LDS - Page 4

AdMan · 27th December 2012, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Bikewer,AdMan, JeanFromBNA, Hud: Regurgitated anti Mormon lies and misleading false propaganda is not on topic to an LDS thread.

Posting about the LDS and the obvious lies and nonsense it is spreading is on topic in a thread about Mormonism.

If you feel any posts are off topic, feel free to report them.

Otherwise, respond to the posts or admit you can't do it.

Mormonism is quite obviously made-up BS. Nobody who looks at this religion with a genuinely critical eye can conclude otherwise.

RandFan · 27th December 2012, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Bikewer,AdMan, JeanFromBNA, Hud: Regurgitated anti Mormon lies and misleading false propaganda is not on topic to an LDS thread.

Please be specific. What lies? I'm sorry Janadele but simply asserting that they are lies is fallacy.

You are entitled to your beliefs and I'm perfectly happy to respect them. But this is a skeptics site. You should expect criticisms and arguments against Mormonism.

Craig4 · 27th December 2012, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Bikewer,AdMan, JeanFromBNA, Hud: Regurgitated anti Mormon lies and misleading false propaganda is not on topic to an LDS thread.

How could pointing out to blatantly obvious and fraudulent nature of the belief system not be on topic?

Janadele · 27th December 2012, 10:01 PM

Discussions of actual LDS beliefs is fine... but posting nonsense as being LDS when it is not LDS is not. I do not respond to anti Mormon propaganda. This is my choice and my right. Insults, bullying, and rude demands will not influence nor change my decision to not engage in pointless arguments or discussion on material which is false, misleading garbage. Whereas I will respond to genuine questions or criticisms of actual LDS beliefs.

bruto · 27th December 2012, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by AdMan

Posting about the LDS and the obvious lies and nonsense it is spreading is on topic in a thread about Mormonism.

If you feel any posts are off topic, feel free to report them.

Otherwise, respond to the posts or admit you can't do it.

Mormonism is quite obviously made-up BS. Nobody who looks at this religion with a genuinely critical eye can conclude otherwise.

I don't think it's an issue of being on or off topic. The question is whether the named posters describe actual Mormon practices and beliefs, which Janadele says they do not. I imagine that if she is wrong about this it should not be hard to find some better references. I suspect, for example, that Bikewer's history is closer to fact than current believers would care to admit. But otherwise, since we are pretty well agreed that it is all made up BS, one need not embellish it. Janadele has stepped unarmed into the lions' den as it is. There's enough to go around.

angrysoba · 27th December 2012, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

I call troll, or idiot.. or both.

I wondered how long it would be before Janadele decided to go full-troll. Previously, he or she had just popped out faux-naif statements on other threads. I think most of them were ignored and probably it would be worth doing here as well.

I mean, "Janadele" could be some beer-guzzling Aussie sitting in his grundies laughing his arse off at the responses he gets.

RandFan · 27th December 2012, 10:06 PM

I don't find Janadele to be a troll. I'll concede I've not engaged with her until recently but, IMO, her behavior isn't trollish.

AdMan · 27th December 2012, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Discussions of actual LDS beliefs is fine... but posting nonsense as being LDS when it is not LDS is not. I do not respond to anti Mormon propaganda. This is my choice and my right. Insults, bullying, and rude demands will not influence nor change my decision to not engage in pointless arguments or discussion on material which is false, misleading garbage. Whereas I will respond to genuine questions or criticisms of actual LDS beliefs.

Janadele, maybe you can start by helping clear up some of these supposed absurdities--I am sure you know The Book of Mormon better than the authors of this site and can help enlighten both us and them:

Absurdity in the Book of Mormon

If you feel this is "false, miselading garbage," I and I am sure other members would appreciate some clarification as to why you think that is the case, as I believe many of these are direct quotes.

RandFan · 27th December 2012, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Discussions of actual LDS beliefs is fine... but posting nonsense as being LDS when it is not LDS is not. I do not respond to anti Mormon propaganda. This is my choice and my right. Insults, bullying, and rude demands will not influence nor change my decision to not engage in pointless arguments or discussion on material which is false, misleading garbage. Whereas I will respond to genuine questions or criticisms of actual LDS beliefs.

You can put people on ignore if you like. Just click on their user name and a drop down menu will appear with the option to put the person on ignore.

ShadowSot · 27th December 2012, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by AdMan

Janadele, maybe you can start by helping clear up some of these supposed absurdities--I am sure you know The Book of Mormon better than the authors of this site and can help enlighten both us and them:

Absurdity in the Book of Mormon

If you feel this is "false, miselading garbage," I and I am sure other members would appreciate some clarification as to why you think that is the case, as I believe many of these are direct quotes.

Based on past history, she will not address his at all. Either she will direct you to the LDS website or simply dismiss this as devil work.

I don't think she's a troll, just someone who has bought in full the story told by the Mormon Church.

Joey McGee · 27th December 2012, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Whereas I will respond to genuine questions or criticisms of actual LDS beliefs.

Then go on exmormon with your current handle, we'll watch from here.

Oooh way too easy to dodge the documentation he was convicted wasn't it. Whoosh. Yeah, "the devil did it" you're not engaged in the slightest.

AdMan · 27th December 2012, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by ShadowSot

Based on past history, she will not address his at all. Either she will direct you to the LDS website or simply dismiss this as devil work.

I don't think she's a troll, just someone who has bought in full the story told by the Mormon Church.

Interesting. I've heard of her posting at other skeptics' fora where apparently she has a history, but I don't know much more than that. I wonder what she's hoping to achieve.

Pup · 27th December 2012, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given. That does not mean eternal principles change. We will always be the same gender, which will always be the gender of our Spirit and our Intelligence also. These eternal truths do not change.

If someone names a behavior that's currently forbidden by God, apparently you have a way of knowing whether it's an unchanging eternal principle, or something that could be changed by revelation.

How does one know? What's the scriptural basis that one can use to separate things into those categories?

One can't rely on personal knowledge about God to answer that kind of question, because according to LDS beliefs, an individual can only receive guidance or revelation from God for what they have stewardship over, not for the entire church. So if an individual member says that God will never give a revelation changing X, all it takes is for the prophet to say, he just did, to trump the individual's opinion.

So if one can say what things could be changed with revelation, and what couldn't, there must be a scriptural basis to categorize them.

One of the main condemnations of homosexual behavior in the Bible is in Leviticus, the same book as the prohibitions against eating pork and numerous other things that have changed.

Janadele · 27th December 2012, 10:34 PM

Wake up Joey and AdMan. I have no interest in logging in to those sites

Dinwar · 27th December 2012, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

I do not respond to anti Mormon propaganda. This is my choice and my right.

True. It also defeats your purpose, however. After all, ignoring those statements you assume to be anti-Mormon propaganda merely tells us YOU think it's propaganda. It doesn't actually debunk the arguments.

Quote:

Insults, bullying, and rude demands will not influence nor change my decision to not engage in pointless arguments or discussion on material which is false, misleading garbage.

Apparently polite requests also get ignored. You've not yet responded to a single thing I've posted.

Quote:

Whereas I will respond to genuine questions or criticisms of actual LDS beliefs.

Demonstrably untrue. You've yet to respond to my genuine and polite questions and criticisms. I'm sorry, but that's the plane truth of the matter.

Quote:

Wake up Joey and AdMan. I have no interest in logging in to those sites

Why not? If they're propaganda you should be able to refute them easily.

AdMan · 27th December 2012, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Wake up Joey and AdMan. I have no interest in logging in to those sites

Why not? The site I linked to points out apparent absurdities in The Book of Mormon, which if you won't want to visit, a lot of other people will.

Why don't you want to visit the link? If you think they are spreading obvious lies about the LDS, couldn't they be easily debunked?

It seems to me like you are purposely closing your eyes to any criticism of your beliefs. Is that the case? Then why are you in a skeptics' forum?

Morrigan · 27th December 2012, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Wake up Joey and AdMan. I have no interest in logging in to those sites

Why did you have any interest in coming here?

RandFan · 27th December 2012, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by AdMan

Interesting. I've heard of her posting at other skeptics' fora where apparently she has a history, but I don't know much more than that. I wonder what she's hoping to achieve.

She probably believes that she is countering propaganda and lies. Folks, I was her. I spent two years debating with people trying to save them. Plus after my mission I spent many years trying counter lies and propaganda against Mormonism.

AdMan · 27th December 2012, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

She probably believes that she is countering propaganda and lies. Folks, I was her. I spent two years debating with people trying to save them. Plus after my mission I spent many years trying counter lies and propaganda against Mormonism.

Is this a mission that the church instills in you, or did you decide on it yourself? Just curious.

Joey McGee · 27th December 2012, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Wake up Joey and AdMan. I have no interest in logging in to those sites

a) you fail to address the documentation proving his conviction beyond claiming the devil did it.

b) You won't argue some of the experts in debunking your cult, but you will engage in apologia here? No, you're either a Poe or a coward.

Andrew Wiggin · 27th December 2012, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by ShadowSot

Based on past history, she will not address his at all. Either she will direct you to the LDS website or simply dismiss this as devil work.

I don't think she's a troll, just someone who has bought in full the CURRENT story told by the Mormon Church.

Fixed that for you. In discussing moronism with the mormons who come around to the door, my experience has been that they receive a very whitewashed version of their own history, and are poorly prepared to answer questions about the actual historic practices of their church beyond stating that whatever this year's version says is how it's always been, back to the very beginning of time. Janadele is not going to be able to discuss such things as the her religion's opinion of the subhuman nature of the african race, the ethics of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the plagiarism in the book of mormon, the frauds and crimes perpetrated by the founder, the planet where god lives, how many wives a man should take, or any other issue of her religion's history because all she's heard on those matters are lies and she's both ignorant of any proper history and unwilling to expose herself to information that might conflict with what she already 'knows'.

TLDR: Just another ignorant dogmatist.

RandFan · 27th December 2012, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by AdMan

Is this a mission that the church instills in you, or did you decide on it yourself? Just curious.

Oh, that's a great question. Well, there's no question that the church inculcates the idea of going on a mission. Parent's and peers put a lot of pressure to go. I've known people who went who didn't believe because to refuse to go would cause a lot of trouble. Some kids are promised college financial help if they go on missions. I went because I wanted to. I'm sure I wanted to in large part because of a lifetime of indoctrination. But I was a true believer and I was excited to go. When the Church changed the length of missions while I was out and I had the choice to go home after 18 months and I chose to say.

ShadowSot · 27th December 2012, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin

Fixed that for you. In discussing moronism with the mormons who come around to the door, my experience has been that they receive a very whitewashed version of their own history, and are poorly prepared to answer questions about the actual historic practices of their church beyond stating that whatever this year's version says is how it's always been, back to the very beginning of time. Janadele is not going to be able to discuss such things as the her religion's opinion of the subhuman nature of the african race, the ethics of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the plagiarism in the book of mormon, the frauds and crimes perpetrated by the founder, the planet where god lives, how many wives a man should take, or any other issue of her religion's history because all she's heard on those matters are lies and she's both ignorant of any proper history and unwilling to expose herself to information that might conflict with what she already 'knows'.

TLDR: Just another ignorant dogmatist.

Fair point, and well matches what I've seen of her posting style.
I'd further add she seems to enjoy the martyr position.

Janadele · 27th December 2012, 11:22 PM

Really ? Seems to me you are describing yourself.

Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin

Just another ignorant dogmatist.

ShadowSot · 27th December 2012, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Really ? Seems to me you are describing yourself.

Oh excellent debating technique, points off however as you've already used that line. Tell you what, next time make some insulting insinuations against his mother.

Janadele · 27th December 2012, 11:30 PM

No.

ShadowSot · 27th December 2012, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

No.

Oh come now, surely you can do something better than parrot facts and "I'm rubber, your glue, neener neener?"

Oh wait, there's the dismissing everything else as being the work of the devil.
See... that's just not going to work at all. You need to do something else.

Andrew Wiggin · 27th December 2012, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Really ? Seems to me you are describing yourself.

OK, you deserve a fair chance... Prove it. Say something that isn't ignorant, dogmatic, or both. Hint; the above wasn't it.

Andrew Wiggin · 28th December 2012, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by ShadowSot

Oh excellent debating technique, points off however as you've already used that line. Tell you what, next time make some insulting insinuations against his mother.

Good on you. That always works. I'll surely find god if reminded that my mother was a hamster and my father smelt of elderberries.

angrysoba · 28th December 2012, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

I don't find Janadele to be a troll. I'll concede I've not engaged with her until recently but, IMO, her behavior isn't trollish.

Yeah, you're probably right. I have debated with Jehovah's Witnesses who often say give the same "I refer you to the dogma of XYZ" as their answer to questions or arguments that are about the very dogma of XYZ.

Me: "How can I trust the accuracy of this Biblical source?"
JW: "Because the Bible tells us it is the Word of the Lord." etc...

Interestingly, the Mormon missionaries I meet here in Japan have never tried to overtly proselytize to me but have generally been friendly and polite. Is that because they are also asked to try to raise the image of the Church or could it be that most of them just happen to be nice people?

However, this kind of thing is the type of thing I am talking about:

Originally Posted by Janadele

Gender is an eternal characteristic. There is no negotiation on the gender of our Spirit. To abide by Eternal Law celibacy is the only option if for some genuine reason the gender of the Spirit is unknown.

Originally Posted by RandFan

To begin with, this is contradicted by biological evidence. There is a large body of work to support the idea that even if we have a spirit, we as individuals have contradictory perceptions.

Split brain with one half atheist and one half theist

What gender is the spirit of a hermaphrodite or a person with Klinefelter syndrome?

Originally Posted by Janadele

Rand, the previous post to which you refer is the answer.

Janadele · 28th December 2012, 02:20 AM

In that you are correct, it was not. But neither were the opposing posts.

As I consider my earlier previous posts were worthwhile, and you do not, then what is the point ?

Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin

OK, you deserve a fair chance... Prove it. Say something that isn't ignorant, dogmatic, or both. Hint; the above wasn't it.

Pixel42 · 28th December 2012, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

As I consider my earlier previous posts were worthwhile, and you do not, then what is the point ?

As far as I can see, there is no point to this thread.

The problem is that you're talking to people who think beliefs need to be justified, especially when they contradict established scientific fact as a lot of Mormon beliefs do.

If the only way you can justify your beliefs is to quote official LDS doctrine which simply asserts that they are true then there is no prospect of any kind of meaningful discussion with people whose own research has convinced them that that official doctrine is childish made up nonsense.

Janadele · 28th December 2012, 02:46 AM

No that is not the plain truth of the matter... fact is I would have to write a book to do so. Keep to one single topic at a time

Originally Posted by Dinwar

Apparently polite requests also get ignored. You've not yet responded to a single thing I've posted... I'm sorry, but that's the plane truth of the matter.

dafydd · 28th December 2012, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

The proof is within you.

Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created nor made. The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator.

The creation was twofold—first spiritual, secondly temporal.

The glory of God is intelligence. We were all at different stages of progression in our pre mortal existence, and of graded intelligences. The veil which cloaks our rememberances allows recognition of the truths we knew and also understanding of Eternal Laws... if we will listen.

Sanctimonious gibberish

Quote:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses?lang=eng

When I said proof, I meant real proof, not a work of fiction.

dafydd · 28th December 2012, 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Discussions of actual LDS beliefs is fine... but posting nonsense as being LDS when it is not LDS is not. I do not respond to anti Mormon propaganda. This is my choice and my right. Insults, bullying, and rude demands will not influence nor change my decision to not engage in pointless arguments or discussion on material which is false, misleading garbage. Whereas I will respond to genuine questions or criticisms of actual LDS beliefs.

Here is a genuine question. Do you believe that the Hindu gods exist? The Hindus have their holy books too.

Craig4 · 28th December 2012, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Discussions of actual LDS beliefs is fine... but posting nonsense as being LDS when it is not LDS is not. I do not respond to anti Mormon propaganda. This is my choice and my right. Insults, bullying, and rude demands will not influence nor change my decision to not engage in pointless arguments or discussion on material which is false, misleading garbage. Whereas I will respond to genuine questions or criticisms of actual LDS beliefs.

I don't understand. Everything you believe about your faith is a lie. How could pointing out those lies to you be off topic? You can't possibly expect that here, in this forum we would do anything else.

Or perhaps you'd care to prove that there was cultivated barely in pre-Columbian America.

Janadele · 28th December 2012, 04:05 AM

Actual LDS beliefs and teachings are not off topic... obviously.
Fabrications are.

Aepervius · 28th December 2012, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

I disagree. Anyone who follows the teaching of Christ, IMO, are free to all themselves Christian. We've debated this many times. I find it a bit of a no true Scotsman to accuse Mormons of not being Christians.

We can disagree though.

In fact most christian are "paulinist"

.

hud · 28th December 2012, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Bikewer,AdMan, JeanFromBNA, Hud: Regurgitated anti Mormon lies and misleading false propaganda is not on topic to an LDS thread.

Actually I asked a question more about politics than the religion, because I am mostly ignorant about LDS beliefs. You really could have answered it any way you wanted to. Not sure why you would label it "lies" or "propaganda."

Originally Posted by AdMan

Posting about the LDS and the obvious lies and nonsense it is spreading is on topic in a thread about Mormonism.

If you feel any posts are off topic, feel free to report them.

Otherwise, respond to the posts or admit you can't do it.

Mormonism is quite obviously made-up BS. Nobody who looks at this religion with a genuinely critical eye can conclude otherwise.

(bolding mine)

The OP was so vague and wide open it seemed to me that any questions related to Mormonism were welcome. Apparently that's not the case.

Joey McGee · 28th December 2012, 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Actual LDS beliefs and teachings are not off topic... obviously.
Fabrications are.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious that when it can be proved Smith fabricated the entire thing you consider that off-topic. You're one step away from spam here.

27th December 2012, 09:33 PM	#121
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,158	Originally Posted by Janadele Bikewer,AdMan, JeanFromBNA, Hud: Regurgitated anti Mormon lies and misleading false propaganda is not on topic to an LDS thread. Posting about the LDS and the obvious lies and nonsense it is spreading is on topic in a thread about Mormonism. If you feel any posts are off topic, feel free to report them. Otherwise, respond to the posts or admit you can't do it. Mormonism is quite obviously made-up BS. Nobody who looks at this religion with a genuinely critical eye can conclude otherwise.
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,158	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan Last edited by AdMan; 27th December 2012 at 09:34 PM.

27th December 2012, 09:38 PM	#122
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by Janadele Bikewer,AdMan, JeanFromBNA, Hud: Regurgitated anti Mormon lies and misleading false propaganda is not on topic to an LDS thread. Please be specific. What lies? I'm sorry Janadele but simply asserting that they are lies is fallacy. You are entitled to your beliefs and I'm perfectly happy to respect them. But this is a skeptics site. You should expect criticisms and arguments against Mormonism.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

27th December 2012, 09:57 PM	#123
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363	Originally Posted by Janadele Bikewer,AdMan, JeanFromBNA, Hud: Regurgitated anti Mormon lies and misleading false propaganda is not on topic to an LDS thread. How could pointing out to blatantly obvious and fraudulent nature of the belief system not be on topic?
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363

27th December 2012, 10:01 PM	#124
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	Discussions of actual LDS beliefs is fine... but posting nonsense as being LDS when it is not LDS is not. I do not respond to anti Mormon propaganda. This is my choice and my right. Insults, bullying, and rude demands will not influence nor change my decision to not engage in pointless arguments or discussion on material which is false, misleading garbage. Whereas I will respond to genuine questions or criticisms of actual LDS beliefs.
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

27th December 2012, 10:03 PM	#125
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 11,180	Originally Posted by AdMan Posting about the LDS and the obvious lies and nonsense it is spreading is on topic in a thread about Mormonism. If you feel any posts are off topic, feel free to report them. Otherwise, respond to the posts or admit you can't do it. Mormonism is quite obviously made-up BS. Nobody who looks at this religion with a genuinely critical eye can conclude otherwise. I don't think it's an issue of being on or off topic. The question is whether the named posters describe actual Mormon practices and beliefs, which Janadele says they do not. I imagine that if she is wrong about this it should not be hard to find some better references. I suspect, for example, that Bikewer's history is closer to fact than current believers would care to admit. But otherwise, since we are pretty well agreed that it is all made up BS, one need not embellish it. Janadele has stepped unarmed into the lions' den as it is. There's enough to go around.
	__________________ "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding.(Samuel Johnson) The gods are less for their love of praise....(Wendell Berry)

27th December 2012, 10:03 PM	#126
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,505	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken I call troll, or idiot.. or both. I wondered how long it would be before Janadele decided to go full-troll. Previously, he or she had just popped out faux-naif statements on other threads. I think most of them were ignored and probably it would be worth doing here as well. I mean, "Janadele" could be some beer-guzzling Aussie sitting in his grundies laughing his arse off at the responses he gets.

27th December 2012, 10:06 PM	#127
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	I don't find Janadele to be a troll. I'll concede I've not engaged with her until recently but, IMO, her behavior isn't trollish.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

27th December 2012, 10:06 PM	#128
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,158	Originally Posted by Janadele Discussions of actual LDS beliefs is fine... but posting nonsense as being LDS when it is not LDS is not. I do not respond to anti Mormon propaganda. This is my choice and my right. Insults, bullying, and rude demands will not influence nor change my decision to not engage in pointless arguments or discussion on material which is false, misleading garbage. Whereas I will respond to genuine questions or criticisms of actual LDS beliefs. Janadele, maybe you can start by helping clear up some of these supposed absurdities--I am sure you know The Book of Mormon better than the authors of this site and can help enlighten both us and them: Absurdity in the Book of Mormon If you feel this is "false, miselading garbage," I and I am sure other members would appreciate some clarification as to why you think that is the case, as I believe many of these are direct quotes.
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,158	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan Last edited by AdMan; 27th December 2012 at 10:20 PM.

27th December 2012, 10:08 PM	#129
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by Janadele Discussions of actual LDS beliefs is fine... but posting nonsense as being LDS when it is not LDS is not. I do not respond to anti Mormon propaganda. This is my choice and my right. Insults, bullying, and rude demands will not influence nor change my decision to not engage in pointless arguments or discussion on material which is false, misleading garbage. Whereas I will respond to genuine questions or criticisms of actual LDS beliefs. You can put people on ignore if you like. Just click on their user name and a drop down menu will appear with the option to put the person on ignore.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

27th December 2012, 10:22 PM	#130
ShadowSot Muse Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pensacola Posts: 769	Originally Posted by AdMan Janadele, maybe you can start by helping clear up some of these supposed absurdities--I am sure you know The Book of Mormon better than the authors of this site and can help enlighten both us and them: Absurdity in the Book of Mormon If you feel this is "false, miselading garbage," I and I am sure other members would appreciate some clarification as to why you think that is the case, as I believe many of these are direct quotes. Based on past history, she will not address his at all. Either she will direct you to the LDS website or simply dismiss this as devil work. I don't think she's a troll, just someone who has bought in full the story told by the Mormon Church.
	__________________ I love this crazy tragic, sometimes almost magic, awful beautiful life. - Darryl Worley The Stupid! It burns!

27th December 2012, 10:23 PM	#131
Joey McGee Transcendental Naturalist Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,105	Originally Posted by Janadele Whereas I will respond to genuine questions or criticisms of actual LDS beliefs. Then go on exmormon with your current handle, we'll watch from here. Oooh way too easy to dodge the documentation he was convicted wasn't it. Whoosh. Yeah, "the devil did it" you're not engaged in the slightest.
	__________________ How do I know that this is so? By looking! Last edited by Joey McGee; 27th December 2012 at 10:25 PM.

27th December 2012, 10:27 PM	#132
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,158	Originally Posted by ShadowSot Based on past history, she will not address his at all. Either she will direct you to the LDS website or simply dismiss this as devil work. I don't think she's a troll, just someone who has bought in full the story told by the Mormon Church. Interesting. I've heard of her posting at other skeptics' fora where apparently she has a history, but I don't know much more than that. I wonder what she's hoping to achieve.
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,158	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

27th December 2012, 10:28 PM	#133
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,586	Originally Posted by Janadele As we progress in our understanding more enlightenment is given. That does not mean eternal principles change. We will always be the same gender, which will always be the gender of our Spirit and our Intelligence also. These eternal truths do not change. If someone names a behavior that's currently forbidden by God, apparently you have a way of knowing whether it's an unchanging eternal principle, or something that could be changed by revelation. How does one know? What's the scriptural basis that one can use to separate things into those categories? One can't rely on personal knowledge about God to answer that kind of question, because according to LDS beliefs, an individual can only receive guidance or revelation from God for what they have stewardship over, not for the entire church. So if an individual member says that God will never give a revelation changing X, all it takes is for the prophet to say, he just did, to trump the individual's opinion. So if one can say what things could be changed with revelation, and what couldn't, there must be a scriptural basis to categorize them. One of the main condemnations of homosexual behavior in the Bible is in Leviticus, the same book as the prohibitions against eating pork and numerous other things that have changed.
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,586	Last edited by Pup; 27th December 2012 at 10:31 PM.

27th December 2012, 10:34 PM	#134
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	Wake up Joey and AdMan. I have no interest in logging in to those sites
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

27th December 2012, 10:41 PM	#135
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,896	Originally Posted by Janadele I do not respond to anti Mormon propaganda. This is my choice and my right. True. It also defeats your purpose, however. After all, ignoring those statements you assume to be anti-Mormon propaganda merely tells us YOU think it's propaganda. It doesn't actually debunk the arguments. Quote: Insults, bullying, and rude demands will not influence nor change my decision to not engage in pointless arguments or discussion on material which is false, misleading garbage. Apparently polite requests also get ignored. You've not yet responded to a single thing I've posted. Quote: Whereas I will respond to genuine questions or criticisms of actual LDS beliefs. Demonstrably untrue. You've yet to respond to my genuine and polite questions and criticisms. I'm sorry, but that's the plane truth of the matter. Quote: Wake up Joey and AdMan. I have no interest in logging in to those sites Why not? If they're propaganda you should be able to refute them easily.
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,896	__________________ GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. Ein krieg ohne feinde.

27th December 2012, 10:43 PM	#136
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,158	Originally Posted by Janadele Wake up Joey and AdMan. I have no interest in logging in to those sites Why not? The site I linked to points out apparent absurdities in The Book of Mormon, which if you won't want to visit, a lot of other people will. Why don't you want to visit the link? If you think they are spreading obvious lies about the LDS, couldn't they be easily debunked? It seems to me like you are purposely closing your eyes to any criticism of your beliefs. Is that the case? Then why are you in a skeptics' forum?
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,158	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

27th December 2012, 10:54 PM	#137
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,868	Originally Posted by Janadele Wake up Joey and AdMan. I have no interest in logging in to those sites Why did you have any interest in coming here?
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,868	__________________ curi0us: "Many kids grow up in environments where if the worse thing they had to deal with was a pervy gym teacher wanting to **** them they would considere themselves to be privileged and living the good life."

27th December 2012, 11:04 PM	#138
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by AdMan Interesting. I've heard of her posting at other skeptics' fora where apparently she has a history, but I don't know much more than that. I wonder what she's hoping to achieve. She probably believes that she is countering propaganda and lies. Folks, I was her. I spent two years debating with people trying to save them. Plus after my mission I spent many years trying counter lies and propaganda against Mormonism.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

27th December 2012, 11:07 PM	#139
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,158	Originally Posted by RandFan She probably believes that she is countering propaganda and lies. Folks, I was her. I spent two years debating with people trying to save them. Plus after my mission I spent many years trying counter lies and propaganda against Mormonism. Is this a mission that the church instills in you, or did you decide on it yourself? Just curious.
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,158	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

27th December 2012, 11:11 PM	#140
Joey McGee Transcendental Naturalist Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,105	Originally Posted by Janadele Wake up Joey and AdMan. I have no interest in logging in to those sites a) you fail to address the documentation proving his conviction beyond claiming the devil did it. b) You won't argue some of the experts in debunking your cult, but you will engage in apologia here? No, you're either a Poe or a coward.
	__________________ How do I know that this is so? By looking!

27th December 2012, 11:14 PM	#141
Andrew Wiggin Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: A small planet named for its dirt. You'll find it filed under 'mostly harmless' Posts: 2,914	Originally Posted by ShadowSot Based on past history, she will not address his at all. Either she will direct you to the LDS website or simply dismiss this as devil work. I don't think she's a troll, just someone who has bought in full the CURRENT story told by the Mormon Church. Fixed that for you. In discussing moronism with the mormons who come around to the door, my experience has been that they receive a very whitewashed version of their own history, and are poorly prepared to answer questions about the actual historic practices of their church beyond stating that whatever this year's version says is how it's always been, back to the very beginning of time. Janadele is not going to be able to discuss such things as the her religion's opinion of the subhuman nature of the african race, the ethics of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the plagiarism in the book of mormon, the frauds and crimes perpetrated by the founder, the planet where god lives, how many wives a man should take, or any other issue of her religion's history because all she's heard on those matters are lies and she's both ignorant of any proper history and unwilling to expose herself to information that might conflict with what she already 'knows'. TLDR: Just another ignorant dogmatist.
	__________________ "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells

27th December 2012, 11:17 PM	#142
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by AdMan Is this a mission that the church instills in you, or did you decide on it yourself? Just curious. Oh, that's a great question. Well, there's no question that the church inculcates the idea of going on a mission. Parent's and peers put a lot of pressure to go. I've known people who went who didn't believe because to refuse to go would cause a lot of trouble. Some kids are promised college financial help if they go on missions. I went because I wanted to. I'm sure I wanted to in large part because of a lifetime of indoctrination. But I was a true believer and I was excited to go. When the Church changed the length of missions while I was out and I had the choice to go home after 18 months and I chose to say.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

27th December 2012, 11:18 PM	#143
ShadowSot Muse Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pensacola Posts: 769	Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin Fixed that for you. In discussing moronism with the mormons who come around to the door, my experience has been that they receive a very whitewashed version of their own history, and are poorly prepared to answer questions about the actual historic practices of their church beyond stating that whatever this year's version says is how it's always been, back to the very beginning of time. Janadele is not going to be able to discuss such things as the her religion's opinion of the subhuman nature of the african race, the ethics of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the plagiarism in the book of mormon, the frauds and crimes perpetrated by the founder, the planet where god lives, how many wives a man should take, or any other issue of her religion's history because all she's heard on those matters are lies and she's both ignorant of any proper history and unwilling to expose herself to information that might conflict with what she already 'knows'. TLDR: Just another ignorant dogmatist. Fair point, and well matches what I've seen of her posting style. I'd further add she seems to enjoy the martyr position.
	__________________ I love this crazy tragic, sometimes almost magic, awful beautiful life. - Darryl Worley The Stupid! It burns!

27th December 2012, 11:22 PM	#144
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	Really ? Seems to me you are describing yourself. Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin Just another ignorant dogmatist.
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

27th December 2012, 11:29 PM	#145
ShadowSot Muse Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pensacola Posts: 769	Originally Posted by Janadele Really ? Seems to me you are describing yourself. Oh excellent debating technique, points off however as you've already used that line. Tell you what, next time make some insulting insinuations against his mother.
	__________________ I love this crazy tragic, sometimes almost magic, awful beautiful life. - Darryl Worley The Stupid! It burns!

27th December 2012, 11:30 PM	#146
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	No.
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

27th December 2012, 11:39 PM	#147
ShadowSot Muse Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pensacola Posts: 769	Originally Posted by Janadele No. Oh come now, surely you can do something better than parrot facts and "I'm rubber, your glue, neener neener?" Oh wait, there's the dismissing everything else as being the work of the devil. See... that's just not going to work at all. You need to do something else.
	__________________ I love this crazy tragic, sometimes almost magic, awful beautiful life. - Darryl Worley The Stupid! It burns!

27th December 2012, 11:56 PM	#148
Andrew Wiggin Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: A small planet named for its dirt. You'll find it filed under 'mostly harmless' Posts: 2,914	Originally Posted by Janadele Really ? Seems to me you are describing yourself. OK, you deserve a fair chance... Prove it. Say something that isn't ignorant, dogmatic, or both. Hint; the above wasn't it.
	__________________ "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells

28th December 2012, 12:01 AM	#149
Andrew Wiggin Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: A small planet named for its dirt. You'll find it filed under 'mostly harmless' Posts: 2,914	Originally Posted by ShadowSot Oh excellent debating technique, points off however as you've already used that line. Tell you what, next time make some insulting insinuations against his mother. Good on you. That always works. I'll surely find god if reminded that my mother was a hamster and my father smelt of elderberries.
	__________________ "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells

28th December 2012, 12:02 AM	#150
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,505	Originally Posted by RandFan I don't find Janadele to be a troll. I'll concede I've not engaged with her until recently but, IMO, her behavior isn't trollish. Yeah, you're probably right. I have debated with Jehovah's Witnesses who often say give the same "I refer you to the dogma of XYZ" as their answer to questions or arguments that are about the very dogma of XYZ. Me: "How can I trust the accuracy of this Biblical source?" JW: "Because the Bible tells us it is the Word of the Lord." etc... Interestingly, the Mormon missionaries I meet here in Japan have never tried to overtly proselytize to me but have generally been friendly and polite. Is that because they are also asked to try to raise the image of the Church or could it be that most of them just happen to be nice people? However, this kind of thing is the type of thing I am talking about: Originally Posted by Janadele Gender is an eternal characteristic. There is no negotiation on the gender of our Spirit. To abide by Eternal Law celibacy is the only option if for some genuine reason the gender of the Spirit is unknown. Originally Posted by RandFan To begin with, this is contradicted by biological evidence. There is a large body of work to support the idea that even if we have a spirit, we as individuals have contradictory perceptions. Split brain with one half atheist and one half theist What gender is the spirit of a hermaphrodite or a person with Klinefelter syndrome? Originally Posted by Janadele Rand, the previous post to which you refer is the answer.

28th December 2012, 02:20 AM	#151
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	In that you are correct, it was not. But neither were the opposing posts. As I consider my earlier previous posts were worthwhile, and you do not, then what is the point ? Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin OK, you deserve a fair chance... Prove it. Say something that isn't ignorant, dogmatic, or both. Hint; the above wasn't it.
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

28th December 2012, 02:46 AM	#152
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 4,218	Originally Posted by Janadele As I consider my earlier previous posts were worthwhile, and you do not, then what is the point ? As far as I can see, there is no point to this thread. The problem is that you're talking to people who think beliefs need to be justified, especially when they contradict established scientific fact as a lot of Mormon beliefs do. If the only way you can justify your beliefs is to quote official LDS doctrine which simply asserts that they are true then there is no prospect of any kind of meaningful discussion with people whose own research has convinced them that that official doctrine is childish made up nonsense.
	__________________ "The correct scientific response to anything that is not understood is always to look harder for the explanation, not give up and assume a supernatural cause". David Attenborough. Last edited by Pixel42; 28th December 2012 at 02:48 AM.

28th December 2012, 02:46 AM	#153
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	No that is not the plain truth of the matter... fact is I would have to write a book to do so. Keep to one single topic at a time Originally Posted by Dinwar Apparently polite requests also get ignored. You've not yet responded to a single thing I've posted... I'm sorry, but that's the plane truth of the matter.
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

28th December 2012, 03:15 AM	#154
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,443	Originally Posted by Janadele The proof is within you. Intelligence, or the light of truth was not created nor made. The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning. One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator. The creation was twofold—first spiritual, secondly temporal. The glory of God is intelligence. We were all at different stages of progression in our pre mortal existence, and of graded intelligences. The veil which cloaks our rememberances allows recognition of the truths we knew and also understanding of Eternal Laws... if we will listen. Sanctimonious gibberish Quote: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses?lang=eng When I said proof, I meant real proof, not a work of fiction.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

28th December 2012, 03:18 AM	#155
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,443	Originally Posted by Janadele Discussions of actual LDS beliefs is fine... but posting nonsense as being LDS when it is not LDS is not. I do not respond to anti Mormon propaganda. This is my choice and my right. Insults, bullying, and rude demands will not influence nor change my decision to not engage in pointless arguments or discussion on material which is false, misleading garbage. Whereas I will respond to genuine questions or criticisms of actual LDS beliefs. Here is a genuine question. Do you believe that the Hindu gods exist? The Hindus have their holy books too.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.