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Old 3rd January 2013, 09:04 PM   #81
Kestrel
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Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
Even so, this article shows violent crime in the UK going up while the US is going down...
That article gets its data from a 2003 Daily Mail article. It notes an increase in police reported crime after standards for collecting that data were improved. British Crime Survey data collected over the same period doesn't show an increase in crime.
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Old 4th January 2013, 01:30 AM   #82
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
That article gets its data from a 2003 Daily Mail article. It notes an increase in police reported crime after standards for collecting that data were improved. British Crime Survey data collected over the same period doesn't show an increase in crime.

And the actual data used in that article was up to April the previous year.
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Old 4th January 2013, 04:34 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
Even so, this article shows violent crime in the UK going up while the US is going down...
UK statistics are also going to show more dramatic changes than ones from the USA because our instances of gun crime are so rare. For example in 2011-12 there were 1,151 instances of possessing a firearm with intent to commit a crime, down from 1,385 from the previous year. That is a drop of 17%. Meanwhile homicide was 550 in 2011-12 compared to the previous year at 638, a drop of 14%.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publica...12?view=Binary

The article you linked to uses very out of date stats over a period of time that there was an increase, backed up by an article from the sensationalist UK newspaper the Daily Mail. It is reporting on firearms offences as a whole. That will include offences by lawful firearms holders who forget to renew their certificate on time and end up illegally possessing firearms. It also does not show how many offences are committed with replica firearms as the real ones are so hard to get hold of.

This is the second time an examination of a claim by an American pro gun advocate has been found wanting as it is not comparing like to like.

Here is the most reliable study in the UK, compiled by civil servants at the Home Office.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publica...12?view=Binary

Scroll down and look at the graph Figure 2.1 and see how use of a firearm offences have been falling. Use of a handgun offences alone have fallen by 44% 2003 to 2011.
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Old 4th January 2013, 06:04 AM   #84
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My next idea for the thread is to draft a list of penalties for those not in compliance with the current laws...meaning, how should those owning/carrying/using an illegally possessed firearm be punished? Also, for those selling to known criminals or "losing" guns.

I'll take some suggestions from the audience before I post an outline.
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Old 4th January 2013, 06:26 AM   #85
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Use of a firearm during a crime - 15 extra years in prison

Carrying a firearm during commission of a crime - 10 extra years in prison

Illegally having a firearm - 10 years in prison

Illegal dealing of firearms - 20 years in prison

Losing or having a gun stolen and not reporting the theft or loss - from nothing through fines and up to 5 years in prison depending on the circumstances.
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Old 4th January 2013, 09:56 AM   #86
Aulus Agerius
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Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
NYC gun laws are even stricter than the rest of the State...all guns are essentially banned in the NYC Burroughs unless you have a pretty damn good reason for having one. Jumping through hoops there is more like swimming the Hudson in December with your feet tied together and your hair on fire.

I'll have to find that link...

ETA: Here...wikipedia has the facts neatly lined up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_New_York
Doesn't this make the comparative stats even more disturbing? If NYC's licencing laws don't work, why do London's?

Nessie suggests that, in London, although there is more violent crime, firearms are simply not used as frequently and therefore violence results in fewer deaths. If this is so, then NYC's licensing laws don't prevent the use of firearms in crime in the city, I think that raises the question - why? Is this something that can be solved by extending licensing laws over a larger area (so that, for e.g. NYC's laws aren't undermined by looser neigbhouring laws) or is it that licensing laws are generally ineffective?

Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
My next idea for the thread is to draft a list of penalties for those not in compliance with the current laws...meaning, how should those owning/carrying/using an illegally possessed firearm be punished? Also, for those selling to known criminals or "losing" guns.

I'll take some suggestions from the audience before I post an outline.
I don't think that mandatory minimums and the like are likely to be helpful. They don't work in drug enforcement, I don't see that they would work in firearms enforcement. I suppose it might make sense from a prevention point of view to prohibit those who "lose" guns from owning guns. But in that net you would catch at least some people who took all reasonable precautions but nevertheless had a gun stolen from them.
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Old 4th January 2013, 10:46 AM   #87
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Alright, let's try this out....

ETA: I've added Article 6 & 7.




Originally Posted by Sabretooth's Penalties for Illegal Firearms (v1.1)


Article 1: Simple Possession
  • It shall be illegal to possess, at any time:
    • A firearm that has not been registered with the local State or Sheriff office for which the holder is residing.
    • A firearm that has been altered to change the characteristics unintented by the manufacturer and/or of which is not consistent with which the firearm was registered.
    • A firearm that has been registered with another person(s) and no permission of possession and/or transfer was given by the legal owner.
  • Penalties, if convicted, are as follows:
    • 1st Offense: No less than five (5) years incarceration.
    • 2nd Offense: No less than ten (10) years incarceration.
    • 3rd Offense: No less than twenty (20) years incarceration.
    • Any offense thereafter carries an additional 20 year imprisonment.


Article 2: Aggravated Possession I
(Possession of a legal or illegal firearm during a crime other than homicide or manslaughter, but NOT brandished)
  • It shall be illegal to possess a firearm of any type during the commission of another crime, even if the firearm is not used in a threatening manner.
  • Penalties, if convicted, are as follows:
    • 1st Offense: No less than ten (10) years incarceration.
    • 2nd Offense: No less than fifteen (15) years incarceration.
    • 3rd Offense: No less than twenty (20) years incarceration.
    • Any offense thereafter carries an additional 20 year imprisonment.
    • Additional time for illegal (non-registered) firearm added per penalties outlined in Article 1.
  • Penalties listed here are in addition to any time incurred by the initial offense(s).


Article 3: Aggravated Possession II
(Use of a legal or illegal firearm in a threatening manner, but no other crime commited)
  • It shall be illegal to use a firearm of any type in a threatening manner.
  • Penalties, if convicted, are as follows:
    • 1st Offense: No less than fifteen (15) years incarceration.
    • 2nd Offense: No less than fifteen (15) years incarceration.
    • 3rd Offense: No less than twenty (20) years incarceration.
    • Any offense thereafter carries an additional 20 year imprisonment.
    • Additional time for illegal (non-registered) firearm added per penalties outlined in Article 1.



Article 4: Aggravated Possession III
(Use of a legal or illegal firearm in a threatening manner acting in another crime.)
  • It shall be illegal to use a firearm of any type in a threatening manner while acting or participating in another crime.
  • Penalties, if convicted, are as follows:
    • 1st Offense: No less than fifteen (15) years incarceration.
    • 2nd Offense: No less than twenty (20) years incarceration.
    • 3rd Offense: No less than twenty (20) years incarceration.
    • Any offense thereafter carries an additional 20 year imprisonment.
    • Additional time for illegal (non-registered) firearm added per penalties outlined in Article 1.




Article 5: Felony Possession
(Use of a legal or illegal firearm to commit homicide or manslaughter)
  • It shall be illegal to use a firearm of any type to commit homicide, manslaughter, or attempted homicide/manslaughter.
  • Penalties, if convicted, are as follows:
    • 1st Offense: No less than thirty (30) years incarceration, with a maximum of life imprisonment.
    • 2nd Offense: No less than life in prison without parole.
    • Additional time for illegal (non-registered) firearm added per penalties outlined in Article 1.


Article 6: Unlawful Supplying of Firearm
  • It shall be illegal to purchase for; sell to; supply; or allow access of firearms to a person that cannot legally be in possession.
  • It shall be illegal to sell to a private individual without holding a Federal Firearm License (FFL). Sale of a firearm must be transfered through a Registered FFL Dealer.
  • Penalties, if convicted, are as follows:
    • 1st Offense: No less than five (5) years incarceration.
    • 2nd Offense: No less than ten (10) years incarceration.
    • 3rd Offense: No less than twenty (20) years incarceration.
    • Any offense thereafter carries an additional 20 year imprisonment.
  • Additional penalties may also include:
    • Permanent Revocation of Federal Firearm License (FFL).
    • Be required to surrender all currently owned firearms.
    • Inability to lawfully own, possess, or register firearms.


Article 7: Failure to Notify
  • Firearms that have been found to be lost through any means (theft, misplaced, etc.) MUST be reported to the local police district immediately upon discovery.
  • It is, and shall be, the firearm owner's responsibility to account for their firearms at all times.
  • Penalties, if convicted, are as follows:
    • 1st Offense: No less than two (2) years incarceration.
    • 2nd Offense: No less than five (5) years incarceration.
    • 3rd Offense: No less than ten (10) years incarceration.
    • Any offense thereafter carries an additional 10 year imprisonment.
  • Additional penalties may also include:
    • Permanent Revocation of Federal Firearm License (FFL).
    • Be required to surrender all currently owned firearms.
    • Inability to lawfully own, possess, or register firearms.


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Last edited by Sabretooth; 4th January 2013 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 4th January 2013, 11:09 AM   #88
Nessie
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Originally Posted by Aulus Agerius View Post
Doesn't this make the comparative stats even more disturbing? If NYC's licencing laws don't work, why do London's?

Nessie suggests that, in London, although there is more violent crime, firearms are simply not used as frequently and therefore violence results in fewer deaths. If this is so, then NYC's licensing laws don't prevent the use of firearms in crime in the city, I think that raises the question - why? Is this something that can be solved by extending licensing laws over a larger area (so that, for e.g. NYC's laws aren't undermined by looser neigbhouring laws) or is it that licensing laws are generally ineffective?
I am sure it down to availability. No matter what licensing laws are introduced, there are so many guns in the hands of criminals and criminals find them so easy to get hold of that the laws have no effect, as they obviously do not obey the law.

Quote:
I don't think that mandatory minimums and the like are likely to be helpful. They don't work in drug enforcement, I don't see that they would work in firearms enforcement. I suppose it might make sense from a prevention point of view to prohibit those who "lose" guns from owning guns. But in that net you would catch at least some people who took all reasonable precautions but nevertheless had a gun stolen from them.
I am sure another reason why UK criminals don't do guns so much is that they know there are pretty much mandatory minimums. A handgun was once described to me as 5 years. In the end the guy got 7 years in prison. We even lock up church ministers and members of the SAS who are found with illegally held guns. So the criminals know, use a gun and they will go away for what we regard as long periods of time in prison.
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Old 4th January 2013, 01:49 PM   #89
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Sorry, but no way you get those penalties that harsh for anything that doesn't involve a violent crime. It would never pass the muster of "cruel and unusual punishment" in the SCOTUS. Some of those possession penalties are harsher than aggravated assault and rape.
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Old 7th January 2013, 05:15 AM   #90
Aulus Agerius
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I am sure it down to availability. No matter what licensing laws are introduced, there are so many guns in the hands of criminals and criminals find them so easy to get hold of that the laws have no effect, as they obviously do not obey the law.
I think you're probably right on availability, but proving that it is down to availability is a different matter.

Quote:
I am sure another reason why UK criminals don't do guns so much is that they know there are pretty much mandatory minimums. A handgun was once described to me as 5 years. In the end the guy got 7 years in prison. We even lock up church ministers and members of the SAS who are found with illegally held guns. So the criminals know, use a gun and they will go away for what we regard as long periods of time in prison.
I disagree. I don't think that mandatory minimum sentence help: criminals do not commit crimes in the expectation of being caught. However, the length of sentences in the UK demonstrates something else: firearms offenses are regarded as very serious, by society in general. In the U.S. I have the impression (which may or may not be right) that illegal possession of a firearm would be regarded as something of a peccadillo. I think it is the attitude that matters, rather than minimum sentences.
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Old 7th January 2013, 05:36 AM   #91
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I'm surprised more folks haven't rung in on the "penalty" ideas I laid out. Surely, someone other than StankApe has an opinion on this?
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Old 7th January 2013, 06:15 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
Sorry, but no way you get those penalties that harsh for anything that doesn't involve a violent crime. It would never pass the muster of "cruel and unusual punishment" in the SCOTUS. Some of those possession penalties are harsher than aggravated assault and rape.
If SCOTUS believed that long prison terms for non-violent crimes were cruel and unusual, most of our drug sentencing laws would have been overturned.
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Old 7th January 2013, 03:00 PM   #93
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our possession laws aren't that punitive, it's our distribution laws that carry a punch. If his above list of penalties applied lower sentences for possession of an illegal firearm and bigger one's for intent to distribute an illegal firearm, maybe you'd have something.
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Old 8th January 2013, 07:19 AM   #94
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
Article 2: Aggravated Possession I
(Possession of a legal or illegal firearm during a crime other than homicide or manslaughter, but NOT brandished)
It shall be illegal to possess a firearm of any type during the commission of another crime, even if the firearm is not used in a threatening manner.
Penalties, if convicted, are as follows:
1st Offense: No less than ten (10) years incarceration.
2nd Offense: No less than fifteen (15) years incarceration.
3rd Offense: No less than twenty (20) years incarceration.
Any offense thereafter carries an additional 20 year imprisonment.
Additional time for illegal (non-registered) firearm added per penalties outlined in Article 1.
Penalties listed here are in addition to any time incurred by the initial offense(s).
This section strikes me as potentially problematic, what constitutes a crime in this context? Illegal Parking? I absolutely see what you are trying to do and agree with your intention, but so long as carrying a gun is legal there is the potential that a legal carrier with break a minor law, even unintentionally while carrying and fall foul of this.
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Old 8th January 2013, 12:57 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Aulus Agerius View Post
I think you're probably right on availability, but proving that it is down to availability is a different matter.


I disagree. I don't think that mandatory minimum sentence help: criminals do not commit crimes in the expectation of being caught. However, the length of sentences in the UK demonstrates something else: firearms offenses are regarded as very serious, by society in general. In the U.S. I have the impression (which may or may not be right) that illegal possession of a firearm would be regarded as something of a peccadillo. I think it is the attitude that matters, rather than minimum sentences.
I think attitude and length of penalty affect behaviour.
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Old 8th January 2013, 01:04 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
This section strikes me as potentially problematic, what constitutes a crime in this context? Illegal Parking? I absolutely see what you are trying to do and agree with your intention, but so long as carrying a gun is legal there is the potential that a legal carrier with break a minor law, even unintentionally while carrying and fall foul of this.
I think it should be something along the lines of a similar Florida law, that enhances the penalty if someone commits a felony while in possession of a firearm.
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Old 9th January 2013, 02:56 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
I think it should be something along the lines of a similar Florida law, that enhances the penalty if someone commits a felony while in possession of a firearm.
That's setting the bar a little higher than I would suggest, maybe establishment of criminal intent, I'd also include certain alcohol/drug related offences, drunk and disorderly for example. If you're going to drink enough that you're judgement is impaired you shouldn't be packing (or vice versa).
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Old 9th January 2013, 06:16 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
This section strikes me as potentially problematic, what constitutes a crime in this context? Illegal Parking? I absolutely see what you are trying to do and agree with your intention, but so long as carrying a gun is legal there is the potential that a legal carrier with break a minor law, even unintentionally while carrying and fall foul of this.
Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
I think it should be something along the lines of a similar Florida law, that enhances the penalty if someone commits a felony while in possession of a firearm.
You're right, I should have been a bit more specific. It's meant to come into play for felony charges, not misdemeanors. Burglary, Assault, etc...

Maybe even felony DWI? Might keep some gun-lovers from getting behind the wheel? (ETA: I see PJ mentioned something similar.)
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