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Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 02:24 AM

What is discernment, if not the ability to differentiate? Why differentiate if not to determine the value or meaning of something? Indeed, why is the whole Universe set up so that we can differentiate and evaluate each and every thing there is? Could it be because there's a genuine purpose behind our being here? Or else why would the Universe be wrought with meaning through and through? Is that to say there's nothing coherent about the Universe, which brings it all into focus, an ultimate meaning in other words? What is the meaning of a human body, with the sum total of its parts? Certainly not a lack of coherence, right? What is meaning without consciousness? And how could we discern otherwise?

Beancounter · 23rd June 2004, 02:34 AM

Iacchus

Is this one thread or 15?

MRC_Hans · 23rd June 2004, 02:34 AM

Mmm, and your point is?

Hans

Yahweh · 23rd June 2004, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Why differentiate if not to determine the value or meaning of something?

Discernment is also useful if you wish to organize, to catergorize, or identify things.

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What is meaning without consciousness?

A definition?

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And how could we discern otherwise?

By awaking from deep sleep.

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MRC_Hans

Mmm, and your point is?

Hans

Just asking why we're given the ability to discern and differentiate between things if not for the sake of establishing their meaning. And I don't necessarily mean in the human sense either, because if there was no difference between one thing and the next there would be nothing here. So in that sense everything must be comprised of meaning.

Beancounter · 23rd June 2004, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Just asking why we're given the ability to discern and differentiate between things if not for the sake of establishing their meaning. And I don't necessarily mean in the human sense either, because if there was no difference between one thing and the next there would be nothing here. So in that sense everything must be comprised of meaning.

Meaning? I differentiate between things to make sure I don't brush my teeth with the lawnmower.

I am sure I am trivialising your question but due to my unphilosophical mind I need a bit more clarification (if I am to continue in the thread, which may not be your preference anyway

)

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh

Discernment is also useful if you wish to organize, to catergorize, or identify things.

Yes, and each of these has meaning in its own right.

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A definition?

To whom?

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By awaking from deep sleep.

And then we would be conscious, right?

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beancounter

Meaning? I differentiate between things to make sure I don't brush my teeth with the lawnmower.

Common sense?

Quote:

I am sure I am trivialising your question but due to my unphilosophical mind I need a bit more clarification (if I am to continue in the thread, which may not be your preference anyway )

Well, if it has no meaning to you, why bother?

Beancounter · 23rd June 2004, 03:03 AM

I'll get my coat...

MRC_Hans · 23rd June 2004, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Just asking why we're given the ability to discern and differentiate between things if not for the sake of establishing their meaning. And I don't necessarily mean in the human sense either, because if there was no difference between one thing and the next there would be nothing here. So in that sense everything must be comprised of meaning.

Well, I don't KNOW of course, but I find it likely that we were "given" the ability to discern by evolution, because it makes one heck of a survival factor. The fact that there are differences can in no logical way lead to the conclusion that there is meaning.

Hans

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beancounter

I'll get my coat...

Am I to conclude that what I've said means nothing to you? How so? And what right do you have to differentiate? Or, are you trying to suggest differentiation has nothing to do with it?

Yahweh · 23rd June 2004, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Yes, and each of these has meaning in its own right.

I'm afraid I dont follow...

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To whom?

A very good question because I think it elaborates on the concept of "meaning". Does "meaning" refer to something cosmic (in the sense of a God), or is meaning something personal which will vary according to whomever you ask?

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And then we would be conscious, right?

Of course.

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MRC_Hans

Well, I don't KNOW of course, but I find it likely that we were "given" the ability to discern by evolution, because it makes one heck of a survival factor. The fact that there are differences can in no logical way lead to the conclusion that there is meaning.

Then what's your point, if it has no meaning?

So what you seem to be suggesting is that Evolution is what instills ultimate meaning in life, right?

MRC_Hans · 23rd June 2004, 03:35 AM

Nonsense and straw-man.

Bye.

Hans

Beancounter · 23rd June 2004, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Am I to conclude that what I've said means nothing to you? How so? And what right do you have to differentiate? Or, are you trying to suggest differentiation has nothing to do with it?

Someone's pinched my coat.

I am just battling to see the link between differentiating between two things and their "meaning". As pointed out by Hans the ability to differentiate is a pretty important factor in our continued survivial. I took it to the extreme by referring to brushing my teeth with a lawnmower but an element of "common sense" as you called it is the ability to differentiate between which is the right tool to use and which is the wrong.

I fail to see how the judgement call that differentiation requires is designed to establish something's meaning. Surely it is rather intended to establish what is the best course of action to take based on the nature of the thing being considered.

Now the above may be well wide of the mark and over simplistic but that is why I was looking for clarity from you as to more precisely what you meant.

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh

I'm afraid I dont follow...

Doesn't meaning in fact follow suit with everything? Sort of like our shadow, which follows us around wherever we go? In other words what's the whole purpose of the English language (with all its semantics) if not to convey meaning?

Quote:

A very good question because I think it elaborates on the concept of "meaning". Does "meaning" refer to something cosmic (in the sense of a God), or is meaning something personal which will vary according to whomever you ask?

But isn't meaning merely a value we place on things based upon their differences? In which case why not ask where it begins and where it ends?

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Of course.

Of course.

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MRC_Hans

Nonsense and straw-man.

Bye.

Hans

Good riddens to that which is meaningless and worthless.

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beancounter

I fail to see how the judgement call that differentiation requires is designed to establish something's meaning. Surely it is rather intended to establish what is the best course of action to take based on the nature of the thing being considered.

Well then, by all means, brush your teeth with a lawn mower! ... See if I care!

Don't you realize how ridiculous that sounds? But then again, if it actually meant something?

Beancounter · 23rd June 2004, 04:14 AM

Ok, I've found my coat.

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beancounter

I fail to see how the judgement call that differentiation requires is designed to establish something's meaning. Surely it is rather intended to establish what is the best course of action to take based on the nature of the thing being considered.

Oh yeah, it can also mean the difference between life and death if we're not careful.

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MRC_Hans

Well, I don't KNOW of course, but I find it likely that we were "given" the ability to discern by evolution, because it makes one heck of a survival factor. The fact that there are differences can in no logical way lead to the conclusion that there is meaning.

Hans

Would you conclude then, that survival has something to do with the meaning of existence? Which is, afterall that which has survived, right? In other words by the very fact that it exists imparts it has meaning doesn't it? Otherwise why discuss it? ... i.e., that which is meaningless.

Yahweh · 23rd June 2004, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Doesn't meaning in fact follow suit with everything? Sort of like our shadow, which follows us around wherever we go? In other words what's the whole purpose of the English language (with all its semantics) if not to convey meaning?

Ah, I understand now. Yes, you are correct

Quote:

But isn't meaning merely the value placed on things based upon their differences?

Meaning can be anything and come from anyone. One million bananas means "one million bananas" to me, but it may mean something entirely new to a person who exchanges bananas as currency (in other words, one's personal circumstances, from native language to preferred operating system, can easily affect the meaning of things). Or at least if you believe meaning is subjective...

Wudang · 23rd June 2004, 05:03 AM

You use too many meanings of meaning. What meaning of meaning do you mean? If you disagree then the meaning of life can be found in a dictionary.

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh

Ah, I understand now. Yes, you are correct

Meaning can be anything and come from anyone. One million bananas means "one million bananas" to me, but it may mean something entirely new to a person who exchanges bananas as currency (in other words, one's personal circumstances, from native language to preferred operating system, can easily affect the meaning of things). Or at least if you believe meaning is subjective...

So what? What would it mean if there was nothing to differentiate? If a tree fell in the woods and there was no one there (human) to witness it, would it still make a noise?

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wudang

You use too many meanings of meaning. What meaning of meaning do you mean? If you disagree then the meaning of life can be found in a dictionary.

How about the meaning which entails everything? Or, how about the meaning which is derived from the significance of existence?

The Don · 23rd June 2004, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
So what? What would it mean if there was nothing to differentiate? If a tree fell in the woods and there was no one there (human) to witness it, would it still make a noise?

Yes,

Gosh that was easy.

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So what you seem to be suggesting is that Evolution is what instills ultimate meaning in life, right?

Why does there have to be a meaning ? A lot of people who consider themselves spritual labour under the misapprehension that there has to be a greater meaning to life. After all we couldn't all be put here just to procreate and to become a source of food for worms, right ? I mean there has to be a greater purpose doesn't there ?

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 05:26 AM

Doesn't the significance of existence have meaning to you? Do you have any issues with dying by any chance?

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Don

Why does there have to be a meaning ? A lot of people who consider themselves spritual labour under the misapprehension that there has to be a greater meaning to life. After all we couldn't all be put here just to procreate and to become a source of food for worms, right ? I mean there has to be a greater purpose doesn't there ?

Yes, and do you realize that you're using the word meaning to convey that the word meaning is meaningless?

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 05:37 AM

So, it's through the means of Science that we have been unable to establish that an ultimate meaning of life exists. However, is that to suggest that an ultimate meaning of life doesn't exist?

Tricky · 23rd June 2004, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
So, it's through the means of Science that we have been unable to establish that an ultimate meaning of life exists.

The scientific method doesn't determine the meaning of anything, just how it works.

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
However, is that to suggest that an ultimate meaning of life doesn't exist?

I suggest that since neither you nor anyone else can agree on an ultimate meaning, that the term is... er... meaningless.

You find your own meanings in life. I find mine. No matter how hard you wish for it, there isn't a universal one.

Come. Live with us in the real world. It's not such a bad place.

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tricky

The scientific method doesn't determine the meaning of anything, just how it works.

It definitely has its means though doesn't it?

Quote:

I suggest that since neither you nor anyone else can agree on an ultimate meaning, that the term is... er... meaningless.

There's only one Universe, and it all comes from the same place, regardless of what us humans care to call it.

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You find your own meanings in life. I find mine. No matter how hard you wish for it, there isn't a universal one.

And yet to suggest that such a thing has no beginning or an end is absurd.

Quote:

Come. Live with us in the real world. It's not such a bad place.

What, and live in a world without meaning? Now you tell me which is more real?

Piscivore · 23rd June 2004, 09:47 AM

This is what I mean when I name you "Lord High Equivocator", but the meaning doesn't mean I intend to be mean.

Beleth · 23rd June 2004, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
What is discernment, if not the ability to differentiate? Why differentiate if not to determine the value or meaning of something? Indeed, why is the whole Universe set up so that we can differentiate and evaluate each and every thing there is? Could it be because there's a genuine purpose behind our being here? Or else why would the Universe be wrought with meaning through and through?

Why is this even a question? If we live in a universe with a purpose, and we're so good at discerning that we can differentiate everything, why can't we discern what the purpose is?

Is it possible to discern the difference(s) between a universe filled with meaning and with an ultimate purpose, and a universe filled with meaning but with no ultimate purpose itself? If not, why not? If so, why do we have such a hard time telling which one we live in?

jimlintott · 23rd June 2004, 10:34 AM

Why does it have to be any more complicated than, can I eat this, can I sleep here and where can I find another to breed with?

The answers to all your questions may actually be 'inside the box'.

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beleth

Why is this even a question? If we live in a universe with a purpose, and we're so good at discerning that we can differentiate everything, why can't we discern what the purpose is?

Is it possible to discern the difference(s) between a universe filled with meaning and with an ultimate purpose, and a universe filled with meaning but with no ultimate purpose itself? If not, why not? If so, why do we have such a hard time telling which one we live in?

But why do we have the propensity to ask? Indeed, to suggest that everything has its own meaning but, that no ultimate meaning exists -- for example, in the way the constituent parts of the human body which, have no meaning in and of themselves, come together to form a whole human being -- sounds completely absurd! In fact without a sense of wholeness to understand the relationship between the constituent parts, there would be no meaning.

Contrary to what Science may believe, with its propensity to dissect and catalog everything to the single last detail, human beings were perfectly capable of functioning properly before it came along. And yes, that included a life which had meaning.

Wudang · 23rd June 2004, 12:32 PM

Snort.
ut why do we have the propensity to punch each other in the teeth? Indeed, to suggest that everything has its own meaning but, that no ultimate meaning exists -- for example, in the way the constituent parts of the human body which, have no meaning in and of themselves, come together to form a whole human being -- sounds completely absurd! In fact without a sense of wholeness to understand the relationship between the constituent parts, there would be no reason to punch each other in the teeth.

Contrary to what Science may believe, with its propensity to dissect and catalog everything to the single last detail, human beings were perfectly capable of punching each other in the teeth before it came along. And yes, that included a life which had punching each other in the teeth

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimlintott

Why does it have to be any more complicated than, can I eat this, can I sleep here and where can I find another to breed with?

The answers to all your questions may actually be 'inside the box'.

Yes, and would a robot require any more than that from its program?

Iacchus · 23rd June 2004, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wudang

Contrary to what Science may believe, with its propensity to dissect and catalog everything to the single last detail, human beings were perfectly capable of punching each other in the teeth before it came along. And yes, that included a life which had punching each other in the teeth

Yes, even a drunken brawl can have a sense of meaning.

Of course most wouldn't consider that meaning in its higher sense, unless of course one were a dead drunk.

Wudang · 23rd June 2004, 01:02 PM

Yes, even a drunken debate can have people punching each other in the teeth . Of course most wouldn't consider that punching each other in the teeth in its higher sense, unless of course one were a drunk bullsh*tter.

Beleth · 23rd June 2004, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
[T]o suggest that everything has its own meaning but, that no ultimate meaning exists -- for example, in the way the constituent parts of the human body which, have no meaning in and of themselves, come together to form a whole human being -- sounds completely absurd!

And yet, arguing that there must be a meaning to something, but not knowing what that meaning is, is equally absurd.

We know what meaning the parts of the human body have, and we know what meaning the whole human body has. Why don't we know what meaning the entire universe has?

23rd June 2004, 02:24 AM	#1
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	What is Discernment? What is discernment, if not the ability to differentiate? Why differentiate if not to determine the value or meaning of something? Indeed, why is the whole Universe set up so that we can differentiate and evaluate each and every thing there is? Could it be because there's a genuine purpose behind our being here? Or else why would the Universe be wrought with meaning through and through? Is that to say there's nothing coherent about the Universe, which brings it all into focus, an ultimate meaning in other words? What is the meaning of a human body, with the sum total of its parts? Certainly not a lack of coherence, right? What is meaning without consciousness? And how could we discern otherwise?

23rd June 2004, 02:34 AM	#2
Beancounter Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2004 Location: Firmly on planet Earth Posts: 422	Iacchus Is this one thread or 15?
	__________________ "It is undesirable to to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true" Bertrand Russell

23rd June 2004, 02:34 AM	#3
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,604	Mmm, and your point is? Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

23rd June 2004, 02:42 AM	#4
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029	Re: What is Discernment? Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus *Why differentiate if not to determine the value or meaning* of something? Discernment is also useful if you wish to organize, to catergorize, or identify things. Quote: What is meaning without consciousness? A definition? Quote: And how could we discern otherwise?** By awaking from deep sleep.
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029

23rd June 2004, 02:54 AM	#6
Beancounter Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2004 Location: Firmly on planet Earth Posts: 422	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus Just asking why we're given the ability to discern and differentiate between things if not for the sake of establishing their meaning. And I don't necessarily mean in the human sense either, because if there was no difference between one thing and the next there would be nothing here. So in that sense everything must be comprised of meaning. Meaning? I differentiate between things to make sure I don't brush my teeth with the lawnmower. I am sure I am trivialising your question but due to my unphilosophical mind I need a bit more clarification (if I am to continue in the thread, which may not be your preference anyway )
	__________________ "It is undesirable to to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true" Bertrand Russell

23rd June 2004, 02:47 AM	#5
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by MRC_Hans Mmm, and your point is? Hans Just asking why we're given the ability to discern and differentiate between things if not for the sake of establishing their meaning. And I don't necessarily mean in the human sense either, because if there was no difference between one thing and the next there would be nothing here. So in that sense everything must be comprised of meaning.

23rd June 2004, 02:58 AM	#7
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Discernment is also useful if you wish to organize, to catergorize, or identify things. Yes, and each of these has meaning in its own right. Quote: A definition? To whom? Quote: By awaking from deep sleep. And then we would be conscious, right?

23rd June 2004, 03:02 AM	#8
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Beancounter Meaning? I differentiate between things to make sure I don't brush my teeth with the lawnmower. Common sense? Quote: I am sure I am trivialising your question but due to my unphilosophical mind I need a bit more clarification (if I am to continue in the thread, which may not be your preference anyway ) Well, if it has no meaning to you, why bother?

23rd June 2004, 03:03 AM	#9
Beancounter Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2004 Location: Firmly on planet Earth Posts: 422	I'll get my coat...
	__________________ "It is undesirable to to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true" Bertrand Russell

23rd June 2004, 03:15 AM	#10
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,604	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus Just asking why we're given the ability to discern and differentiate between things if not for the sake of establishing their meaning. And I don't necessarily mean in the human sense either, because if there was no difference between one thing and the next there would be nothing here. So in that sense everything must be comprised of meaning. Well, I don't KNOW of course, but I find it likely that we were "given" the ability to discern by evolution, because it makes one heck of a survival factor. The fact that there are differences can in no logical way lead to the conclusion that there is meaning. Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

23rd June 2004, 03:23 AM	#11
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Beancounter I'll get my coat... Am I to conclude that what I've said means nothing to you? How so? And what right do you have to differentiate? Or, are you trying to suggest differentiation has nothing to do with it?

23rd June 2004, 03:31 AM	#12
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus *Yes, and each of these has meaning* in its own right. I'm afraid I dont follow... Quote: To whom?** A very good question because I think it elaborates on the concept of "meaning". Does "meaning" refer to something cosmic (in the sense of a God), or is meaning something personal which will vary according to whomever you ask? Quote: And then we would be conscious, right? Of course.
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029

23rd June 2004, 03:33 AM	#13
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by MRC_Hans Well, I don't KNOW of course, but I find it likely that we were "given" the ability to discern by evolution, because it makes one heck of a survival factor. The fact that there are differences can in no logical way lead to the conclusion that there is meaning. Then what's your point, if it has no meaning? So what you seem to be suggesting is that Evolution is what instills ultimate meaning in life, right?

23rd June 2004, 03:35 AM	#14
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,604	Nonsense and straw-man. Bye. Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

23rd June 2004, 03:39 AM	#15
Beancounter Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2004 Location: Firmly on planet Earth Posts: 422	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus *Am I to conclude that what I've said means* nothing to you? How so? And what right do you have to differentiate? Or, are you trying to suggest differentiation has nothing to do with it?** Someone's pinched my coat. I am just battling to see the link between differentiating between two things and their "meaning". As pointed out by Hans the ability to differentiate is a pretty important factor in our continued survivial. I took it to the extreme by referring to brushing my teeth with a lawnmower but an element of "common sense" as you called it is the ability to differentiate between which is the right tool to use and which is the wrong. I fail to see how the judgement call that differentiation requires is designed to establish something's meaning. Surely it is rather intended to establish what is the best course of action to take based on the nature of the thing being considered. Now the above may be well wide of the mark and over simplistic but that is why I was looking for clarity from you as to more precisely what you meant.
	__________________ "It is undesirable to to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true" Bertrand Russell

23rd June 2004, 03:50 AM	#16
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Yahweh I'm afraid I dont follow... Doesn't meaning in fact follow suit with everything? Sort of like our shadow, which follows us around wherever we go? In other words what's the whole purpose of the English language (with all its semantics) if not to convey meaning? Quote: A very good question because I think it elaborates on the concept of "meaning". Does "meaning" refer to something cosmic (in the sense of a God), or is meaning something personal which will vary according to whomever you ask? But isn't meaning merely a value we place on things based upon their differences? In which case why not ask where it begins and where it ends? Quote: Of course. Of course.

23rd June 2004, 03:52 AM	#17
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by MRC_Hans Nonsense and straw-man. Bye. Hans Good riddens to that which is meaningless and worthless.

23rd June 2004, 04:09 AM	#18
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Beancounter I fail to see how the judgement call that differentiation requires is designed to establish something's meaning. Surely it is rather intended to establish what is the best course of action to take based on the nature of the thing being considered. Well then, by all means, brush your teeth with a lawn mower! ... See if I care! Don't you realize how ridiculous that sounds? But then again, if it actually meant something?

23rd June 2004, 04:14 AM	#19
Beancounter Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2004 Location: Firmly on planet Earth Posts: 422	Ok, I've found my coat.
	__________________ "It is undesirable to to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true" Bertrand Russell

23rd June 2004, 04:15 AM	#20
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Beancounter I fail to see how the judgement call that differentiation requires is designed to establish something's meaning. Surely it is rather intended to establish what is the best course of action to take based on the nature of the thing being considered. Oh yeah, it can also mean the difference between life and death if we're not careful.

23rd June 2004, 04:29 AM	#21
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by MRC_Hans Well, I don't KNOW of course, but I find it likely that we were "given" the ability to discern by evolution, because it makes one heck of a survival factor. The fact that there are differences can in no logical way lead to the conclusion that there is meaning. Hans Would you conclude then, that survival has something to do with the meaning of existence? Which is, afterall that which has survived, right? In other words by the very fact that it exists imparts it has meaning doesn't it? Otherwise why discuss it? ... i.e., that which is meaningless.

23rd June 2004, 04:50 AM	#22
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus Doesn't meaning in fact follow suit with everything? Sort of like our shadow, which follows us around wherever we go? In other words what's the whole purpose of the English language (with all its semantics) if not to convey meaning? Ah, I understand now. Yes, you are correct Quote: But isn't meaning merely the value placed on things based upon their differences? Meaning can be anything and come from anyone. One million bananas means "one million bananas" to me, but it may mean something entirely new to a person who exchanges bananas as currency (in other words, one's personal circumstances, from native language to preferred operating system, can easily affect the meaning of things). Or at least if you believe meaning is subjective...
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029

23rd June 2004, 05:03 AM	#23
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Sheffield Posts: 8,320	You use too many meanings of meaning. What meaning of meaning do you mean? If you disagree then the meaning of life can be found in a dictionary.
	__________________ Aphorism: Subjects most likely to be declared inappropriate for humor are the ones most in need of it. -epepke

23rd June 2004, 05:17 AM	#24
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Ah, I understand now. Yes, you are correct Meaning can be anything and come from anyone. One million bananas means "one million bananas" to me, but it may mean something entirely new to a person who exchanges bananas as currency (in other words, one's personal circumstances, from native language to preferred operating system, can easily affect the meaning of things). Or at least if you believe meaning is subjective... So what? What would it mean if there was nothing to differentiate? If a tree fell in the woods and there was no one there (human) to witness it, would it still make a noise?

23rd June 2004, 05:20 AM	#25
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Wudang You use too many meanings of meaning. What meaning of meaning do you mean? If you disagree then the meaning of life can be found in a dictionary. How about the meaning which entails everything? Or, how about the meaning which is derived from the significance of existence?

23rd June 2004, 05:24 AM	#26
The Don Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cymru Posts: 8,569	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus *So what? What would it mean if there was nothing* to differentiate? If a tree fell in the woods and there was no one there (human) to witness it, would it still make a noise?** Yes, Gosh that was easy. Quote: So what you seem to be suggesting is that Evolution is what instills ultimate meaning in life, right? Why does there have to be a meaning ? A lot of people who consider themselves spritual labour under the misapprehension that there has to be a greater meaning to life. After all we couldn't all be put here just to procreate and to become a source of food for worms, right ? I mean there has to be a greater purpose doesn't there ?

23rd June 2004, 05:26 AM	#27
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Doesn't the significance of existence have meaning to you? Do you have any issues with dying by any chance?

23rd June 2004, 05:32 AM	#28
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by The Don Why does there have to be a meaning ? A lot of people who consider themselves spritual labour under the misapprehension that there has to be a greater meaning to life. After all we couldn't all be put here just to procreate and to become a source of food for worms, right ? I mean there has to be a greater purpose doesn't there ? Yes, and do you realize that you're using the word meaning to convey that the word meaning is meaningless?

23rd June 2004, 05:37 AM	#29
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	So, it's through the means of Science that we have been unable to establish that an ultimate meaning of life exists. However, is that to suggest that an ultimate meaning of life doesn't exist?

23rd June 2004, 05:47 AM	#30
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,406	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus *So, it's through the means* of Science that we have been unable to establish that an ultimate meaning of life exists.** The scientific method doesn't determine the meaning of anything, just how it works. Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus However, is that to suggest that an ultimate meaning of life doesn't exist? I suggest that since neither you nor anyone else can agree on an ultimate meaning, that the term is... er... meaningless. You find your own meanings in life. I find mine. No matter how hard you wish for it, there isn't a universal one. Come. Live with us in the real world. It's not such a bad place.

23rd June 2004, 05:59 AM	#31
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Tricky *The scientific method doesn't determine the meaning* of anything, just how it works.** It definitely has its means though doesn't it? Quote: I suggest that since neither you nor anyone else can agree on an ultimate meaning, that the term is... er... meaningless. There's only one Universe, and it all comes from the same place, regardless of what us humans care to call it. Quote: You find your own meanings in life. I find mine. No matter how hard you wish for it, there isn't a universal one. And yet to suggest that such a thing has no beginning or an end is absurd. Quote: Come. Live with us in the real world. It's not such a bad place. What, and live in a world without meaning? Now you tell me which is more real?

23rd June 2004, 09:47 AM	#32
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,564	This is what I mean when I name you "Lord High Equivocator", but the meaning doesn't mean I intend to be mean.
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23rd June 2004, 10:01 AM	#33
Beleth FAQ Creator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Not in a cave Posts: 4,134	Re: What is Discernment? Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus What is discernment, if not the ability to differentiate? Why differentiate if not to determine the value or meaning of something? Indeed, why is the whole Universe set up so that we can differentiate and evaluate each and every thing there is? Could it be because there's a genuine purpose behind our being here? Or else why would the Universe be wrought with meaning through and through? Why is this even a question? If we live in a universe with a purpose, and we're so good at discerning that we can differentiate everything, why can't we discern what the purpose is? Is it possible to discern the difference(s) between a universe filled with meaning and with an ultimate purpose, and a universe filled with meaning but with no ultimate purpose itself? If not, why not? If so, why do we have such a hard time telling which one we live in?
	__________________ Administrator and Head Moderator, The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe Forum Big Fan, Stop Sylvia Browne I will come back only after the words "Hi, Nyarl!" are returned to the post http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...5&postcount=14 .

23rd June 2004, 10:34 AM	#34
jimlintott Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 2,894	Why does it have to be any more complicated than, can I eat this, can I sleep here and where can I find another to breed with? The answers to all your questions may actually be 'inside the box'.
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23rd June 2004, 12:10 PM	#35
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Beleth Why is this even a question? If we live in a universe with a purpose, and we're so good at discerning that we can differentiate everything, why can't we discern what the purpose is? Is it possible to discern the difference(s) between a universe filled with meaning and with an ultimate purpose, and a universe filled with meaning but with no ultimate purpose itself? If not, why not? If so, why do we have such a hard time telling which one we live in? But why do we have the propensity to ask? Indeed, to suggest that everything has its own meaning but, that no ultimate meaning exists -- for example, in the way the constituent parts of the human body which, have no meaning in and of themselves, come together to form a whole human being -- sounds completely absurd! In fact without a sense of wholeness to understand the relationship between the constituent parts, there would be no meaning. Contrary to what Science may believe, with its propensity to dissect and catalog everything to the single last detail, human beings were perfectly capable of functioning properly before it came along. And yes, that included a life which had meaning.