LDS - Page 7

DragonLady · 28th December 2012, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Baptism by authority on this earth, either preferably in person while in mortality, or by proxy when deceased, is a requisite to enable progression in the eternities.

Baptism by authority is a requirement for every mortal who has ever lived on this earth... otherwise their progression is restricted and they cannot inherit eternal salvation.

What about those who did not wish to be Mormon? Do you have some kind of notion that everyone changes their minds after they die? Or do you think there are those who will NEVER convert, and that being baptised by proxy might be a genuine insult?

halleyscomet · 28th December 2012, 01:12 PM

2 Nephi 14:1 And in that day, seven women shall take hold of one man, saying: We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel; only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach.

My wife didn't take my last name when we married. Does this make our marriage invalid or taint it with reproach?

If I have a concubine, will our children still be bastards if she takes my name? (I'm kinda working on this, so it's an important question)

DragonLady · 28th December 2012, 01:17 PM

The Mormons are the ones where the women have the secret names, aren't they? A guy marries a dozen women, but when he dies he only calls one out of her grave. So they all break their spines making him happy while he's alive.....

Yeah.... Nice.

And "pure" too....

Janadele · 28th December 2012, 01:18 PM

Even in the after life free agency allows the person to accept or reject the Eternal Gospel. Baptism by proxy is of no effect if the individual does not accept the ordinance.

Originally Posted by DragonLady

What about those who did not wish to be Mormon? Do you have some kind of notion that everyone changes their minds after they die? Or do you think there are those who will NEVER convert, and that being baptised by proxy might be a genuine insult?

Shalamar · 28th December 2012, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

It violates parsimony and makes a claim that cannot be verified.

When I was on my mission we had a prospective member who told us that she was visited by Jesus and told that the Mormon Church was of the Devil and to stop meeting with us. She was very upset and sorry.

Such claims can be explained though human psychology. There isn't a single major religion on earth that doesn't have millions of such anecdotes.

Jesus told me that I am the newest prophet, and that everyone should follow me or burn in a lake of fire forever.

And that you should all tithe me a mere 5% of your earnings. It's a savings!

Shalamar · 28th December 2012, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Even in the after life free agency allows the person to accept or reject the Eternal Gospel. Baptism by proxy is of no effect if the individual does not accept the ordinance.

Why do you follow a religion that preaches hatred and intolerance?

RandFan · 28th December 2012, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by ShadowSot

I posit the possibility her son made the claim to put her at ease about her husband's afterlife.

A prosaic answer is always more parsimonious than a supernatural one.

RandFan · 28th December 2012, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by DragonLady

The Mormons are the ones where the women have the secret names, aren't they? A guy marries a dozen women, but when he dies he only calls one out of her grave. So they all break their spines making him happy while he's alive.....

Yeah.... Nice.

And "pure" too....

Everyone has a "secret" name. It's part of the Masonic ritual Joseph adopted for his temple ritual.

Kinda funny that god is so bereft of imagination that he had to borrow from the Masons.

godless dave · 28th December 2012, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Even in the after life free agency allows the person to accept or reject the Eternal Gospel. Baptism by proxy is of no effect if the individual does not accept the ordinance.

So then why have baptism by proxy at all?

halleyscomet · 28th December 2012, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by DragonLady

The Mormons are the ones where the women have the secret names, aren't they? A guy marries a dozen women, but when he dies he only calls one out of her grave. So they all break their spines making him happy while he's alive.....

Yeah.... Nice.

And "pure" too....

I was under the impression that all of a man's wives remain bound to him in the afterlife. I'd hate to woo a concubine, have children with her and include them among the multitudes populating my own planet only to have her excluded from what I build. That would just be heartless.

Quote:

1 Nephi 21:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; they shall be drunken with their own blood as with sweet wine; and all flesh shall know that I, the Lord, am thy Savior and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

Aaaand it looks like God is on board with being heartless.

Quote:

Alma 12:17 Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will.

WOAH! Wait a minute! I thought Mormons didn't have a Hell. What gives?

Janadele,

It's clear that the Book of Mormon describes Hell. How come there's a myth that Mormons don't believe in Hell when it's RIGHT THERE IN THE BOOK OF MORMON?!?

Pup · 28th December 2012, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

You are blessed with such a wife. My best wishes to her.

Thanks, yeah, I know that.

But, um, that's it? I asked what I thought was an intelligent, reasonable question, well within LDS doctrine, and was hoping for more discussion.

Originally Posted by halleyscomet

It's clear that the Book of Mormon describes Hell. How come there's a myth that Mormons don't believe in Hell when it's RIGHT THERE IN THE BOOK OF MORMON?!?

Never knew there was such a myth. Mormons believe in different layers of heaven/hell, with the worst, the one that fits most religions' definition of hell, being Outer Darkness. Google it to learn more. Most people aren't even potentially eligible for there, so I suppose it's not brought up much, which is maybe how such a myth could get started.

Janadele · 28th December 2012, 01:54 PM

Haley,
Only marriages sealed by authority in an LDS Temple are for eternity, and then only if the participants keep their covenants.

As for mortality, a marriage is legal if recognised as such in your place of residence. Merely taking a name will not legitimise your children.

Regarding your quoted Scripture:
This is referencing the last days when marriageable men will be scarce, and polygamy will most probably be legally introduced in order for women to be able to marry and bear children within a legally protected family environment.

Originally Posted by halleyscomet

2 Nephi 14:1 And in that day, seven women shall take hold of one man, saying: We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel; only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach.

My wife didn't take my last name when we married. Does this make our marriage invalid or taint it with reproach?

If I have a concubine, will our children still be bastards if she takes my name? (I'm kinda working on this, so it's an important question)

DragonLady · 28th December 2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

This is referencing the last days when marriageable men will be scarce

Why will they be scarce?

hud · 28th December 2012, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Everyone has a "secret" name. It's part of the Masonic ritual Joseph adopted for his temple ritual.

Kinda funny that god is so bereft of imagination that he had to borrow from the Masons.

Great, now I have to question my Masonic membership.....

Thanks for the link/info though. I learn something new every day on this forum.

Janadele · 28th December 2012, 02:13 PM

There would be few foolish enough to reject the saving ordinance of Baptism. Most deceased mortals are waiting anxiously for their families to do this work for them... which they neglected to do for themselves during their mortal lifetime.

But as in all things our Heavenly Father allows His children to choose for themselves, and take the consequences of their actions.

Originally Posted by godless dave

So then why have baptism by proxy at all?

RandFan · 28th December 2012, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Pup

Never knew there was such a myth. Mormons believe in different layers of heaven/hell, with the worst, the one that fits most religions' definition of hell, being Outer Darkness. Google it to learn more. Most people aren't even potentially eligible for there, so I suppose it's not brought up much, which is maybe how such a myth could get started.

The Mormon Church doesn't have an in-depth equivalent of the Catholic Catechism. From my understanding, Mormon beliefs loosely fall into 3 basic categories. Official church doctrine, member beliefs, academic apologetics.

The Mormon Church typically does not try very hard (if at all) to disabuse the members of beliefs like mother god, blood doctrine and thousands of urban legends and myths. The Church has never, AFAIK, announced to the membership formally that the Blood atonement (not to be confused with the atonement of Christ), Adam-god doctrine, etc, are not official doctrine.

Also, the Mormon Church refers members to the apologetics of academics like BYU professors and organizations like FAIR and FARMS. The Church does not necassarily hold that these apologetics are official doctrine.

See the following article that was written by a Mormon apologist. Mormon Doctrine, What’s Official, And What Isn’t?

RandFan · 28th December 2012, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

But as in all things our Heavenly Father allows His children to choose for themselves, and take the consequences of their actions.

Demonstrate that your god exists?

jsfisher · 28th December 2012, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

There would be few foolish enough to reject the saving ordinance of Baptism. Most deceased mortals are waiting anxiously for their families to do this work for them... which they neglected to do for themselves during their mortal lifetime.

But as in all things our Heavenly Father allows His children to choose for themselves, and take the consequences of their actions.

This is certainly your belief, I understand that part, but is there evidence for it? Is it stated somewhere in the Book of Mormon, or is it something you were taught by the Church, or is it something you have come to believe on your own. I am genuinely curious as to the basis for your belief.

Janadele · 28th December 2012, 02:22 PM

Wars... rioting, violence and destruction. Where evil mankind destroys themselves, and their victims... including the innocent and the environment.

Originally Posted by DragonLady

Why will they be scarce?

RandFan · 28th December 2012, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Wars... rioting, violence and destruction. Where evil mankind destroys themselves, and their victims... including the innocent and the environment.

Mormon Eschatology is basically Christian in nature with a few interesting twists that include Christ coming back to America.

DragonLady · 28th December 2012, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Wars... rioting, violence and destruction. Where evil mankind destroys themselves, and their victims... including the innocent and the environment.

Those things have been going on since the dawn of humankind. Yet, very few regions have seen men become so scarce they began taking extra wives.

So, what, specifically do you believe will happen to so decimate the population that will become necessary, and when?

jhunter1163 · 28th December 2012, 02:50 PM

Do not import arguments from other forums.

Posted By:jhunter1163

DragonLady · 28th December 2012, 02:53 PM

From Randfan's link:

Quote:

but that this is not the souls final resting place. They believe that all the people of the earth will be resurrected and receive their physical body again

Doesn't that mean those hermaphrodites and transgendered individuals have their old problems handed right back to them?

The Greater Fool · 28th December 2012, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Even in the after life free agency allows the person to accept or reject the Eternal Gospel. Baptism by proxy is of no effect if the individual does not accept the ordinance.

This is GREAT news, indeed!

I can wait until after I die, see which is the ONE TRUE religion, then come back to a member of that religion and join postumously.

I mean, who wouldn't?

MIKILLINI · 28th December 2012, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Wake up Joey and AdMan. I have no interest in logging in to those sites

Proof of how closed minded you've become. When things get narrowed down, the open mind to debate narrows down as well. Can you see this?

hud · 28th December 2012, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by The Greater Fool

This is GREAT news, indeed!

I can wait until after I die, see which is the ONE TRUE religion, then come back to a member of that religion and join postumously.

I mean, who wouldn't?

Indeed, I may put this in my will. Pascal's Wager and all

Janadele · 28th December 2012, 04:50 PM

https://www.lds.org/topics/baptisms-...-dead?lang=eng

The Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith sublime doctrine concerning the sacred ordinance of baptism. The Lord’s revelation that through proper priesthood authority, baptism could be performed vicariously for the dead preserved the justice of His statement:
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Vicarious baptism can mercifully provide this essential ordinance for all worthy deceased who did not receive it in mortality.
This glorious doctrine is another witness of the all-encompassing nature of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He made salvation available to every repentant soul. His Atonement conquered death, and He permits the worthy deceased to receive all ordinances of salvation vicariously.

https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...-dead?lang=eng

Originally Posted by jsfisher

This is certainly your belief, I understand that part, but is there evidence for it? Is it stated somewhere in the Book of Mormon, or is it something you were taught by the Church, or is it something you have come to believe on your own. I am genuinely curious as to the basis for your belief.

Resume · 28th December 2012, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Wars... rioting, violence and destruction. Where evil mankind destroys themselves, and their victims... including the innocent and the environment.

Cats and dogs sleeping together?

RandFan · 28th December 2012, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by Resume

Cats and dogs sleeping together?

We are talking Biblical proportions.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

RandFan · 28th December 2012, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

..........

Got nothing? 's okay.

jsfisher · 28th December 2012, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

https://www.lds.org/topics/baptisms-...-dead?lang=eng

The Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith sublime doctrine concerning the sacred ordinance of baptism. The Lord’s revelation that through proper priesthood authority, baptism could be performed vicariously for the dead preserved the justice of His statement:
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Vicarious baptism can mercifully provide this essential ordinance for all worthy deceased who did not receive it in mortality.
This glorious doctrine is another witness of the all-encompassing nature of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He made salvation available to every repentant soul. His Atonement conquered death, and He permits the worthy deceased to receive all ordinances of salvation vicariously.

https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...-dead?lang=eng

Yes, I understood that. I asked you a different question, though. I was asking specifically for the basis of this statement:

Quote:

Most deceased mortals are waiting anxiously for their families to do this work for them

Mine was not a question of how or whether, but of how many.

RandFan · 28th December 2012, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

This glorious doctrine is another witness of the all-encompassing nature of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He made salvation available to every repentant soul.

One would think an omnipotent being could just forgive people without the gory human sacrifice.

Janadele · 28th December 2012, 06:29 PM

I have not served an official LDS mission, but three of my sons have... one in New Zealand, one in Queensland Australia, one in Colorado, United States of America.

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Janadele,

Have you ever done missionary work? Just curious.

If so, would you like to tell us where?

Thanks

abaddon · 28th December 2012, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by CORed

Sockpuppet of Robert Prey?

No, but a former member always put their response before the qoute, and inserted spaces before the question marks. Just sayin'.

Ambrosia · 28th December 2012, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Baptism by authority is a requirement for every mortal who has ever lived on this earth... otherwise their progression is restricted and they cannot inherit eternal salvation.

Originally Posted by Janadele

https://www.lds.org/topics/baptisms-...-dead?lang=eng

The Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith sublime doctrine concerning the sacred ordinance of baptism. The Lord’s revelation that through proper priesthood authority, baptism could be performed vicariously for the dead preserved the justice of His statement:
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

Janadele. this in a nutshell neatly sums up why I don't agree with the teachings of the book of Mormon. Or Christian theology in general.

The teachings of any particular subset of Christian involves believing in and adhering to a persons interpretation of "Gods word"

Looking at the quote above which is John 3:5. This is the retelling of a conversation Jesus had with a man called Nicodemus. Nicodemus asks about the mechanics of being 'born again' "how can someone be born again, they cannot re-enter their mothers womb?"

We can interpret John 3:5 (which is the only time a requirement to be born of water is mentioned) in lots of different ways. The bible doesn't explain this. Inside the womb a child grows inside a sac of fluid, it's reasonable to interpret John 3:5 as referring to a natural birth. There are several other equally plausible interpretations of this text.

LDS teachings refer to yet another book of the bible, the book of Mormon. As well as later teachings from "the prophet" and from those you hold the belief that a person cannot progress in eternal life in heaven without being physically baptised in water.

That is at odds with many verses of the bible e.g. Romans 6:23, Romans 10:9 Ephesians 2:8-9 which state that anyone who accepts Jesus as their saviour gets eternal life and salvation, nothing else required, no works, no rituals to complete.

So which is right? What version is the truth, and why so many conflicting versions?

The bible is a document written after the fact. It was written in an older language and has been translated and re-translated many times in it's history. Language has many quirks and idiosyncrasies which can subtly change the meaning of the words, often in ways that a translator that is not sufficiently fluent in both can miss.

On top of those potential errors, preachers from different churches will then impart their own interpretation of what is written and over time that causes whole different branches of the church to emerge.

[that phenomenon mirrors evolution so closely it's a interesting debate all by itself]

Which brings me to my question. Why do you believe in the teachings of the Mormon church and reject those of other Christian churches?

What makes the words of the 'prophets' you follow so special and how do you rationalise the revisionism that continues in the teachings of the LDS church?

In your case why do you believe that the LDS church is the right one, and the Anglican church you grew up with, is the wrong church?

To be more specific how do you rationalise

Originally Posted by Janadele

Baptism by authority is a requirement for every mortal who has ever lived on this earth... otherwise their progression is restricted and they cannot inherit eternal salvation.

with

Originally Posted by Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV

⁸ For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ⁹ not by works, so that no one can boast.

Craig4 · 28th December 2012, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

My late husband never joined, nor did he give his permission for me to be baptised. However he did not stop me from attending nor raising our six children LDS. One of our sons was on his mission in Colorado when his late father appeared to him and his companion and asked to be baptised. There was great excitement in the mission, and my son was baptised as proxy for his father in the Denver Temple.

I don't believe you.

Craig4 · 28th December 2012, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

https://www.lds.org/topics/baptisms-...-dead?lang=eng

The Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith sublime doctrine concerning the sacred ordinance of baptism. The Lord’s revelation that through proper priesthood authority, baptism could be performed vicariously for the dead preserved the justice of His statement:
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Vicarious baptism can mercifully provide this essential ordinance for all worthy deceased who did not receive it in mortality.
This glorious doctrine is another witness of the all-encompassing nature of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He made salvation available to every repentant soul. His Atonement conquered death, and He permits the worthy deceased to receive all ordinances of salvation vicariously.

https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...-dead?lang=eng

Or, Smith made the whole thing up.

Craig4 · 28th December 2012, 09:22 PM

Seriously though, what is it you wish to accomplish here? It cannot possibly be to convince of the truth of your beliefs. If that's your goal you've done nothing productive toward it. Spewing the silly, and blatant dishonesty of the frauds and charlatans who started your church isn't likely going to sway people on a skeptic's forum. Is this perhaps some twisted revenge fantasy you have to spew the sick rantings of your church and then sit back smugly and know we're going to some sort of hell because we rejected the drivel that constitutes your faith?

kerikiwi · 28th December 2012, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Baptism by authority on this earth, either preferably in person while in mortality, or by proxy when deceased, is a requisite to enable progression in the eternities.

Baptism by authority is a requirement for every mortal who has ever lived on this earth... otherwise their progression is restricted and they cannot inherit eternal salvation.

How do you know?

Janadele · 28th December 2012, 10:41 PM

KiriKiwi,
That is the eternal question which has been answered time and time again

If you read my previous posts the answer is there.

28th December 2012, 01:11 PM	#241
DragonLady Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Under the Starry, Starry Night Posts: 1,828	Quote: Baptism by authority on this earth, either preferably in person while in mortality, or by proxy when deceased, is a requisite to enable progression in the eternities. Baptism by authority is a requirement for every mortal who has ever lived on this earth... otherwise their progression is restricted and they cannot inherit eternal salvation. What about those who did not wish to be Mormon? Do you have some kind of notion that everyone changes their minds after they die? Or do you think there are those who will NEVER convert, and that being baptised by proxy might be a genuine insult?
	__________________ It's NOT denial. I'm just very selective about the reality I accept. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes) The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One

28th December 2012, 01:17 PM	#243
DragonLady Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Under the Starry, Starry Night Posts: 1,828	The Mormons are the ones where the women have the secret names, aren't they? A guy marries a dozen women, but when he dies he only calls one out of her grave. So they all break their spines making him happy while he's alive..... Yeah.... Nice. And "pure" too....
	__________________ It's NOT denial. I'm just very selective about the reality I accept. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes) The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One

28th December 2012, 01:18 PM	#244
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	Even in the after life free agency allows the person to accept or reject the Eternal Gospel. Baptism by proxy is of no effect if the individual does not accept the ordinance. Originally Posted by DragonLady What about those who did not wish to be Mormon? Do you have some kind of notion that everyone changes their minds after they die? Or do you think there are those who will NEVER convert, and that being baptised by proxy might be a genuine insult?
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

28th December 2012, 01:18 PM	#245
Shalamar Dark Lord of the JREF Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Super Star Destroyer Executor Posts: 2,396	Originally Posted by RandFan It violates parsimony and makes a claim that cannot be verified. When I was on my mission we had a prospective member who told us that she was visited by Jesus and told that the Mormon Church was of the Devil and to stop meeting with us. She was very upset and sorry. Such claims can be explained though human psychology. There isn't a single major religion on earth that doesn't have millions of such anecdotes. Jesus told me that I am the newest prophet, and that everyone should follow me or burn in a lake of fire forever. And that you should all tithe me a mere 5% of your earnings. It's a savings!
	__________________ "The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."

28th December 2012, 01:19 PM	#246
Shalamar Dark Lord of the JREF Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Super Star Destroyer Executor Posts: 2,396	Originally Posted by Janadele Even in the after life free agency allows the person to accept or reject the Eternal Gospel. Baptism by proxy is of no effect if the individual does not accept the ordinance. Why do you follow a religion that preaches hatred and intolerance?
	__________________ "The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."

28th December 2012, 01:12 PM	#242
halleyscomet Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 399	2 Nephi 14:1 And in that day, seven women shall take hold of one man, saying: We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel; only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach. My wife didn't take my last name when we married. Does this make our marriage invalid or taint it with reproach? If I have a concubine, will our children still be bastards if she takes my name? (I'm kinda working on this, so it's an important question)

28th December 2012, 01:19 PM	#247
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by ShadowSot I posit the possibility her son made the claim to put her at ease about her husband's afterlife. A prosaic answer is always more parsimonious than a supernatural one.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

28th December 2012, 01:22 PM	#248
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by DragonLady The Mormons are the ones where the women have the secret names, aren't they? A guy marries a dozen women, but when he dies he only calls one out of her grave. So they all break their spines making him happy while he's alive..... Yeah.... Nice. And "pure" too.... Everyone has a "secret" name. It's part of the Masonic ritual Joseph adopted for his temple ritual. Kinda funny that god is so bereft of imagination that he had to borrow from the Masons.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

28th December 2012, 01:23 PM	#249
godless dave Great Dalmuti Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,122	Originally Posted by Janadele Even in the after life free agency allows the person to accept or reject the Eternal Gospel. Baptism by proxy is of no effect if the individual does not accept the ordinance. So then why have baptism by proxy at all?
	__________________ "If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm

28th December 2012, 01:27 PM	#250
halleyscomet Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 399	Originally Posted by DragonLady The Mormons are the ones where the women have the secret names, aren't they? A guy marries a dozen women, but when he dies he only calls one out of her grave. So they all break their spines making him happy while he's alive..... Yeah.... Nice. And "pure" too.... I was under the impression that all of a man's wives remain bound to him in the afterlife. I'd hate to woo a concubine, have children with her and include them among the multitudes populating my own planet only to have her excluded from what I build. That would just be heartless. Quote: 1 Nephi 21:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; they shall be drunken with their own blood as with sweet wine; and all flesh shall know that I, the Lord, am thy Savior and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob. Aaaand it looks like God is on board with being heartless. Quote: Alma 12:17 Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will. WOAH! Wait a minute! I thought Mormons didn't have a Hell. What gives? Janadele, It's clear that the Book of Mormon describes Hell. How come there's a myth that Mormons don't believe in Hell when it's RIGHT THERE IN THE BOOK OF MORMON?!?

28th December 2012, 01:47 PM	#251
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,586	Originally Posted by Janadele You are blessed with such a wife. My best wishes to her. Thanks, yeah, I know that. But, um, that's it? I asked what I thought was an intelligent, reasonable question, well within LDS doctrine, and was hoping for more discussion. Originally Posted by halleyscomet It's clear that the Book of Mormon describes Hell. How come there's a myth that Mormons don't believe in Hell when it's RIGHT THERE IN THE BOOK OF MORMON?!? Never knew there was such a myth. Mormons believe in different layers of heaven/hell, with the worst, the one that fits most religions' definition of hell, being Outer Darkness. Google it to learn more. Most people aren't even potentially eligible for there, so I suppose it's not brought up much, which is maybe how such a myth could get started.
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,586

28th December 2012, 01:54 PM	#252
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	Haley, Only marriages sealed by authority in an LDS Temple are for eternity, and then only if the participants keep their covenants. As for mortality, a marriage is legal if recognised as such in your place of residence. Merely taking a name will not legitimise your children. Regarding your quoted Scripture: This is referencing the last days when marriageable men will be scarce, and polygamy will most probably be legally introduced in order for women to be able to marry and bear children within a legally protected family environment. Originally Posted by halleyscomet 2 Nephi 14:1 And in that day, seven women shall take hold of one man, saying: We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel; only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach. My wife didn't take my last name when we married. Does this make our marriage invalid or taint it with reproach? If I have a concubine, will our children still be bastards if she takes my name? (I'm kinda working on this, so it's an important question)
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

28th December 2012, 01:56 PM	#253
DragonLady Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Under the Starry, Starry Night Posts: 1,828	Quote: This is referencing the last days when marriageable men will be scarce Why will they be scarce?
	__________________ It's NOT denial. I'm just very selective about the reality I accept. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes) The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One

28th December 2012, 02:11 PM	#254
hud Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 440	Originally Posted by RandFan Everyone has a "secret" name. It's part of the Masonic ritual Joseph adopted for his temple ritual. Kinda funny that god is so bereft of imagination that he had to borrow from the Masons. Great, now I have to question my Masonic membership..... Thanks for the link/info though. I learn something new every day on this forum.
hud Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 440

28th December 2012, 02:13 PM	#255
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	There would be few foolish enough to reject the saving ordinance of Baptism. Most deceased mortals are waiting anxiously for their families to do this work for them... which they neglected to do for themselves during their mortal lifetime. But as in all things our Heavenly Father allows His children to choose for themselves, and take the consequences of their actions. Originally Posted by godless dave So then why have baptism by proxy at all?
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

28th December 2012, 02:14 PM	#256
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by Pup Never knew there was such a myth. Mormons believe in different layers of heaven/hell, with the worst, the one that fits most religions' definition of hell, being Outer Darkness. Google it to learn more. Most people aren't even potentially eligible for there, so I suppose it's not brought up much, which is maybe how such a myth could get started. The Mormon Church doesn't have an in-depth equivalent of the Catholic Catechism. From my understanding, Mormon beliefs loosely fall into 3 basic categories. Official church doctrine, member beliefs, academic apologetics. The Mormon Church typically does not try very hard (if at all) to disabuse the members of beliefs like mother god, blood doctrine and thousands of urban legends and myths. The Church has never, AFAIK, announced to the membership formally that the Blood atonement (not to be confused with the atonement of Christ), Adam-god doctrine, etc, are not official doctrine. Also, the Mormon Church refers members to the apologetics of academics like BYU professors and organizations like FAIR and FARMS. The Church does not necassarily hold that these apologetics are official doctrine. See the following article that was written by a Mormon apologist. Mormon Doctrine, What’s Official, And What Isn’t?
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith Last edited by RandFan; 28th December 2012 at 02:19 PM.

28th December 2012, 02:18 PM	#257
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by Janadele But as in all things our Heavenly Father allows His children to choose for themselves, and take the consequences of their actions. Demonstrate that your god exists?
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith Last edited by RandFan; 28th December 2012 at 02:19 PM.

28th December 2012, 02:22 PM	#258
jsfisher ETcorngods survivor Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 11,474	Originally Posted by Janadele There would be few foolish enough to reject the saving ordinance of Baptism. Most deceased mortals are waiting anxiously for their families to do this work for them... which they neglected to do for themselves during their mortal lifetime. But as in all things our Heavenly Father allows His children to choose for themselves, and take the consequences of their actions. This is certainly your belief, I understand that part, but is there evidence for it? Is it stated somewhere in the Book of Mormon, or is it something you were taught by the Church, or is it something you have come to believe on your own. I am genuinely curious as to the basis for your belief.
	__________________ As long as Comparison is sunk in the urine of one's mind, new glasses will not help. --Doronshadmi. *A proud member of the Simpson 15+7, named in the suit, Simpson v. Zwinge, et al., and founder of the ET Corn Gods Survivors Group.* By the way, the Nominate button is to your ~~right~~ left, sort of..

28th December 2012, 02:22 PM	#259
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	Wars... rioting, violence and destruction. Where evil mankind destroys themselves, and their victims... including the innocent and the environment. Originally Posted by DragonLady Why will they be scarce?
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

28th December 2012, 02:29 PM	#260
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by Janadele Wars... rioting, violence and destruction. Where evil mankind destroys themselves, and their victims... including the innocent and the environment. Mormon Eschatology is basically Christian in nature with a few interesting twists that include Christ coming back to America.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

28th December 2012, 02:47 PM	#261
DragonLady Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Under the Starry, Starry Night Posts: 1,828	Quote: Wars... rioting, violence and destruction. Where evil mankind destroys themselves, and their victims... including the innocent and the environment. Those things have been going on since the dawn of humankind. Yet, very few regions have seen men become so scarce they began taking extra wives. So, what, specifically do you believe will happen to so decimate the population that will become necessary, and when?
	__________________ It's NOT denial. I'm just very selective about the reality I accept. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes) The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One

28th December 2012, 02:53 PM	#263
DragonLady Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Under the Starry, Starry Night Posts: 1,828	From Randfan's link: Quote: but that this is not the souls final resting place. They believe that all the people of the earth will be resurrected and receive their physical body again Doesn't that mean those hermaphrodites and transgendered individuals have their old problems handed right back to them?
	__________________ It's NOT denial. I'm just very selective about the reality I accept. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes) The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One

28th December 2012, 03:28 PM	#264
The Greater Fool Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way Posts: 463	Originally Posted by Janadele Even in the after life free agency allows the person to accept or reject the Eternal Gospel. Baptism by proxy is of no effect if the individual does not accept the ordinance. This is GREAT news, indeed! I can wait until after I die, see which is the ONE TRUE religion, then come back to a member of that religion and join postumously. I mean, who wouldn't?
	__________________ - "Who is the Greater Fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the Fool?" [Various; Uknown] - "If you want to make someone hate you, explain to them, logically and politely, why they are wrong." [Phil Simborg] - "Believe in those who seek the truth; doubt those who find it." [Andre Gide]

28th December 2012, 03:47 PM	#265
MIKILLINI Incromulent Logic Join Date: May 2007 Location: The Illini State Posts: 2,866	Originally Posted by Janadele Wake up Joey and AdMan. I have no interest in logging in to those sites Proof of how closed minded you've become. When things get narrowed down, the open mind to debate narrows down as well. Can you see this?
	__________________ Attempting to build a case without evidence is just another day spent with no use of common sense. The conspiracist is not merely illogical: he assaults logic.~ Pomeroo Sylvia Browne is not a medium, she's a mediocre.

28th December 2012, 03:57 PM	#266
hud Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 440	Originally Posted by The Greater Fool This is GREAT news, indeed! I can wait until after I die, see which is the ONE TRUE religion, then come back to a member of that religion and join postumously. I mean, who wouldn't? Indeed, I may put this in my will. Pascal's Wager and all
hud Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 440

28th December 2012, 04:50 PM	#267
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	https://www.lds.org/topics/baptisms-...-dead?lang=eng The Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith sublime doctrine concerning the sacred ordinance of baptism. The Lord’s revelation that through proper priesthood authority, baptism could be performed vicariously for the dead preserved the justice of His statement: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Vicarious baptism can mercifully provide this essential ordinance for all worthy deceased who did not receive it in mortality. This glorious doctrine is another witness of the all-encompassing nature of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He made salvation available to every repentant soul. His Atonement conquered death, and He permits the worthy deceased to receive all ordinances of salvation vicariously. https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...-dead?lang=eng Originally Posted by jsfisher This is certainly your belief, I understand that part, but is there evidence for it? Is it stated somewhere in the Book of Mormon, or is it something you were taught by the Church, or is it something you have come to believe on your own. I am genuinely curious as to the basis for your belief.
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Last edited by Janadele; 28th December 2012 at 05:05 PM.

28th December 2012, 04:54 PM	#268
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,013	Originally Posted by Janadele Wars... rioting, violence and destruction. Where evil mankind destroys themselves, and their victims... including the innocent and the environment. Cats and dogs sleeping together?
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,013

28th December 2012, 04:59 PM	#270
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by Janadele .......... Got nothing? 's okay.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

28th December 2012, 05:22 PM	#271
jsfisher ETcorngods survivor Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 11,474	Originally Posted by Janadele https://www.lds.org/topics/baptisms-...-dead?lang=eng The Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith sublime doctrine concerning the sacred ordinance of baptism. The Lord’s revelation that through proper priesthood authority, baptism could be performed vicariously for the dead preserved the justice of His statement: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Vicarious baptism can mercifully provide this essential ordinance for all worthy deceased who did not receive it in mortality. This glorious doctrine is another witness of the all-encompassing nature of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He made salvation available to every repentant soul. His Atonement conquered death, and He permits the worthy deceased to receive all ordinances of salvation vicariously. https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...-dead?lang=eng Yes, I understood that. I asked you a different question, though. I was asking specifically for the basis of this statement: Quote: Most deceased mortals are waiting anxiously for their families to do this work for them Mine was not a question of how or whether, but of how many.
	__________________ As long as Comparison is sunk in the urine of one's mind, new glasses will not help. --Doronshadmi. *A proud member of the Simpson 15+7, named in the suit, Simpson v. Zwinge, et al., and founder of the ET Corn Gods Survivors Group.* By the way, the Nominate button is to your ~~right~~ left, sort of..

28th December 2012, 05:26 PM	#272
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by Janadele This glorious doctrine is another witness of the all-encompassing nature of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He made salvation available to every repentant soul. One would think an omnipotent being could just forgive people without the gory human sacrifice.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

28th December 2012, 06:29 PM	#273
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	I have not served an official LDS mission, but three of my sons have... one in New Zealand, one in Queensland Australia, one in Colorado, United States of America. Originally Posted by angrysoba Janadele, Have you ever done missionary work? Just curious. If so, would you like to tell us where? Thanks
	__________________ All articles reproduced are in accordance with Section 107 of title 17 of the Copyright Law of the United States relating to fair-use, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

28th December 2012, 06:51 PM	#274
abaddon Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,514	Originally Posted by CORed Sockpuppet of Robert Prey? No, but a former member always put their response before the qoute, and inserted spaces before the question marks. Just sayin'.
abaddon Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,514	__________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?

28th December 2012, 06:57 PM	#275
Ambrosia Good of the Fods Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,738	Originally Posted by Janadele Baptism by authority is a requirement for every mortal who has ever lived on this earth... otherwise their progression is restricted and they cannot inherit eternal salvation. Originally Posted by Janadele https://www.lds.org/topics/baptisms-...-dead?lang=eng The Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith sublime doctrine concerning the sacred ordinance of baptism. The Lord’s revelation that through proper priesthood authority, baptism could be performed vicariously for the dead preserved the justice of His statement: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Janadele. this in a nutshell neatly sums up why I don't agree with the teachings of the book of Mormon. Or Christian theology in general. The teachings of any particular subset of Christian involves believing in and adhering to a persons interpretation of "Gods word" Looking at the quote above which is John 3:5. This is the retelling of a conversation Jesus had with a man called Nicodemus. Nicodemus asks about the mechanics of being 'born again' "how can someone be born again, they cannot re-enter their mothers womb?" We can interpret John 3:5 (which is the only time a requirement to be born of water is mentioned) in lots of different ways. The bible doesn't explain this. Inside the womb a child grows inside a sac of fluid, it's reasonable to interpret John 3:5 as referring to a natural birth. There are several other equally plausible interpretations of this text. LDS teachings refer to yet another book of the bible, the book of Mormon. As well as later teachings from "the prophet" and from those you hold the belief that a person cannot progress in eternal life in heaven without being physically baptised in water. That is at odds with many verses of the bible e.g. Romans 6:23, Romans 10:9 Ephesians 2:8-9 which state that anyone who accepts Jesus as their saviour gets eternal life and salvation, nothing else required, no works, no rituals to complete. So which is right? What version is the truth, and why so many conflicting versions? The bible is a document written after the fact. It was written in an older language and has been translated and re-translated many times in it's history. Language has many quirks and idiosyncrasies which can subtly change the meaning of the words, often in ways that a translator that is not sufficiently fluent in both can miss. On top of those potential errors, preachers from different churches will then impart their own interpretation of what is written and over time that causes whole different branches of the church to emerge. [that phenomenon mirrors evolution so closely it's a interesting debate all by itself] Which brings me to my question. Why do you believe in the teachings of the Mormon church and reject those of other Christian churches? What makes the words of the 'prophets' you follow so special and how do you rationalise the revisionism that continues in the teachings of the LDS church? In your case why do you believe that the LDS church is the right one, and the Anglican church you grew up with, is the wrong church? To be more specific how do you rationalise Originally Posted by Janadele Baptism by authority is a requirement for every mortal who has ever lived on this earth... otherwise their progression is restricted and they cannot inherit eternal salvation. with Originally Posted by Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV ⁸ For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ⁹ not by works, so that no one can boast.

28th December 2012, 09:08 PM	#276
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363	Originally Posted by Janadele My late husband never joined, nor did he give his permission for me to be baptised. However he did not stop me from attending nor raising our six children LDS. One of our sons was on his mission in Colorado when his late father appeared to him and his companion and asked to be baptised. There was great excitement in the mission, and my son was baptised as proxy for his father in the Denver Temple. I don't believe you.
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363

28th December 2012, 09:10 PM	#277
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363	Originally Posted by Janadele https://www.lds.org/topics/baptisms-...-dead?lang=eng The Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith sublime doctrine concerning the sacred ordinance of baptism. The Lord’s revelation that through proper priesthood authority, baptism could be performed vicariously for the dead preserved the justice of His statement: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Vicarious baptism can mercifully provide this essential ordinance for all worthy deceased who did not receive it in mortality. This glorious doctrine is another witness of the all-encompassing nature of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He made salvation available to every repentant soul. His Atonement conquered death, and He permits the worthy deceased to receive all ordinances of salvation vicariously. https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...-dead?lang=eng Or, Smith made the whole thing up.
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363