This atheist "me" kept silent

Cainkane1 · 6th January 2013, 06:51 PM

A good friend of mine and an all around good guy often helps me with my computer issues. He's very religious as is my 90 year old mother. Mother adores him.

For Christmas he gave my mother a book written by or about a little boy who says he died and went to heaven only to be sent back. He went further on by telling us that his own daughter after being in a horrible car accident died only to come back four times.

She said Jesus told her that she was needed on earth.

I stayed silent. Atheist though I am I said absolutely nothing. I don't want to argue or upset anyone.

Had he been anyone else I'm really not sure what if anything I would have said. Mother and this man are sincere in their beliefs and I feel left out if not intimidated.

As I grow older my former classmates from highschool are professing a belief in Jesus and here again I'm feeling left out.

I'm equally certain that this is the only life we have but I'm surrounded by my peers saying Heaven is a great deal better than any situation on earth.

I need a coping mechanism. For me religion didn't work.

fuelair · 6th January 2013, 06:54 PM

Sorry for the difficulty for you - they have found a magic thing that, though completely unreal makes them feel good. That usually keeps them held down but most won't ever recognize that - and after they are gone it really doesn't matter.

Monketey Ghost · 6th January 2013, 06:56 PM

My best buddy is solid in his belief in part because, he tells me, he had a sort of God's-presence-experience once. He was knocked over by it.

He knows I was raised as a sure-to-become-a-priest Irish Catholic, and then gradually lost religion. He takes amusing swipes at my lack of belief sometimes, but I exchange little jabs at his beliefs with him too. He hopes that someday I will come to Jesus, and figures that I will probably see Hell if I don't.

*shrugs*

It's cool by me. Almost everyone I know is religious.

Fudbucker · 6th January 2013, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

Sorry for the difficulty for you - they have found a magic thing that, though completely unreal makes them feel good. That usually keeps them held down but most won't ever recognize that - and after they are gone it really doesn't matter.

What a depressing worldview you must have.

arthwollipot · 6th January 2013, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

What a depressing worldview you must have.

You'd be surprised how uplifting atheism can be.

fuelair · 6th January 2013, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

What a depressing worldview you must have.

With mostly no offense, I generally am a happy camper -and not being chained down by imaginaries helps that a lot!!

Jimbo07 · 6th January 2013, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Mother and this man are sincere in their beliefs and I feel left out if not intimidated.

As I grow older my former classmates from highschool are professing a belief in Jesus and here again I'm feeling left out.

Seconded.

I almost want to be religious. There's a built-in social group, structure, being part of something bigger than oneself, etc. It feels like the only thing that precludes me sometimes is having to believe in the supernatural. I want to be some kind of super warrior-monk... but no matter how hard I try, I can't reconcile that with the image of row-upon-row of grown adults, pretending with all their might, that the supernatural exists!

CriticalSock · 7th January 2013, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

You'd be surprised how uplifting atheism can be.

Atheism was a breath of fresh air for me when I realised that I didn't have to conform to other peoples ideas and opinions on how I should behave.

Because that's all religion is.

And while that might sound like an excuse for amoral behaviour, I found that it actually heightened my moral sensitivities. That there is only this one trip through reality that any of us have makes it that much worse to hurt, spoil or (worst of all) curtail anyone else's trip.

geni · 7th January 2013, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by CriticalSock

Atheism was a breath of fresh air for me when I realised that I didn't have to conform to other peoples ideas and opinions on how I should behave.

Because that's all religion is.

And while that might sound like an excuse for amoral behaviour, I found that it actually heightened my moral sensitivities. That there is only this one trip through reality that any of us have makes it that much worse to hurt, spoil or (worst of all) curtail anyone else's trip.

Yes but you live in the costwolds. The UK doesn't really have the same social aspects tied to religion that the US has.

Gawdzilla · 7th January 2013, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

What a depressing worldview you must have.

Propaganda from a religious. I've never been a believer and I've had a very fun and/or interesting life. My wife is a recovering religious and she's happier now than she ever was when she was depending on her imaginary friend to solve her problems.

"Dear God, there's a truck coming straight at me! Please get me out of this! Yours truly, OnMyKnees."

eight bits · 7th January 2013, 03:33 AM

Well, one bit of good news is that, being a non-believer, there is no "religious" obligation for you to "speak up" when nobody is going to thank you for your input anyway. You're not letting down the side. There is no side to let down.

It sounds as if you wish both your good friend and your mother well. Also, you seem to be searching still, albeit not in the religious devotional aisle. Of such facts are non-committal and fully true conversational mortar made, the conversational transition-markers that work so well when the subject is being tactfully changed.

There are people in my life with whom I don't discuss religion, just as there are other people in my life with whom I don't discuss politics, and others still with whom I don't discuss sexuality. It's not that religion, politics and sexuality are uninteresting or unimportant to me, but rather that none of them is the totality of my life, nor of anybody else's life whom I know personally.

Common ground probably exists, and with a lot of people, maybe even most people. Find the common ground and make your stand there. Come to JREF when you need to be "Unholier than thou."

You'll do fine, I'd wager.

geni · 7th January 2013, 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by Jimbo07

Seconded.

I almost want to be religious. There's a built-in social group, structure, being part of something bigger than oneself, etc. It feels like the only thing that precludes me sometimes is having to believe in the supernatural. I want to be some kind of super warrior-monk... but no matter how hard I try, I can't reconcile that with the image of row-upon-row of grown adults, pretending with all their might, that the supernatural exists!

If we accept "god" as being a being able to do everything described in the bible then statisticaly such a being exists. Unfortunately its likely to be rather a long way away. Or if you follow the other arguments its running the simulation.

Gawdzilla · 7th January 2013, 03:37 AM

Originally Posted by geni

If we accept "god" as being a being able to do everything described in the bible then statisticaly such a being exists. Unfortunately its likely to be rather a long way away.

It would also be self-contradictory. The bible is far from being a blueprint for "god".

geni · 7th January 2013, 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

It would also be self-contradictory. The bible is far from being a blueprint for "god".

You got a better source for Yahweh? Sure there is the medieval fanfiction but the biblical god is considered the standard version.

Yahweh isn't even at the level of a kardashev type II civilisation.

Gawdzilla · 7th January 2013, 03:55 AM

Originally Posted by geni

You got a better source for Yahweh? Sure there is the medieval fanfiction but the biblical god is considered the standard version.

Yahweh isn't even at the level of a kardashev type II civilisation.

I said the source was self-contradictory. Better source for fictional characters? Try Marvel or DC.

Dancing David · 7th January 2013, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

...

She said Jesus told her that she was needed on earth.

I stayed silent. Atheist though I am I said absolutely nothing. I don't want to argue or upset anyone.

...
I need a coping mechanism. For me religion didn't work.

I often do not share my POV as there is a time and place for everything.

When I need solace and comfort I go out and look at the stars and think about the beauty and scale of the universe. Or listen to a dharma talk by Thich Naht Hahn (YMMV)

CriticalSock · 7th January 2013, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Yes but you live in the costwolds. The UK doesn't really have the same social aspects tied to religion that the US has.

There is a church in the village that rings its bells every damn Sunday!

But I was raised a JW, so I had a lot of similiar social aspects with religion when growing up (JW's are an American import).

geni · 7th January 2013, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

I said the source was self-contradictory. Better source for fictional characters? Try Marvel or DC.

The bible is crystal clear compared to the average comic book continuity. Anyway Yahweh appears in DC comics (the Presence).

angrysoba · 7th January 2013, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

A good friend of mine and an all around good guy often helps me with my computer issues. He's very religious as is my 90 year old mother. Mother adores him.

For Christmas he gave my mother a book written by or about a little boy who says he died and went to heaven only to be sent back. He went further on by telling us that his own daughter after being in a horrible car accident died only to come back four times.

She said Jesus told her that she was needed on earth.

I stayed silent. Atheist though I am I said absolutely nothing. I don't want to argue or upset anyone.

Had he been anyone else I'm really not sure what if anything I would have said. Mother and this man are sincere in their beliefs and I feel left out if not intimidated.

As I grow older my former classmates from highschool are professing a belief in Jesus and here again I'm feeling left out.

I'm equally certain that this is the only life we have but I'm surrounded by my peers saying Heaven is a great deal better than any situation on earth.

I need a coping mechanism. For me religion didn't work.

Well, sir, all I can say is that you probably shouldn't feel that a majority view is necessarily the correct one.

If you feel that it is isolating to be the only one around you who thinks differently then at least you can take pride in the fact that your beliefs are genuinely your own.

In Britain, where I am from, I tend to have a bit of respect for those who believe in a God when people around them are snickering at them. It doesn't mean they are right, of course. But having beliefs which are different from those around you should not be a source of despondency.

angrysoba · 7th January 2013, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by CriticalSock

But I was raised a JW, so I had a lot of similiar social aspects with religion when growing up (JW's are an American import).

L'chaim! No need to be so coy! Is JW like G-d?

Jack by the hedge · 7th January 2013, 06:05 AM

If it gets on your nerves to be surrounded by people whose coping mechanism is to imagine life is just some preliminary to be endured and got out of the way before the main event, then maybe you should imagine you're living in another culture - India say. If a friend told a story about their daughter almost dying and being told by a group of Hindu gods to go back to earth, you probably wouldn't feel the urge to say you didn't believe it (because of course there wouldn't be the same level of expectation that you would).

Dr. Keith · 7th January 2013, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by eight bits

There are people in my life with whom I don't discuss religion, just as there are other people in my life with whom I don't discuss politics, and others still with whom I don't discuss sexuality. It's not that religion, politics and sexuality are uninteresting or unimportant to me, but rather that none of them is the totality of my life, nor of anybody else's life whom I know personally.

Common ground probably exists, and with a lot of people, maybe even most people. Find the common ground and make your stand there.

I find it more interesting to discuss topics on which I disagree with the other party because it allows me to see the weaknesses in my beliefs as well as the rationale behind beliefs that seem irrational to me. The hard part is keeping it civil. For me, this means keeping my beliefs out of the conversation and making it more about theirs; but not picking apart the weaknesses of their argument, but instead finding out why they believe what they believe and what do they really believe. So, my very Catholic mother-in-law and I have lengthy conversations on religion and the state of the Church, and I often come away surprised at how contrary her beliefs are to the church's teachings, but then she is far more rational than the church!

What I find odd is how easy it is to make a conversation completely about the other person without that person asking too many questions about what I believe. Once I realized how easy it is to discuss another's beliefs without revealing my own, it took a lot of the stress out of such conversations.

Quote:

Come to JREF when you need to be "Unholier than thou."

You'll do fine, I'd wager.

I am often reminded of a quote from my more religious days: my god doesn't require your belief. While sounding very pious, I think this quote was a turning point away from religion for me, but that is another post altogether. I have changed it a bit to: my beliefs do not require your god. And yet I don't think I have ever had to actually say this out loud.

Dr. Keith · 7th January 2013, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

L'chaim! No need to be so coy! Is JW like G-d?

I read it as Jehovah's Witness, but that could be wrong.

Beady · 7th January 2013, 06:25 AM

Prayer is emotionally satisfying, as is the rest of what many people consider to be their religion.

You have to understand two things before you can fully accept that sentence. First, we are emotional creatures first and foremost; cognition is probably our most recent and, therefore, our least-developed faculty and there's no shame in seeking purely emotional reassurance. We are what we are, and the "rational" person is the abberation. Second, virtually no one believes what their holy book actually says; they believe what they want it to say. To them, therefore, there is no conflict between fact and interpretation. Any given human, even the hardest-core skeptic, is quite capable of fully believing a multitude of mutually-contradictory things. Again, we are what we are.

Point being, I guess, is that a little bit of irrational belief isn't going to matter much, so go ahead, if it helps. At the very least, there's no really rational reason to worry about it.

Polaris · 7th January 2013, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by CriticalSock

Atheism was a breath of fresh air for me when I realised that I didn't have to conform to other peoples ideas and opinions on how I should behave.

Because that's all religion is.

And while that might sound like an excuse for amoral behaviour, I found that it actually heightened my moral sensitivities. That there is only this one trip through reality that any of us have makes it that much worse to hurt, spoil or (worst of all) curtail anyone else's trip.

Mind if I use this quote on my book of face?

CriticalSock · 7th January 2013, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

L'chaim! No need to be so coy! Is JW like G-d?

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

I read it as Jehovah's Witness, but that could be wrong.

Sorry yes, JW is Jehovah's Witnesses. Not being coy, I just thought it was a commonly known acronym.

Originally Posted by Polaris

Mind if I use this quote on my book of face?

Feel free!

The Norseman · 7th January 2013, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by geni

If we accept "god" as being a being able to do everything described in the bible then statisticaly such a being exists. Unfortunately its likely to be rather a long way away. Or if you follow the other arguments its running the simulation.

I'm genuinely not understanding here. What statistics are used that show that the god of the bible exists, assuming the first part of your first sentence?

Ryokan · 7th January 2013, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

What a depressing worldview you must have.

If it's the truth, as he, I and other atheists believe, why does it matter if it's depressing or not? I can't imagine believing in something just because it's comforting. That's convincing yourself to believe in a lie.

Besides, from my point of view, believing that all my friends and family who don't believe and practice that belief in the correct way will be tortured for all eternity sounds a lot more depressing to me.

Dr. Keith · 7th January 2013, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Besides, from my point of view, believing that all my friends and family who don't believe and practice that belief in the correct way will be tortured for all eternity sounds a lot more depressing to me.

Yeah, but that is their choice to be tortured. /sarcasm

eight bits · 7th January 2013, 12:52 PM

Dr K

Quote:

I find it more interesting to discuss topics on which I disagree with the other party because it allows me to see the weaknesses in my beliefs as well as the rationale behind beliefs that seem irrational to me.

Yes, that can work out: with some of my firends I can't discuss religion, but I can discuss politics (say) with them, and discuss it in those "weakness disclosing" and "understanding the rationale" kinds of way. So, I've had lots and lots of great disagreeing discussions about religion, politics and sexuality, but rarely all of them with the same person.

Gawdzilla · 7th January 2013, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by geni

The bible is crystal clear compared to the average comic book continuity. Anyway Yahweh appears in DC comics (the Presence).

Playing out of his league.

Jimbo07 · 7th January 2013, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by geni

If we accept "god" as being a being able to do everything described in the bible then statisticaly such a being exists.

What? What do statistics have to do with anything? Statistical analysis is a tool. Applied against a good data set, in can be an illuminating tool.

Are you suggesting the Bible is a good data set for anything?

Quote:

Unfortunately its likely to be rather a long way away.

What? What does distance (or for that matter time) have to do with anything?

Quote:

Or if you follow the other arguments its running the simulation.

Which other arguments? Do you have any evidence we're in a simulation?

...

I'd accept simulating entities as supernatural creatures, since they are outside the nature defined for us. However, for them, the supernatural is just pushed back a stage.

I still don't believe in the supernatural, certainly not as many feel it to act.

geni · 7th January 2013, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by The Norseman

I'm genuinely not understanding here. What statistics are used that show that the god of the bible exists, assuming the first part of your first sentence?

Yahweh as depecited in the bible isn't actualy that powerful. At this stage about the only things that yahweh can do that we can't is construct lifeforms and build planets. Given the likely number of planets in the universe and the likely number of civilisations as a result stasticaly we would expect some out there to have that level of ability.

geni · 7th January 2013, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Jimbo07

Which other arguments? Do you have any evidence we're in a simulation?

If you accept its possible to create a simulation which can contain conscious entities which are unaware that they are in a simulation then depending on how you run the numbers it is possible to argue that we are more likely than not to be living in such a simulation. The trick is not to care.

arthwollipot · 7th January 2013, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by geni

Yahweh as depecited in the bible isn't actualy that powerful. At this stage about the only things that yahweh can do that we can't is construct lifeforms and build planets.

And we can even win battles against iron chariots, so we're actually one up on him there.

AvalonXQ · 7th January 2013, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

And we can even win battles against iron chariots, so we're actually one up on him there.

A common mistake. YHWH can handle iron chariots just fine. See Judges 4.

Jimbo07 · 7th January 2013, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by geni

If you accept its possible to create a simulation which can contain conscious entities which are unaware that they are in a simulation then depending on how you run the numbers it is possible to argue that we are more likely than not to be living in such a simulation. The trick is not to care.

Wait... if I accept it's possible...

Again, what does that have to do with anything? It is possible that we're not living in a simulation. It's also possible that not only are we living in a simulation, but that our simulators are living in a simulation!

I've lost track of your point...

Were you being sarcastic? Are you arguing for, or against, the existence of supernatural entities?

geni · 8th January 2013, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by Jimbo07

Wait... if I accept it's possible...

Again, what does that have to do with anything? It is possible that we're not living in a simulation.

Depending on how you argue the maths that is extremely unlikely.

Quote:

It's also possible that not only are we living in a simulation, but that our simulators are living in a simulation!

Again depending on how you argue the maths that is extremely likely.

Quote:

I've lost track of your point...

Were you being sarcastic? Are you arguing for, or against, the existence of supernatural entities?

My argument is that Yahweh and most other religious entities don't really qualify as supernatural. The simulation bit is simply an option if you want to be religious.

Gawdzilla · 8th January 2013, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

A common mistake. YHWH can handle iron chariots just fine. See Judges 4.

Another contradiction in the Bible? Thanks, it goes on the list.

angrysoba · 8th January 2013, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by Jimbo07

Wait... if I accept it's possible...

Again, what does that have to do with anything? It is possible that we're not living in a simulation. It's also possible that not only are we living in a simulation, but that our simulators are living in a simulation!

I've lost track of your point...

Were you being sarcastic? Are you arguing for, or against, the existence of supernatural entities?

He's using an argument that was made by Nick Bostrom called the simulation argument, which argues that if it is possible to create conscious simulations that are indisinguishable from the world we live in today then the likelihood of us living in one of those simulations is enormous, because future human beings would be playing such simulations just as people today play Sim City (is that old now?) or Civilization.

http://www.simulation-argument.com/

6th January 2013, 06:51 PM	#1
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	This atheist "me" kept silent A good friend of mine and an all around good guy often helps me with my computer issues. He's very religious as is my 90 year old mother. Mother adores him. For Christmas he gave my mother a book written by or about a little boy who says he died and went to heaven only to be sent back. He went further on by telling us that his own daughter after being in a horrible car accident died only to come back four times. She said Jesus told her that she was needed on earth. I stayed silent. Atheist though I am I said absolutely nothing. I don't want to argue or upset anyone. Had he been anyone else I'm really not sure what if anything I would have said. Mother and this man are sincere in their beliefs and I feel left out if not intimidated. As I grow older my former classmates from highschool are professing a belief in Jesus and here again I'm feeling left out. I'm equally certain that this is the only life we have but I'm surrounded by my peers saying Heaven is a great deal better than any situation on earth. I need a coping mechanism. For me religion didn't work.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

6th January 2013, 06:54 PM	#2
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	Sorry for the difficulty for you - they have found a magic thing that, though completely unreal makes them feel good. That usually keeps them held down but most won't ever recognize that - and after they are gone it really doesn't matter.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

6th January 2013, 06:56 PM	#3
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807	My best buddy is solid in his belief in part because, he tells me, he had a sort of God's-presence-experience once. He was knocked over by it. He knows I was raised as a sure-to-become-a-priest Irish Catholic, and then gradually lost religion. He takes amusing swipes at my lack of belief sometimes, but I exchange little jabs at his beliefs with him too. He hopes that someday I will come to Jesus, and figures that I will probably see Hell if I don't. shrugs It's cool by me. Almost everyone I know is religious.
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

6th January 2013, 09:00 PM	#4
Fudbucker Muse Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 513	Originally Posted by fuelair Sorry for the difficulty for you - they have found a magic thing that, though completely unreal makes them feel good. That usually keeps them held down but most won't ever recognize that - and after they are gone it really doesn't matter. What a depressing worldview you must have.
Fudbucker Muse Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 513

6th January 2013, 09:06 PM	#5
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,038	Originally Posted by Fudbucker What a depressing worldview you must have. You'd be surprised how uplifting atheism can be.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

6th January 2013, 09:55 PM	#6
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	Originally Posted by Fudbucker What a depressing worldview you must have. With mostly no offense, I generally am a happy camper -and not being chained down by imaginaries helps that a lot!!
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

6th January 2013, 10:04 PM	#7
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,419	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Mother and this man are sincere in their beliefs and I feel left out if not intimidated. As I grow older my former classmates from highschool are professing a belief in Jesus and here again I'm feeling left out. Seconded. I almost want to be religious. There's a built-in social group, structure, being part of something bigger than oneself, etc. It feels like the only thing that precludes me sometimes is having to believe in the supernatural. I want to be some kind of super warrior-monk... but no matter how hard I try, I can't reconcile that with the image of row-upon-row of grown adults, pretending with all their might, that the supernatural exists!
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,419	__________________ This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key

7th January 2013, 02:59 AM	#8
CriticalSock Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: In a little costwold stone cottage. Posts: 1,994	Originally Posted by arthwollipot You'd be surprised how uplifting atheism can be. Atheism was a breath of fresh air for me when I realised that I didn't have to conform to other peoples ideas and opinions on how I should behave. Because that's all religion is. And while that might sound like an excuse for amoral behaviour, I found that it actually heightened my moral sensitivities. That there is only this one trip through reality that any of us have makes it that much worse to hurt, spoil or (worst of all) curtail anyone else's trip.

7th January 2013, 03:29 AM	#9
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,578	Originally Posted by CriticalSock Atheism was a breath of fresh air for me when I realised that I didn't have to conform to other peoples ideas and opinions on how I should behave. Because that's all religion is. And while that might sound like an excuse for amoral behaviour, I found that it actually heightened my moral sensitivities. That there is only this one trip through reality that any of us have makes it that much worse to hurt, spoil or (worst of all) curtail anyone else's trip. Yes but you live in the costwolds. The UK doesn't really have the same social aspects tied to religion that the US has.

7th January 2013, 03:31 AM	#10
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,520	Originally Posted by Fudbucker What a depressing worldview you must have. Propaganda from a religious. I've never been a believer and I've had a very fun and/or interesting life. My wife is a recovering religious and she's happier now than she ever was when she was depending on her imaginary friend to solve her problems. "Dear God, there's a truck coming straight at me! Please get me out of this! Yours truly, OnMyKnees."
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

7th January 2013, 03:33 AM	#11
eight bits Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 407	Well, one bit of good news is that, being a non-believer, there is no "religious" obligation for you to "speak up" when nobody is going to thank you for your input anyway. You're not letting down the side. There is no side to let down. It sounds as if you wish both your good friend and your mother well. Also, you seem to be searching still, albeit not in the religious devotional aisle. Of such facts are non-committal and fully true conversational mortar made, the conversational transition-markers that work so well when the subject is being tactfully changed. There are people in my life with whom I don't discuss religion, just as there are other people in my life with whom I don't discuss politics, and others still with whom I don't discuss sexuality. It's not that religion, politics and sexuality are uninteresting or unimportant to me, but rather that none of them is the totality of my life, nor of anybody else's life whom I know personally. Common ground probably exists, and with a lot of people, maybe even most people. Find the common ground and make your stand there. Come to JREF when you need to be "Unholier than thou." You'll do fine, I'd wager.

7th January 2013, 03:36 AM	#12
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,578	Originally Posted by Jimbo07 Seconded. I almost want to be religious. There's a built-in social group, structure, being part of something bigger than oneself, etc. It feels like the only thing that precludes me sometimes is having to believe in the supernatural. I want to be some kind of super warrior-monk... but no matter how hard I try, I can't reconcile that with the image of row-upon-row of grown adults, pretending with all their might, that the supernatural exists! If we accept "god" as being a being able to do everything described in the bible then statisticaly such a being exists. Unfortunately its likely to be rather a long way away. Or if you follow the other arguments its running the simulation.
	Last edited by geni; 7th January 2013 at 03:39 AM.

7th January 2013, 03:37 AM	#13
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,520	Originally Posted by geni If we accept "god" as being a being able to do everything described in the bible then statisticaly such a being exists. Unfortunately its likely to be rather a long way away. It would also be self-contradictory. The bible is far from being a blueprint for "god".
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

7th January 2013, 03:53 AM	#14
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,578	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla It would also be self-contradictory. The bible is far from being a blueprint for "god". You got a better source for Yahweh? Sure there is the medieval fanfiction but the biblical god is considered the standard version. Yahweh isn't even at the level of a kardashev type II civilisation.

7th January 2013, 03:55 AM	#15
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,520	Originally Posted by geni You got a better source for Yahweh? Sure there is the medieval fanfiction but the biblical god is considered the standard version. Yahweh isn't even at the level of a kardashev type II civilisation. I said the source was self-contradictory. Better source for fictional characters? Try Marvel or DC.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

7th January 2013, 04:42 AM	#16
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,729	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 ... She said Jesus told her that she was needed on earth. I stayed silent. Atheist though I am I said absolutely nothing. I don't want to argue or upset anyone. ... I need a coping mechanism. For me religion didn't work. I often do not share my POV as there is a time and place for everything. When I need solace and comfort I go out and look at the stars and think about the beauty and scale of the universe. Or listen to a dharma talk by Thich Naht Hahn (YMMV)
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

7th January 2013, 04:50 AM	#17
CriticalSock Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: In a little costwold stone cottage. Posts: 1,994	Originally Posted by geni Yes but you live in the costwolds. The UK doesn't really have the same social aspects tied to religion that the US has. There is a church in the village that rings its bells every damn Sunday! But I was raised a JW, so I had a lot of similiar social aspects with religion when growing up (JW's are an American import).

7th January 2013, 05:41 AM	#18
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,578	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla I said the source was self-contradictory. Better source for fictional characters? Try Marvel or DC. The bible is crystal clear compared to the average comic book continuity. Anyway Yahweh appears in DC comics (the Presence).

7th January 2013, 05:50 AM	#19
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,588	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 A good friend of mine and an all around good guy often helps me with my computer issues. He's very religious as is my 90 year old mother. Mother adores him. For Christmas he gave my mother a book written by or about a little boy who says he died and went to heaven only to be sent back. He went further on by telling us that his own daughter after being in a horrible car accident died only to come back four times. She said Jesus told her that she was needed on earth. I stayed silent. Atheist though I am I said absolutely nothing. I don't want to argue or upset anyone. Had he been anyone else I'm really not sure what if anything I would have said. Mother and this man are sincere in their beliefs and I feel left out if not intimidated. As I grow older my former classmates from highschool are professing a belief in Jesus and here again I'm feeling left out. I'm equally certain that this is the only life we have but I'm surrounded by my peers saying Heaven is a great deal better than any situation on earth. I need a coping mechanism. For me religion didn't work. Well, sir, all I can say is that you probably shouldn't feel that a majority view is necessarily the correct one. If you feel that it is isolating to be the only one around you who thinks differently then at least you can take pride in the fact that your beliefs are genuinely your own. In Britain, where I am from, I tend to have a bit of respect for those who believe in a God when people around them are snickering at them. It doesn't mean they are right, of course. But having beliefs which are different from those around you should not be a source of despondency.

7th January 2013, 05:54 AM	#20
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,588	Originally Posted by CriticalSock But I was raised a JW, so I had a lot of similiar social aspects with religion when growing up (JW's are an American import). L'chaim! No need to be so coy! Is JW like G-d?

7th January 2013, 06:05 AM	#21
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,418	If it gets on your nerves to be surrounded by people whose coping mechanism is to imagine life is just some preliminary to be endured and got out of the way before the main event, then maybe you should imagine you're living in another culture - India say. If a friend told a story about their daughter almost dying and being told by a group of Hindu gods to go back to earth, you probably wouldn't feel the urge to say you didn't believe it (because of course there wouldn't be the same level of expectation that you would).

7th January 2013, 06:16 AM	#22
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 3,251	Originally Posted by eight bits There are people in my life with whom I don't discuss religion, just as there are other people in my life with whom I don't discuss politics, and others still with whom I don't discuss sexuality. It's not that religion, politics and sexuality are uninteresting or unimportant to me, but rather that none of them is the totality of my life, nor of anybody else's life whom I know personally. Common ground probably exists, and with a lot of people, maybe even most people. Find the common ground and make your stand there. I find it more interesting to discuss topics on which I disagree with the other party because it allows me to see the weaknesses in my beliefs as well as the rationale behind beliefs that seem irrational to me. The hard part is keeping it civil. For me, this means keeping my beliefs out of the conversation and making it more about theirs; but not picking apart the weaknesses of their argument, but instead finding out why they believe what they believe and what do they really believe. So, my very Catholic mother-in-law and I have lengthy conversations on religion and the state of the Church, and I often come away surprised at how contrary her beliefs are to the church's teachings, but then she is far more rational than the church! What I find odd is how easy it is to make a conversation completely about the other person without that person asking too many questions about what I believe. Once I realized how easy it is to discuss another's beliefs without revealing my own, it took a lot of the stress out of such conversations. Quote: Come to JREF when you need to be "Unholier than thou." You'll do fine, I'd wager. I am often reminded of a quote from my more religious days: my god doesn't require your belief. While sounding very pious, I think this quote was a turning point away from religion for me, but that is another post altogether. I have changed it a bit to: my beliefs do not require your god. And yet I don't think I have ever had to actually say this out loud.
	__________________ shift key currently inoperative. sorry for the inconvenience. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Jonah Baldwin: Talk to her, dad. She's a doctor. Sam Baldwin: Of what? Her first name could be Doctor. - Sleepless in Seattle Last edited by Dr. Keith; 7th January 2013 at 06:17 AM.

7th January 2013, 06:19 AM	#23
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 3,251	Originally Posted by angrysoba L'chaim! No need to be so coy! Is JW like G-d? I read it as Jehovah's Witness, but that could be wrong.
	__________________ shift key currently inoperative. sorry for the inconvenience. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Jonah Baldwin: Talk to her, dad. She's a doctor. Sam Baldwin: Of what? Her first name could be Doctor. - Sleepless in Seattle

7th January 2013, 06:25 AM	#24
Beady Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: 44:57:19N, 73:16:18W Posts: 5,490	Prayer is emotionally satisfying, as is the rest of what many people consider to be their religion. You have to understand two things before you can fully accept that sentence. First, we are emotional creatures first and foremost; cognition is probably our most recent and, therefore, our least-developed faculty and there's no shame in seeking purely emotional reassurance. We are what we are, and the "rational" person is the abberation. Second, virtually no one believes what their holy book actually says; they believe what they want it to say. To them, therefore, there is no conflict between fact and interpretation. Any given human, even the hardest-core skeptic, is quite capable of fully believing a multitude of mutually-contradictory things. Again, we are what we are. Point being, I guess, is that a little bit of irrational belief isn't going to matter much, so go ahead, if it helps. At the very least, there's no really rational reason to worry about it.
	__________________ I tolerate with utmost latitude the right of others to differ with me in opinion without imputing to them criminality. I know too well all the weaknesses and uncertainty of human reason to wonder at its different results. -- Thomas Jefferson

7th January 2013, 06:28 AM	#25
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,171	Originally Posted by CriticalSock Atheism was a breath of fresh air for me when I realised that I didn't have to conform to other peoples ideas and opinions on how I should behave. Because that's all religion is. And while that might sound like an excuse for amoral behaviour, I found that it actually heightened my moral sensitivities. That there is only this one trip through reality that any of us have makes it that much worse to hurt, spoil or (worst of all) curtail anyone else's trip. Mind if I use this quote on my book of face?
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,171	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Roy Moore of Alabama. The world would absolutely benefit by him being run over by any vehicle." - Lowpro

7th January 2013, 06:33 AM	#26
CriticalSock Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: In a little costwold stone cottage. Posts: 1,994	Originally Posted by angrysoba L'chaim! No need to be so coy! Is JW like G-d? Originally Posted by Dr. Keith I read it as Jehovah's Witness, but that could be wrong. Sorry yes, JW is Jehovah's Witnesses. Not being coy, I just thought it was a commonly known acronym. Originally Posted by Polaris Mind if I use this quote on my book of face? Feel free!

7th January 2013, 06:56 AM	#27
The Norseman I Void Warranties Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: The Treasure Valley Posts: 3,242	Originally Posted by geni If we accept "god" as being a being able to do everything described in the bible then statisticaly such a being exists. Unfortunately its likely to be rather a long way away. Or if you follow the other arguments its running the simulation. I'm genuinely not understanding here. What statistics are used that show that the god of the bible exists, assuming the first part of your first sentence?
	__________________ "I have always thought that a wild animal never looks so well as when some obstacle of pronounced durability is between us." "Sticking the flounce is the hardest move in forum gymnastics." -tsig

7th January 2013, 10:11 AM	#28
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,198	Originally Posted by Fudbucker What a depressing worldview you must have. If it's the truth, as he, I and other atheists believe, why does it matter if it's depressing or not? I can't imagine believing in something just because it's comforting. That's convincing yourself to believe in a lie. Besides, from my point of view, believing that all my friends and family who don't believe and practice that belief in the correct way will be tortured for all eternity sounds a lot more depressing to me.

7th January 2013, 10:58 AM	#29
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 3,251	Originally Posted by Ryokan Besides, from my point of view, believing that all my friends and family who don't believe and practice that belief in the correct way will be tortured for all eternity sounds a lot more depressing to me. Yeah, but that is their choice to be tortured. /sarcasm
	__________________ shift key currently inoperative. sorry for the inconvenience. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Jonah Baldwin: Talk to her, dad. She's a doctor. Sam Baldwin: Of what? Her first name could be Doctor. - Sleepless in Seattle

7th January 2013, 12:52 PM	#30
eight bits Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 407	Dr K Quote: I find it more interesting to discuss topics on which I disagree with the other party because it allows me to see the weaknesses in my beliefs as well as the rationale behind beliefs that seem irrational to me. Yes, that can work out: with some of my firends I can't discuss religion, but I can discuss politics (say) with them, and discuss it in those "weakness disclosing" and "understanding the rationale" kinds of way. So, I've had lots and lots of great disagreeing discussions about religion, politics and sexuality, but rarely all of them with the same person.

7th January 2013, 01:38 PM	#31
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,520	Originally Posted by geni The bible is crystal clear compared to the average comic book continuity. Anyway Yahweh appears in DC comics (the Presence). Playing out of his league.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

7th January 2013, 06:35 PM	#32
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,419	Originally Posted by geni If we accept "god" as being a being able to do everything described in the bible then statisticaly such a being exists. What? What do statistics have to do with anything? Statistical analysis is a tool. Applied against a good data set, in can be an illuminating tool. Are you suggesting the Bible is a good data set for anything? Quote: Unfortunately its likely to be rather a long way away. What? What does distance (or for that matter time) have to do with anything? Quote: Or if you follow the other arguments its running the simulation. Which other arguments? Do you have any evidence we're in a simulation? ... I'd accept simulating entities as supernatural creatures, since they are outside the nature defined for us. However, for them, the supernatural is just pushed back a stage. I still don't believe in the supernatural, certainly not as many feel it to act.
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,419	__________________ This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key

7th January 2013, 07:38 PM	#33
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,578	Originally Posted by The Norseman I'm genuinely not understanding here. What statistics are used that show that the god of the bible exists, assuming the first part of your first sentence? Yahweh as depecited in the bible isn't actualy that powerful. At this stage about the only things that yahweh can do that we can't is construct lifeforms and build planets. Given the likely number of planets in the universe and the likely number of civilisations as a result stasticaly we would expect some out there to have that level of ability.

7th January 2013, 07:41 PM	#34
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,578	Originally Posted by Jimbo07 Which other arguments? Do you have any evidence we're in a simulation? If you accept its possible to create a simulation which can contain conscious entities which are unaware that they are in a simulation then depending on how you run the numbers it is possible to argue that we are more likely than not to be living in such a simulation. The trick is not to care.

7th January 2013, 07:58 PM	#35
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,038	Originally Posted by geni Yahweh as depecited in the bible isn't actualy that powerful. At this stage about the only things that yahweh can do that we can't is construct lifeforms and build planets. And we can even win battles against iron chariots, so we're actually one up on him there.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.