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Old 29th December 2012, 05:17 PM   #121
Unabogie
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post

<SNIP SPITTLE FLECKED RANT>

You mean the consequences of other people who disobey the law? Awesome.

You're on a roll, keep going....
Not all smokers get lung cancer or heart disease. But on average, their smoking puts a burden on society.

Not all drinkers go driving immediately afterward or become alcoholics or need liver transplants. But enough do that it puts a burden on society.

Not all of you gun nuts end up shooting up schools, but enough of your toys end up being used in homicides, suicides, and drug crimes that it puts a burden on society. That you can't even admit this simple fact shows how far you're gone.

ETA: Here's some facts on this cost.

http://www.who.int/violence_injury_p...dimensions/en/

Quote:
Many of the studies detailing the costs of violence are from the USA where child abuse results in $94 billion in annual costs to the economy - 1.0% of the gross domestic product. Direct medical treatment costs per abused child have been calculated by different studies to range from $13 781 to $42 518. Intimate partner violence costs the USA economy $12.6 billion on an annual basis - 0.1% of the gross domestic product - compared to 1.6% of the gross domestic product in Nicaragua and 2.0% of the gross domestic product in Chile. Gun violence - which includes suicides - has alone been calculated at $155 billion annually in the USA, with lifetime medical treatment costs per victim ranging from $37 000 to $42 000.

Evidence abounds that the public sector - and thus society in general - bears much of the economic burden of interpersonal violence. Several studies in the USA showed that from 56% to 80% of the costs of care for gun and stabbing injuries are either directly paid by public financing or are not paid at all - in which case they are absorbed by the government and society in the form of uncompensated care financing and overall higher payment rates. In low- and middle-income countries, it is also probable that society absorbs much of the costs of violence through direct public expenditures and negative effects on investment and economic growth.

Last edited by Unabogie; 29th December 2012 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 29th December 2012, 05:25 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Can we do similar with computers and other devices capable of connecting to the iNet?
I wanted to point out that purchasing a motor vehicle can be done with cash on the side of the road, but the motor vehicle analogy only works when certain folks wish to misrepresent the facts.

To answer your question, using common sense, the FF's couldn't have envisioned computers and cell phones, so let's tax and stricly regulate possession and use.

Last edited by BStrong; 29th December 2012 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 29th December 2012, 05:30 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Not all smokers get lung cancer or heart disease. But on average, their smoking puts a burden on society.

Not all drinkers go driving immediately afterward or become alcoholics or need liver transplants. But enough do that it puts a burden on society.

Not all of you gun nuts end up shooting up schools, but enough of your toys end up being used in homicides, suicides, and drug crimes that it puts a burden on society. That you can't even admit this simple fact shows how far you're gone.

ETA: Here's some facts on this cost.

http://www.who.int/violence_injury_p...dimensions/en/
You're going to have a bunch of problems with your proposals, but since this is all speculation and fantasy, by all means. carry on.
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Old 29th December 2012, 05:32 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Actually, the spree shooters are the best gun salesmen out there. It doesn't matter who is in office, sales greatly increase after these incidents. ~~~
That's only because Feinstein and McCartney are so quick to start blood-dancing and seize the opportunity to propose new restrictions.

It's buy now, in case you can't later.
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Old 29th December 2012, 05:38 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
That's only because Feinstein and McCartney are so quick to start blood-dancing and seize the opportunity to propose new restrictions.

It's buy now, in case you can't later.
I was around when (let's call him ******* #1) shot up UOT Austin, and don't remember any panic buying.

At the run up to the GCA '68 there was indeed a whole bunch of panic buying, primarily in reponse to the section of the law that outlawed the import of (get ready for it) surplus (overwhelmingly bolt action) military rifles.

From there on, mass murders, shootings, riots, you name it, the only mass national panic buying has occured when the government intervened in the market place.
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Old 29th December 2012, 05:49 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post


I'll put one out. How about tough penalties for gun owners whos weapons are stolen and used in connection with a crime? This would encourage safe storage of guns. I doubt many gun enthusiasts would have a real problem with this.
Mea culpa.

I managed to lose a S&W 9mm pistol.

I was driving from S Fl to N GA. I had it in the glove compartment. Got to my N GA home and it was gone. Looked everywhere. Have no idea where it went. Still don't. I don't remember ever leaving the truck unlocked when it was out of my sight. Last place I KNEW I had it was FL, so the police report was made in Broward County. As far as I know the serial # is still in the NCIC system if it's ever recovered. I can't say whether its ever been used in a crime or not.

Before anyone gets too holier-than-thou, sh*t happens. People lose all sorts of things. Infants and iPads and cameras get forgotten on the tops of cars with some regularity. I don't know that stronger laws against accidental losses and/or thefts would accomplish much.

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 29th December 2012 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 29th December 2012, 05:53 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Sure. We already agree that it's constitutional to deny gun ownership to select people, like felons and the mentally ill. I think we should treat gun owners like car drivers. You buy a gun and you get a gun license. Every year, you have to show up with every gun registered to you and demonstrate that you do can operate the guns safely, and that you do not have any disqualifying offenses.
Really? Like a car? I have not had to demonstrate proficiency with a car since 1979, shortly after my 16th birthday. Why should I be required to do so each year for a gun?

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Old 29th December 2012, 06:02 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
I would like to see gun ownership treated AT LEAST as seriously as a car, motorcycle, or scooter.

I'd pay for all of this with a tax on gun ownership. If you lapse your license fees, you can't own a gun, period.
The penalties for misuse of a firearm can be life in prison, just failure to register some of them results in ten years/$10,000 fine. Want the same thing for cars? I don't think so. Can you imagine the uproar if your government wanted that kind of punishment just because you forgot to register your car?

Gun owners are already subject to some of the most severe sentencing enhancements around. Guns and ammo are already taxed at 11%, Can you name any other goods that are taxed that high? Some firearms have an additional $200 tax levied no matter how much they cost. $20 firearm? $200 tax. It is BS, why do you want more?

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Old 29th December 2012, 06:15 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
The penalties for misuse of a firearm can be life in prison, just failure to register some of them results in ten years/$10,000 fine. Want the same thing for cars? I don't think so. Can you imagine the uproar if your government wanted that kind of punishment just because you forgot to register your car?

Gun owners are already subject to some of the most severe sentencing enhancements around. Guns and ammo are already taxed at 11%, Can you name any other goods that are taxed that high? Some firearms have an additional $200 tax levied no matter how much they cost. $20 firearm? $200 tax. It is BS, why do you want more?

Ranb
To pay for all the damage you guys are doing to society with your guns.

http://www.who.int/violence_injury_p...dimensions/en/

Quote:
For example, a single homicide is calculated to cost, on average, $15 319 in South Africa, $602 000 in Australia, $829 000 in New Zealand, and more than $2 million in the USA.

...

Gun violence - which includes suicides - has alone been calculated at $155 billion annually in the USA, with lifetime medical treatment costs per victim ranging from $37 000 to $42 000.
Why should my tax dollars go to pay for the side effects of your dumb hobby?

ETA: Cigarette taxes are much higher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigaret...ette_tax_rates

Up to $6.86 per pack from the state, with $1.01 per pack from the feds. In New York, the total price is $12.50 for one pack, which means that taxes are well over 100%. So your ammo is taxes much lower than cigarettes, even though WHO says guns cause $155B in costs annually to the rest of us.

Last edited by Unabogie; 29th December 2012 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 29th December 2012, 06:17 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Really? Like a car? I have not had to demonstrate proficiency with a car since 1979, shortly after my 16th birthday. Why should I be required to do so each year for a gun?

Ranb
Because a car is not designed as an efficient instrument of death, and we have police on the streets handing out tickets, and we demonstrate our competence as drivers every day, in view of the police and other drivers?
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Old 29th December 2012, 06:22 PM   #131
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So it is the hobbyists and not the criminals that are doing most of the damage? Who do you want to tax after the hobbyists are driven out and the criminals are still criminals and nutjobs are still offing themselves?

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Old 29th December 2012, 06:23 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
To pay for all the damage you guys are doing to society with your guns.
Why do you insist on calling all guns ours? They're not. Mine, nor BStrong's, nor GeeMack's (I'm assuming for theirs) have caused exactly 0 dollars in damage to society.

Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Why should my tax dollars go to pay for the side effects of your dumb hobby?
For the same reason my tax dollars pay for schools that my kids don't use, and the libraries I don't use....
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Old 29th December 2012, 06:26 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Because a car is not designed as an efficient instrument of death, and we have police on the streets handing out tickets, and we demonstrate our competence as drivers every day, in view of the police and other drivers?
Every weekend I work at a gun club and watch many people demonstrate competence with firearms. In fact is is much safer to shoot at the local gun clubs in Kitsap county than it is to drive on the roads that are between home and the shooting area. We also have police that enforce laws concerning misuse of firearms.

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Old 29th December 2012, 06:27 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
Why do you insist on calling all guns ours? They're not. Mine, nor BStrong's, nor GeeMack's (I'm assuming for theirs) have caused exactly 0 dollars in damage to society.



For the same reason my tax dollars pay for schools that my kids don't use, and the libraries I don't use....
Hahaha! You're equating the awesome things in society like libraries and schools to your stupid guns? I've thought I'd heard it all, but that's just the best. You're precious. You think you and your guns are anything but a blight on the rest of us who don't hoard weapons like you do? We all gain from educated citizens. It fuels our economy. It provides skilled and dependable labor to our businesses. It's just a net plus all around. Guns are instruments of death and cost us $155B every year.

"Guns are the same as libraries and schools." Just totally sig material.
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Old 29th December 2012, 06:28 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
ETA: Cigarette taxes are much higher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigaret...ette_tax_rates

Up to $6.86 per pack from the state, with $1.01 per pack from the feds. In New York, the total price is $12.50 for one pack, which means that taxes are well over 100%. So your ammo is taxes much lower than cigarettes, even though WHO says guns cause $155B in costs annually to the rest of us.
I made a firearm for $20, still had to pay a $200 tax. Ten times what the firearm cost.

Ranb

Last edited by Ranb; 29th December 2012 at 06:32 PM. Reason: for civility
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Old 29th December 2012, 07:53 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Late is too late.

You young guys haven't gone through all the buying panics from '68 on, so you can't be blamed too much, but I've been telling friends from the 70's on that if you want a firearm, and it's available now at or below retail, buy it.

I've received Emails from people I do business with that they're out, not accepting orders, and will not be returning E's or phone messages for the immediate future - Ebay buyers are going nuts with pricing, so over-the-top it's unreal.

I have always followed my own advice, and bought cheap and stacked deep.
This is a very good point, and I shall take it to heart. I am looking for a good price on a SIG 516 or a SIG SWAT. I would be happy with either.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 29th December 2012, 08:18 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I made a firearm for $20, still had to pay a $200 tax. Ten times what the firearm cost.

Ranb
Not to mention that every sporting firearm and every round of ammunition outside of LE and military use carries a built in 11% federal excise tax:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman...estoration_Act
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Old 29th December 2012, 08:38 PM   #138
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Politicians learn nothing. For the second time tonight:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


We can't legislate away random violence.
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Old 29th December 2012, 08:42 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
That's only because Feinstein and McCartney are so quick to start blood-dancing and seize the opportunity to propose new restrictions.

It's buy now, in case you can't later.
Feinstein has seen first hand how a firearm can turn a worplace dispute into a tragedy. The firearms industry sees a tragedy as just another marketing opportunity.
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Old 29th December 2012, 08:47 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Feinstein has seen first hand how a firearm can turn a worplace dispute into a tragedy.
She also has no qualms about carrying the best tool available for her protection. Must be nice to be a senator, not only does she get a concealed carry permit in an area that is damn near impossible for a regular citizen to get, but she gets to ignore the hospital's "gun free zone" when going to visit her husband.

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Quote:
The firearms industry anti-gun lobby sees a tragedy as just another marketing opportunity.
FTFY

Last edited by shawmutt; 29th December 2012 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 29th December 2012, 09:07 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Feinstein has seen first hand how a firearm can turn a worplace dispute into a tragedy. The firearms industry sees a tragedy as just another marketing opportunity.
And it didn't keep her from carrying a firearm when she felt threatened, and it doesn't stop her today from availing herself of professional armed protection.

And if benefiting from bloody tragedy is a disqualifier from polite society, it didn't take Brady or the VPC long to start begging for donations behind the Newtown murders, or for politicians to get face time on the networks.
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Old 29th December 2012, 09:09 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
She also has no qualms about carrying the best tool available for her protection. Must be nice to be a senator, not only does she get a concealed carry permit in an area that is damn near impossible for a regular citizen to get, but she gets to ignore the hospital's "gun free zone" when going to visit her husband.

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FTFY
FTR, back then the only gun-free zones were Federal buldings and other offical structures, state capitol, etc.

I know what hospital her husband was in, and I'm pretty sure it's not a posted gun free zone even today.
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Old 29th December 2012, 09:20 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
I also don't think kids should be allowed to fire guns, just as kids can't drive.
You are not making any sense. Children (16 and 17 years old) are allowed to drive with a license on public roads like everyone.

Ranb

Last edited by Ranb; 29th December 2012 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 29th December 2012, 09:28 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
To pay for all the damage you guys are doing to society with your guns.
My gun collection has caused at least five fewer deaths than the Kennedy clan has with airplanes automobiles and golf clubs. The reason for that is I am responsible and others are not. I pay for those mistakes like everyone else.

I also get figuratively spit on just for owning guns, when was the last time anyone one this forum insulted you for not owning a gun?

Ranb
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Old 29th December 2012, 10:15 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I also get figuratively spit on just for owning guns, when was the last time anyone one this forum insulted you for not owning a gun?

Ranb
Gee, I'm so sorry, I didn't realize how difficult the past couple of weeks have been for you. Here is a link to a place that I'm sure can refer you to a counselor. Be sure to explain to them how traumatic it's been for you.
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Old 30th December 2012, 01:58 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
My gun collection has caused at least five fewer deaths than the Kennedy clan has with airplanes automobiles and golf clubs. The reason for that is I am responsible and others are not. I pay for those mistakes like everyone else.

I also get figuratively spit on just for owning guns, when was the last time anyone one this forum insulted you for not owning a gun?

Ranb
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
And it didn't keep her from carrying a firearm when she felt threatened, and it doesn't stop her today from availing herself of professional armed protection.

And if benefiting from bloody tragedy is a disqualifier from polite society, it didn't take Brady or the VPC long to start begging for donations behind the Newtown murders, or for politicians to get face time on the networks.
How long does the mandatory quiet time last? Is the first amendment on hold for weeks or months after some nut uses one of your favorite toys to massacre first graders?
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Old 30th December 2012, 03:02 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Gee, I'm so sorry, I didn't realize how difficult the past couple of weeks have been for you. Here is a link to a place that I'm sure can refer you to a counselor. Be sure to explain to them how traumatic it's been for you.
One of these things is not like the other...

Oh, wait, no reason to continue as you won't respond. I have a TOOL OF MURDER in my avatar.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/...4411351616086/

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Old 30th December 2012, 03:05 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
How long does the mandatory quiet time last? Is the first amendment on hold for weeks or months after some nut uses one of your favorite toys to massacre first graders?
Will you quit driving the first time some nut plows into a group of first graders?

I don't suppose you'd like to answer to the fact that the main sponsor of this bill conceal carried. Are politicians above normal citizens? Would you support our politicians carrying firearms after they ban everyone else?

Last edited by shawmutt; 30th December 2012 at 03:08 AM.
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Old 30th December 2012, 03:07 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
FTR, back then the only gun-free zones were Federal buldings and other offical structures, state capitol, etc.

I know what hospital her husband was in, and I'm pretty sure it's not a posted gun free zone even today.
Ah, my bad. All the hospitals in my area are, but that might just be a Maryland thing.
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Old 30th December 2012, 04:55 AM   #150
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As a datapoint, I went to a local store yesterday that was having a store wide sale, including firearms.

It began at 8AM and ran to noon. We got there about 8:10. The gun counter had a crush of buyers about five deep along it's entire length. Kinda like a WalMart sale crush, but more polite.

LOTS of long guns and handguns were sold in the hour or so we were there. I suspect few were to first time owners - most of those I saw presented concealed weapons permits which eliminates the need for a background check in GA.

I did hear the salesman say they had no Ruger Mini14's, Mini30's or 10/22's. He said they were "impossible to get". I got the impression that some of the activity was driven by fear of future bans, but I can't say for sure - I had never been to that particular shop before in "normal" times. The salesman did say it was normally less "crazy".

In any case, guns are always popular around here and most people probably have at least a half dozen or so, if not a LOT more. Its what a lot of locals "collect" when they have discretionary funds. Not much violent crime overall, and gun crime is pretty rare, though not unheard of.

I can tell you any law involving either the registration of guns or certain classes of guns, much less the mandatory surrender of them, would meet truly massive civil disobedience across the south, and probably much of the rest of the country as well.

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 30th December 2012 at 04:59 AM.
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Old 30th December 2012, 06:33 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Still looking for a definition of Assault gun...
A gun that's scary because it's black and looks like something out of a military shoot-em-up game.
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Old 30th December 2012, 07:32 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
A gun that's scary because it's black and looks like something out of a military shoot-em-up game.
Any firearm or magazine that holds more than 10 rounds.
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Old 30th December 2012, 07:35 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Any firearm or magazine that holds more than 10 rounds.
Like this?

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Old 30th December 2012, 07:38 AM   #154
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The folks who are actually dancing in blood are the manufacturers and retailers. Every slaughter of innocents helps pump up sales.
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Old 30th December 2012, 07:47 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
If you want to exclude such weapons, how about "any semiautomatic firearm or magazine that holds more than ten rounds"?
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Old 30th December 2012, 07:56 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Hahaha! You're equating the awesome things in society like libraries and schools to your stupid guns?
No, I'm equating your dumb logic to other things in society that not everyone uses.

Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
I've thought I'd heard it all, but that's just the best. You're precious.
Thanks. Glad to hear that.

Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
You think you and your guns are anything but a blight on the rest of us who don't hoard weapons like you do?
Well, considering the vast majority of the guns that are in the US, do nothing to harm society, I would say that my hoarding weapons are not a blight on you, or anyone else.

Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
We all gain from educated citizens.
Correct. Which is why I don't have a problem with schools and libraries.

Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
It fuels our economy.
So does gun sales. In fact, right now, guns and ammo are FLYING off the shelves faster than they can be produced.

Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
It provides skilled and dependable labor to our businesses.
Yep. You're right.

Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
It's just a net plus all around. Guns are instruments of death and cost us $155B every year.
Can you cite that again? I've found varying stats, most nowhere near that.

ETA: Nevermind, I found it. It's from the WHO who got it from a BOOK called "Gun Violence: The real costs" by Philip J. Cook, Jens Ludwig
A book. Can you cite an actual source I can read?

Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
"Guns are the same as libraries and schools." Just totally sig material.
Well, considering I never said that, you'd be wrong, again. Do you ever tire of being so wrong, so often?

Last edited by triforcharity; 30th December 2012 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 30th December 2012, 08:13 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
If you want to exclude such weapons, how about "any semiautomatic firearm or magazine that holds more than ten rounds"?
Nope.

You missed the point.

There are tens of thousands AR15's, Mini14's, AK47's and the like in citizen's hands right now. In gun safes. In closets. Hanging on walls.

Can you tell me what percentage are used in mass shootings? Or in any sort of crime? It's an honest question and I'm curious whether real numbers exist.

My guess would be a vanishingly small percentage.

It comes down to both fairness and constitutional rights. At what point is it unfair to penalize 9,999 law abiding citizens on the outside chance of keeping one class of firearm out of the hands of one criminal/madman?

It's a debatable question, but society will have to decide if certain "solutions" are merely "feelgood", or will be effective - and whether such solutions do, in fact, infringe on rights guaranteed to us by the Constitution.

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 30th December 2012 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 30th December 2012, 08:16 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Gee, I'm so sorry, I didn't realize how difficult the past couple of weeks have been for you. Here is a link to a place that I'm sure can refer you to a counselor. Be sure to explain to them how traumatic it's been for you.
Wow, that's pretty rude. And downright dumb.
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Old 30th December 2012, 08:19 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
Ah, my bad. All the hospitals in my area are, but that might just be a Maryland thing.
No, it's like that in Florida too.
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Old 30th December 2012, 08:25 AM   #160
triforcharity
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Any firearm or magazine that holds more than 10 rounds.
Like this?



And this?




The first is a Glock 17, and holds 17 rounds in a standard, factory issue magazine, and the second is a Remington Model 12 .22 cal pump action rifle, holding 12 rounds.

BTW, Here's a laughing dog for such a laughable post.

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