Would someone help me find out what caused this to happen

wasapi · 7th January 2013, 01:59 PM

I'll try to make this brief.

Awhile back my step-father went to the hospital for surgery. All went well, and they planned to release him in a few days, earlier then was expected.

At that point I flew down to visit him for a couple of days, and was pleased to find him cheerful and alert. They had taken him off all medication, and were giving him something like Advil.

The day was wonderful. We watched the World Series together which had been a ritual for us. I left after visiting hours, but came back early the next morning.

Again, he was sitting up eating breakfast, rosey cheeks as usual, laughing and talking. He then asked me to sit down because he had something to tell me.

A footnote: This was my step father, he had been my birth fathers best friend. When my dad died, my step father married my mom. I just want to point out that when he talked to me about my real father, he always refered to him as "Your Daddy".

And that is how it started. He told me my "daddy" had "visited" him last night after I left. He had left a message for me about how proud he was of me for how I had raised my sons by myself.

Then there were others who had come to visit. He told me about his conversations with them. What all the "visitors" had in common was they were dead.

Two days later, something went terribly wrong. So, 4 days after this conversation we had, about my daddy and others, he died.

I know there is an answer to explain this in a non-paranormal way. I'm just asking for help figuring it out.

Thank you.

Mister Earl · 7th January 2013, 02:25 PM

Sorry for your loss.

First, it's not all that uncommon to have people on death's door see and hear things. I have a grandmother currently in the process of revoking her metaphorical warranty, and she hears and sees things all the time. For two hours, at one point, she detailed to us the color and mannerisms of a feral cat she had adopted, including its variation on fur tones, eating habits, and how bloody often it yeowled to be let outside.

There is no cat.

El Greco · 7th January 2013, 02:27 PM

I think this is something very common. Towards the end of life or even in other very stressful situations, some brain functions deteriorate. Results are often hallucinations, confusion, delusions etc. After all, everything we hear and see is our brain's interpretation of existing or even non-existing signals. I've heard many times about people who are being visited by the dead during the last days of their lives.

truethat · 7th January 2013, 02:34 PM

Maybe some inner clockwork knows the body doesn't have long to live. Like the way a dog goes to hide when it's going to die. So he dreamed about dead people.

Could be interesting to consider that other such "visitations" are a biological reaction to people sensing impending death, but then they get better. Maybe all these "visitations" are indicators that a person dodged a bullet.

Sorry for your loss

ExMinister · 7th January 2013, 02:40 PM

I know there is a nonparanormal explanation for this.

It's just so odd that he would be so alert and normal for the few days during which he related the story of having been visited, and that he was off medications, which was my other first thought as far as possible explanations. I don't know. When you say something went terribly wrong at the end, was it something his body might have sensed during the days he seemed so well?

I'm sorry for your loss too, Wasapi.

wasapi · 7th January 2013, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by ExMinister

I know there is a nonparanormal explanation for this.

It's just so odd that he would be so alert and normal for the few days during which he related the story of having been visited, and that he was off medications, which was my other first thought as far as possible explanations. I don't know. When you say something went terribly wrong at the end, was it something his body might have sensed during the days he seemed so well?

I'm sorry for your loss too, Wasapi.

Thank you. Part of the reason I had trouble figuring things out, was because there are things that were not typical of what I'm aware of. He wasn't on medication. It wasn't like other death-bed talks from a man at the very end. He was absolutely lucid, and afterwards we engaged in talk of baseball, politics, current events, and he was as sharp in conversations as he always was.

When I asked him if it had possibly be a dream, he became angry. When I said that "something went wrong a couple of days later", I meant that the morning he was to be released, they found that his stomach was bleeding and more surgery needed to be done. But it was too late.

meg · 7th January 2013, 03:14 PM

Before my Dad passed, he talked to invisible people, some of which I know are dead. (Some, I never could figure out who he was talking to, so I don't know.) The hospice gals told me that it's pretty common for dying people to start seeing the people that are already gone. They had some wooey stuff to say about it.

I wonder if maybe when you're dying your subconscious somehow knows, and so kind of like a dream or something, you start hallucinating dead people. It's your brains way of coping or processing the information or something?

I really don't know, obviously.

My deepest sympathy to you Wasapi.

ExMinister · 7th January 2013, 03:14 PM

Was it unusual for your stepdad to have that kind of dream/experience? Did he seem surprised by it or was he already a believer in that kind of thing?

It's also odd because when it happened he wasn't actually dying. He thought he was going home.

On the other hand, his stomach was bleeding. I wonder if this might have started happening during the few days when he seemed okay? Maybe on some level his brain picked it up and recognized the severity of the danger he was in?

wasapi · 7th January 2013, 03:27 PM

When he first told me, it was a bit of a shock for more then one reason.

He had been a refuge for me growing up with a woo-mother. The woman believed in everything, astrology, tarot, mediums, ect. He was the most conservative person I had ever known, always logical and rational, (He was a fan of Randi's), and he and my mother often argued. A believer and skeptic did not work well together.

I only bring this up to help illustrate how out of character this was for him.

dasmiller · 7th January 2013, 04:03 PM

My father had hallucinations when he was recovering from some nearly-fatal problems. He'd seem to be perfectly coherent, and then the conversation would take a very odd turn. At one point, I remember him looking at a small table, very puzzled. He said, "Under the table . . . is that an elephant?" "Uh, no, Dad, it's a purse." "Ah, so it's still an animal." WTF?

He never liked to acknowledge any weakness, so even if he was very confused, he'd fake it as long as he could. Sometimes we'd find him staring at an empty spot on the wall; we knew that he was seeing something, but he knew that we weren't seeing it, so he wouldn't discuss it.

But it made the visits unsettling. He seemed coherent, and he'd do his best to act as if he was 'all there,' but there would be those occasional jarring reminders.

We talked to the hospital's psychiatrist, because we were concerned that there'd been some brain damage, but she said, "In these cases, the mind is the first thing to go and the last thing to come back. I wouldn't worry about it."

She was right; his mind fully recovered (his lungs were never quite the same) and he lived for another nine years.

Anyway, based on that experience, I have to suspect that such hallucinations among seemingly-sane patients probably aren't uncommon, and I wouldn't attach too much significance to the specifics of the hallucination.

And I, too, would like to extend my sympathy. I know it's difficult losing someone like that.

jhunter1163 · 7th January 2013, 04:46 PM

It's common for people in the early stages of dying to have a last few good hours or days; it's referred to in the healthcare field as "Indian summer". After that, as the body begins to shut down for the last time and brain functions begin to deteriorate, hallucinations and similar are commonplace. No matter what you see on TV, it's rare for someone to pass away with their wits fully about them.

My sympathies on your loss, as well.

godless dave · 7th January 2013, 06:30 PM

There seems to be a common belief that the human brain will only hallucinate when subjected to drugs, brain injury, or severe illness. I don't think that's true.

Janadele · 7th January 2013, 08:43 PM

Cherish the message from your father

We are eternal beings. When we pass from this world only our mortal body dies, and one of our previously departed loved ones is assigned to accompany us to the next stage of our eternal existance. It is also not unusual for our departed loved ones to visit in times of need.

Originally Posted by wasapi

...
And that is how it started. He told me my "daddy" had "visited" him last night after I left. He had left a message for me about how proud he was of me for how I had raised my sons by myself.

Then there were others who had come to visit. He told me about his conversations with them. What all the "visitors" had in common was they were dead...

LashL · 7th January 2013, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by wasapi

Part of the reason I had trouble figuring things out, was because there are things that were not typical of what I'm aware of. He wasn't on medication. It wasn't like other death-bed talks from a man at the very end. He was absolutely lucid, and afterwards we engaged in talk of baseball, politics, current events, and he was as sharp in conversations as he always was.

When I asked him if it had possibly be a dream, he became angry. When I said that "something went wrong a couple of days later", I meant that the morning he was to be released, they found that his stomach was bleeding and more surgery needed to be done. But it was too late.

It seems to me that it is not at all unusual or uncommon for someone undergoing surgery to have dying on their mind, and that alone often accounts for imagining, dreaming, or hallucinating visitations from dead people. No medication or anything else is required for that to occur, and it happens a lot. Many people about to undergo surgery think long and hard about the possibility of dying (particularly if they are of a certain age and/or if they have a medical history) and some even sign DNR orders and/or powers of attorney and such if they've thought about it a lot. If your step-father did any of those things, it might be an indication of his mindset at the time and the propensity for imagining, dreaming or hallucinating that he might have had at the time.

It could also be that his body and his mind were reacting to something that his doctors, unfortunately, didn't determine for a couple more days; that is, that he was, in fact, suffering from what turned out to be a fatal medical problem viz internal bleeding. Leaving aside the issue of potential medical malpractice for failure to notice or diagnose internal bleeding following surgery, it is also not at all uncommon for people to imagine, dream, or hallucinate when there is a serious underlying medical problem whether diagnosed or as yet undiagnosed. It is most unfortunate, indeed, if your step-father's problem went undiagnosed, but it is not at all uncommon for underlying medical problems of pre- or post- op surgical patients to lead to imaginings, dreams or hallucinations with an 'after death' theme.

Either way, my sincere condolences for your loss, and rest assured that your step-father wasn't actually visited by any dead people.

MikeG · 7th January 2013, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Cherish the message from your father

We are eternal beings. When we pass from this world only our mortal body dies, and one of our previously departed loved ones is assigned to accompany us to the next stage of our eternal existance. It is also not unusual for our departed loved ones to visit in times of need.

Sorry.....what?

Am I falling for an ironic post here? Well, I'll plough on anyway. You have made 4 extraordinary claims in support of the supernatural here, without any justification, evidence or proof. Why do you think like this, and why should anyone believe what you say on this matter?

Mike

Pixel42 · 8th January 2013, 12:48 AM

@MikeG: Janadele is currently preaching the truth of Joseph Smith's well know scam in the R&P forum, I'm afraid she's perfectly serious. Her "evidence" for her assertions is the burning in the bosom she got when she followed the instructions of Mormon missionaries.

MikeG · 8th January 2013, 01:15 AM

Oh dear, the poor thing......... Janadele should knock on my daughter's door. She converted a Mormon missionary to atheism in 2 hours only a few weeks ago, with a quick look at the history of the religion, and a long explanation of evolution. [/diversion]

Mike

Stray Cat · 8th January 2013, 01:35 AM

Firstly Waspi allow me to convey my condolences.

Secondly, just because your step dad wasn't on drugs doesn't mean that there were no drugs remaining in his system from his surgery. In fact, I would guess (and this is a guess, I'm not a doctor and I've never played a doctor on TV) that if his stomach was bleeding enough to cause his death, something in his system was allowing him to function with no symptoms of such bleeding. Certainly if he was acting completely normal and functioning to the level you say he was and he genuinely thought he was going to be released because his recovery was going so well, something in his system must have been stopping him from feeling the pain of stomach acid entering a wound in his stomach that was bleeding enough to cause his death.

And I'm sorry if the above is too graphic a picture, but let's be thankful that from your description of events, he didn't suffer for this last days and you got to spend some quality time with him.

I've never heard first hand of people in hospitals seeing or talking to dead people, but I have heard several different people who have been in hospital for various reasons report hallucinations of seeing spiders crawling up their arms, when they were otherwise wide awake and alert.

gabeygoat · 8th January 2013, 04:50 AM

wasapi, I can of course have no idea what your step-dad experienced. However, the thing I would take from your conversation is that either a.) he felt your dad would be proud of you, b.) he, himself, was proud of you, or most likely c.) all of the above.
I am sorry for your loss

Comrade Quixote · 8th January 2013, 05:44 AM

Sounds like just the kind of dream someone in hospital and thinking about death might have. half-waking dreams are not uncommon especially when drugs have been involved. sorry to sound dismissive but this does not seem to me to need any real explanation.

Dr. Keith · 8th January 2013, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by gabeygoat

wasapi, I can of course have no idea what your step-dad experienced. However, the thing I would take from your conversation is that either a.) he felt your dad would be proud of you, b.) he, himself, was proud of you, or most likely c.) all of the above.
I am sorry for your loss

This.

Don't let the paranormal aspects cloud his message.

wasapi · 8th January 2013, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by gabeygoat

wasapi, I can of course have no idea what your step-dad experienced. However, the thing I would take from your conversation is that either a.) he felt your dad would be proud of you, b.) he, himself, was proud of you, or most likely c.) all of the above.
I am sorry for your loss

Thank you. I admit, it made me feel good. It had never been said before. Not by anyone in my family. (My mother thought I was a loser because I "couldn't keep a man"." So even from a non paranormal way it was nice to hear.

Cainkane1 · 8th January 2013, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by wasapi

I'll try to make this brief.

Awhile back my step-father went to the hospital for surgery. All went well, and they planned to release him in a few days, earlier then was expected.

At that point I flew down to visit him for a couple of days, and was pleased to find him cheerful and alert. They had taken him off all medication, and were giving him something like Advil.

The day was wonderful. We watched the World Series together which had been a ritual for us. I left after visiting hours, but came back early the next morning.

Again, he was sitting up eating breakfast, rosey cheeks as usual, laughing and talking. He then asked me to sit down because he had something to tell me.

A footnote: This was my step father, he had been my birth fathers best friend. When my dad died, my step father married my mom. I just want to point out that when he talked to me about my real father, he always refered to him as "Your Daddy".

And that is how it started. He told me my "daddy" had "visited" him last night after I left. He had left a message for me about how proud he was of me for how I had raised my sons by myself.

Then there were others who had come to visit. He told me about his conversations with them. What all the "visitors" had in common was they were dead.

Two days later, something went terribly wrong. So, 4 days after this conversation we had, about my daddy and others, he died.

I know there is an answer to explain this in a non-paranormal way. I'm just asking for help figuring it out.

Thank you.

He was dreaming. Perhaps day dreaming. When my step Dad died I was sure he was standing at my bed side. That is until I woke up and realised it was only a dream. Letting go of a friend or loved one isn't easy.

I'm sorry about your Dad.

poblob14 · 8th January 2013, 09:39 AM

I'm guessing he just had a dream. I dream about dead people all the time - I dreamed of my dead brother just last night.

It's also possible that he had a reaction to the removal of his medication (not knowing what that mediction was).

Sorry for your loss, and I'm glad you can take some solace from the experience.

Skeptic Ginger · 8th January 2013, 10:07 AM

I can't add to the dream vs hallucination explanation, but I can say that I've seen more than a few patients who seemed OK or were getting better, then suddenly died.

Tacita · 8th January 2013, 12:58 PM

This happened right before Christmas with my aunt. She was recovering from surgery, seemed fine, and then she was gone. She didn't report any visitations though.

My grandmother hallucinated years before she finally passed. I think deep down she knew they weren't real the way she described them. She was slowly heading into dementia and lost her ability to communicate coherently at all by the end.

I am sorry for your loss.

wasapi · 8th January 2013, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Tacita

This happened right before Christmas with my aunt. She was recovering from surgery, seemed fine, and then she was gone. She didn't report any visitations though.

My grandmother hallucinated years before she finally passed. I think deep down she knew they weren't real the way she described them. She was slowly heading into dementia and lost her ability to communicate coherently at all by the end.

I am sorry for your loss.

Thank you.

Again, my step-father had the sharpest mind through out his life of most anyone I've known. And, he was my comrade in skeptical/rational thinking. It was part of the bond between us. I still miss the mutual eye rolling and winks when someone was talking woo.

LTC8K6 · 8th January 2013, 05:38 PM

Pneumonia caused my father to see, hear, and even smell things. He saw snakes on the floor one time while I was sleeping over and watching him. It was very strange.

In fact, his hallucination of smoke in the house helped him, because he called 911 about the smoke.

When the paramedics checked him out, he had very low blood oxygen and needed to be in the hospital immediately.

Had he not been hallucinating, he probably would have been a goner much sooner.

ExMinister · 8th January 2013, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by wasapi

Thank you.

Again, my step-father had the sharpest mind through out his life of most anyone I've known. And, he was my comrade in skeptical/rational thinking. It was part of the bond between us. I still miss the mutual eye rolling and winks when someone was talking woo.

Julia, I was just wondering, along these lines, when your stepfather shared the dream experiences (I know he insisted they weren't dreams) with you, did it seem in character for him? I mean, did he acknowledge that he had never believed in this kind of thing before?

StankApe · 8th January 2013, 06:21 PM

After reading the OP's story I think it's fairly obvious....

his dad was a wizard

JeanFromBNA · 8th January 2013, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by wasapi

Thank you. I admit, it made me feel good. It had never been said before. Not by anyone in my family. (My mother thought I was a loser because I "couldn't keep a man"." So even from a non paranormal way it was nice to hear.

Perhaps your Stepfather thought that the best way to say those important things was through "someone else." Maybe he thought it would be easier for both of you that way.

Sorry for your loss.

mike3 · 8th January 2013, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by MikeG

Sorry.....what?

Am I falling for an ironic post here? Well, I'll plough on anyway. You have made 4 extraordinary claims in support of the supernatural here, without any justification, evidence or proof. Why do you think like this, and why should anyone believe what you say on this matter?

Mike

I'd bet a lot of money quite a few "ones" will believe them for some "reason", even if it's not logical and the people are someone other than the rational-skeptical people here.

wasapi · 9th January 2013, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by ExMinister

Julia, I was just wondering, along these lines, when your stepfather shared the dream experiences (I know he insisted they weren't dreams) with you, did it seem in character for him? I mean, did he acknowledge that he had never believed in this kind of thing before?

Good question Ex-Minister. No, he didn't acknowledge his former non-believer view. It was probably the most angry I had ever seen him when, at one point, my mother entered the room, right as he was telling me the message from my Daddy, his best friend. My Mother said, "Oh Bill, you must have been dreaming, He turned red with rage and told her to leave the room, and the "messages" were for me from "her Daddy". I decided not to push the dream issue or his former beliefs.

On some level I knew. So, when a nurse came in the room I made an exit to the bathroom and cried. I realized then that I would never see him again. I realized, inspite of how he looked or talked, he was dying. And, on some level his mind knew it. That's not to say I wasn't still confused about his clarity when discussing his visitors.

I wasn't surprised when I got the call a few days later that thing weren't good. They had found the bleeding. Two fathers. Gone.

fuelair · 9th January 2013, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by MikeG

Oh dear, the poor thing......... Janadele should knock on my daughter's door. She converted a Mormon missionary to atheism in 2 hours only a few weeks ago, with a quick look at the history of the religion, and a long explanation of evolution. [/diversion]

Mike

Congratulations on a fine, helpful daughter!!

yomero · 9th January 2013, 11:24 AM

If there was intestinal bleeding, hyperammonemic encephalopathy is a possibility. Particularly if the original disease was hepatic or the patient had recieved drugs that altered liver function.

ETA: Apparently there was no massive bleeding in the days before the patient's death, therefore the probability of encephalopathy is weak. But it illustrates how a metabolic imbalance could account for neurological symptoms.

Ladewig · 9th January 2013, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by wasapi

I know there is an answer to explain this in a non-paranormal way. I'm just asking for help figuring it out.

Thank you.

Sorry for your loss.

I hope you find all of the other answers are valid and perhaps useful.

I agree that non-paranormal explanations are very, very, very far more likely to be the answer. When all is said and done, there may not be enough data to point to a single, comprehensive, rational explanation - but that's OK.

It may be that in the end, all you will have is a comforting message about your life and a better understanding of how some people look at an event and say "Ah, ha. I have witnessed the paranormal," while others see the same event and say "that was kind of weird - I wonder if I will ever know what caused that to happen?"

Miss_Kitt · 9th January 2013, 11:51 AM

wasapi --

First, my sympathy and empathy in your loss. My Dad passed away two Christmases ago (yeah, Dec 15, that was special) and I'm finally doing well enough with that to have happy dreams with him in. I also understand, and applaud, that your Dad and your Daddy are both your parents!

My mother passed away when I was 21, and my (step)mom is my sole surviving parent. She is my parent, even if I didn't live with her full time until I was in 7th grade. I think some people are too connected to the whole biological model, as though parenting was something that could only be done by two people for a given child.

Your Dad knew your Daddy would be proud of you; he knew, on some level, that it was important that you heard that. And it was so important that he took the 'risk' of sharing that perception with you, even though he caught flack from your mom on it; even though he must have known you'd wonder about it.

I think an earlier poster has it right: They're both proud of you. Take that and hold it as a cherished memory. It's hard to lose a loved one, but how much harder would it be to not have had him? I had two moms; you had two Dads. We lucked out, even if we didn't get to keep 'em as long as we wished.

Hugs and a hanky to wipe your eyes with, Miss_Kitt

Cat Tale · 9th January 2013, 11:23 PM

Sorry for your loss. I'm a Daddy's girl, and I know what it's like to lose a father. I wish you a speedy healing from your loss. I know I didn't help with the question, but your situation reminded me of my beloved father.

devnull · 10th January 2013, 12:35 AM

small blood clot to the brain?

Sorry he died tho - that sucks.

wasapi · 10th January 2013, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Miss_Kitt

wasapi --

First, my sympathy and empathy in your loss. My Dad passed away two Christmases ago (yeah, Dec 15, that was special) and I'm finally doing well enough with that to have happy dreams with him in. I also understand, and applaud, that your Dad and your Daddy are both your parents!

My mother passed away when I was 21, and my (step)mom is my sole surviving parent. She is my parent, even if I didn't live with her full time until I was in 7th grade. I think some people are too connected to the whole biological model, as though parenting was something that could only be done by two people for a given child.

Your Dad knew your Daddy would be proud of you; he knew, on some level, that it was important that you heard that. And it was so important that he took the 'risk' of sharing that perception with you, even though he caught flack from your mom on it; even though he must have known you'd wonder about it.

I think an earlier poster has it right: They're both proud of you. Take that and hold it as a cherished memory. It's hard to lose a loved one, but how much harder would it be to not have had him? I had two moms; you had two Dads. We lucked out, even if we didn't get to keep 'em as long as we wished.

Hugs and a hanky to wipe your eyes with, Miss_Kitt

Miss Kitt. You are always so articulate in your post's, Thank you.

Yes, my birth father died of a heart attack on Thanksgiving. I was just a little girl who happened to be sitting on his lap during the dinner that changed my life forever. He was a great man, as well as my hero.

My mother was mentally ill and violent towards me. To this day I believe my daddy talked to his best friend. He already knew he had serious heart problems that meant it was doubtful he would be around to continue to raise me. And, I found out years later he had asked him to protect me if something should happen to him.

And something did happen. Afterward, my step-father tried to protect me from my mother's rages. But he was rarely home, (I can't say that I blame him). Years later, when I had my own two sons, my step-father broke down crying, and asked my forgiveness for not having done more.

He too was a good man, and he died days from Thanksgiving.

It was a rough road I traveled growing up. However, I have never lost sight of the fact I had two men, good men, father's, who helped me navigate that road.

Yeah, I am a daddy's girl. And, this thread has helped me to understand why it was so important for him to give me a message, even having his mind conjure images and voices, as if it was from the other side. Though he had always known otherwise. He did what he needed to do.

And thanks again, Miss Kitt. I may be needing that hankie.

7th January 2013, 01:59 PM	#1
wasapi Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,382	Would someone help me find out what caused this to happen I'll try to make this brief. Awhile back my step-father went to the hospital for surgery. All went well, and they planned to release him in a few days, earlier then was expected. At that point I flew down to visit him for a couple of days, and was pleased to find him cheerful and alert. They had taken him off all medication, and were giving him something like Advil. The day was wonderful. We watched the World Series together which had been a ritual for us. I left after visiting hours, but came back early the next morning. Again, he was sitting up eating breakfast, rosey cheeks as usual, laughing and talking. He then asked me to sit down because he had something to tell me. A footnote: This was my step father, he had been my birth fathers best friend. When my dad died, my step father married my mom. I just want to point out that when he talked to me about my real father, he always refered to him as "Your Daddy". And that is how it started. He told me my "daddy" had "visited" him last night after I left. He had left a message for me about how proud he was of me for how I had raised my sons by myself. Then there were others who had come to visit. He told me about his conversations with them. What all the "visitors" had in common was they were dead. Two days later, something went terribly wrong. So, 4 days after this conversation we had, about my daddy and others, he died. I know there is an answer to explain this in a non-paranormal way. I'm just asking for help figuring it out. Thank you.
wasapi Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,382	__________________ Julia

7th January 2013, 02:27 PM	#3
El Greco Summer worshipper Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Παρά θιν'αλός Posts: 14,259	I think this is something very common. Towards the end of life or even in other very stressful situations, some brain functions deteriorate. Results are often hallucinations, confusion, delusions etc. After all, everything we hear and see is our brain's interpretation of existing or even non-existing signals. I've heard many times about people who are being visited by the dead during the last days of their lives.
	__________________ "Robbing a bank is no crime compared to owning one" - Bertolt Brecht "Let it go and come to bed already, El Greco" - MoeFaux

7th January 2013, 02:34 PM	#4
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,623	Maybe some inner clockwork knows the body doesn't have long to live. Like the way a dog goes to hide when it's going to die. So he dreamed about dead people. Could be interesting to consider that other such "visitations" are a biological reaction to people sensing impending death, but then they get better. Maybe all these "visitations" are indicators that a person dodged a bullet. Sorry for your loss
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,623	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain Last edited by truethat; 7th January 2013 at 02:43 PM.

7th January 2013, 02:40 PM	#5
ExMinister RSL Acolyte Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2,749	I know there is a nonparanormal explanation for this. It's just so odd that he would be so alert and normal for the few days during which he related the story of having been visited, and that he was off medications, which was my other first thought as far as possible explanations. I don't know. When you say something went terribly wrong at the end, was it something his body might have sensed during the days he seemed so well? I'm sorry for your loss too, Wasapi.
ExMinister RSL Acolyte Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2,749	__________________ www.stopsylvia.com

7th January 2013, 03:05 PM	#6
wasapi Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,382	Originally Posted by ExMinister I know there is a nonparanormal explanation for this. It's just so odd that he would be so alert and normal for the few days during which he related the story of having been visited, and that he was off medications, which was my other first thought as far as possible explanations. I don't know. When you say something went terribly wrong at the end, was it something his body might have sensed during the days he seemed so well? I'm sorry for your loss too, Wasapi. Thank you. Part of the reason I had trouble figuring things out, was because there are things that were not typical of what I'm aware of. He wasn't on medication. It wasn't like other death-bed talks from a man at the very end. He was absolutely lucid, and afterwards we engaged in talk of baseball, politics, current events, and he was as sharp in conversations as he always was. When I asked him if it had possibly be a dream, he became angry. When I said that "something went wrong a couple of days later", I meant that the morning he was to be released, they found that his stomach was bleeding and more surgery needed to be done. But it was too late.
wasapi Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,382	__________________ Julia

7th January 2013, 02:25 PM	#2
Mister Earl Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,118	Sorry for your loss. First, it's not all that uncommon to have people on death's door see and hear things. I have a grandmother currently in the process of revoking her metaphorical warranty, and she hears and sees things all the time. For two hours, at one point, she detailed to us the color and mannerisms of a feral cat she had adopted, including its variation on fur tones, eating habits, and how bloody often it yeowled to be let outside. There is no cat.

7th January 2013, 03:14 PM	#7
meg psychic reader Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kansas USA Posts: 1,398	Before my Dad passed, he talked to invisible people, some of which I know are dead. (Some, I never could figure out who he was talking to, so I don't know.) The hospice gals told me that it's pretty common for dying people to start seeing the people that are already gone. They had some wooey stuff to say about it. I wonder if maybe when you're dying your subconscious somehow knows, and so kind of like a dream or something, you start hallucinating dead people. It's your brains way of coping or processing the information or something? I really don't know, obviously. My deepest sympathy to you Wasapi.
	__________________ "If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he next comes to drinking and sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas DeQuincey Last edited by meg; 7th January 2013 at 03:19 PM.

7th January 2013, 03:27 PM	#9
wasapi Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,382	When he first told me, it was a bit of a shock for more then one reason. He had been a refuge for me growing up with a woo-mother. The woman believed in everything, astrology, tarot, mediums, ect. He was the most conservative person I had ever known, always logical and rational, (He was a fan of Randi's), and he and my mother often argued. A believer and skeptic did not work well together. I only bring this up to help illustrate how out of character this was for him.
wasapi Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,382	__________________ Julia

7th January 2013, 04:03 PM	#10
dasmiller Just the right amount of cowbell Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Well past Hither, looking for Yon Posts: 3,459	My father had hallucinations when he was recovering from some nearly-fatal problems. He'd seem to be perfectly coherent, and then the conversation would take a very odd turn. At one point, I remember him looking at a small table, very puzzled. He said, "Under the table . . . is that an elephant?" "Uh, no, Dad, it's a purse." "Ah, so it's still an animal." WTF? He never liked to acknowledge any weakness, so even if he was very confused, he'd fake it as long as he could. Sometimes we'd find him staring at an empty spot on the wall; we knew that he was seeing something, but he knew that we weren't seeing it, so he wouldn't discuss it. But it made the visits unsettling. He seemed coherent, and he'd do his best to act as if he was 'all there,' but there would be those occasional jarring reminders. We talked to the hospital's psychiatrist, because we were concerned that there'd been some brain damage, but she said, "In these cases, the mind is the first thing to go and the last thing to come back. I wouldn't worry about it." She was right; his mind fully recovered (his lungs were never quite the same) and he lived for another nine years. Anyway, based on that experience, I have to suspect that such hallucinations among seemingly-sane patients probably aren't uncommon, and I wouldn't attach too much significance to the specifics of the hallucination. And I, too, would like to extend my sympathy. I know it's difficult losing someone like that.
	__________________ "In times of war, we need warriors. But this isn't a war." - Phil Plaitt

7th January 2013, 04:46 PM	#11
jhunter1163 Beer-Swilling Semiliterate Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Room 118, Bohemian Grove Marriott Posts: 15,557	It's common for people in the early stages of dying to have a last few good hours or days; it's referred to in the healthcare field as "Indian summer". After that, as the body begins to shut down for the last time and brain functions begin to deteriorate, hallucinations and similar are commonplace. No matter what you see on TV, it's rare for someone to pass away with their wits fully about them. My sympathies on your loss, as well.

7th January 2013, 06:30 PM	#12
godless dave Great Dalmuti Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,123	There seems to be a common belief that the human brain will only hallucinate when subjected to drugs, brain injury, or severe illness. I don't think that's true.
	__________________ "If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm

7th January 2013, 08:43 PM	#13
Janadele Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: East Coast Australia Posts: 1,736	Cherish the message from your father We are eternal beings. When we pass from this world only our mortal body dies, and one of our previously departed loved ones is assigned to accompany us to the next stage of our eternal existance. It is also not unusual for our departed loved ones to visit in times of need. Originally Posted by wasapi ... And that is how it started. He told me my "daddy" had "visited" him last night after I left. He had left a message for me about how proud he was of me for how I had raised my sons by myself. Then there were others who had come to visit. He told me about his conversations with them. What all the "visitors" had in common was they were dead...
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7th January 2013, 10:47 PM	#14
LashL Goddess of Legaltainment™ Administrator Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 26,180	Originally Posted by wasapi Part of the reason I had trouble figuring things out, was because there are things that were not typical of what I'm aware of. He wasn't on medication. It wasn't like other death-bed talks from a man at the very end. He was absolutely lucid, and afterwards we engaged in talk of baseball, politics, current events, and he was as sharp in conversations as he always was. When I asked him if it had possibly be a dream, he became angry. When I said that "something went wrong a couple of days later", I meant that the morning he was to be released, they found that his stomach was bleeding and more surgery needed to be done. But it was too late. It seems to me that it is not at all unusual or uncommon for someone undergoing surgery to have dying on their mind, and that alone often accounts for imagining, dreaming, or hallucinating visitations from dead people. No medication or anything else is required for that to occur, and it happens a lot. Many people about to undergo surgery think long and hard about the possibility of dying (particularly if they are of a certain age and/or if they have a medical history) and some even sign DNR orders and/or powers of attorney and such if they've thought about it a lot. If your step-father did any of those things, it might be an indication of his mindset at the time and the propensity for imagining, dreaming or hallucinating that he might have had at the time. It could also be that his body and his mind were reacting to something that his doctors, unfortunately, didn't determine for a couple more days; that is, that he was, in fact, suffering from what turned out to be a fatal medical problem viz internal bleeding. Leaving aside the issue of potential medical malpractice for failure to notice or diagnose internal bleeding following surgery, it is also not at all uncommon for people to imagine, dream, or hallucinate when there is a serious underlying medical problem whether diagnosed or as yet undiagnosed. It is most unfortunate, indeed, if your step-father's problem went undiagnosed, but it is not at all uncommon for underlying medical problems of pre- or post- op surgical patients to lead to imaginings, dreams or hallucinations with an 'after death' theme. Either way, my sincere condolences for your loss, and rest assured that your step-father wasn't actually visited by any dead people.

7th January 2013, 11:43 PM	#15
MikeG Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: UK Posts: 1,529	Originally Posted by Janadele Cherish the message from your father We are eternal beings. When we pass from this world only our mortal body dies, and one of our previously departed loved ones is assigned to accompany us to the next stage of our eternal existance. It is also not unusual for our departed loved ones to visit in times of need. Sorry.....what? Am I falling for an ironic post here? Well, I'll plough on anyway. You have made 4 extraordinary claims in support of the supernatural here, without any justification, evidence or proof. Why do you think like this, and why should anyone believe what you say on this matter? Mike

8th January 2013, 12:48 AM	#16
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 4,221	@MikeG: Janadele is currently preaching the truth of Joseph Smith's well know scam in the R&P forum, I'm afraid she's perfectly serious. Her "evidence" for her assertions is the burning in the bosom she got when she followed the instructions of Mormon missionaries.
	__________________ "The correct scientific response to anything that is not understood is always to look harder for the explanation, not give up and assume a supernatural cause". David Attenborough.

8th January 2013, 01:15 AM	#17
MikeG Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: UK Posts: 1,529	Oh dear, the poor thing......... Janadele should knock on my daughter's door. She converted a Mormon missionary to atheism in 2 hours only a few weeks ago, with a quick look at the history of the religion, and a long explanation of evolution. [/diversion] Mike

8th January 2013, 01:35 AM	#18
Stray Cat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Land That Time Forgot Posts: 6,508	Firstly Waspi allow me to convey my condolences. Secondly, just because your step dad wasn't on drugs doesn't mean that there were no drugs remaining in his system from his surgery. In fact, I would guess (and this is a guess, I'm not a doctor and I've never played a doctor on TV) that if his stomach was bleeding enough to cause his death, something in his system was allowing him to function with no symptoms of such bleeding. Certainly if he was acting completely normal and functioning to the level you say he was and he genuinely thought he was going to be released because his recovery was going so well, something in his system must have been stopping him from feeling the pain of stomach acid entering a wound in his stomach that was bleeding enough to cause his death. And I'm sorry if the above is too graphic a picture, but let's be thankful that from your description of events, he didn't suffer for this last days and you got to spend some quality time with him. I've never heard first hand of people in hospitals seeing or talking to dead people, but I have heard several different people who have been in hospital for various reasons report hallucinations of seeing spiders crawling up their arms, when they were otherwise wide awake and alert.
	__________________ It's only my madness that stops me from going insane!

8th January 2013, 04:50 AM	#19
gabeygoat Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hard Corvallis, Oregon Posts: 667	wasapi, I can of course have no idea what your step-dad experienced. However, the thing I would take from your conversation is that either a.) he felt your dad would be proud of you, b.) he, himself, was proud of you, or most likely c.) all of the above. I am sorry for your loss

8th January 2013, 05:44 AM	#20
Comrade Quixote New Blood Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 14	Sounds like just the kind of dream someone in hospital and thinking about death might have. half-waking dreams are not uncommon especially when drugs have been involved. sorry to sound dismissive but this does not seem to me to need any real explanation.
Comrade Quixote New Blood Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 14

8th January 2013, 07:16 AM	#21
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 3,224	Originally Posted by gabeygoat wasapi, I can of course have no idea what your step-dad experienced. However, the thing I would take from your conversation is that either a.) he felt your dad would be proud of you, b.) he, himself, was proud of you, or most likely c.) all of the above. I am sorry for your loss This. Don't let the paranormal aspects cloud his message.
	__________________ shift key currently inoperative. sorry for the inconvenience. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Jonah Baldwin: Talk to her, dad. She's a doctor. Sam Baldwin: Of what? Her first name could be Doctor. - Sleepless in Seattle

8th January 2013, 08:27 AM	#22
wasapi Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,382	Originally Posted by gabeygoat wasapi, I can of course have no idea what your step-dad experienced. However, the thing I would take from your conversation is that either a.) he felt your dad would be proud of you, b.) he, himself, was proud of you, or most likely c.) all of the above. I am sorry for your loss Thank you. I admit, it made me feel good. It had never been said before. Not by anyone in my family. (My mother thought I was a loser because I "couldn't keep a man"." So even from a non paranormal way it was nice to hear.
wasapi Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,382	__________________ Julia

8th January 2013, 08:31 AM	#23
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,191	Originally Posted by wasapi I'll try to make this brief. Awhile back my step-father went to the hospital for surgery. All went well, and they planned to release him in a few days, earlier then was expected. At that point I flew down to visit him for a couple of days, and was pleased to find him cheerful and alert. They had taken him off all medication, and were giving him something like Advil. The day was wonderful. We watched the World Series together which had been a ritual for us. I left after visiting hours, but came back early the next morning. Again, he was sitting up eating breakfast, rosey cheeks as usual, laughing and talking. He then asked me to sit down because he had something to tell me. A footnote: This was my step father, he had been my birth fathers best friend. When my dad died, my step father married my mom. I just want to point out that when he talked to me about my real father, he always refered to him as "Your Daddy". And that is how it started. He told me my "daddy" had "visited" him last night after I left. He had left a message for me about how proud he was of me for how I had raised my sons by myself. Then there were others who had come to visit. He told me about his conversations with them. What all the "visitors" had in common was they were dead. Two days later, something went terribly wrong. So, 4 days after this conversation we had, about my daddy and others, he died. I know there is an answer to explain this in a non-paranormal way. I'm just asking for help figuring it out. Thank you. He was dreaming. Perhaps day dreaming. When my step Dad died I was sure he was standing at my bed side. That is until I woke up and realised it was only a dream. Letting go of a friend or loved one isn't easy. I'm sorry about your Dad.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

8th January 2013, 09:39 AM	#24
poblob14 Thinker Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 223	I'm guessing he just had a dream. I dream about dead people all the time - I dreamed of my dead brother just last night. It's also possible that he had a reaction to the removal of his medication (not knowing what that mediction was). Sorry for your loss, and I'm glad you can take some solace from the experience.
poblob14 Thinker Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 223

8th January 2013, 10:07 AM	#25
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,515	I can't add to the dream vs hallucination explanation, but I can say that I've seen more than a few patients who seemed OK or were getting better, then suddenly died.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

8th January 2013, 12:58 PM	#26
Tacita Muse Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 508	This happened right before Christmas with my aunt. She was recovering from surgery, seemed fine, and then she was gone. She didn't report any visitations though. My grandmother hallucinated years before she finally passed. I think deep down she knew they weren't real the way she described them. She was slowly heading into dementia and lost her ability to communicate coherently at all by the end. I am sorry for your loss.
Tacita Muse Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 508	__________________ I don't care what people say about me, as long as it isn't true.

8th January 2013, 02:06 PM	#27
wasapi Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,382	Originally Posted by Tacita This happened right before Christmas with my aunt. She was recovering from surgery, seemed fine, and then she was gone. She didn't report any visitations though. My grandmother hallucinated years before she finally passed. I think deep down she knew they weren't real the way she described them. She was slowly heading into dementia and lost her ability to communicate coherently at all by the end. I am sorry for your loss. Thank you. Again, my step-father had the sharpest mind through out his life of most anyone I've known. And, he was my comrade in skeptical/rational thinking. It was part of the bond between us. I still miss the mutual eye rolling and winks when someone was talking woo.
wasapi Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,382	__________________ Julia

8th January 2013, 05:38 PM	#28
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,616	Pneumonia caused my father to see, hear, and even smell things. He saw snakes on the floor one time while I was sleeping over and watching him. It was very strange. In fact, his hallucination of smoke in the house helped him, because he called 911 about the smoke. When the paramedics checked him out, he had very low blood oxygen and needed to be in the hospital immediately. Had he not been hallucinating, he probably would have been a goner much sooner.
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? Last edited by LTC8K6; 8th January 2013 at 05:40 PM.

8th January 2013, 06:11 PM	#29
ExMinister RSL Acolyte Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2,749	Originally Posted by wasapi Thank you. Again, my step-father had the sharpest mind through out his life of most anyone I've known. And, he was my comrade in skeptical/rational thinking. It was part of the bond between us. I still miss the mutual eye rolling and winks when someone was talking woo. Julia, I was just wondering, along these lines, when your stepfather shared the dream experiences (I know he insisted they weren't dreams) with you, did it seem in character for him? I mean, did he acknowledge that he had never believed in this kind of thing before?
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8th January 2013, 06:21 PM	#30
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643	After reading the OP's story I think it's fairly obvious.... his dad was a wizard
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643

8th January 2013, 08:05 PM	#31
JeanFromBNA Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 399	Originally Posted by wasapi Thank you. I admit, it made me feel good. It had never been said before. Not by anyone in my family. (My mother thought I was a loser because I "couldn't keep a man"." So even from a non paranormal way it was nice to hear. Perhaps your Stepfather thought that the best way to say those important things was through "someone else." Maybe he thought it would be easier for both of you that way. Sorry for your loss.

8th January 2013, 09:02 PM	#32
mike3 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,938	Originally Posted by MikeG Sorry.....what? Am I falling for an ironic post here? Well, I'll plough on anyway. You have made 4 extraordinary claims in support of the supernatural here, without any justification, evidence or proof. Why do you think like this, and why should anyone believe what you say on this matter? Mike I'd bet a lot of money quite a few "ones" will believe them for some "reason", even if it's not logical and the people are someone other than the rational-skeptical people here.
mike3 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,938	__________________ “Ego is subversive and devolutionary, truly destructive and terrible; ego is the generator of privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Ego is the fire that burns within the pit of hell, devouring and cosuming everything that enters and leaving utterly nothing behind. Ego is horrible, cruel, and restraining, the darkness of the world, and the doom and bane of man.” – a reaction to that famous Bertrand Russell quote.

9th January 2013, 09:02 AM	#33
wasapi Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,382	Originally Posted by ExMinister Julia, I was just wondering, along these lines, when your stepfather shared the dream experiences (I know he insisted they weren't dreams) with you, did it seem in character for him? I mean, did he acknowledge that he had never believed in this kind of thing before? Good question Ex-Minister. No, he didn't acknowledge his former non-believer view. It was probably the most angry I had ever seen him when, at one point, my mother entered the room, right as he was telling me the message from my Daddy, his best friend. My Mother said, "Oh Bill, you must have been dreaming, He turned red with rage and told her to leave the room, and the "messages" were for me from "her Daddy". I decided not to push the dream issue or his former beliefs. On some level I knew. So, when a nurse came in the room I made an exit to the bathroom and cried. I realized then that I would never see him again. I realized, inspite of how he looked or talked, he was dying. And, on some level his mind knew it. That's not to say I wasn't still confused about his clarity when discussing his visitors. I wasn't surprised when I got the call a few days later that thing weren't good. They had found the bleeding. Two fathers. Gone.
wasapi Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,382	__________________ Julia

9th January 2013, 10:58 AM	#34
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,894	Originally Posted by MikeG Oh dear, the poor thing......... Janadele should knock on my daughter's door. She converted a Mormon missionary to atheism in 2 hours only a few weeks ago, with a quick look at the history of the religion, and a long explanation of evolution. [/diversion] Mike Congratulations on a fine, helpful daughter!!
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9th January 2013, 11:24 AM	#35
yomero Muse Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: North of here South of there Posts: 931	If there was intestinal bleeding, hyperammonemic encephalopathy is a possibility. Particularly if the original disease was hepatic or the patient had recieved drugs that altered liver function. ETA: Apparently there was no massive bleeding in the days before the patient's death, therefore the probability of encephalopathy is weak. But it illustrates how a metabolic imbalance could account for neurological symptoms.
	__________________ And although I'm not often ''amazed'' these days, I am frequently appalled, but that may be simply because reality keeps upping the ante.- ''The Word Detective'', Evan Morris. Last edited by yomero; 9th January 2013 at 11:39 AM. Reason: ETA

9th January 2013, 11:35 AM	#36
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,791	Originally Posted by wasapi I know there is an answer to explain this in a non-paranormal way. I'm just asking for help figuring it out. Thank you. Sorry for your loss. I hope you find all of the other answers are valid and perhaps useful. I agree that non-paranormal explanations are very, very, very far more likely to be the answer. When all is said and done, there may not be enough data to point to a single, comprehensive, rational explanation - but that's OK. It may be that in the end, all you will have is a comforting message about your life and a better understanding of how some people look at an event and say "Ah, ha. I have witnessed the paranormal," while others see the same event and say "that was kind of weird - I wonder if I will ever know what caused that to happen?"
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