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Old 16th January 2013, 02:26 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Recovering Agnostic View Post
Hmm, how odd. I thought it referred to Exodus 20:13: Thou shalt not kill.

Isn't it great that the Bible's such a reliable, consistent basis for morality?
That's why I said not to worry about it.

It's not a suprise to me that you completely ignored the highly improbable occurrence 20:13 = 20:13 where one statement overrules the other in case that 'Thou dost not murder would be translated as Thou shalt not kill.

Even the theologians wouldn't have the slightest idea about the Bible navigation rules if the pope and Julia Gillard didn't come up with very strange statements. Contradictions in the Bible have a purpose - their placement within the Biblical text is not random.
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Old 16th January 2013, 02:32 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Well, as I believe I pointed out, it includes a loaded word "sinner" which was NOT used by any of the people allegedly quoted in the "news" piece. In fact, a few minutes research shows that other papers in Australia that picked up the story intentionally deleted that word. Example:

"Clarification: The original version of the story said religious groups will have the freedom to discriminate against those deemed "sinners". In fact, the draft law refers to those who might cause "injury to religious sensitivities", a group that includes homosexuals."

On a site such as this, I assume that we can all agree that an accurate presentation of the "facts" is vital, agreed?
Facts yes, going along with a whitewash, not so much.

It's a loaded word. Why? "Sin" is, as everyone in this thread knows, exactly what Christians call homosexuality. Why not use their own word, which the only reason the lobby group is not using is because it's not consistent with separation of church and state. And while I know both the UK and Oz don't claim to have a separation clause, I would think the principle of a secular state is ingrained in their political philosophies.

For gays to be told that their natural state of being is a "sin" is pretty offensive. It's the only reason they are being discriminated against in this case. Are these religious employers refusing to hire Muslims? Could they refuse to hire Muslims? Are they refusing to hire atheists?

It's not an "injury to religious sensitivities", it's specifically offensive to the idiots who cherry picked antigay crap out of the Christian Bible. And it is specifically singled out as sinful. Do Christians call atheists and Muslims sinners? Probably some do, but it has a different connotation. The discussion needs labels that speak to the issues, not labels that whitewash the issues.
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Old 16th January 2013, 02:37 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
For gays to be told that their natural state of being is a "sin" is pretty offensive.
Excellent! I think you have nailed right on the head my objection to this so called objective "news" article.

he intentionally used the word "sinner" because he knew that people would find that offensive, even though the people he was originally quoting never used it.

That was why the papers who picked up the story had to issue clarifications. They know the fallacy of an appeal to emotion when they see it, and now so do all of we.

Excellent work.
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Old 16th January 2013, 05:18 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Why would you force religions out of Health care if they are required to meet the standard of care? I'll assume, also, that you are aware that most religious affiliated health care organizations are non-profit. I also don't know who you think should do the "forcing" out of business. Seems a bit big brother-y.
Because this happens. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=247794
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Old 16th January 2013, 05:22 PM   #45
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In Australia, religious schools and hospitals receive public funding. Why should we be paying for discriminatory business practices?
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Old 17th January 2013, 01:28 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
Contradictions in the Bible have a purpose - their placement within the Biblical text is not random.
Absolutely - they're a clear message that the Bible doesn't make sense.
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Old 17th January 2013, 02:04 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Krikkiter View Post
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...115-2crma.html

Prime Minister Julia Gillard has assured religious groups they will have the ''freedom'' under a new rights bill to discriminate against homosexuals and others they deem sinners, according to the head of the Australian Christian Lobby.

Under current law, faith-based organisations, including schools and hospitals, can refuse to hire those they view as sinners if they consider it ''is necessary to avoid injury to the religious sensitivities of adherents of that religion''.


Any thoughts?
I always take flak for airing my views on this, but...

I see Religion - especially Christianity - as an exclusive little club with its own rules and policies which you have to obey and observe to be an 'official member'. Within the remit of that club, as far as I am concerned, members can do what they like, within the law.

It is not right (or legal) for a Christian who works in McDonalds to refuse to serve a homosexual, but (as far as I'm concerned) it is totally acceptable to refuse to allow a homosexual to attend a private Bible meeting or Church Service. It's not morally right, but like I said: their club - their rules.
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Old 17th January 2013, 05:04 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
That's why I said not to worry about it.

It's not a suprise to me that you completely ignored the highly improbable occurrence 20:13 = 20:13 where one statement overrules the other in case that 'Thou dost not murder would be translated as Thou shalt not kill.

Even the theologians wouldn't have the slightest idea about the Bible navigation rules if the pope and Julia Gillard didn't come up with very strange statements. Contradictions in the Bible have a purpose - their placement within the Biblical text is not random.
Right. Special pleadings again.
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Old 17th January 2013, 09:53 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
Contradictions in the Bible have a purpose - their placement within the Biblical text is not random.
They are there to remind us that the bible is a fiction concocted by primitive Bronze Age tribesmen. I hope that you are not suggesting that the contradictions are god's intelligence test, a not very bright child of five could spot them. Those tribesmen were not very smart, the contradictions in Genesis show that whoever wrote it was not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

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Old 17th January 2013, 01:41 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I always take flak for airing my views on this, but...

I see Religion - especially Christianity - as an exclusive little club with its own rules and policies which you have to obey and observe to be an 'official member'. Within the remit of that club, as far as I am concerned, members can do what they like, within the law.

It is not right (or legal) for a Christian who works in McDonalds to refuse to serve a homosexual, but (as far as I'm concerned) it is totally acceptable to refuse to allow a homosexual to attend a private Bible meeting or Church Service. It's not morally right, but like I said: their club - their rules.
I agree with you. It's their rules for their club meetings to determine whom they want to pass the wine and crackers around. However, I don't think it's right that they determine who gets to work in their public institutions as schools and hospitals which are mainly state-funded. The US 1st Amendment got it fully right there.

My country has the same idiotic arrangement, that dates back to a 1917 deal about constitutional amendments between secular and religious parties. Two thirds of the schools are religious schools, and I've seen the discrimination close-by. My mom was an English teacher. She had many a temp job at religious schools; but when it came to giving her a tenure, the school would say nyet because she was atheist.
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Old 17th January 2013, 05:29 PM   #51
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It is a well-known fact that in most cases the decision to become an atheist is based on the knowledge gained in Sunday school. As a consequence, the atheists can't properly understand the connection between Julia Gillard's statement and the Biblical text, Leviticus 20:13 in particular. This passage of the third book of Torah says,

If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Note that the verse explicitly prohibits a male having sex with another male, but excludes a similar relation between females. Why is it so?

Well, it is said that the text in the Bible is inspired by God. But the degree of inspiration varies. In this case the inspiration amounted to an order. Let me explain . . . .

Anthropology is a science which more or less depends on the intervention of luck. If the anthropologists could unearth all the evidence, the history of human evolution would have to be greatly adjusted. For example, finding the bones of species like the Hobbonites would lead to the realization what the nature is actually capable of. Who were the Hobbonites?

It was a culture of males who arrived in Canaan around 1900 BCE from an unknown location. They were not ethnically atypical to the local population, but the means with which they reproduced was anatomically mind blowing: the males had female inner reproductive organs inside their anal area! Obviously, the offspring of the Hobbonites was always a male. The Israelites were kind of puzzled by that, but found no reason to chase the Hobbonites away as way too weird. However, the relationship became problematic when the Israelites found out that the Hobbonites never build any temples or even modest shrines. It took about 400 years for the Israelites to realize that the Hobbonites didn't have any god or gods to worship. Now enter God . . . .

Omniscient as ever, God knew that some two millenia later, there would be individuals living on this planet who will also not worship any gods, but he was tolerant toward the future development. But the year was around 1600 BCE, and God absolutely hated the idea of having a band of atheists running around in the Biblical times. So he ordered the Levites - a local Israelite tribe - to act on his behalf. Now the text in Leviticus 20:13 starts to make sense . . . .

What followed can be likened to a clash of the titans: God vs. Nature.

Since the Hobbonite males couldn't legally reproduce due to the death sentence for doing so, and therefore new males were born in secrecy and in small numbers, mother Nature stepped in to assure the continuance of anatomically special Hobbonites.

How?

In incredibly clever way. Within four generation of secretly born males, the anatomy of reproductive organs changed. Now the Hobbonites evolved extremely long penises. In other words, a Hobbonite male could reproduce himself. This act of course bypassed the prohibited act stated in Leviticus 20:13, because there was no intercourse between two males.

But since God despised the Hobbonites and so did the Israelites (an appeal to authority), the Hobbonites elders finally decided that the tribe would migrate to the west. So they went . . . .

The problem was that the reproduction by self-insemination carries with itself far worse consequences than incest. As the Hobbonites went, they were becoming more and more degenerate. The Hobbonites had problems hunting - outsmarting the deer and the like. Finally their generations reached the area what is today Belgium and couldn't go farther than that. Fortunately, they became immensely popular with local females who supported them. The mating between the Hobbonites and the European females produced anatomically strange results, but within five hundred years or so, the hobbonistic features completely disappeared from the anatomy of the progeny. Unfortunately, the hereditary genetics that govern over the formation of the brain showed signs of evolutionary tardiness and even today, there are individuals whose ancestry can be traced to the Hobbonites.

So that's the real story behind the meaning of Leviticus 20:13.
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Old 17th January 2013, 05:49 PM   #52
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wow epix, that entire post is all kinds of crazy.
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Old 17th January 2013, 05:55 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
They are there to remind us that the bible is a fiction concocted by primitive Bronze Age tribesmen. I hope that you are not suggesting that the contradictions are god's intelligence test, a not very bright child of five could spot them. Those tribesmen were not very smart, the contradictions in Genesis show that whoever wrote it was not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Actually no. The bible is made up from many sources written over a long period of time. They were then merged. It is easy to see that the first few books of the bible came from at least two different sources as they give different names for God.
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Old 17th January 2013, 05:57 PM   #54
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Can we nominate an person's entire body of work for a Stundie?
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Old 17th January 2013, 09:55 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
It is a well-known fact that in most cases the decision to become an atheist is based on the knowledge gained in Sunday school. As a consequence, the atheists can't properly understand the connection between Julia Gillard's statement and the Biblical text, Leviticus 20:13 in particular. This passage of the third book of Torah says,

If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Note that the verse explicitly prohibits a male having sex with another male, but excludes a similar relation between females. Why is it so?

Well, it is said that the text in the Bible is inspired by God. But the degree of inspiration varies. In this case the inspiration amounted to an order. Let me explain . . . .

...
Very amusing, but it doesn't really account for why Homosexual Theists should be discriminated against.
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Old 18th January 2013, 08:56 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Can we nominate an person's entire body of work for a Stundie?
Before my time, but the forumites kind of already did, by naming the award after him.
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Old 18th January 2013, 09:26 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by devnull View Post
wow epix, that entire post is all kinds of crazy.
Finding an epix post that isn't laced with crazy is about as likely as finding evidence for the existence of a magic invisible skybeing that created the universe.
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Old 18th January 2013, 11:18 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Very amusing, but it doesn't really account for why Homosexual Theists should be discriminated against.
The true story of the Hobbonites - the homosexual atheists of the Biblical times - wasn't intended to account for homosexual theists.
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Old 18th January 2013, 12:21 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
The true story of the Hobbonites - the homosexual atheists of the Biblical times - wasn't intended to account for homosexual theists.
Wow! Gay, Atheist, short and love mushrooms. I think I can really identify with this group.
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Old 18th January 2013, 01:01 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
It is a well-known fact that in most cases the decision to become an atheist is based on the knowledge gained in Sunday school. As a consequence, the atheists can't properly understand the connection between Julia Gillard's statement and the Biblical text, Leviticus 20:13 in particular. This passage of the third book of Torah says,

If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Note that the verse explicitly prohibits a male having sex with another male, but excludes a similar relation between females. Why is it so?

Well, it is said that the text in the Bible is inspired by God. But the degree of inspiration varies. In this case the inspiration amounted to an order. Let me explain . . . .

Anthropology is a science which more or less depends on the intervention of luck. If the anthropologists could unearth all the evidence, the history of human evolution would have to be greatly adjusted. For example, finding the bones of species like the Hobbonites would lead to the realization what the nature is actually capable of. Who were the Hobbonites?

It was a culture of males who arrived in Canaan around 1900 BCE from an unknown location. They were not ethnically atypical to the local population, but the means with which they reproduced was anatomically mind blowing: the males had female inner reproductive organs inside their anal area! Obviously, the offspring of the Hobbonites was always a male. The Israelites were kind of puzzled by that, but found no reason to chase the Hobbonites away as way too weird. However, the relationship became problematic when the Israelites found out that the Hobbonites never build any temples or even modest shrines. It took about 400 years for the Israelites to realize that the Hobbonites didn't have any god or gods to worship. Now enter God . . . .

Omniscient as ever, God knew that some two millenia later, there would be individuals living on this planet who will also not worship any gods, but he was tolerant toward the future development. But the year was around 1600 BCE, and God absolutely hated the idea of having a band of atheists running around in the Biblical times. So he ordered the Levites - a local Israelite tribe - to act on his behalf. Now the text in Leviticus 20:13 starts to make sense . . . .

What followed can be likened to a clash of the titans: God vs. Nature.

Since the Hobbonite males couldn't legally reproduce due to the death sentence for doing so, and therefore new males were born in secrecy and in small numbers, mother Nature stepped in to assure the continuance of anatomically special Hobbonites.

How?

In incredibly clever way. Within four generation of secretly born males, the anatomy of reproductive organs changed. Now the Hobbonites evolved extremely long penises. In other words, a Hobbonite male could reproduce himself. This act of course bypassed the prohibited act stated in Leviticus 20:13, because there was no intercourse between two males.

But since God despised the Hobbonites and so did the Israelites (an appeal to authority), the Hobbonites elders finally decided that the tribe would migrate to the west. So they went . . . .

The problem was that the reproduction by self-insemination carries with itself far worse consequences than incest. As the Hobbonites went, they were becoming more and more degenerate. The Hobbonites had problems hunting - outsmarting the deer and the like. Finally their generations reached the area what is today Belgium and couldn't go farther than that. Fortunately, they became immensely popular with local females who supported them. The mating between the Hobbonites and the European females produced anatomically strange results, but within five hundred years or so, the hobbonistic features completely disappeared from the anatomy of the progeny. Unfortunately, the hereditary genetics that govern over the formation of the brain showed signs of evolutionary tardiness and even today, there are individuals whose ancestry can be traced to the Hobbonites.

So that's the real story behind the meaning of Leviticus 20:13.
Another well known fact that you just invented.

God likes hot women on women sex.


400 years? Those Israelites were very slow on the uptake.
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Old 18th January 2013, 01:03 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
The true story of the Hobbonites - the homosexual atheists of the Biblical times - wasn't intended to account for homosexual theists.
Kind of a boy meets anus story.
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Old 18th January 2013, 01:21 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
Let me explain . . . .

[snip]

So that's the real story behind the meaning of Leviticus 20:13.
Is this Tragic Monkey fan fic?
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Old 18th January 2013, 01:29 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
The true story of the Hobbonites - the homosexual atheists of the Biblical times - wasn't intended to account for homosexual theists.
My wife and my kids, they are packed up and leave me
Darling, she said, you are much teh gay
Poor me, the Hobbonites, Ah.
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Old 19th January 2013, 01:17 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
The true story of the Hobbonites - the homosexual atheists of the Biblical times - wasn't intended to account for homosexual theists.
So these Hobbonites weren't likely to be applying for any teaching positions in Catholic Schools then?

How do we account for modern day Homosexuals who want to be Preachers etc, and the Church's attitude towards them?
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Old 19th January 2013, 02:12 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Krikkiter View Post
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...115-2crma.html

Prime Minister Julia Gillard has assured religious groups they will have the ''freedom'' under a new rights bill to discriminate against homosexuals and others they deem sinners, according to the head of the Australian Christian Lobby.

Under current law, faith-based organisations, including schools and hospitals, can refuse to hire those they view as sinners if they consider it ''is necessary to avoid injury to the religious sensitivities of adherents of that religion''.


Any thoughts?
My thought is that the law should be "you shall not discreminate" and applied to everybody. And if religious institution don't want to run afoul of the law they should simply hire nobody. And if it does not work, well bad luck.

And if religion is allowed to discremiante then everybody should be able to.

I see no reason whatsoever to allow religious persuasion to have *MORE* right than anybody else.
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Old 19th January 2013, 04:20 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
I see no reason whatsoever to allow religious persuasion to have *MORE* right than anybody else.
They've almost always claimed exception from the normal rules. The way they avoid prosecution for pedophilia is just one example of their claimed privilege due to being a conduit to their god or gods.
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Old 19th January 2013, 05:24 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I agree with you. It's their rules for their club meetings to determine whom they want to pass the wine and crackers around.


I should have you stuffed and mounted!

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
However, I don't think it's right that they determine who gets to work in their public institutions as schools and hospitals which are mainly state-funded. The US 1st Amendment got it fully right there.
Absolutlely. Belief in their made-up skydaddy, or his 'Bumper Fun Book of Morality and Tall Stories' does not give them that right.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
My country has the same idiotic arrangement, that dates back to a 1917 deal about constitutional amendments between secular and religious parties. Two thirds of the schools are religious schools, and I've seen the discrimination close-by. My mom was an English teacher. She had many a temp job at religious schools; but when it came to giving her a tenure, the school would say nyet because she was atheist.
[SARCASM/] Quite right. A lack of religious belief clearly impacts on a persons ability to teach English well. [/SARCASM]
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Old 19th January 2013, 05:35 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
[SARCASM/] Quite right. A lack of religious belief clearly impacts on a persons ability to teach English well. [/SARCASM]
Be Bigoted For Jesus!
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Old 19th January 2013, 12:23 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
So these Hobbonites weren't likely to be applying for any teaching positions in Catholic Schools then?

How do we account for modern day Homosexuals who want to be Preachers etc, and the Church's attitude towards them?
No, they were not likely to be applying, because around 1600 BCE, there were no Catholic schools.

Male homosexuality almost certainly existed before the Hobbonites. My intention was to clarify the question concerning Leviticus 20:13 where there is no mentioning of female homosexuality.

Homosexuality accounts for most of the conversions from theism to atheism, because the activities and preferences of an atheist are no longer limited by the word of God.

Last edited by epix; 19th January 2013 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 19th January 2013, 12:45 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
Homosexuality accounts for most of the conversions from theism to atheism, because the activities and preferences of an atheist are no longer limited by the word of God.
From which orifice was that assertion extracted?
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Old 19th January 2013, 02:21 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
Homosexuality accounts for most of the conversions from theism to atheism, because the activities and preferences of an atheist are no longer limited by the word of God.
As somebody who is both not heterosexual (I am more bisexual than homosexual) and an atheist, I can safely say that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

First off, I was raised atheist, although I never used that term when I was younger. I knew that my father did not believe in god, but the term atheist was never used. I always thought of myself as a cultural Jew (I was raised on bagels and matzoh, but never went to synagogue or had a Bar Mitzvah).

It was only much later (in college) that I came out as gay (both to myself, then to those around me). Also bear in mind that my father is still quite heterosexual. I was raised as an atheist, he was the one who converted from Judaism to Atheism.

I should also point out, that most atheists that I have met since becoming active in the community are heterosexual. They tend to be less likely to be bigoted against gays than theists, but no less likely to actually be gay themselves.

Most people who convert from theism to atheism tend to do so because of perceived flaws in whatever brand of theism they were raised in. Sure many of them are based in draconian sexual mores that cause a lot of harm. But for many others, like my father, it is the flat out inconsistency of a loving personal god with the reality of the world.

For people like me, who were raised atheist, the issue is that theism just doesn't offer any meaningful answers to, as Guy Noir would put it, life's persistent questions. All of the answers that any religion seems to offer me are nothing more than illusion and wishful thinking. Yes, it would be nice to think that some part of me will never truly die, and that if I live a good life, then I will receive some kind of reward after death (whether it be heaven, 72 virgins or rebirth into a higher form of life). Unfortunately, no religion has yet offered anything close to evidence that it is actually true.
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Old 19th January 2013, 03:32 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by cwalner View Post
As somebody who is both not heterosexual (I am more bisexual than homosexual) and an atheist, I can safely say that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

For people like me, who were raised atheist, the issue is that theism just doesn't offer any meaningful answers to, as Guy Noir would put it, life's persistent questions.
The part of my post to which you are replying referred to the theist/atheist conversion. If you want to accentuate the position of folks like you who were raised atheists, then why do you reply to me?

Your opening statement is just another case of hasty generalization. If you consider yourself bisexual, then that doesn't mean that the whole population of the atheists tends to be bisexual as well.
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Old 19th January 2013, 03:57 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
From which orifice was that assertion extracted?
The second leading reason for the theist/atheist conversion is the avoidance of hell.
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Old 19th January 2013, 04:09 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
The second leading reason for the theist/atheist conversion is the avoidance of hell.

Why would a god as powerful as theists assert god is care what any particular animal on this planet believes; and choose to punish a very small subset of said life on this planet for not believing accordingly?
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Old 19th January 2013, 04:30 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
From which orifice was that assertion extracted?
You have to ask?
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Old 19th January 2013, 04:32 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
The second leading reason for the theist/atheist conversion is the avoidance of hell.


That's just as funny.
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Old 19th January 2013, 04:41 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
The second leading reason for the theist/atheist conversion is the avoidance of hell.
Being equally afraid of Hell and Mordor means I've nothing to avoid.
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Old 19th January 2013, 05:42 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
I see no reason whatsoever to allow religious persuasion to have *MORE* right than anybody else.
while not agreeing that they do (everyone in the US has the right of free association), the First Amendment to the US Constitution specifically protects freedom of religion, which I am certain most people would agree requires separation of church and state.
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Old 19th January 2013, 06:41 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
while not agreeing that they do (everyone in the US has the right of free association), the First Amendment to the US Constitution specifically protects freedom of religion, which I am certain most people would agree requires separation of church and state.
Have you read that amendment?
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Old 19th January 2013, 07:21 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
The part of my post to which you are replying referred to the theist/atheist conversion. If you want to accentuate the position of folks like you who were raised atheists, then why do you reply to me?

Your opening statement is just another case of hasty generalization. If you consider yourself bisexual, then that doesn't mean that the whole population of the atheists tends to be bisexual as well.
First, I addressed the issue of theist/atheist conversions, you just conveniently cut that part out when you replied.

Second, I am well aware that whole population of atheists are not bisexuals. Neither are they homosexuals. Most atheists, like most people, are heterosexual. It is nice that you acknowledge this fact. However, if, as you originally posted that
Originally Posted by epix
Homosexuality accounts for most of the conversions from theism to atheism, because the activities and preferences of an atheist are no longer limited by the word of God.
then would we not expect most atheists to be homosexual?
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