Libertarianism and Prison

Brian · 22nd June 2004, 07:23 PM

I'm fairly on board with what some of the libertarians say on this board. I'm not %100, but I see the sense. Less government is a good idea, least government goes too far in my opinion. Anarcho-anything is a bad idea, I think.
Anyway, no bashing or attacking...
Are privatized prisons a good idea? How would that work? Would the prisoners pay for their own imprisonment? Not a bad idea. The harder you're willing to work, the better your living conditions. Same as on the outside. It would give us a good idea who wants to be rehabilitated.
Or, would we send convicted felons to private prisons, who make their own rules. Many if not most Americans would likely shoot for "cheaper is better". Screw em', they're criminals. That could lead to third world conditions.

corplinx · 22nd June 2004, 07:27 PM

We libertarians believe in converting felons

into soylent green for the poor.

Jocko · 22nd June 2004, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
We libertarians believe in converting felons

into soylent green for the poor.

We Republicans believe in converting the poor into free meatloaf for the wealthy.

Brian · 22nd June 2004, 07:31 PM

Us non-voters just try not to get caught.

Batman Jr. · 22nd June 2004, 07:57 PM

Anarchy, though probably not plausible now by any stretch of the imagination, I see as the eventual goal of the evolution of civilization. Many think anarchy more as chaotic and disordered and dystopian. This is not necessarily true. Whenever the average guy now will approach the prospect of anarchistic society, he always envisages pillaging, raping, murdering, really just about any moral ill you could imagine. But think of it this way: has pillaging, raping, and murdering ever been consensual? No. By their definition, they never are. What is not consensual is considered governance. The anarchistic society which pursues its ideals with the greatest of verity would not include such atrocities, and paradoxically, nor would it include any manner of defenses against them. Anarchy is the form of "government" which truly lies with the people. The only catch is that it must lie with a great people.

Brian · 22nd June 2004, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Batman Jr.
Anarchy, though probably not plausible now by any stretch of the imagination, I see as the eventual goal of the evolution of civilization. Many think anarchy more as chaotic and disordered and dystopian. This is not necessarily true. Whenever the average guy now will approach the prospect of anarchistic society, he always envisages pillaging, raping, murdering, really just about any moral ill you could imagine. But think of it this way: has pillaging, raping, and murdering ever been consensual? No. By their definition, they never are. What is not consensual is considered governance. The anarchistic society which pursues its ideals with the greatest of verity would not include such atrocities, and paradoxically, nor would it include any manner of defenses against them. Anarchy is the form of "government" which truly lies with the people. The only catch is that it must lie with a great people.

It seems that you're hoping that humans will get better, I hope to hell you're right! What about the broken people? The Bundys, the Geins? My scenario for anarchy is this:
Bunch of people get guns and take my stuff, and my neighbors stuff.
We band together and get guns so people can't take our stuff.
We need to make rules about who guards what at what time.
If someone does not guard when they should we need a threat.
We set up a system to decide who is on duty and who's not.
We set up people to enforce that rule, our survival depends on it.
We have other people decide the punishment.
We have others decide if they need to be punished.
We pay people to guard them.
The money has to come from somewhere.

You see where I'm going?

I hope that humans get better, but I have no stake in facilitating it.

shanek · 23rd June 2004, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian
Are privatized prisons a good idea?

If someone came up to me with a killer plan for a privatized prison, I could get behind it. But no, in general I don't think privatizing prisons would necessarily be a good idea, nor is it a Libertarian position.

BillyTK · 23rd June 2004, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian

It seems that you're hoping that humans will get better, I hope to hell you're right! What about the broken people? The Bundys, the Geins? My scenario for anarchy is this:
Bunch of people get guns and take my stuff, and my neighbors stuff.
We band together and get guns so people can't take our stuff.
We need to make rules about who guards what at what time.
If someone does not guard when they should we need a threat.
We set up a system to decide who is on duty and who's not.
We set up people to enforce that rule, our survival depends on it.
We have other people decide the punishment.
We have others decide if they need to be punished.
We pay people to guard them.
The money has to come from somewhere.

You see where I'm going?

I hope that humans get better, but I have no stake in facilitating it.

Just to be provocative for the sake of it, consider what might happen with the police force replaced by private security services, and particularly if your situation is such that you carnt afford their services. (Some) Libertarians advocate private security services in place of state law-enforcement agencies. Do you really want to trust them with your children, your pets, or your home?!!

Brian · 23rd June 2004, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek

If someone came up to me with a killer plan for a privatized prison, I could get behind it. But no, in general I don't think privatizing prisons would necessarily be a good idea, nor is it a Libertarian position.

Well, I would assume the anarcho-libertarians would not want a government run prison system. How are the anarchists viewed by mainstream libertarians? Are they the whackos?

Brian · 23rd June 2004, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyTK

Just to be provocative for the sake of it, consider what might happen with the police force replaced by private security services, and particularly if your situation is such that you carnt afford their services. (Some) Libertarians advocate private security services in place of state law-enforcement agencies. Do you really want to trust them with your children, your pets, or your home?!!

Nope, I wouldn't. The point of my post was that (i think) a government would form from anarchy quite naturally.

Batman Jr. · 23rd June 2004, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian

Nope, I wouldn't. The point of my post was that (i think) a government would form from anarchy quite naturally.

Hopefully, in the future, it won't. The problem today is that people are too submissive and can be too easily led by others. A government which ceases to be acknowledged is no longer a government.

22nd June 2004, 07:23 PM	#1
Brian Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,780	Libertarianism and Prison I'm fairly on board with what some of the libertarians say on this board. I'm not %100, but I see the sense. Less government is a good idea, least government goes too far in my opinion. Anarcho-anything is a bad idea, I think. Anyway, no bashing or attacking... Are privatized prisons a good idea? How would that work? Would the prisoners pay for their own imprisonment? Not a bad idea. The harder you're willing to work, the better your living conditions. Same as on the outside. It would give us a good idea who wants to be rehabilitated. Or, would we send convicted felons to private prisons, who make their own rules. Many if not most Americans would likely shoot for "cheaper is better". Screw em', they're criminals. That could lead to third world conditions.
Brian Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,780	__________________ O' beautiful, for spacious skies But now those skies are threatening They're beating plowshares into swords For this tired old man that we elected king Armchair warriors often fail And we've been poisoned by these fairy tales The lawyers clean up all details Since daddy had to lie -Don Henley

22nd June 2004, 07:27 PM	#2
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Re: Libertarianism and Prison We libertarians believe in converting felons into soylent green for the poor.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	__________________ In the tradition of "Stop Silvia!" Stop Hal Bidlack: http://skepticalcommunity.com/forums...hp?f=1&t=28671

22nd June 2004, 07:29 PM	#3
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Re: Re: Libertarianism and Prison Quote: Originally posted by corplinx We libertarians believe in converting felons into soylent green for the poor. We Republicans believe in converting the poor into free meatloaf for the wealthy.
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

22nd June 2004, 07:31 PM	#4
Brian Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,780	Us non-voters just try not to get caught.
Brian Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,780	__________________ O' beautiful, for spacious skies But now those skies are threatening They're beating plowshares into swords For this tired old man that we elected king Armchair warriors often fail And we've been poisoned by these fairy tales The lawyers clean up all details Since daddy had to lie -Don Henley

22nd June 2004, 08:08 PM	#6
Brian Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,780	Quote: Originally posted by Batman Jr. Anarchy, though probably not plausible now by any stretch of the imagination, I see as the eventual goal of the evolution of civilization. Many think anarchy more as chaotic and disordered and dystopian. This is not necessarily true. Whenever the average guy now will approach the prospect of anarchistic society, he always envisages pillaging, raping, murdering, really just about any moral ill you could imagine. But think of it this way: has pillaging, raping, and murdering ever been consensual? No. By their definition, they never are. What is not consensual is considered governance. The anarchistic society which pursues its ideals with the greatest of verity would not include such atrocities, and paradoxically, nor would it include any manner of defenses against them. Anarchy is the form of "government" which truly lies with the people. The only catch is that it must lie with a great people. It seems that you're hoping that humans will get better, I hope to hell you're right! What about the broken people? The Bundys, the Geins? My scenario for anarchy is this: Bunch of people get guns and take my stuff, and my neighbors stuff. We band together and get guns so people can't take our stuff. We need to make rules about who guards what at what time. If someone does not guard when they should we need a threat. We set up a system to decide who is on duty and who's not. We set up people to enforce that rule, our survival depends on it. We have other people decide the punishment. We have others decide if they need to be punished. We pay people to guard them. The money has to come from somewhere. You see where I'm going? I hope that humans get better, but I have no stake in facilitating it.
Brian Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,780	__________________ O' beautiful, for spacious skies But now those skies are threatening They're beating plowshares into swords For this tired old man that we elected king Armchair warriors often fail And we've been poisoned by these fairy tales The lawyers clean up all details Since daddy had to lie -Don Henley

22nd June 2004, 07:57 PM	#5
Batman Jr. Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,255	Anarchy, though probably not plausible now by any stretch of the imagination, I see as the eventual goal of the evolution of civilization. Many think anarchy more as chaotic and disordered and dystopian. This is not necessarily true. Whenever the average guy now will approach the prospect of anarchistic society, he always envisages pillaging, raping, murdering, really just about any moral ill you could imagine. But think of it this way: has pillaging, raping, and murdering ever been consensual? No. By their definition, they never are. What is not consensual is considered governance. The anarchistic society which pursues its ideals with the greatest of verity would not include such atrocities, and paradoxically, nor would it include any manner of defenses against them. Anarchy is the form of "government" which truly lies with the people. The only catch is that it must lie with a great people.

23rd June 2004, 09:40 AM	#7
shanek by Charles M. Schulz Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 15,990	Re: Libertarianism and Prison Quote: Originally posted by Brian Are privatized prisons a good idea? If someone came up to me with a killer plan for a privatized prison, I could get behind it. But no, in general I don't think privatizing prisons would necessarily be a good idea, nor is it a Libertarian position.
	__________________ "James Randi is awesome!" —Ian Bernard, primary host of Free Talk Live "It really does take people like Penn & Teller or James Randi to be able to see through these deceptions, and so those are perhaps the people we should be paying the most attention to." —Harry Browne, 4/10/2004 I know there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere, but I don't know what it is.

23rd June 2004, 09:51 AM	#8
BillyTK Master Poster Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 2,625	Quote: Originally posted by Brian It seems that you're hoping that humans will get better, I hope to hell you're right! What about the broken people? The Bundys, the Geins? My scenario for anarchy is this: Bunch of people get guns and take my stuff, and my neighbors stuff. We band together and get guns so people can't take our stuff. We need to make rules about who guards what at what time. If someone does not guard when they should we need a threat. We set up a system to decide who is on duty and who's not. We set up people to enforce that rule, our survival depends on it. We have other people decide the punishment. We have others decide if they need to be punished. We pay people to guard them. The money has to come from somewhere. You see where I'm going? I hope that humans get better, but I have no stake in facilitating it. Just to be provocative for the sake of it, consider what might happen with the police force replaced by private security services, and particularly if your situation is such that you carnt afford their services. (Some) Libertarians advocate private security services in place of state law-enforcement agencies. Do you really want to trust them with your children, your pets, or your home?!!
BillyTK Master Poster Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 2,625	__________________ Part-timer.

23rd June 2004, 09:53 AM	#9
Brian Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,780	Re: Re: Libertarianism and Prison Quote: Originally posted by shanek If someone came up to me with a killer plan for a privatized prison, I could get behind it. But no, in general I don't think privatizing prisons would necessarily be a good idea, nor is it a Libertarian position. Well, I would assume the anarcho-libertarians would not want a government run prison system. How are the anarchists viewed by mainstream libertarians? Are they the whackos?
Brian Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,780	__________________ O' beautiful, for spacious skies But now those skies are threatening They're beating plowshares into swords For this tired old man that we elected king Armchair warriors often fail And we've been poisoned by these fairy tales The lawyers clean up all details Since daddy had to lie -Don Henley

23rd June 2004, 09:57 AM	#10
Brian Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,780	Quote: Originally posted by BillyTK Just to be provocative for the sake of it, consider what might happen with the police force replaced by private security services, and particularly if your situation is such that you carnt afford their services. (Some) Libertarians advocate private security services in place of state law-enforcement agencies. Do you really want to trust them with your children, your pets, or your home?!! Nope, I wouldn't. The point of my post was that (i think) a government would form from anarchy quite naturally.
Brian Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,780	__________________ O' beautiful, for spacious skies But now those skies are threatening They're beating plowshares into swords For this tired old man that we elected king Armchair warriors often fail And we've been poisoned by these fairy tales The lawyers clean up all details Since daddy had to lie -Don Henley

23rd June 2004, 11:15 AM	#11
Batman Jr. Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,255	Quote: Originally posted by Brian Nope, I wouldn't. The point of my post was that (i think) a government would form from anarchy quite naturally. Hopefully, in the future, it won't. The problem today is that people are too submissive and can be too easily led by others. A government which ceases to be acknowledged is no longer a government.