Nutcases and stigmatisation

[Brian-M]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Problems are always external to a system. Schizophrenia is the name for a social problem, not for a problem for the individual.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that schizophrenia is an illness caused by society, or are you saying that schizophrenia is not actually an illness, but merely regarded as one by society?

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Trivially false. The failed component in the broken power supply I mended yesterday was definitely not external to the system.

Despite your wish to redefine 'problem', we are not through the looking glass, you are not not Humpty Dumpty and problems are not always external to the system.

If the break was not external to the system then you would still be using it. A system employs working elements to make it run, not broken junk.

Okay... let's take a simpler system. A lamp. Elements that make it run are the power cord, plug, switch, light socket, light bulb.

Now let's say the light bulb, an ordinary incandescent bulb, eventually stops working. The filament has broken due to the tungsten gradually evaporating away during use.

Where is the external cause for this problem?

[Wolrab]

Originally Posted by Brian-M

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that schizophrenia is an illness caused by society, or are you saying that schizophrenia is not actually an illness, but merely regarded as one by society?



Okay... let's take a simpler system. A lamp. Elements that make it run are the power cord, plug, switch, light socket, light bulb.

Now let's say the light bulb, an ordinary incandescent bulb, eventually stops working. The filament has broken due to the tungsten gradually evaporating away during use.

Where is the external cause for this problem?

You, as you aren't using compact florescent bulbs. Why do you hate the Earth?

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Schizophrenia is the name for a social problem, not for a problem for the individual.

Ah. So someone living alone on a desert island who had 'auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking' (to quote Wikipedia) would never be inconvenienced by these symptoms. I see.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by annnnoid

Actually…I’m thinking the argument presented in the OP is a little more nuanced than that…but blast away (knee…meet your buddy… jerk). I’m guessing you haven’t seen the movie. Imagine a situation where that statement actually sounds sane (which freakin universe are you livin in mate ?!?!?!?...which freakin universe are you livin in…mate ?). There are times when your arguments demonstrate all the vision of a peanut butter sandwich.

As for your question (why aren’t they cured?)....obvious answer…because we don’t know how.

Wow annnnoid I like peanut butter but maybe you should try to reference which point I actually made.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Did you read my response. Did you read where I said that the idea that the nutcase is affected by his brain is rubbish?

I have yet to see where you made a coherent argument that personal experience is not a brain process.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Its stigmatisation because they are classifying certain people's behaviour in terms of an unacceptable physical reaction, rather than being honest and saying that their behaviour is unacceptable. This deprives the diagnosed of their meaningful social presence. Everyone knows that they have been rejected, that is, demoted socially to the eternal patient, having no real autonomy. The way out is to reject the diagnostic machinery in toto and become aware of the quackery.

Regarding diabetes, I was talking about social behvaiour. Psychiatry is about judgements on social behaviour, not physical impairment.

I would not say that hearing voices is a social behavior although it can impact social behavior.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

No one is offended, even the nutcases. The very idea.

Anyway. There is a much more intelligent propaganda campaign going on. Lunatic asylums, etc, became insults but only by virtue of the continual, bedrock stigmatisation program called mental health. Now they invent more "illnesses" to keep the loony numbers up, and more industries and money-spin-offs devoted to anti-stigmatisation.

But like Head and Shoulders dandruff shampoo, its shampoo itself that causes dandruff. We need social dandruff. Flakers need reporting, assessment and suppression.

People experienced hallucinations and delusions before psychiatry, they are biological events not the result of conditioning.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

A problem is always external to the system, by definition. Now, if someone says that your experiences are physical problems then they are denying you your full autonomy.

And so you can't replace the thermocouple on your water heater or similar?

Not all mental health treatment is medicine.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Problems are always external to a system. Schizophrenia is the name for a social problem, not for a problem for the individual.

I take it you have extensive data to back that up? Or are you just recycling Szasz?

[Modified]

Originally Posted by Brian-M

There's a stigma associated with buying a case of nuts?

If you try to crack them between your palms, stigmatization may occur.

[wollery]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

I take it you have extensive data to back that up? Or are you just recycling Szasz?

No, he's recycling bovine breakfast.

[catsmate1]

Originally Posted by Stomatopoda

Poe.

Or nutcase.

Originally Posted by Modified

If you try to crack them between your palms, stigmatization may occur.

Walking on a broken walnut shell can have a similar effect.

[Renaiconna]

Thanks to the OP (and others) for reminding me to take my meds today.

[MNBrant]

There is a stigma associated with being known as scizoaffective is that most people, especially at work, will refuse to associate with you. Did the psychiatrists cause this? No, psychiatrists love it when their patients do well. It is part social view, part media and news depiction, and also caused by the fact that to be get disability for a mental condition, you have to be considered incompetent. This is a little worse for you if you have a guardian but is the same throughout. I noticed it at JREF at first when I came here. They would trot out my self proclaimed disability to prove I didn't know what I was saying rather than sticking to my off the wall subjects. Did my gangstalking post really get 18k hits? I wonder who all those people are. Off subject but I typed in who is MNBRANT and came up with my exact everything on a site including my address and current phone number etc. and some old posts I had made. They called them blogs. I am wondering how they got that info. Whats funny is I am by no means the only MNBRANT out there.

[Wolrab]

Originally Posted by MNBrant

There is a stigma associated with being known as scizoaffective is that most people, especially at work, will refuse to associate with you. Did the psychiatrists cause this? No, psychiatrists love it when their patients do well. It is part social view, part media and news depiction, and also caused by the fact that to be get disability for a mental condition, you have to be considered incompetent. This is a little worse for you if you have a guardian but is the same throughout. I noticed it at JREF at first when I came here. They would trot out my self proclaimed disability to prove I didn't know what I was saying rather than sticking to my off the wall subjects. Did my gangstalking post really get 18k hits? I wonder who all those people are. Off subject but I typed in who is MNBRANT and came up with my exact everything on a site including my address and current phone number etc. and some old posts I had made. They called them blogs. I am wondering how they got that info. Whats funny is I am by no means the only MNBRANT out there.

You post on the internet with the tag MNBrandt and you are surprised an internet search engine regurgitates your posts?
Just a quick google shows only 132 out of 1million people in the US have that surname, 35 odd thousand out of 310 million. http://www.britishsurnames.co.uk/surnames/BRANDT/

Add the qualifier of MN and you reduce that number dramatically. Add in that you are a fairly prolific poster on many places. What do you expect?

[MNBrant]

no there are quite a few mnbrants running around the internet. Brant is not an uncommon surname or firstname. Whats funny is that they have my exact age, address, phone number, plus a couple places I posted. I feel like I am being buttrammed by somebody. I wonder who has the time to find all that out. Its not like I post that info and I am haven't been on social media sites since 2006.

[Miss_Kitt]

Originally Posted by Renaiconna

Thanks to the OP (and others) for reminding me to take my meds today.

Welcome to the Forum, renaiconna, and thanks for making me LOL!

That was excellent. -- MK

[quarky]

I'm depressed that I've alienated DD.

I've been to shrinks. Obviously, I'm somewhat disturbed.
I'd have hoped that would pay my admission fee to be engaged in these discussions.

I just saw an interesting video concerning genetic markers and proclivity towards violence.
The interesting thing (nature/nurture stuff) was that the people that had these genetic markers were actually Less prone to violent acts then the back ground populace...unless they were victims of abuse as children.
That seemed to be the catalyst.

In that same vid, an experiment with mice was done: Mice that were bred to be sociopaths, for lack of better terminology, were then removed from their usual grind, and put into a sort of mouse utopia, wherein they had engagement; entertainment; relatively large degrees of freedom; lack of want; etc.
They became new mice, bless their rodent hearts.

Pity is, I can't recall where I saw this. I need to make notations of everything I see.
Anyway, I have a fairly evolved b.s. detector. This was a science experiment, imho, and possibly good news.

A bit 'hippy', perhaps, but imagine if love was the missing ingredient?

It's quite hard to find a decent socio-path that wasn't abandoned or ill-treated as a wee person. Turns out, babies need to be touched to even survive...touched in a good way.

DD, please forgive me.

[Jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Brian-M

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that schizophrenia is an illness caused by society, or are you saying that schizophrenia is not actually an illness, but merely regarded as one by society?



Okay... let's take a simpler system. A lamp. Elements that make it run are the power cord, plug, switch, light socket, light bulb.

Now let's say the light bulb, an ordinary incandescent bulb, eventually stops working. The filament has broken due to the tungsten gradually evaporating away during use.

Where is the external cause for this problem?

The broken light bulb. First, its only a problem for us. It's only broken for us. It isn't a case of "it" itself being broken or a problem.
Second, we don't include surface degradation of the filament into the working model. We try to keep it out. That's why we use argon or whatever inert gas we are using.

I don't know why this point is being argued. It's almost as if people want to say that their problems are caused by their physical self. But then that leads to the idea of chemical possession.

[Jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Ah. So someone living alone on a desert island who had 'auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking' (to quote Wikipedia) would never be inconvenienced by these symptoms. I see.

Why would they be "hallucinations" or "delusions" or "disorganized"? There are no critreria for these.
The very fact that we see objects where there are none, like colours and material objects, could also be trumped up with these pseudo charges.

[Jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

I have yet to see where you made a coherent argument that personal experience is not a brain process.

Why would anyone here want to do that? start a new thread.

[Jonesboy]

Originally Posted by MNBrant

There is a stigma associated with being known as scizoaffective is that most people, especially at work, will refuse to associate with you. Did the psychiatrists cause this? No, psychiatrists love it when their patients do well. It is part social view, part media and news depiction, and also caused by the fact that to be get disability for a mental condition, you have to be considered incompetent. This is a little worse for you if you have a guardian but is the same throughout. I noticed it at JREF at first when I came here. They would trot out my self proclaimed disability to prove I didn't know what I was saying rather than sticking to my off the wall subjects. Did my gangstalking post really get 18k hits? I wonder who all those people are. Off subject but I typed in who is MNBRANT and came up with my exact everything on a site including my address and current phone number etc. and some old posts I had made. They called them blogs. I am wondering how they got that info. Whats funny is I am by no means the only MNBRANT out there.

Psychiatrist's primary love is their job. If a psychiatrist saw someone who denied them their diagnostic authority they would be taken aback.

A psychiatrist loves it when his authority is accepted. This pleases them so much they want you to do well, for that justifies their quackery. I'm not alone in saying this. I personally know people who have trained and deny their training, as well as professors.

Stigmatisation is the reason why people see psychiatrists. They want to be a patient of stigmatisation - it has sweeteners. "It's not my fault that I'm stigmatised (though I deserve to be)" is their swan song.

You went on a bit at the end. I do important things too you know.

[quarky]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

The broken light bulb. First, its only a problem for us. It's only broken for us. It isn't a case of "it" itself being broken or a problem.
Second, we don't include surface degradation of the filament into the working model. We try to keep it out. That's why we use argon or whatever inert gas we are using.

I don't know why this point is being argued. It's almost as if people want to say that their problems are caused by their physical self. But then that leads to the idea of chemical possession.

Check out my post above.

[Jonesboy]

Originally Posted by quarky

Check out my post above.

I did. I almost pressed the reply button but suddenly decided to start a new thread on the point I was going to make. See new thread on genetics.

[Renaiconna]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Psychiatrist's primary love is their job. If a psychiatrist saw someone who denied them their diagnostic authority they would be taken aback.

A psychiatrist loves it when his authority is accepted. This pleases them so much they want you to do well, for that justifies their quackery. I'm not alone in saying this. I personally know people who have trained and deny their training, as well as professors.

Stigmatisation is the reason why people see psychiatrists. They want to be a patient of stigmatisation - it has sweeteners. "It's not my fault that I'm stigmatised (though I deserve to be)" is their swan song.

You went on a bit at the end. I do important things too you know.

Really? Stigmatization is the only reason, is it? You're painting those who seek therapy with quite a broad brush. You are ignoring the fact that almost everyone who seeks psychiatric help does so because they find their symptoms to be interfering with having a normal life.

It's also ignoring the many, many patients who belong to organizations that are set up specifically to fight the stigmatization of mental illness and those that suffer from them, as well as those who simply combat it in their everyday lives.

I kindly submit that your crazy butt not speak for the rest of us who struggle.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Why would they be "hallucinations" or "delusions" or "disorganized"? There are no critreria for these.
The very fact that we see objects where there are none, like colours and material objects, could also be trumped up with these pseudo charges.

Seriously? If a tree falls in the forest and there are no other people there to tell you there wasn't actually any falling tree, then there's no problem? You can't imagine any way in which seeing and hearing things that aren't there could make life difficult for someone who has to survive and take care of themselves all alone?

[MNBrant]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Psychiatrist's primary love is their job. If a psychiatrist saw someone who denied them their diagnostic authority they would be taken aback.

A psychiatrist loves it when his authority is accepted. This pleases them so much they want you to do well, for that justifies their quackery. I'm not alone in saying this. I personally know people who have trained and deny their training, as well as professors.

Stigmatisation is the reason why people see psychiatrists. They want to be a patient of stigmatisation - it has sweeteners. "It's not my fault that I'm stigmatised (though I deserve to be)" is their swan song.

You went on a bit at the end. I do important things too you know.

Yeah, I guess so. I have been posting a bit wildly these past few days because I am starting to be bored and boredom for me is a cause of instability. Now I am back on good footing. I never question a psychiatrists diagnosis; your right. In fact, I don't really care what my diagnosis is. I am not on disability but continue to go. If I was faking it I would have been out of there years ago. If they tell me I need to stay in the hospital I stay. I generally manage my own meds and some psychiatrists don't like it. I would say being stuck on an island with all those disorders would probably be hell for the person. Or heaven if they are being pestered by angels. The meds do help at sometimes.

Are they aliens? Maybe but they do help people sometimes. It might be a racket but, from what I hear, psychiatry is the lowest paid specialty. I do wonder when they are pushing certain meds that are advertised heavily if they are getting something for it. Of course I have the same suspicion of any doctor.

[quarky]

Shrinks have the highest suicide rate of any profession.


(Crap, is someone out there going to ask me for evidence? I hate when that happens.)

[MNBrant]

Originally Posted by quarky

Shrinks have the highest suicide rate of any profession.


(Crap, is someone out there going to ask me for evidence? I hate when that happens.)

Its pretty high, They have to listen to extremely self absorbed people all day. My mom is pretty depressed and sometimes talks about suicide.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Wolrab

Looks to me that someone is upset with their psychiatrist. I'd wager court appointed.

Originally Posted by Wolrab

Come on, you can tell us. What did your (or "your" if you prefer) psychiatrist diagnose stigmatize you with?

Jonesboy might have some silly ideas but responses like these show that show that stigmatization definitely exists and when it is practised by people of authority then it is positively dangerous. The fact that human behaviour can be altered by drugs or other forms of "treament" make it all too tempting to "diagnose" somebody as "mentally ill" simply for being unorthodox.

It always makes me shudder when I read of a court appointed psychiatrist testifying that someone has the delusion that the authorities are trying to capture them. These guys are so full of themselves that they can't even see the irony in saying something like that.

[Sideroxylon]

The creation of various categories of mental disorder, as well as physiological diseases, serve the purpose of guiding us in best approaches to their treatment. For example, there are many different types of cancer and the various subcategories are part of a schema that allows us to predict their behaviors and informs treatment.

The labels themselves as defined by medical health professionals with specific utility in mind do not contain any stigma. It is social attitudes to any given condition that brings about the attachment of stigma to these terms. Consider the fact that terms used to define mental disorders are on a constant treadmill in finding new labels after the general public has turned them into insults.

[Libra]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Why would they be "hallucinations" or "delusions" or "disorganized"? There are no critreria for these.
The very fact that we see objects where there are none, like colours and material objects, could also be trumped up with these pseudo charges.

If you are of the opinion that there are no criteria for hallucinations, you have most definately never taken a psychedelic substance of dose to result in a > level 3 experience.

As for the "delusions" and "disorganized" aspects, for some reason there's plenty of these flavours in alot of your threads, but I will refrain from pointing out the criteria of these for the sake of not stigmatising the sensitive.

[Wolrab]

Originally Posted by psionl0

Jonesboy might have some silly ideas but responses like these show that show that stigmatization definitely exists and when it is practised by people of authority then it is positively dangerous. The fact that human behaviour can be altered by drugs or other forms of "treament" make it all too tempting to "diagnose" somebody as "mentally ill" simply for being unorthodox.

It always makes me shudder when I read of a court appointed psychiatrist testifying that someone has the delusion that the authorities are trying to capture them. These guys are so full of themselves that they can't even see the irony in saying something like that.

I don't see diabetics coming on the forum and acting all full of themselves and talking down to everyone. "Those damned endocrinologists don't know anything, they just like to hear their own voice and have unbridled power." If someone doesn't like snarky responses, don't post.
If anything it is self-stigmatization. He really should get over himself and accept help.

[Mashuna]

Originally Posted by Wolrab

I don't see diabetics coming on the forum and acting all full of themselves and talking down to everyone. "Those damned endocrinologists don't know anything, they just like to hear their own voice and have unbridled power." If someone doesn't like snarky responses, don't post.
If anything it is self-stigmatization. He really should get over himself and accept help.

Well, except for certain proponents of homeopathy. . .

[quarky]

Here's how it went for me:

I live in the rural U.S and don't have insurance.
I was depressed; some friends cajoled me into trying Prozac.
I'd already read a lot about it, including two popular books; one pro; one con.

So, I book an appointment at the local metal health clinic, Adanta, IIRC, was its name.

I was scheduled for a 10 a.m. appointment.
I was initially surprised that the waiting room was rather full. I thought to myself "Why is there all this waiting? It's not like an M.D.s office, wherein they never know what they'll get into. These are 50 minute sessions; very predictable; though one needs to pay for an hour.

So, as I'm waiting, I'm getting annoyed.
I look around at all the other losers; it's all quite humiliating.

The office is stocked with the usual crap magazines, as well as many brochures touting the wonders of Prozac, so I decide to read them. They mostly dismiss the talking cure.

By State law, I needed to see a psychologist first. He was all about the talking cure; asked about my family life, etc. I told him, quite honestly, that I had a "leave it to Beaver" type childhood, and was mostly there to try Prozac, which he could not prescribe.

But he could schedule me a new appointment with the Psychiatrist, a week later.

So, I go in again. Again, the pointless waiting room humiliation.
I finally see the shrink.
The first thing he tells me is what a bunch of crap the talking cure is; tells me many anecdotes about the wonders of ssri's; tells me that Princess Di is on Prozac.

I tell him I want to try it, not because of the Princess, particularly.
But we need to fill out the 50 minute hour, for his sake, so we talk about stuff.
He finds me interesting; I answer his questions, one of which was "Who is the secretary general of the U.N.?" I found this odd, but answered with a little poem...
"Boutrus Boutrus Ghalli, golly gee, one Boutrus is enough for me".
(I spelled his name wrong, but he was the man at that time.)

So the shrink is really enjoying my company. We have some laughs; he gives me the script; off I go.

Part two of this story gets ugly, but it does demonstrate some of the crap of why some people don't trust psycho-pharmacology or the medical industry in the U.S.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Wolrab

If someone doesn't like snarky responses, don't post.
If anything it is self-stigmatization. He really should get over himself and accept help.

When you seriously question someone's sanity just because you don't like their POV or how they say it, you leave yourself open to the same accusation.

[Stomatopoda]

Depression meds don't cure angst.

[Renaiconna]

Originally Posted by Stomatopoda

Depression meds don't cure angst.

Sorry for being a pedant, but, technically, depression meds don't 'cure' anything.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Stigmatisation is the reason why people see psychiatrists.

Most people I knew with schizophrenia sought out treatment because they did not like the auditory hallucinations, and found them distressing distracting and painful.

They were seeking relief from the hallucinations not to be stigmatized.

[MNBrant]

Originally Posted by quarky

Here's how it went for me:

I live in the rural U.S and don't have insurance.
I was depressed; some friends cajoled me into trying Prozac.
I'd already read a lot about it, including two popular books; one pro; one con.

So, I book an appointment at the local metal health clinic, Adanta, IIRC, was its name.

I was scheduled for a 10 a.m. appointment.
I was initially surprised that the waiting room was rather full. I thought to myself "Why is there all this waiting? It's not like an M.D.s office, wherein they never know what they'll get into. These are 50 minute sessions; very predictable; though one needs to pay for an hour.

So, as I'm waiting, I'm getting annoyed.
I look around at all the other losers; it's all quite humiliating.

The office is stocked with the usual crap magazines, as well as many brochures touting the wonders of Prozac, so I decide to read them. They mostly dismiss the talking cure.

By State law, I needed to see a psychologist first. He was all about the talking cure; asked about my family life, etc. I told him, quite honestly, that I had a "leave it to Beaver" type childhood, and was mostly there to try Prozac, which he could not prescribe.

But he could schedule me a new appointment with the Psychiatrist, a week later.

So, I go in again. Again, the pointless waiting room humiliation.
I finally see the shrink.
The first thing he tells me is what a bunch of crap the talking cure is; tells me many anecdotes about the wonders of ssri's; tells me that Princess Di is on Prozac.

I tell him I want to try it, not because of the Princess, particularly.
But we need to fill out the 50 minute hour, for his sake, so we talk about stuff.
He finds me interesting; I answer his questions, one of which was "Who is the secretary general of the U.N.?" I found this odd, but answered with a little poem...
"Boutrus Boutrus Ghalli, golly gee, one Boutrus is enough for me".
(I spelled his name wrong, but he was the man at that time.)

So the shrink is really enjoying my company. We have some laughs; he gives me the script; off I go.

Part two of this story gets ugly, but it does demonstrate some of the crap of why some people don't trust psycho-pharmacology or the medical industry in the U.S.

I had you down for a schizphrenic, but now that I think about it, you come off as a severly depressed person. I can tell you why paitents in the city clinics come in early. They are on disability and bored. Seeing a psychiatrist every three months is the big event in their lives. Of course you got the ones who can never keep an appointment too. Plus people like you who think they can walk in when the reality is most psychriatrists are full and not taking new patients. You can try NAAMI meetings. They are everywhere and free and probably meet others like yourself and possibly make some friends.