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Old 28th December 2012, 10:43 PM   #281
Janadele
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Ambrosia,

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

We are ultimately saved by grace through faith, but all will be judged individually on our own actions and choices.

There are many degrees of "salvation"... depends whether you are content with the lowest degree for eternity, or strive for the highest.

Faith is the key to overcome doubt, when one thinks of eternity, the importance of it, and the triviality of our life here... where one thousand years of our time is but a day in our Heavenly Fathers time, we can see that our brief sojourn on earth is but a twinkle in eternity. We have barely stepped out of our Heavenly home to experience our "trial", before it is time to return.

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

Grace is a word that occurs frequently in the New Testament, especially in the writings of Paul. The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ. Grace is the divine assistance or heavenly help each of us desperately needs to qualify for the celestial kingdom. Thus, the enabling power of the Atonement strengthens us to do and be good and to serve beyond our own individual desire and natural capacity.

The Saviour has paid the price and made it possible for us to become clean through His redeeming power. http://www.lds.org/general-conferenc...saved?lang=eng

Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
Janadele......The teachings of any particular subset of Christian involves believing in and adhering to a persons interpretation of "Gods word".....

LDS teachings refer to yet another book of the bible, the book of Mormon. As well as later teachings from "the prophet" and from those you hold the belief that a person cannot progress in eternal life in heaven without being physically baptised in water...

how do you rationalise

Originally Posted by Janadele
Baptism by authority is a requirement for every mortal who has ever lived on this earth... otherwise their progression is restricted and they cannot inherit eternal salvation.
with

Originally Posted by Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9 King James
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
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Old 28th December 2012, 10:46 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
KiriKiwi,
That is the eternal question which has been answered time and time again If you read my previous posts the answer is there.
I read all of your posts, and no, the answer is not there.
How do you know the stuff you believe is true?
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Old 28th December 2012, 11:23 PM   #283
Janadele
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There are many references on this subject, the link to the following was provided in my previous answer:
https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...-dead?lang=eng
... the keys Elijah restored to Joseph Smith permit our hearts to be bound and each of us linked to those of our ancestors who are waiting for our help. Through our efforts in holy temples here on earth using the authority delegated by the Savior, our progenitors receive the saving ordinances that allow them to enjoy eternal happiness.

Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
Yes, I understood that. I asked you a different question, though...
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Old 28th December 2012, 11:24 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
... the keys Elijah restored to Joseph Smith permit our hearts to be bound and each of us linked to those of our ancestors who are waiting for our help. Through our efforts in holy temples here on earth using the authority delegated by the Savior, our progenitors receive the saving ordinances that allow them to enjoy eternal happiness.
How do you know?
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Old 28th December 2012, 11:32 PM   #285
Janadele
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Often the answer to what is sought, is not what the seeker wants to hear nor is willing to accept.
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Old 28th December 2012, 11:33 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by kerikiwi View Post
How do you know?
To be fair, she did answer that. She just knows in her heart.
I'd amend the question to, how would you convince anyone else?
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Old 28th December 2012, 11:46 PM   #287
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Some will never be convinced... up until they pass from this mortal trial and realise to their sorrow that they have failed, and wasted the precious opportunity which was given to them, but now lost.

They have hardened their hearts to the promptings of their own Spirit, to the knowledge which they had in the pre existence, to Eternal Law, and turned their back on their Heavenly Father and the Eternal Gospel of Salvation.

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
To be fair, she did answer that. She just knows in her heart.
I'd amend the question to, how would you convince anyone else?
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Old 28th December 2012, 11:48 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
To be fair, she did answer that. She just knows in her heart.
I'd amend the question to, how would you convince anyone else?
Well that is just saying she knows because she knows.
It tells us that she knows (or, believes) it doesn't address the question of how she knows
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Old 28th December 2012, 11:54 PM   #289
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Lightbulb

KeriKiwi:

Pray with a sincere heart, with real intent, ask in the name of Jesus Christ.

Study the Scriptures.

Talk to the LDS Missionaries.
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Old 29th December 2012, 12:04 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
KeriKiwi:

Pray with a sincere heart, with real intent, ask in the name of Jesus Christ.

Study the Scriptures.

Talk to the LDS Missionaries.
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
i am not seeking to believe. I am trying to understand why you believe what you believe.
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Old 29th December 2012, 12:36 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by kerikiwi View Post
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
i am not seeking to believe. I am trying to understand why you believe what you believe.
Because she had a burning in her bossom after reading the Book of Mormon and praying about it. The missionaries said she would if it was all true, and she did.

I've argued with another LDS believer on line, and it also all came back to this. No matter how many factual errors and general sillyness in his beliefs we pointed out to him, it could never outweigh the fact that he was able to self-induce a particular physical sensation. That proved it all, and anything that didn't currently seem to make sense would be explained to him by God in the afterlife.

ETA: Just had a look for an article I once read on the subject; I couldn't find it, but did find several warning articles by Christians like this one:

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/book-of-mormon.htm

Quote:
Again, be on your guard. To pray about something like the Book of Mormon or bowing before a Mary statue can allow the devil to give you an experience that will deceive you. A burning in the bosom from such would not be the testimony of the Holy Spirit, as the Latter Day Saint people like to say/think. This is very important to remember and tell others about.

One of my family members prayed about the Jehovah's Witnesses and got a burning in the bosom about that false religion. Is God giving the burning in the bosom experience to the Mormons and people who pray about the Jehovah’s Witnesses too? It would be impossible because these two beliefs are poles apart from each other. (These facts would also be good to share with the Mormon missionaries when they get emphatic about you praying with regard to the BOM.)
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Last edited by Pixel42; 29th December 2012 at 12:46 AM.
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Old 29th December 2012, 12:44 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Because she had a burning in her bossom after reading the Book of Mormon and praying about it. The missionaries said she would if it was all true.
She had a young baby. Believe me, that burning in the bosom had another explanation entirely.
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Old 29th December 2012, 01:16 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Some will never be convinced... up until they pass from this mortal trial and realise to their sorrow that they have failed, and wasted the precious opportunity which was given to them, but now lost.

They have hardened their hearts to the promptings of their own Spirit, to the knowledge which they had in the pre existence, to Eternal Law, and turned their back on their Heavenly Father and the Eternal Gospel of Salvation.
Of course, if you were following a false religion started by the devil, (s)he would make you feel exactly that and discourage any form of doubt or self reflection lest you find out your religion is actually NOT the right one.

Didn't you say somewhere that you were told that doubting is the devil's work? And isn't that exactly what the devil would say?
A true religion would not even call up doubt at all, and thus not discourage it.
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Old 29th December 2012, 01:20 AM   #294
Janadele
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No Lukraak Sisser, I did not say that... you must be remembering another poster.
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Old 29th December 2012, 01:21 AM   #295
Janadele
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KeriKiwi:
I notice you are from Bay of Islands NZ... I have fond memories of this unpolluted magical part of the world, having cruised many times with Bay of Islands being a significent stop over. I can see it now... white sands, clear waters sparkling in the sunshine.
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Old 29th December 2012, 01:46 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
We are ultimately saved by grace through faith, but all will be judged individually on our own actions and choices.
That much is standard fare for any theist religion, pretty much.

Quote:
There are many degrees of "salvation"... depends whether you are content with the lowest degree for eternity, or strive for the highest.
This bit seems to be tacked on by some of the more esoteric ones.

This is the idea that while all believers get to heaven, only the ones that got the most points on the exam get to the extra special heaven.

Which part of the teachings of the LDS church tell you that?

I am not sure I would want to live forever. I'd happily add on a few hundred thousand years to my lifetime, though eternity is a very long time.
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Old 29th December 2012, 02:14 AM   #297
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Eternity is indeed a very long time Ambrosia As eternal beings it is not our choice whether we continue to exist or not, our choice lies only in determining the conditions of our existance.
Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
I am not sure I would want to live forever. I'd happily add on a few hundred thousand years to my lifetime, though eternity is a very long time.
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Old 29th December 2012, 02:41 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Some will never be convinced... up until they pass from this mortal trial and realise to their sorrow that they have failed, and wasted the precious opportunity which was given to them, but now lost.

Do you not realize how sick and disgusting it is for you to believe something like that?

We know that it also makes you feel good about yourself, though you will likely deny it and lie and say you "feel bad for them". Deep down inside you feel special. It drips from your posts like water.

After all, if there were no losers in the little special rules life game you are playing then what would be the point of winning...
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Old 29th December 2012, 02:41 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Eternity is indeed a very long time Ambrosia As eternal beings it is not our choice whether we continue to exist or not, our choice lies only in determining the conditions of our existance.
Fortunately, there is no evidence that we are eternal beings, and plenty of evidence that we are not.
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Old 29th December 2012, 03:01 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Some will never be convinced... up until they pass from this mortal trial and realise to their sorrow that they have failed, and wasted the precious opportunity which was given to them, but now lost.

They have hardened their hearts to the promptings of their own Spirit, to the knowledge which they had in the pre existence, to Eternal Law, and turned their back on their Heavenly Father and the Eternal Gospel of Salvation.
I think the above is a good example of why pointing out to true believers the obvious contradictions and nonsense of large, successful religions is generally useless. They're large and successful because they've had those things pointed out so many times and have been able to provide answers that are acceptable to enough believers, to keep going.

As Ambrosia mentioned above, it's like evolution: we're seeing the survival of the fittest religions, who are tough and hardy in their niche.

Christianity, and other religions too, rely on the smug comeback: when you're dead, you'll see I'm right.

How can one continue a discussion against that? It has all the argument-ending qualities of "neener neener." The opponent walks away in frustration, seeing that no logical debate is possible, and the religious person feels like they won.

And so the meme propagates, getting sharper teeth and claws, ensconcing itself more firmly in its niche.

The LDS church provided a significant mutation. Because it was so brand new, there was a problem: People had recent relatives who died without ever getting to join, and therefore would miss out on all the promised benefits. Today, with the heavy emphasis on the selling point of families being together forever, the problem is slightly different: Living relatives could join, but they won't.

Baptism for the dead, and the whole idea of being able to convert even after you died, was the new even more clever answer, a mutation that seems to be successful.

Last edited by Pup; 29th December 2012 at 03:03 AM.
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Old 29th December 2012, 03:18 AM   #301
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We were all in the beginning as an intelligence. Infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting. Our intelligence was born into a Spiritual body through our Heavenly parents. This Spiritual body grew to maturity, as each of us reached a different stage of knowledge and elevated intelligence. We were then each given the choice to further progress by choosing to come to this earth for our Spiritual body to receive a mortal body for a trial period. Our progression has brought us here to this moment in time and all will continue to progress through the eternities except for those who choose Lucifer and follow him to outer darkness and regress back to their state as the intelligence they were in the beginning.

Originally Posted by Mashuna View Post
Fortunately, there is no evidence that we are eternal beings, and plenty of evidence that we are not.
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Old 29th December 2012, 03:52 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
We were all in the beginning as an intelligence. Infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting. Our intelligence was born into a Spiritual body through our Heavenly parents. This Spiritual body grew to maturity, as each of us reached a different stage of knowledge and elevated intelligence. We were then each given the choice to further progress by choosing to come to this earth for our Spiritual body to receive a mortal body for a trial period. Our progression has brought us here to this moment in time and all will continue to progress through the eternities except for those who choose Lucifer and follow him to outer darkness and regress back to their state as the intelligence they were in the beginning.
Yes, as he said, fortunately there is no evidence for any of that.
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Old 29th December 2012, 04:09 AM   #303
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Lightbulb

http://www.lds.org/media-library/vid...n-of-salvation

http://mormon.org/plan-of-happiness

Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
...
This is the idea that while all believers get to heaven, only the ones that got the most points on the exam get to the extra special heaven.

Which part of the teachings of the LDS church tell you that?
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Old 29th December 2012, 04:17 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles View Post
Yes, as he said, fortunately there is no evidence for any of that.
Exactly. It's funny how religion generally teaches humility, but is actually the epitome of arrogance. We're supposed to believe Janadele, simply because she says so. If we don't get that burning in the bosom when she tells us the "facts," there's something wrong with us.

But to continue the analogy, we're not suitable hosts for the meme. The techniques that work on the proper hosts still work well, so religions have no pressure to change them to suit everyone, any more than rabbits adapt to climbing trees as long as there's plenty of brushland to live in.

I'd love to see a debate between two Mormons like Janadele and Henry Eyring, though. It would be like a ring species, and they would be the two ends who couldn't intermix, even though they started from the same source.
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Old 29th December 2012, 04:42 AM   #305
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Pup, I have no quarrel with Henry Eyring, nor his son Henry B. Eyring of the First Presidency... I have only admiration and respect for them both, as I do for all the Brethren.
Originally Posted by Pup View Post

I'd love to see a debate between two Mormons like Janadele and Henry Eyring, though. It would be like a ring species, and they would be the two ends who couldn't intermix, even though they started from the same source.
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Old 29th December 2012, 05:27 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
We were all in the beginning as an intelligence. Infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting. Our intelligence was born into a Spiritual body through our Heavenly parents. This Spiritual body grew to maturity, as each of us reached a different stage of knowledge and elevated intelligence. We were then each given the choice to further progress by choosing to come to this earth for our Spiritual body to receive a mortal body for a trial period. Our progression has brought us here to this moment in time and all will continue to progress through the eternities except for those who choose Lucifer and follow him to outer darkness and regress back to their state as the intelligence they were in the beginning.
And its all fine and well you believe that, but as others have said, the evidence is sadly lacking. I've worked with people who have had a clear revelation that they are reincarnated and that there is no particular god, just other spirits.
I've worked with devout evangelical christians who *know* due to jesus talking to them that their version of christianity is right.
I've worked with muslims who know similarly that their religion is the only one.
Etc etc.
The one thing they all have in common is that they all know they are right and everyone else is wrong the exact same way that you do. Some form of revelation.

To me this either means there are a lot of so-called gods of roughly equal power and therefore chosing is pretty meaningless or there are no gods at all and its all just a form of self delusion.
Given that all the gods are supposedly all-powerful yet seem unable to convince most of humanity or do simple things like re-grow a limb of a devout follower I'm going with the latter.
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Old 29th December 2012, 05:42 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Often the answer to what is sought, is not what the seeker wants to hear nor is willing to accept.
...so what about the clear historical contradictions?
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Old 29th December 2012, 05:56 AM   #308
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Such as?
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Old 29th December 2012, 05:58 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by brettDbass View Post
It must be what did for Spok in the 70s:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgHxFNFWlZc
I was fortunate enough to see this in Salt Lake City when it first came out, and with that line a great roar of laughter rolled through the theater.
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Old 29th December 2012, 06:10 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Such as?
What? Starting a new page makes what was clearly posted on the previous pages go away?

The clear, demonstrable, historical inaccuracies that have been presented unto you by previous posters.
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Old 29th December 2012, 06:21 AM   #311
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Name one.
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Old 29th December 2012, 06:23 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Pup, I have no quarrel with Henry Eyring, nor his son Henry B. Eyring of the First Presidency... I have only admiration and respect for them both, as I do for all the Brethren.
Here's my evidence that you and Eyring would not agree. From this post:

Originally Posted by Janadele
I do not support Darwin's Theory of Evolution.
Humankind is the direct and lineal offspring of Deity
From Henry Eyring, Mormon Scientist and Supporter of Evolution: "to quickly summarize, Eyring accepts, supports and even defends human evolution in 3 out of the four locations where the subject turns up in the book (one quote is rather ambiguous)."

In the review, there's also a quote from Stephen L. Peck, from this opinion piece in the Salt Lake Tribune:

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Peck
I am a biology professor and a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I take particular delight in being raised a Mormon who was taught that education and knowledge are among our highest ideals.

Many are surprised to find that I am also an evolutionary biologist. I am also a member of the Society for the Study of Evolution, the United States' leading evolutionary science organization, and have published papers in its journal Evolution. I have published numerous scientific papers on the topic of evolution and believe that it is the best explanation for the diversity of life we see around us.
I stand by my assessment. The meme has become a ring species.
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Old 29th December 2012, 06:24 AM   #313
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This thread is Janadele's mission.
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Old 29th December 2012, 06:34 AM   #314
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Pup... Our Heavenly Father is the greatest of all mathematicians and scientists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not refute true science, but certainly does not support the theories of Darwin... as also does not Henry Eyring. The word evolution does not automatically mean human beings come from monkeys... far from it. I would suggest you read Henry Eyrings books for the real meanings and not take words out of context or from dubious publications.

Last edited by Janadele; 29th December 2012 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 29th December 2012, 06:39 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Name one.
Post #167
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=167

...to start...
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Old 29th December 2012, 06:44 AM   #316
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Why LDS, and not the Community of Christ?
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Old 29th December 2012, 06:45 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Name one.
Horses, chariots, steel, etc.
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Old 29th December 2012, 06:49 AM   #318
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Nonsense. Copying lists from anti-Mormon sites and then expecting me to spend my time researching their claims, will not work. I have better things to do with my time. No doubt there are apologists who have already refuted their lists, over and over and over again... look them up.
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Old 29th December 2012, 07:01 AM   #319
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You will need to enquire elsewhere for information on the Community of Christ. It is not my interest to discuss or criticise other denominations.

Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Why LDS, and not the Community of Christ?
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Old 29th December 2012, 07:21 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Nonsense. Copying lists from anti-Mormon sites and then expecting me to spend my time researching their claims, will not work.
Who has done that? Post #167 lists actual quotes from the Book of Mormon. Quotes which refer to animals and plants being present in the Americas centuries before they first arrived there.
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