JREF Homepage Swift Blog Events Calendar $1 Million Paranormal Challenge The Amaz!ng Meeting Useful Links Support Us
James Randi Educational Foundation JREF Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   JREF Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
Click Here To Donate

Notices


Welcome to the JREF Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.

Reply
Old 2nd January 2013, 10:25 PM   #1
epix
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Borgia Apartment, Vatican City
Posts: 3,123
The Empirical Evidence of Non-Existing God

The atheists living in the past two centuries were always extremely desirous to stumble upon empirical evidence showing that God is a myth - the kind of evidence that would mortally wound the kind of faith with which Christianity defends the opposite view. No luck, though: the theists/atheists ratio kept heavily favoring the theist position. But not all atheists abandoned the state of mind called "faith" that helps a person to endure very adverse conditions. Some of the atheists-by-conversion redirected their faith away from the unproved to the proved - curtesy the mirror. And so, somewhere in the middle of the twentieth century, the atheist faith started to change its shape into something tangible, and it very much resembled the borders of the Soviet Union where scientific atheism was a new, exciting way to reach paradise not in heaven, but here on Earth without the necessary expiration of a person - as Christianity prescribes the transition. Could the folks living in the "worker's paradise" gather some resources to finance a scientific project that would supply the evidence that God really doesn't exist?

The situation in the Soviet Union indicated that no such scientific project was contemplated. The reason was that the purpose of Soviet scientific atheism was to compete with Christianity. In other words, the need of the new Soviet man to turn toward God asking for divine assistance would be greatly diminished by the scientific and technological achievements of a new, atheistic society whose progress wouldn't be hindered by the Christian dogma. The rest of the world would surely notice such a profound difference; the rest of the world would call for the establishment of similar conditions, and the communist revolution would spread all over the world eating up Christianity to the last bite.

But the whole process of the transformation from theism to scientific atheism wouldn't happen overnight, and so some atheists regretted the fact that they would be no longer around to see the final victory given by the world theist/atheist ratio. And some realistically inclined atheists, mainly those living in the Soviet Union, would prefer seeing the empirical evidence of God's non-existence, rather than being forced to nurture utopia.

Years went by and probably no western atheist realized that at one point the window of opportunity just opened.

On April 12, 1961, Yuri Gagarin became the first man in space orbiting once the earth. The event surely boosted the faith of those who hoped to see Soviet scientific atheism as the successor of Christianity. Upon landing, Yuri Gagarin became Hero of the Soviet Union (the highest Soviet award) and also an indispensable one-man platoon with which Soviet scientific atheism intended to outflank Christianity. He was paraded through the streets and squares of Soviet cities, and then he met the worker's deputies in theaters and the people's halls to share his experience. But there was always a KGB person present who always asked this question: Comrade Gagarin! While orbiting our planet, have you seen God?

The answer was also the same: NOPE.

This practice of showing off an eyewitness to God's non-existence - I mean a credible witness, because Yuri became a highly awarded person - wasn't known outside the Soviet Union. Only when Gagarin visited other countries behind the Iron Curtain - those countries whose flame of faith in Soviet scientific atheism never flickered - the practice got noticed.

Comrade Gagarin! While orbiting our planet, have you seen God?
NOPE.


It is said that during these gatherings, many an atheist wept for joy upon hearing the answer.

Finally the word about the eyewitness to God's non-existence reached the Vatican. But the chief keepers of the faith in Jesus kept publicly silent. Was their silence an admission of defeat, or a sign of ignorant defiance?

I guess it was neither. Christians go by the Bible, and the Roman Catholic Church assumed that the true believers are familiar with the Scriptures, mainly with this part:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Colossians 1:15

Oops.

The word of God's invisibility must have reached the propaganda department people who accompanied Gagarin on his tour of brotherly nations, because when he visited Hungary and thereafter, he was no longer asked the question whether he had seen God.

And so the attempt on the part of Soviet scientific atheism to render God non-existent fizzled... But did it?

No. It wouldn't be God, if he wouldn't purposely contradict his own words. Remember that the Bible comprises The Old Testament and The New Testament. Since the Book of Colossians is a part of The New Testament, you can set up a tentative comparison

NEW is to INVISIBLE as OLD is to VISIBLE

and try to attack the Christian position that God is invisible by perusing the Torah, for example.

The descendants of the "Cain breeding plan" have surely noticed that Colossians is the 12th book of The New Testament, and Yuri Gagarin, the first man in space, was sent there on the 12th day of the month. That 12=12 identity and the circumstance change the preferences in the text:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

But that leads toward an entirely different topic.

Last edited by epix; 2nd January 2013 at 10:48 PM.
epix is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 10:30 PM   #2
kerikiwi
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Bay of Islands NZ
Posts: 6,114
Originally Posted by epix View Post
The atheists living in the past two centuries were always extremely desirous to stumble upon empirical evidence showing that God is a myth -
No.
kerikiwi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 10:30 PM   #3
Brainache
Nasty Brutish and Tall
 
Brainache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 14,770
Quote:
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:15
An image of something invisible? Oh, right, it doesn't have to make sense, it's Ancient Wisdom...
__________________
Words cannot convey the vertiginous retching horror that enveloped me as I lost consciousness. - W. S. Burroughs

Invert the prominent diaphragm!!!

I have eaten breakfast and have not written an Epistle to any Church. - dejudge.
Brainache is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 10:33 PM   #4
StankApe
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,643



I fail to see the point here.

The USSR liked to use Gagarin for propaganda purposes? we knew that

The USSR liked to promote the ideas of atheism so as to separate the church from influence over it's citizens? we knew that

That because the USSR was atheistic in it's dogma that this means that every other atheist believes exactly the same way as them, and is in search for this "empirical evidence of non-existence? No, just no.

They used atheism as a tool of control. (and as a counterpoint for propaganda purposes against the WEST), but their use of it as dogma hardly is an expression of the modern atheist.


Being an atheist is like not being a beekeeper. I don't keep bees, nor read about bees cuz beekeeping ain't my bidness! I don't have to present (nor am I interested in discovering) any evidence "against God's existence" it ain't my bidness.

Your amusing anecdote smells like something that will be debunked on Snopes though. So I'm off to check.

ETA: not in Snopes, but it has been shown to be a product of Kruschev's speech and not Gagarin himself

Last edited by StankApe; 2nd January 2013 at 11:01 PM.
StankApe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 10:35 PM   #5
Astreja
Springy Goddess
 
Astreja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Posts: 1,281
Epix, I for one don't actually have a need to definitively disprove your god.

I merely do not believe, and remain unconvinced. That's it. That's all. To Me, unless "invisible" is accompanied by some sort of measurable, repeatable phenomenon such as a voltage measurement, for all practical purposes it functions in the same way as "nonexistent."

So if your god wants Me to believe it exists, it's going to have to start behaving with at least the consistency of a 9-volt battery.
Astreja is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 10:37 PM   #6
StankApe
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,643
From wikipedia

Quote:
Some sources have claimed that Gagarin commented during the flight, "I don't see any God up here." However, no such words appear in the verbatim record of his conversations with Earth-based stations during the spaceflight.[17] In a 2006 interview, Gagarin's friend Colonel Valentin Petrov stated that the cosmonaut never said such words, and that the quote originated from Nikita Khrushchev's speech at the plenum of the Central Committee of the CPSU about the state's anti-religion campaign, saying "Gagarin flew into space, but didn't see any god there."[18] Petrov also said that Gagarin had been baptised into the Orthodox Church as a child, and a 2011 Foma magazine article quoted the rector of the Orthodox church in Star City saying, "Gagarin baptized his elder daughter Elena shortly before his space flight; and his family used to celebrate Christmas and Easter and keep icons in the house
StankApe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 10:53 PM   #7
AdMan
Philosopher
 
AdMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 8,913
Originally Posted by epix View Post
The atheists living in the past two centuries were always extremely desirous to stumble upon empirical evidence showing that God is a myth - the kind of evidence that would mortally wound the kind of faith with which Christianity defends the opposite view.

Maybe in your mind. Try the real world for a change.

And epix attempts yet again to demonstrate epic(x) failure.

No need to keep trying it, epix, we already know you can do it.
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
- Carl Sagan
AdMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 11:17 PM   #8
Brian-M
Daydreamer
 
Brian-M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Downunder
Posts: 5,855
Originally Posted by epix View Post
The atheists living in the past two centuries were always extremely desirous to stumble upon empirical evidence showing that God is a myth - the kind of evidence that would mortally wound the kind of faith with which Christianity defends the opposite view.
Yes, that's right. And we also desperately desire empirical evidence showing that the toothfairy doesn't exit either.


It's logically impossible for there to exist any empirical evidence showing that no God exists. As for the Christian God specifically, what possible evidence could ever arise to mortally wound their faith?

Originally Posted by epix View Post
But the whole process of the transformation from theism to scientific atheism wouldn't happen overnight, and so some atheists regretted the fact that they would be no longer around to see the final victory given by the world theist/atheist ratio.

I'm not sure what you mean by the term "scientific atheism". Looking it up, I found the definition "Scientific Atheism is the acceptance that there is no credible scientific or factually reliable evidence for the existence of a god, gods, or the supernatural".

I don't see how scientific atheism as defined in this manner is in any way incompatible with Christianity. After all, a person can believe in God, while at the same time believing that no verifiable evidence for God exists.

But if this isn't what you mean by scientific atheism, could you please provide your definition?

Originally Posted by epix View Post
Comrade Gagarin! While orbiting our planet, have you seen God?
NOPE.


It is said that during these gatherings, many an atheist wept for joy upon hearing the answer.
Given that no rational, educated person (whether Christian or atheist) ever considered it even remotely plausible that a person in an orbiting spacecraft would see God, why would the news that God wasn't seen have the slightest emotional impact on any atheist?

Your assertion makes no sense.

ETA: Bear in mind that astronomers on earth, by means of large telescopes in observatories, had already seen far further into space than Gagarin could have with his naked eyes, and none of them had seen God either.
__________________
"That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim

Last edited by Brian-M; 2nd January 2013 at 11:33 PM.
Brian-M is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 11:28 PM   #9
Kid Eager
Illuminator
 
Kid Eager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,281
Does there really need to be yet another thread in which a absurd and inaccurate story is contrived, as an excuse to attack a position that nobody seems to hold except the OP?

Welcome to the Land Of Word Salad.... again.

Whilst it might be fun and deconstruct the post to find exactly how many untruths it contains, I'm going for a run instead.
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....
Kid Eager is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2013, 11:33 PM   #10
AdMan
Philosopher
 
AdMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 8,913
Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Does there really need to be yet another thread in which a absurd and inaccurate story is contrived, as an excuse to attack a position that nobody seems to hold except the OP?
No.
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
- Carl Sagan
AdMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 12:29 AM   #11
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Valhalla, one day at a time
Posts: 4,567
Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
It's logically impossible for there to exist any empirical evidence showing that no God exists.
Not necessarily true; it would depend on what definition is given though.
__________________
"It started badly, it tailed off a little in the middle and the less said about the end the better, but apart from that, it was excellent."
- Blackadder
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 12:32 AM   #12
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Valhalla, one day at a time
Posts: 4,567
Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Does there really need to be yet another thread in which a absurd and inaccurate story is contrived, as an excuse to attack a position that nobody seems to hold except the OP?
It's called trolling -- epix posts not in a manner which is meant to evoke thoughtful conversation, but merely to rile people up. No rule against it yet at the JREF, more's the pity.
__________________
"It started badly, it tailed off a little in the middle and the less said about the end the better, but apart from that, it was excellent."
- Blackadder
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 12:55 AM   #13
epix
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Borgia Apartment, Vatican City
Posts: 3,123
Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
From wikipediaFrom wikipedia
Quote:
Some sources have claimed that Gagarin commented during the flight, "I don't see any God up here." However, no such words appear in the verbatim record of his conversations with Earth-based stations during the spaceflight.[17] In a 2006 interview, Gagarin's friend Colonel Valentin Petrov stated that the cosmonaut never said such words, and that the quote originated from Nikita Khrushchev's speech at the plenum of the Central Committee of the CPSU about the state's anti-religion campaign, saying "Gagarin flew into space, but didn't see any god there."[18] Petrov also said that Gagarin had been baptised into the Orthodox Church as a child, and a 2011 Foma magazine article quoted the rector of the Orthodox church in Star City saying, "Gagarin baptized his elder daughter Elena shortly before his space flight; and his family used to celebrate Christmas and Easter and keep icons in the house
The OP never mentions any conversation between Gagarin and the flight control folks. So what do you try to deny?

You, as an atheist, shouldn't contribute to the frequent exclamation "Jesus," as a verbal equivalent of head shaking.
epix is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 01:00 AM   #14
StankApe
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,643
this has nothing to do with Jesus. and I found NOT ONE SINGLE LINK on Google that claimed Gagarin made said speeches in public with assigned KGB shills in attendance. The only thing I could find, referenced a Kruschev speech (that was shown to not be based on truth as shown in the wiki article). In fact, it appears Gagarin may have been fairly religious himself.
AND EVEN IF HE DID make these statements! This has no bearing on any individual atheists before or since. Political propaganda of the USSR has no bearing on my nor any other atheists decisions I have ever encountered.
StankApe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 01:12 AM   #15
epix
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Borgia Apartment, Vatican City
Posts: 3,123
Originally Posted by Astreja View Post
I merely do not believe, and remain unconvinced. To Me, unless "invisible" is accompanied by some sort of measurable, repeatable phenomenon such as a voltage measurement, for all practical purposes it functions in the same way as "nonexistent."

So if your god wants Me to believe it exists, it's going to have to start behaving with at least the consistency of a 9-volt battery.
The guys living in the 14th century also denied on the same principles the existence of a 9-volt battery. That's why many theists don't argue about the existence or non-existence of God with the atheists who prefer sit in the present rather than consider the future. Also, the atheists usualy mistake God for Nature. That's why their gadget indicators are always in zero position.

"Seeing is believing." That goes the other way too, and since Yuri Gagarin didn't see God, there was no reason for the theists to believe and remain "delusional."
epix is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 01:36 AM   #16
epix
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Borgia Apartment, Vatican City
Posts: 3,123
Quote:
Originally Posted by epix
The atheists living in the past two centuries were always extremely desirous to stumble upon empirical evidence showing that God is a myth - the kind of evidence that would mortally wound the kind of faith with which Christianity defends the opposite view.
Originally Posted by AdMan View Post
Maybe in your mind. Try the real world for a change.

And epix attempts yet again to demonstrate epic(x) failure.
Your failure to show otherwise is a super-spectacular comedy perhaps dwarfing the debate between God himself and Richard Dawkins.

Too bad that Thomas Alva Edison never had a chance to ask Yuri Gagarin about what he never saw out there.
http://www.argumentsforatheism.com/a..._evidence.html
epix is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 01:37 AM   #17
Craig B
Philosopher
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,111
@epix
Quote:
Christians go by the Bible, and the Roman Catholic Church assumed that the true believers are familiar with the Scriptures
Eh? Sure about that? Certainly until recent times it didn't assume that the laity engaged in independent study of the Bible, and I find my Catholic friends - and Catholic wife - not very well informed about its contents. See the Catholic Encyclopaedia at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13635b.htm
Quote:
It is only in the beginning of the last five hundred years that we meet with a general law of the Church concerning the reading of the Bible in the vernacular.
That is, since printing has made bibles financially accessible to significant numbers of people! Prior to that, little regulation of its accessibility by lay people was required.
Quote:
On 24 March, 1564, Pius IV promulgated in his Constitution, "Dominici gregis", the Index of Prohibited Books ... The fourth rule places in the hands of the bishop or the inquisitor the power of allowing the reading of the New Testament in the vernacular to laymen who according to the judgment of their confessor or their pastor can profit by this practice. Sixtus V reserved this power to himself or the Sacred Congregation of the Index ... Benedict XIV required that the vernacular version read by laymen should be either approved by the Holy See or provided with notes taken from the writings of the Fathers or of learned and pious authors ...
The Church did NOT permit free access to vernacular bibles by the laity, and the first translator and publisher of a printed edition of the bible in English was put to death. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale. The Catholics were not alone; the first full translation of the Bible in modern Russian printed in a single volume appeared in 1876, some years subsequent to the publication of Marx's Capital in that language. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_t...s_into_Russian.

As remarkable illustration of all this, may I cite http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-en...y/john-hus.htm
Quote:
One of Wycliffe’s followers, John Hus, actively promoted Wycliffe’s ideas: that people should be permitted to read the Bible in their own language, and they should oppose the tyranny of the Roman church that threatened anyone possessing a non-Latin Bible with execution. Hus was burned at the stake in 1415, with Wycliffe’s manuscript Bibles used as kindling for the fire.
Such was the use to which the Church saw fit to put the first English translation of the Bible. Burning to death a Czech dissident!


ETA In 1433 a Czech follower of Jan Hus - Paul Kravar - was burned to death in St Andrews, the then ecclesiastical centre of my native Scotland. According to http://www.facetofaceintercultural.c...piring-martyr/ (I admit, a Protestant and therefore perhaps partisan site)
Quote:
In a manner reflective of Wycliffe’s influence, Crawar taught that the Bible should be freely communicated to all people. He also taught that the spiritual power should be subservient to the secular power and that secular judges should be able to bring charges against delinquent members of the clergy, including archbishops. He taught that purgatory was a fable and that the doctrines of transubstantiation and the rites of absolution were delusions, being but human inventions.

Last edited by Craig B; 3rd January 2013 at 02:09 AM. Reason: ETA last para.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 01:50 AM   #18
Craig B
Philosopher
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,111
Originally Posted by epix View Post
Your failure to show otherwise is a super-spectacular comedy perhaps dwarfing the debate between God himself and Richard Dawkins.

Too bad that Thomas Alva Edison never had a chance to ask Yuri Gagarin about what he never saw out there.
http://www.argumentsforatheism.com/a..._evidence.html
epix, if that's your response to a request to "try the real world", how would you react to being asked to wallow in fantasy and spout gibberish?
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 01:51 AM   #19
Mashuna
Ovis ex Machina
 
Mashuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Welsh Wales
Posts: 6,604
Originally Posted by epix View Post
The guys living in the 14th century also denied on the same principles the existence of a 9-volt battery. That's why many theists don't argue about the existence or non-existence of God with the atheists who prefer sit in the present rather than consider the future. Also, the atheists usualy mistake God for Nature. That's why their gadget indicators are always in zero position.

"Seeing is believing." That goes the other way too, and since Yuri Gagarin didn't see God, there was no reason for the theists to believe and remain "delusional."
Perhaps you'd have more luck with your posts if you kept them all to one thread, somewhere in the Humour sub-forum?
Mashuna is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 02:55 AM   #20
pakeha
Penultimate Amazing
 
pakeha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 11,351
What is the point of this OP?
pakeha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 03:14 AM   #21
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,460
Originally Posted by epix View Post
The atheists living in the past two centuries were always extremely desirous to stumble upon empirical evidence showing that God is a myth
False.

And for once, I actually stopped reading at that false premise. I feel much better for it and heartily recommend it to one and all.

PS Surely everyone knows atheists expend all their efforts seeking empirical evidence that unicorns are a myth.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 03:29 AM   #22
Craig B
Philosopher
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,111
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
False.

And for once, I actually stopped reading at that false premise. I feel much better for it and heartily recommend it to one and all.

PS Surely everyone knows atheists expend all their efforts seeking empirical evidence that unicorns are a myth.
Strictly speaking, it is easy for not only atheists but religious believers too, to prove that God or unicorns are a myth. We can easily find myths containing these entities. We can equally find myths containing lions or wolves. The real question is whether gods or unicorns also exist in reality, like lions or wolves. Now the way to prove they do really exist is to produce evidence for such existence. Any that is sent my way will be gratefully received. Meanwhile I withhold belief from gods and unicorns without proving or disproving anything at all, as the burden of proof is not mine to bear.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 04:09 AM   #23
Brian-M
Daydreamer
 
Brian-M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Downunder
Posts: 5,855
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Not necessarily true; it would depend on what definition is given though.
By "no God" I meant no God of any kind. (Including but not limited to the God of deistic belief.)
__________________
"That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim
Brian-M is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 05:40 AM   #24
MajorSanderson
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
An image of something invisible? Oh, right, it doesn't have to make sense, it's Ancient Wisdom...
It's ancient wisdom alright, borrowed directly from Greek philosophy, mainly Plato and his theory of forms...
MajorSanderson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 06:02 AM   #25
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge
Posts: 15,932
Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
What is the point of this OP?
The point is that epix is very frustrated by his inability to engage atheists regarding their actual position, so he has created a giant heap of straw to punch with what he imagines to be extremely clever turns of phrase.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 07:30 AM   #26
wollery
Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs!
 
wollery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Land of Eternal Hope
Posts: 10,611
The point is that Epix doesn't understand the difference between belief and lack of belief, doesn't understand the burden of proof and can't seem to fathom that not all people who share a basic descriptor are identical in every single belief (or lack thereof) that they hold.

Also, he's a troll.
__________________
"You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad

"Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin
wollery is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 07:56 AM   #27
ToddH
Critical Thinker
 
ToddH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Heart of the bible belt
Posts: 359
Another fail of Epix proportions.
ToddH is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 08:15 AM   #28
Astreja
Springy Goddess
 
Astreja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Posts: 1,281
Originally Posted by epix View Post
The guys living in the 14th century also denied on the same principles the existence of a 9-volt battery.
That sounds suspiciously like a tu quoque fallacy, and I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with it. Are you suggesting that 'the guys living in the 14th century' had some special insight into Life, the Universe and Everything because they had less technology than us, or is this an admission that the problem of undetectable gods is just as intractable as it was in 1399?

Quote:
That's why many theists don't argue about the existence or non-existence of God with the atheists who prefer sit in the present rather than consider the future.
What leads you to believe that atheists don't consider the future?

Quote:
Also, the atheists usualy mistake God for Nature. That's why their gadget indicators are always in zero position.
Okay, Epix, that's just plain silly. I live right in the middle of nature (small 'n,' as I do not anthropomorphize it) and never get a 'zero' reading in that regard. I interpret the readings in terms of the natural, not the supernatural.

Quote:
"Seeing is believing." That goes the other way too...
That's what I'm telling you, Epix. 'Not seeing is not believing' really is My philosophical position, and the words or beliefs of Yuri Gagarin or 'the guys living in the 14th century' are irrelevant if it's Me you're trying to understand.

I see no evidence and therefore do not believe. Period. Until your hypothetical god shows up in some tangible, measurable form I do not expect that to change. Holding one's tail in both paws, squeezing one's eyes shut and proclaiming "I do I do I do believe in spooks" simply isn't an option.
Astreja is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 08:36 AM   #29
Shalamar
Dark Lord of the JREF
 
Shalamar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Super Star Destroyer Executor
Posts: 2,754
The problem with Epix, and other like them, is that he/she believes in something, and is incapable of not believing in something. So to them, it means that atheists *must* also believe in something, no matter how often they try to explain that atheism is the lack of belief.
__________________

"The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."
Shalamar is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 09:04 AM   #30
Merton
Muse
 
Merton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Montana, USA
Posts: 576
Originally Posted by wollery View Post
The point is that Epix doesn't understand the difference between belief and lack of belief, doesn't understand the burden of proof and can't seem to fathom that not all people who share a basic descriptor are identical in every single belief (or lack thereof) that they hold.
Or Russian history... or Marxism-Leninism... or honest journalism, apparently. At least he's got that numerology thing down.
__________________
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." - Thomas Paine
"We are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." - Mikhail Bakunin
Merton is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 09:33 AM   #31
Good Lt
Graduate Poster
 
Good Lt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Satellite of Love
Posts: 1,492
Quote:
The atheists living in the past two centuries were always extremely desirous (and unable) to stumble upon empirical evidence showing that God is a myth exists.
Fixed.

epix, is there empirical evidence showing that Allah is a myth? Or Vishnu? Or Xenu?

How about empirical evidence that the flying celestial teapot is a myth?
__________________
Sorrowful and great is the artist's destiny.
- Liszt

Certainly, in the topsy-turvy world of heavy rock, having a good solid piece of wood in your hand is often useful.
- Ian Faith

Last edited by Good Lt; 3rd January 2013 at 09:35 AM.
Good Lt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 10:06 AM   #32
marplots
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 9,524
Yuri Gagarin goes to space and doesn't see God?
Anecdotal evidence.
Ho ho.
Would you have believed if he said he did see God?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
How can his report refute centuries of established theory?
marplots is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 10:06 AM   #33
Loss Leader
Opinionated Jerk
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 14,528
Originally Posted by epix View Post
The descendants of the "Cain breeding plan" have surely noticed that Colossians is the 12th book of The New Testament, and Yuri Gagarin, the first man in space, was sent there on the 12th day of the month.

Or they could have noticed that Gagarin was born on March 9. 3+9 = 12.

Or that he went to space on 12/4/1961. 1+2+4+1+9+6+1 = 24, which is 12x2

Or that he died in 1968. 1+9+6+8 = 24, which is 12x2.

Or that his capsule was named VOSTOK. Those are the 22, 15, 19, 20, 15 and 11th letters of the alphabet. That adds up to 102. Using the well-know numerolgical rule of dropping the zeros, 102 = 12.

Or they could have noticed that numerology is complete nonsense and any number you want to produce can be forced out of all of the millions of bits of data generated by a person's life.

Heck, your handle is EPIX. Normally, that would be spelled EPIC. IC is the roman numeral for 99. E is 5 and P is the 16th letter of the alphabet. 99+5+16 = 120. Drop the zero, as is allowed, and you get ... 12.
__________________
Follow me on Twitter! @LossLeader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 10:20 AM   #34
Spindrift
My little friend is back!
 
Spindrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 11,164
Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
What is the point of this OP?
I'm not sure but I think it's that Epix is pissed that Yuri Gargarin hasn't been made a god yet and the atheists are to blame for it. And there's something about Claude Rains, the invisible man.
__________________
I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.
Spindrift is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 12:41 PM   #35
TimCallahan
Philosopher
 
TimCallahan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,108
Originally Posted by epix View Post
The OP never mentions any conversation between Gagarin and the flight control folks. So what do you try to deny?

You, as an atheist, shouldn't contribute to the frequent exclamation "Jesus," as a verbal equivalent of head shaking.
Yes, the OP does specifically mention such a conversation. Here's what I copied from your OP. See the hilited area:

On April 12, 1961, Yuri Gagarin became the first man in space orbiting once the earth. The event surely boosted the faith of those who hoped to see Soviet scientific atheism as the successor of Christianity. Upon landing, Yuri Gagarin became Hero of the Soviet Union (the highest Soviet award) and also an indispensable one-man platoon with which Soviet scientific atheism intended to outflank Christianity. He was paraded through the streets and squares of Soviet cities, and then he met the worker's deputies in theaters and the people's halls to share his experience. But there was always a KGB person present who always asked this question: Comrade Gagarin! While orbiting our planet, have you seen God?

The answer was also the same: NOPE.


While this isn't specifically a conversation between Gagarin and the flight control folks, it is the conversation alluded to in the posts. Whether it happened between Gagarin and the flight control people or later, it's still the same propagandistic exchange.

Last edited by TimCallahan; 3rd January 2013 at 12:53 PM.
TimCallahan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 01:03 PM   #36
TimCallahan
Philosopher
 
TimCallahan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,108
Of course, you can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on the one making a positive assertion. For example, if the state charges you with a crime, the burden of proof is on them to prove you committed the crime. The only way you could prove you didn't commit a crime is to have an alibi, i.e. to prove a positive that makes it physically impossible for you to have committed said crime.

So, epix, I propose that you come up with a pass / fail test for the existence of God. Is there anything that you can think of that should be true if there is a God that wouldn't be true otherwise? If we could agree on such a test, we could prove things one way or another.

BTW, your posts often show considerable scorn for atheists. This is uncalled-for. We don't eat babies, indulge in all sorts of heinous behaviors etc.; we simply don't believe in God. You, as a believer, are, likewise, not necessarily a bad person. Unfortunately, you have engaged in some personal attacks on your threads. Try just arguing the point and asserting that your opponents are simply wrong on a given issue.
TimCallahan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 01:11 PM   #37
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Valhalla, one day at a time
Posts: 4,567
Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
By "no God" I meant no God of any kind. (Including but not limited to the God of deistic belief.)
Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
Of course, you can't prove a negative.
What I'm saying is that in limited circumstances, you can prove a negative.

The burden isn't on the person to prove the negative, but sometimes you can do so.

That's really my only point so far in this thread. If theists provide a testable concept of their god, not only will it fail to be proven or supported, but often times, it'll even have evidence supporting it's non-existence.
__________________
"It started badly, it tailed off a little in the middle and the less said about the end the better, but apart from that, it was excellent."
- Blackadder
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 06:33 PM   #38
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Japan
Posts: 17,753
It's kind of hard to find empirical evidence of the non-existence of an entity, be it Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, unicorns or God(s).
__________________
“Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.”
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 08:17 PM   #39
Roger Ramjets
Graduate Poster
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,039
Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
The only thing I could find, referenced a Kruschev speech (that was shown to not be based on truth as shown in the wiki article).
So if Kruschev's speech was not based on truth, does that mean Gagarin did see God?

Alexei Leonov says Yes.
Quote:
When Yuri Gagarin, the first man who went into space, returned to Earth, there was a huge reception in his honor. As his close friend and cosmonaut colleague Alexei Leonov tells it, then-premier Nikita Khrushchev cornered Gagarin "So tell me, Yuri," he asked, "did you see God up there?" After a moment's pause. Gagarin answered, "Yes sir, I did." Khrushchev frowned. "Don't tell any one," he said.
But how could he have, when God is invisible?

Gagarin said that he saw 'God', but he couldn't have actually seen Him, because God is invisible (and/or nonexistent). So Gagarin was either hallucinating, mistaken or lying. Either way he did not actually see God, and therefore Khrushchev's statement that "Gagarin flew into space, but didn't see god there" is true!
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2013, 08:41 PM   #40
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Some other planet
Posts: 45,781
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Or they could have noticed that Gagarin was born on March 9. 3+9 = 12.

Or that he went to space on 12/4/1961. 1+2+4+1+9+6+1 = 24, which is 12x2

Or that he died in 1968. 1+9+6+8 = 24, which is 12x2.

Or that his capsule was named VOSTOK. Those are the 22, 15, 19, 20, 15 and 11th letters of the alphabet. That adds up to 102. Using the well-know numerolgical rule of dropping the zeros, 102 = 12.

Or they could have noticed that numerology is complete nonsense and any number you want to produce can be forced out of all of the millions of bits of data generated by a person's life.

Heck, your handle is EPIX. Normally, that would be spelled EPIC. IC is the roman numeral for 99. E is 5 and P is the 16th letter of the alphabet. 99+5+16 = 120. Drop the zero, as is allowed, and you get ... 12.
__________________
Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

JREF Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:07 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2001-2013, James Randi Educational Foundation. All Rights Reserved.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.