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Old 6th January 2013, 06:26 PM   #121
EHocking
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
While the fatalities are few the attacks and injuries are numerous.
150 in 73 years doesn't seem numerous to me. Your claim was hundreds every year.
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These guys know the risk as does my GF who has a biology degree and numerous encounters when she was researching rain forest trees.

their opening statement about preferring a to be in with a 1 ton croc than the cassowary says it all.
Indeed. I supports my criticism that the "danger" from attacks by cassowary are sensationalist claptrap and unsupported by facts.
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Exactly my point. Sensationalism unsupported by facts. The idiot climbs into an enclosure and goads the cassowary to defend itself. This is not an attack, this is not science and nor does it support the assertion that 100s of attacks occur each year.
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Here is a well done article and it confirms your point about fatalities but the number of attacks and injuries make it a very risky proposition
This is merely requoting the Qld Museum paper I cited in my previous post - obviously you didn't read it if you think that your "cite" told me something new.
Note that it does not support the assertion of numerous (100s) of attacks by cassowaries each year - quite the opposite.
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this is where we stayed and I filmed the bird in my videos from a spot above on the back porch - dumb luck - I forgot my spare battery and went back and saw movement in the bush. There had not been any seen for three months.

http://www.amazingaustralia.com.au/a...ry-attacks.htm
So this chronicles 5 "attacks" (one in a zoo) in; 1926, 1995, 2001, 2003, 20012.
This is not 100s a year.
Quote:
These articles merely quote from the paper I cited in a previous post - none of them point to 100s of attacks by cassowaries each year.

The assertion that these birds are so dangerous are exaggerations bordering on folklore.
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Lucky they are fruit eaters
..... waits for the (incorrect) allusion that Hitler was also a vegetarian.

Luck has nothing to do with it.
The data discussed so far shows that Cassowaries hardly ever attack people unprovoked, hardly ever injure them and that their fearsome reputation is exaggerated beyond even what Steve Irwin could manage in his prime.
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Last edited by EHocking; 6th January 2013 at 07:24 PM. Reason: quoting, sleping
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Old 6th January 2013, 08:06 PM   #122
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There were over 100 documented attacks in 1999 alone. Same pattern as your fracking defense . And just as wrong.

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In 1999 there were 144 documented cassowary attacks on humans in Australia,
http://animals.jrank.org/pages/363/C...RODUCTION.html

Next time you are up close and personal be sure to put it on ignore...after all it's getting a rum reputation.
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Old 7th January 2013, 12:55 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
My children scoff when I tell them that one of the things I want to do is to hear a tiger's roar. Not the roar of annoyance you might here in the zoo because pesky tourists are bothering it, but the roar of the beast closing in.
From what I understand tigers are (or try to be) dead silent while closing in. Same like all big cats.

Anyway, I don't think that roars have another mechanism for paralyzing humans other than perhaps the general Fear Paralysis Reflex. Some antelopes freeze when they hear/see/smell something that could be a predator. Those are usually antelopes that inhabit forests or thick bush habitats and they try to blend into vegetation by staying still, sometimes until the predator is really too close. I suppose the same could be a reflex that humans inherited from their arboreal or semi-arboreal ancestors but in any case it would more probably be advantageous to the hunted rather than the hunter.

There's not any advantage in freezing to a plains antelope; it's not very wise to assume that the predator hasn't seen it.
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Old 7th January 2013, 02:36 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
There were over 100 documented attacks in 1999 alone.
So show us the documentation.
A random, unreferenced article from some free online "encylopedia" is not documentation.
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Same pattern as your fracking defense . And just as wrong.

http://animals.jrank.org/pages/363/C...RODUCTION.html
This is not a cite of a scientific paper, this is a quote from some free online "encylopedia" - no actual references to the source of this "evidence" is given - you are just taking their word that they've done some research.

10 will get you 1 is that they are misquoting the paper I cited which was first published in 1999 and that third sentence under "Attack of the Big Bird", instead of reading;
"In 1999 there were 144 documented cassowary attacks on humans in Australia, six causing serious injury."
should probably read
"There were 144 cassowary attacks on humans in Australia, six causing serious injury, documented in 1999."
Quote:
Next time you are up close and personal be sure to put it on ignore...after all it's getting a rum reputation.
Feel free to supply the scientific evidence that supports the assertion that 100s of attacks occur each year.
So far you've only supplied unreferenced internet blog content.

I'll be happy to be corrected as this would be pertinent to this thread;
are attacks on humans increasing and what is the cause?
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Old 7th January 2013, 05:04 AM   #125
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Here is a paper on cassowary attacks on humans, and here is the abstract:

"Abstract


The southern cassowary Casuarius casuarius johnsonii is endemic to the tropical rainforests of north-eastern Queensland, Australia. This species is Australia's largest bird and holds a reputation for being dangerous. Cassowaries and ostriches are the only birds world-wide that have caused human deaths by physical attack. Incidents occur every year in Queensland, most at Mission Beach (110 km south of Cairns) and Lake Barrine (39 km south-west of Cairns), but previously also at Mount Whitfield in Cairns. The incidence of cassowary attacks in Queensland is reviewed. Data were obtained for 221 cassowary attacks, of which 150 were against humans, 75% of these by cassowaries fed previously by people. The feeding of cassowaries appears to change their natural behaviour, making them bold and aggressive. Victims were chased or charged in 71% of the incidents, and kicked in 15%. Less frequent actions included pushing, pecking, jumping on, butting with the head and snatching food. The cassowaries appeared to be expecting or soliciting food from humans (73% of the incidents), defending food (5%), and defending themselves (15%) or their chicks or eggs (7%). Contrary to popular belief, jogging did not incite cassowaries to attack. Although cassowaries should not be considered dangerous, they can cause serious injuries. Seven attacks against humans resulted in serious injuries (puncture wounds, lacerations, broken bone) and subsequently one death, caused by cassowaries kicking or jumping on victims. In the single fatal attack, the victim was trying to kill the cassowary. Four of the seven seriously injured victims were crouching or lying on the ground.
"

So, 150 incidents over the years*, and about 110 of those from birds that were used to being fed by humans. One death, 6 other serious injuries. The one death was a 16 year old who was trying to beat the cassowary to death with a club, fell over, and got kicked on the neck.

The near-universal truth is that feeding wild animals leads to trouble. There are habituated baboons, elephants, monkeys, hyaenas, and many other animals killed every year as a result of becoming dangerous after regular feeding by humans. It doesn't surprise me that cassowaries fall into the same category.

* The Telegraph reports this as "since records began", and with incidents recorded in 1926, records by implication began at least 87 years ago. At that rate, there are less than 2 attacks on people per year, on average.

Mike

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Old 7th January 2013, 06:43 AM   #126
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That is the paper I referenced in my first post, #111
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Old 7th January 2013, 07:58 AM   #127
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I know. I just don't think people were pursuing the argument in full possession of the facts. In other words, I don't think everyone read it.

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Old 7th January 2013, 08:24 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Bit of a tangent, perhaps, but it seems the thread has gone that way, and since we seem to have some big cat experts here, I thought I would ask a question I have had for many years.

Does a tiger's roar literally paralyze a human with fear, i.e., does the roar do more than simply impart the already terrifying knowledge that a virtually unstoppable man-eater is nearby? Is there something physiological/biological behind it that works in the tiger's favor?

This isn't where I first heard it, but this link summarizes what I heard years ago.

My children scoff when I tell them that one of the things I want to do is to hear a tiger's roar. Not the roar of annoyance you might here in the zoo because pesky tourists are bothering it, but the roar of the beast closing in. Of course, I would prefer to hear it while safely enclosed in a super-ultra-tested and ultra-song tiger-proof cage with armed guards around....
A tiger's roar is communicative. I've never heard the tiger "bark", which is a territorial warning. I've been roared at by one of our resident females who simply doesn't like me, and while it's not petrifying, it is very scary, even with fences in between. I've heard the same roar among tigers having a common spat.

One of the white tigers does growl a certain way when chomping down on a turkey, but I wouldn't call that a roar per se. And also, being a white tiger, he's a little retarded, so how much of his behavior is natural is up for debate.

If you really want to test it, there are ways. I just wouldn't recommend them, and not just for your protection. Attacks on humans aren't good things for tigers to get a taste for. It's usually fatal for the tigers in the long run, and stressful if they attack out of fear or anger rather than for food. Tigers are capable of remorse and guilt, after all.

As far as the tiger's roar paralyzing, I honestly don't know enough to say one way or the other. I wouldn't rule it out, and I've heard of something similar with lions and their prey - it would make sense. A stunned animal is less likely to injure a predator.
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Old 7th January 2013, 09:17 AM   #129
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Apparently ( just read a big game hunters book - mostly he was culling and hunting man eaters ) - the leopard is the nastiest as there is no warning when they attack - complete silence.
He didn't hunt tigers so can't comment.

I doubt very much any hunting animal "roars".
That's territorial and communication....they save there breath for the chase.
A cornered animal might try and intimidate as a warning.

Not sure on bears tho - they do seem to roar when attacking - grizzlies etc.
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Old 7th January 2013, 10:23 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by macdoc
I doubt very much any hunting animal "roars".
No solitary hunter, certainly. Dogs and wolves will bark and growl and snarl to goad the prey in the direction the canids want them to go, but that's a completely different hunting style.

Again, the definition of an attack is ambiguous. Is it an attack when they're engaged in hunting behavior? Or is an attack a defensive behavior? They both use the same tactics (there's only so many things you can do with claws and teeth), but they're fundamentally different activities.
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Old 7th January 2013, 10:25 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
Apparently ( just read a big game hunters book - mostly he was culling and hunting man eaters ) - the leopard is the nastiest as there is no warning when they attack - complete silence.
He didn't hunt tigers so can't comment.

I doubt very much any hunting animal "roars".
That's territorial and communication....they save there breath for the chase.
A cornered animal might try and intimidate as a warning.

Not sure on bears tho - they do seem to roar when attacking - grizzlies etc.
Leopards are extremely dangerous, even among big cats. Your average African leopard can haul a 200lb man straight up a 20' tree by his neck. And they're good, furthermore. They specialize in stealth and speed due to being solo hunters in a land of lions and hyenas.

The Masai Mara have a sort of understanding with the lions, but leopards are despised.

All that said, yes, leopards will become very vocal both as a warning and an advertisement for mating (during which they are equally vocal).

Here is some good stuff on leopards and lions from the Jouberts: http://www.ted.com/talks/beverly_der..._big_cats.html
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Old 7th January 2013, 10:45 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
.........The Masai Mara have a sort of understanding with the lions, but leopards are despised. ......
I think you mean the people, not the place! So that will be the Masai.

Mike
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Old 7th January 2013, 11:26 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I think you mean the people, not the place! So that will be the Masai.

Mike
Of course!
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Old 7th January 2013, 07:38 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I know. I just don't think people were pursuing the argument in full possession of the facts. In other words, I don't think everyone read it.

Mike
Oh - my bad.

I agree and this is my gripe. While it may seem that my objection is "someone is wrong on the internet", the point was that exaggerations and ignorance of actual animal behaviour can be detrimental to the animal and lead to unwarranted persecution.

Everyone "knows" that Wedge-tailed Eagles and Dingos take lambs - so farmers shoot them indiscriminantly. The latter even had a bounty on them. They ignore all scientific studies that show that the eagles' diet constist predominantly of rabbits. An introduced pet in Australia and the eradication or control of them is to a cockies advantage.

But no. Eagles take lambs so shoot them on site.

Same with the Cassowary.
It is well "known" that they are a dangerous bird that attacks 100s each year - despite there being no evidence for such a slight.
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Old 8th January 2013, 01:15 AM   #135
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I agree 100%, EHocking. And not just behaviour........This happens all the time, and is the ultimate cause of death of huge numbers of animals every year. "Everyone knows" that rhino horn cures cancer/ is an aphrodisiac/ etc. "Everyone knows" that ground tiger bone gives you the strength of a tiger, and so on.

By the same token, "everyone knows" that the hippo is the most dangerous animal in Africa, and "everyone knows" that African wild dogs are cruel.

A few facts are always welcome.

Mike
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Old 8th January 2013, 02:30 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
...A few facts are always welcome...
Not always by everyone...
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Old 8th January 2013, 08:01 AM   #137
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Here's something to ponder. I was reading Stolzenburg last night regarding uncontrolled white tail deer populations in North American forests (both from the eradication of predators and forestry programs designed to boost ungulate numbers).

An average of 200 people in the US die from deer collisions annually, with $1 billion in vehicle damages. The UPI link was the best national survey I could find. That's more than have been killed by bears and cougars combined since record keeping began.

http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2012/...9171350591948/

Most other sites I found were state by state, or local stories, but they all pretty much said the same thing. Here's the take on the situation in Charlotte, NC:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...ns-on-the.html

From the link:

Quote:
“More deer are being seen in densely populated areas,” State Traffic Engineer Kevin Lacy said. “Drivers need to be alert at all times.”
While the number of overall auto crash claims has dropped by 8.5 percent in the last three years, the number of collisions involving deer is up almost 8 percent, according to State Farm Insurance.

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...#storylink=cpy
In other words, they've saturated their normal habitats.

There is also the issue of Lyme disease. While it's rarely fatal, the numbers killed by it since 1975 are comparable to those killed by cougars since the 1890s. The numbers it sickens dwarf the numbers of those attacked (not killed) by bears and cougars.

Seems the deer is the most dangerous wild mammal in the US just by its being here (and it does occasionally attack people). Hell, I've hit three of them in my life.
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Old 8th January 2013, 08:06 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I agree 100%, EHocking. And not just behaviour........This happens all the time, and is the ultimate cause of death of huge numbers of animals every year. "Everyone knows" that rhino horn cures cancer/ is an aphrodisiac/ etc. "Everyone knows" that ground tiger bone gives you the strength of a tiger, and so on.

By the same token, "everyone knows" that the hippo is the most dangerous animal in Africa, and "everyone knows" that African wild dogs are cruel.

A few facts are always welcome.

Mike
It was responsible for the extinction of the thylacine as well.
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Old 8th January 2013, 08:12 AM   #139
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Thanks to all for the comments regarding the tiger's roar along with the corrections about a stalking tiger not roaring (I should have known that; it's a 'duh' kind of thing). Still, I would like to hear the roar of a tiger in the wild. I suspect hearing one that is "merely" marking its territory as opposed to hunting me would be quite awe inspiring.
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Old 8th January 2013, 08:18 AM   #140
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Cassowary's are generally killed by traffic and loose dogs and loss of habitat - not by fear mongering..... the Queensland gov does just a fine job of making sure residents under stand the risk.
There are warnings about the danger everywhere that they are present and my family in Australia has had a number of encounters and knew how to deal with it for their safety and that of the bird.

There are always a few yahoos in any society that shoot anything that moves.

The fact is they are dangerous, wander into and around populated areas and not one bit scared or intimidated by humans is a nasty mix. Most other dangerous animals avoid humans - these don't and will wander down to a populated beach.
Not "nice birdy"....an attitude which gets people hurt just as it does with black bears and others that people don't respect as wild animals.

When a game warden prefers tangling with a 1 ton salty to a cassowary - maybe take him and the bird seriously. It's got a reputation for a reason.

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Old 8th January 2013, 08:28 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Seems the deer is the most dangerous wild mammal in the US just by its being here (and it does occasionally attack people). Hell, I've hit three of them in my life.
I don't think you can consider deer collisions to be attacks on the part of the deer. I have almost hit a few and they were trying to avoid it. The problem is that they are rarely alone but the tend to cross roads one at a time. If you are driving and see a deer cross ahead of you, slow down. There may be another getting ready to cross and your approach makes them nervous. They want to be on the side with their friends so they dash out. I had three of them cross in front of my truck early one morning in November and watched a fourth consider it before stepping back. I drove a mile down the road and climbed a tree looking down on the creek they were following. I managed to shoot one of the larger does from that herd and later got the buck that hung back and waited. They are in my freezer now.
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Old 8th January 2013, 08:35 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
.......Still, I would like to hear the roar of a tiger in the wild. I suspect hearing one that is "merely" marking its territory as opposed to hunting me would be quite awe inspiring.
I've heard a pair of big male lions roar just outside my tent. About 10 feet away. It rather concentrates your mind, let's put it like that.

Mike
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Old 8th January 2013, 08:35 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
I don't think you can consider deer collisions to be attacks on the part of the deer. I have almost hit a few and they were trying to avoid it. The problem is that they are rarely alone but the tend to cross roads one at a time. If you are driving and see a deer cross ahead of you, slow down. There may be another getting ready to cross and your approach makes them nervous. They want to be on the side with their friends so they dash out. I had three of them cross in front of my truck early one morning in November and watched a fourth consider it before stepping back. I drove a mile down the road and climbed a tree looking down on the creek they were following. I managed to shoot one of the larger does from that herd and later got the buck that hung back and waited. They are in my freezer now.
I don't consider deer collisions to be attacks, that's why I mentioned that deer do sometimes attack. My point was that just their very presence makes them more dangerous than predators that do attack. The dead person is still dead whether they were mauled by a grizzly or had a white tail go through their windshield.

Of the three deer I hit, two of them technically hit me by jumping from the woods into my door as I was passing.
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Old 8th January 2013, 08:36 AM   #144
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Yeah that would be an "encounter" - guess you are mcycler too.??



how I got my Daylong seat - from this rider's encounter.
I do think that wild animals are adapting to urban and suburban tho.
Many foxes and coyotes in the sub and ex urbs and there were deer settled into a ravine at Toronto airport.

With reduced hunting there is less fear yet some populations ( deer notably ) are way off the charts and really need some predation. Too bad there is really too much fear of wolves....they DO get a bad rap.
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Old 8th January 2013, 08:37 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Thanks to all for the comments regarding the tiger's roar along with the corrections about a stalking tiger not roaring (I should have known that; it's a 'duh' kind of thing). Still, I would like to hear the roar of a tiger in the wild. I suspect hearing one that is "merely" marking its territory as opposed to hunting me would be quite awe inspiring.
Tigers' non-aggressive roar is unmistakable. While lions sort of hoot, jaguars woof and leopards growl, tigers have a yowl.
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Old 8th January 2013, 08:39 AM   #146
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I've heard a pair of big male lions roar just outside my tent. About 10 feet away. It rather concentrates your mind, let's put it like that.

Mike
wow...I was impressed at the Washington zoo where a pair were wooing the ladies....they sure get into it - was neat to see not just hear. I'm pretty sure grizzlies roar on attack but I wonder about black bears and cougars.
Anyone got some first hand info.

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Old 8th January 2013, 08:42 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
.........While lions sort of hoot, jaguars woof and leopards growl, tigers have a yowl.
Lions hoot? Well, they have a number of different roars, for a start (as do leopards), but I've never thought of any of them as a hoot, personally. They also, growl, of course.

Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
wow...I was impressed at the Washington zoo where a pair were wooing the ladies....they sure get into it - was neat to see not just hear. .....
That's what the pair that I saw and heard were doing. There was a lioness about 30 metres away.

I've heard them many other times, and from just as close once or twice, but with just the canvas between me and them that was the most dramatic encounter.

Mike

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Old 8th January 2013, 09:04 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Polaris
In other words, they've saturated their normal habitats.

There is also the issue of Lyme disease. While it's rarely fatal, the numbers killed by it since 1975 are comparable to those killed by cougars since the 1890s. The numbers it sickens dwarf the numbers of those attacked (not killed) by bears and cougars.

Seems the deer is the most dangerous wild mammal in the US just by its being here (and it does occasionally attack people). Hell, I've hit three of them in my life.
This is no surprise to anyone who grew up in white tail country. I didn't know anyone who objected to hunting until I got to college (small town with a lot of farms around it--to put it mildly, we were aware of deer). I was dumbfounded the first time I heard someone say "How can you kill such a sweat, innocent thing like a deer?" I couldn't believe someone would say something that stupid at a university (yeah, I was a tad naive. ). Any farmer could tell you how they could stand to shoot the deer. Farmers, in my experience, have a lot of respect for animals and don't like to see them suffer. A bullet to the head is a much kinder death than starvation and disease.

But the anti-hunting crowd has a remarkable amount of pull. Deer are overpopulated by any measure. The reason is that we've increased the food exponentially and removed almost all large predators. There are all kinds of people who'd love to become predators. This is a no-brainer. I mean yeah, you can't let people shoot all the deer they can shoot--but one deer per year? Three if you know how to work the system? That isn't enough, not by a long shot.
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Old 8th January 2013, 09:04 AM   #149
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According to R. Estes, lions' vocal repertoir includes roaring, grunting, moaning, growling, snarling, hissing, spitting, meowing, purring, humming, puffing and woofing
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Old 8th January 2013, 09:26 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by El Greco View Post
According to R. Estes......
Behaviour Guide to African Mammals.........Richard Estes? Brilliant book. I asked for it for christmas, but people generally thought that socks and underpants were more important, for some reason.

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Old 8th January 2013, 09:27 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Lions hoot? Well, they have a number of different roars, for a start (as do leopards), but I've never thought of any of them as a hoot, personally. They also, growl, of course.
I mean that's the character of the roar. I get to hear the lions sound off a few times a day when I'm working. Sometimes they're very close. There's still a sturdy fence between me and them, so nothing like your canvas story. That's worth a bought beer.
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Old 8th January 2013, 09:29 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by El Greco View Post
According to R. Estes, lions' vocal repertoir includes roaring, grunting, moaning, growling, snarling, hissing, spitting, meowing, purring, humming, puffing and woofing
Purring? I thought one of the characteristics of genus panthera was that it couldn't purr. Cheetahs and cougars are supposed to be the biggest cats that do.
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Old 8th January 2013, 09:30 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
A bullet to the head is a much kinder death than starvation and disease.
While I agree with the sentiment, the headshot is not to be encouraged for hunting whitetails. A whitetail's brain is about the size of a baseball. If you miss that you could severely injure the animal resulting in a prolonged painful death. If you shoot them in the jaw they will starve to death. The heart/lung/liver kill zone is about the size of a basketball. It's much easier to hit and therefore a much more humane shot to take.

Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
I mean yeah, you can't let people shoot all the deer they can shoot--but one deer per year? Three if you know how to work the system? That isn't enough, not by a long shot.
Limits are set by state agencies. My hunt club in in two different game zones. In one, the limit is 10 and the other has no limit on antlered deer. You can buy up to 4 doe tags. I shot 5 deer this past season which ended on Jan. 1st. I could have shot a lot more but my freezer won't hold that much. I gave a lot of meat away to friends and family.
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Old 8th January 2013, 09:35 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Purring? I thought one of the characteristics of genus panthera was that it couldn't purr. Cheetahs and cougars are supposed to be the biggest cats that do.
It appears there's a newer view on the subject. From Wikipiedia:

Quote:
It was, until recent times, believed that only the cats of the Felis genus could purr.[5] However, felids of the Panthera genus (Tiger, Lion, Jaguar and Leopard) also produce sounds similar to purring, but only when exhaling. The subdivision of the Felidae into ‘purring cats’ on the one hand and ‘roaring cats ’ (i.e. non-purring) on the other, originally goes back to Owen (1834/1835) and was definitely introduced by Pocock (1916), based on a difference in hyoid anatomy. The ‘roaring cats’ (lion, Panthera leo; tiger, P. tigris; jaguar, P. onca; leopard, P. pardus) have an incompletely ossified hyoid, which according to this theory, enables them to roar but not to purr. On the other hand, the snow leopard (Uncia uncia, or P. uncia), as the fifth felid species with an incompletely ossified hyoid, purrs (Hemmer, 1972). All remaining species of the family Felidae (‘purring cats’) have a completely ossified hyoid which enables them to purr but not to roar. However, Weissengruber et al. (2002) argued that the ability of a cat species to purr is not affected by the anatomy of its hyoid, i.e. whether it is fully ossified or has a ligamentous epihyoid, and that, based on a technical acoustic definition of roaring, the presence of this vocalization type depends on specific characteristics of the vocal folds and an elongated vocal tract, the latter rendered possible by an incompletely ossified hyoid.
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Old 8th January 2013, 09:36 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
This is no surprise to anyone who grew up in white tail country. I didn't know anyone who objected to hunting until I got to college (small town with a lot of farms around it--to put it mildly, we were aware of deer). I was dumbfounded the first time I heard someone say "How can you kill such a sweat, innocent thing like a deer?" I couldn't believe someone would say something that stupid at a university (yeah, I was a tad naive. ). Any farmer could tell you how they could stand to shoot the deer. Farmers, in my experience, have a lot of respect for animals and don't like to see them suffer. A bullet to the head is a much kinder death than starvation and disease.

But the anti-hunting crowd has a remarkable amount of pull. Deer are overpopulated by any measure. The reason is that we've increased the food exponentially and removed almost all large predators. There are all kinds of people who'd love to become predators. This is a no-brainer. I mean yeah, you can't let people shoot all the deer they can shoot--but one deer per year? Three if you know how to work the system? That isn't enough, not by a long shot.
According to Stolzenburg, police are sometimes used to cull them at night with spotlights and suppressed rifles. It's not enough, by far. The food we've increased for them exponentially include rare orchids and other endangered plant life, and the saplings of future forests. There needs to be predator reintroduction - they not only reduce prey numbers, but also change prey behavior.

I did grow up in white tail country (rural WV), and my mother was (and still is) afflicted with Bambi Syndrome. It wasn't lost on her or me that the deer were getting more and more used to people. They'd stop running away from the lawn when I parked my car and got out of my car.

WRT stupid statements at university, I had a poli-sci professor (and head of that dept. at that) refer to the prewar PM of Great Britain as Wilt Chamberlain on more than one occasion.
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Old 8th January 2013, 09:38 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Behaviour Guide to African Mammals.........Richard Estes? Brilliant book. I asked for it for christmas, but people generally thought that socks and underpants were more important, for some reason.
Yep, that's it. Someone in a forum pointed out that the rangers in Ol Pejeta's Sweetwaters don't have a copy. I offered to donate one if they would accommodate me for free for a week or so
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Old 8th January 2013, 09:40 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by El Greco View Post
It appears there's a newer view on the subject. From Wikipiedia:
Interesting, I'll keep my ears open next time I'm there. There's one tiger who I suspect most likely to do it around me, if it can be done. The lions will take a little longer, they're more stand-offish.

We don't have any jaguars and the leopards spend most of their time high off the ground on platforms, but the spotted one does come down for "enrichment" (a pizza box dusted with cinnamon and coffee grounds), so if he's going to purr, that's the time he will.
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Old 8th January 2013, 09:41 AM   #158
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While I agree with the sentiment, the headshot is not to be encouraged for hunting whitetails.
Yeah, I know. And as someone who's hunted squirrels I find the justifications rather sad. My target ANIMAL is only a bit bigger than the target area on a deer--if you can't hit the dear in the brain, you probably don't need to be carrying a gun. And I've talked to deer hunters about the distance thing. For the average hunter I talked to, it's really not that much more than for squirrel hunters. In the interest of full disclosure, the hunters I know hunt in wooded areas, so you can't get too far away no matter what you want to shoot--get to a certain point and there are so many trees and so much brush in the way that the bullet will never reach it anyway.

There's always risk that you're going to miss. Sucks, but that's life--no one ever said nature was kind. And still, we're talking a death that's quicker for the animal than rotting from the inside out from disease, and it's a WHOLE lot better for the herd. I believe that we need to be predators, and I can tell you with absolute confidence that predators have been injuring animals for the past few hundred million years (while I haven't seen basal Archaeosaur predation wounds I've seen herbivorous dinosaurs with some extremely nasty ones all the way back to the Triassic). The fact that we're not the first predators in history to only kill or completely miss prey doesn't bother me too much. I mean, I'm not advocating torturing animals, and I definitely believe that you should do everything you can to minimize suffering--it's just that I acknowledge that a certain percentages of misses are going to happen, and a certain percentage of prey is going to be injured rather than killed, no matter what we do.
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Old 8th January 2013, 10:07 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
.....the leopards spend most of their time high off the ground on platforms, but the spotted one does come down for "enrichment" .......
There's another sort?

Unless you perhaps have an (almost-mythical) melanoid leopard, or an albino?

Mike
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Old 8th January 2013, 10:12 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
There's another sort?

Unless you perhaps have an (almost-mythical) melanoid leopard, or an albino?

Mike
Black leopards.
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