a rather hilarious account of the mysteriously-disappearing golden plates and all...
But even funnier was that originally Smith had Jesus appearing to the large population of white folks who were dwelling in N. America at the time. No bones about it... White guys.
Possibly one of the "lost tribes" (how those folks got to be Caucasian was not explained...)

And, how the LDS was forced to re-write (oh, excuse...Have more "revalations") the Book of Mormon to re-cast these individuals as Indians of some sort, since no trace of the Caucasian folks was ever found....
All made up of whole cloth, of course... The author explained that it was common thinking back then that the "primitive savages" who inhabited America could not possibly have been responsible for such megalithic structures as the "mounds". Such massive structures (and the many fine artifacts contained therein...) could only have been produced by folks who were smarter... More advanced... Whiter.
The notion that Amerinds had thriving and advanced cultures prior to the arrival of Europeans did not occur... Mostly since the vast majority of the indigenous people had been wiped out by European diseases before ever the move West began to take off.

Mormonism is almost as much fun as Scientology, and indeed they would seem to share some ideas.....
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:53 PM   #103
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The fact that millions of people in the United States believe the Book of Mormon is literal history is a stunning indictment of what schools teach (or rather don't teach) about the history of North America.
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:54 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
I disagree. Anyone who follows the teaching of Christ, IMO, are free to all themselves Christian. We've debated this many times. I find it a bit of a no true Scotsman to accuse Mormons of not being Christians.

We can disagree though.
Just look at the incredible variety of Christianities that were around in the first few centuries C.E. It's virtually certain that the historical Jeshua ben Joseph would be apoplectic over the orthodox Christianity that we are familiar with today.
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:59 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Just look at the incredible variety of Christianities that were around in the first few centuries C.E. It's virtually certain that the historical Jeshua ben Joseph would be apoplectic over the orthodox Christianity that we are familiar with today.
Agreed. Good point.
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Old 27th December 2012, 08:07 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Just look at the incredible variety of Christianities that were around in the first few centuries C.E. It's virtually certain that the historical Jeshua ben Joseph would be apoplectic over the orthodox Christianity that we are familiar with today.
Yup. If "Christianity" can encompass everything from the Gnostics to mega-churches, I don't see any good reason why Mormonism would be excluded.
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Old 27th December 2012, 08:13 PM   #107
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ShadowSot:
Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
That the responsibility of the Priesthood was withheld from worthy males of Negro descent for a short period of time, was for a purpose known only to the Lord. It was His decision and His alone and not for mere mortals to question... nor is it their business how the Lord directs His Church.
Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Despite the hype and misreporting, nothing has changed in Latter-day Saint doctrine regarding same sex attraction, nor will it. The recent announcement was to assure the family of a person who may be struggling with this trial, and the individual themselves, that help is available and providing they do not act on such thoughts they are still welcome within the Church. This has always been the official LDS position.
Originally Posted by ShadowSot View Post
Especially as the Church has changed their minds on both dark skinned peoples and taken the first steps on changing their minds on homosexuals.
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Old 27th December 2012, 08:16 PM   #108
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No Pup, it is not.
Originally Posted by Pup View Post
That sounds like an endorsement for sex change surgery, to bring the body in line with the gender of the "spirit" and the intelligence.
Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given. That does not mean eternal principles change. We will always be the same gender, which will always be the gender of our Spirit and our Intelligence also. These eternal truths do not change.
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Old 27th December 2012, 08:18 PM   #109
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Spirits have penises and vaginas. I had no idea spirits had sex, but apparently, they do. (if they existed, that is.)

Janadele, what to spirit penises excrete upon climax? What is spiritual semen called?
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Old 27th December 2012, 08:19 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Janadele
...will always be the gender of our Spirit...
What differentiates a male spirit from a female spirit?
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Old 27th December 2012, 08:25 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
ShadowSot:
Which, frankly, is a load of horse hockey.

Look, being familiar with your style of posting, I know attempting to engage you on this topic is pointless.
At least on this topic you're as responsive as a robot, unable or unwilling to respond to anything outside of the strict parameters of the LDS website you continue to link to.
Hence why you've still not addressed the issue of hermaphrodites.

Which, sadly, demonstrates some of the worst damages of religion.
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Old 27th December 2012, 08:35 PM   #112
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Where's the beef?

Janadele,

This is a skeptics site. Most of us have researched and studied skepticism and critical thinking and most of us are familiar with con games, frauds, mountebanks, charlatans, etc..

You've said absolutely nothing to separate you from any other claim that lacks evidence.
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Old 27th December 2012, 08:42 PM   #113
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Shades of Kurious Kathy.
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Old 27th December 2012, 08:45 PM   #114
Joey McGee
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
You've said absolutely nothing to separate you from any other claim that lacks evidence.
Or any other Poe
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Old 27th December 2012, 08:52 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post

You've said absolutely nothing to separate you from any other claim that lacks evidence.
Janadele hasn't said anything new outside of what, three posts now? Four? The rest are just quoting herself (I think it's a her, anyway).
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Old 27th December 2012, 08:56 PM   #116
JeanFromBNA
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
(snip)
But even funnier was that originally Smith had Jesus appearing to the large population of white folks who were dwelling in N. America at the time. No bones about it... White guys.
Possibly one of the "lost tribes" (how those folks got to be Caucasian was not explained...)

And, how the LDS was forced to re-write (oh, excuse...Have more "revalations") the Book of Mormon to re-cast these individuals as Indians of some sort, since no trace of the Caucasian folks was ever found....
All made up of whole cloth, of course... The author explained that it was common thinking back then that the "primitive savages" who inhabited America could not possibly have been responsible for such megalithic structures as the "mounds". Such massive structures (and the many fine artifacts contained therein...) could only have been produced by folks who were smarter... More advanced... Whiter.
The notion that Amerinds had thriving and advanced cultures prior to the arrival of Europeans did not occur... Mostly since the vast majority of the indigenous people had been wiped out by European diseases before ever the move West began to take off.
(snip)
Comedian Tim Wilson calls it Jesus, The Western.
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Old 27th December 2012, 08:57 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Shades of Kurious Kathy.
I forgot about KK. Is she still around? I've not been in the R&P forum much in the past two years.
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Old 27th December 2012, 09:04 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The proof is within you.

Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created nor made. The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator.

The creation was twofold—first spiritual, secondly temporal.

The glory of God is intelligence. We were all at different stages of progression in our pre mortal existence, and of graded intelligences. The veil which cloaks our rememberances allows recognition of the truths we knew and also understanding of Eternal Laws... if we will listen.

Empty, meaningless words and phrases, meant to sound profound.

Guess we can't expect more from a proponent of Joseph Smith's nonsense.

Mark Twain, quite right on The Book of Mormon:

Quote:
The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James’s translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel — half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern — which was about every sentence or two — he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as ‘exceeding sore,’ ‘and it came to pass,’ etc., and made things satisfactory again. ‘And it came to pass’ was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.
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Last edited by AdMan; 27th December 2012 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 27th December 2012, 09:08 PM   #119
Janadele
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Smile

Yes they do Bruto, and it is interesting. No, I am not in "Mormon Country"... I am an Australian, in Australia. However, on my visits to the US I have followed the LDS historic trail, including Benson
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Entirely non religious post here, but Janadele, I live in Benson, Vermont. As you may know, the Mormons came from Vermont, and in Benson it turns out is a building that was briefly one of the very first Mormon churches before the pilgrimage west. There's a book by Erik Barnouw (I think that's the spelling) called House With a Past, relating his experience after buying a little stone house on Temple Road, and his research into the early history of the Mormons, among others. I don't know how difficult it might be to find a copy, but if you're in Mormon country it might be easier. It's pretty interesting. It seems our sleepy little area was once a hotbed of religious fervor and dissension, the jumping off place for "the burned-over district" not just for Mormons but all sorts of religious nonconformists. I think the Mormons began in Northern Vermont, and so did the Oneida Perfectionists. Practically a stone's throw from where the Benson Mormons headed west across the ice of Lake Champlain is the William Miller Chapel, where the Seventh-Day Adventists came into being.

So, not so important, but I thought you'd find it amusing how the twists and turns of history connect the most diverse places.
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Old 27th December 2012, 09:28 PM   #120
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Bikewer,AdMan, JeanFromBNA, Hud: Regurgitated anti Mormon lies and misleading false propaganda is not on topic to an LDS thread.
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