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Old 19th January 2013, 10:57 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Have you read that amendment?
Yes. Have you?
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Old 20th January 2013, 08:59 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
The second leading reason for the theist/atheist conversion is the avoidance of hell.


According to your logic, if a Christian is afraid of going to hell after his death, he can just drop his faith and not go to hell anymore?

And there I was thinking that in most Christians' views, being a heathen is a straight ticket to hell.
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:24 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post


According to your logic, if a Christian is afraid of going to hell after his death, he can just drop his faith and not go to hell anymore?
It's not "according to my logic"; it's according to my observation of the anomaly that forms through the theist-to-atheist conversion.
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:44 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
The second leading reason for the theist/atheist conversion is the avoidance of hell.
Thank you for demonstrating which orifice was the genesis of your earlier assertion by producing yet another from the same source.
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:45 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
It's not "according to my logic"; it's according to my observation of the anomaly that forms through the theist-to-atheist conversion.
Right, right. Just like people don't want to get speeding tickets so they stop believing in the police. Brilliant deduction.
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:53 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by cwalner View Post
First, I addressed the issue of theist/atheist conversions, you just conveniently cut that part out when you replied.
You made your point in the first two paragraphs:
Originally Posted by cwalner View Post
As somebody who is both not heterosexual (I am more bisexual than homosexual) and an atheist, I can safely say that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

First off, I was raised atheist, although I never used that term when I was younger. I knew that my father did not believe in god, but the term atheist was never used. I always thought of myself as a cultural Jew (I was raised on bagels and matzoh, but never went to synagogue or had a Bar Mitzvah).
Only in the 4th paragraph you mentioned the conversion as an afterthought.
Quote:
Second, I am well aware that whole population of atheists are not bisexuals. Neither are they homosexuals. Most atheists, like most people, are heterosexual. It is nice that you acknowledge this fact. However, if, as you originally posted that
"Homosexuality accounts for most of the conversions from theism to atheism, because the activities and preferences of an atheist are no longer limited by the word of God."
then would we not expect most atheists to be homosexual?
Your question is disconnected with what I said in the quote. There seems to be far less atheists who converted from a religion, so I would expect that the the ratio between heterosexual and non-heterosexual atheists would be about the same as in the general population. You would have to take a sample of those folks who converted to atheism, ask about their sexual preference and find out if there is a statistically significant difference in order to see if the result supports or refutes my claim.
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:57 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
It's not "according to my logic"; it's according to my observation of the anomaly that forms through the theist-to-atheist conversion.
Um, no. Unless you can observe other people's thoughts (which, if you can, you should go over to the MDC thread and make some money) you are not observing peoples motivations for conversion, you are deducing them through logic.

The problem is that since your deductions do not match those that have actually converted from theism to atheism, then your premises and/or your logic is flawed.

You have made two claims based on your deductions.

1) that the majority of theist/atheist conversions are motivated by homosexuality.
This breaks down because the logical extension would be a much higher percentage of homosexuals in the atheist community than what is observed.

2) that the second most popular reason is avoidance of Hell.
The problem with that is you misunderstanding of atheist. Atheists do not believe Hell is real, so that there is nothing to avoid. However, if you assume that Hell is real, then there is no surer way to earn your way there, according to any religion with a version of hell, than to convert from theism to atheism. The only way a person would convert thusly, is that they are either masochistic or have already given up their belief in Hell.

I have never met any individual who converted from theism to atheism because they thought that it would give them carte blanche to behave however they wanted. Almost every atheist that I have met that was raised in religion claimed they left because they no longer found solace in the teachings of the religion. In most cases this was due to simply not being able to reconcile the teachings of their particular religion with reality.

In fact, many left because they found the teachings of the religion to be immoral, and left to find a better morality. It is not because they want to do whatever they please, but that they want to consider themselves moral and no longer feel that they can within whatever religion they were raised.
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Old 20th January 2013, 06:03 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
You made your point in the first two paragraphs:

Only in the 4th paragraph you mentioned the conversion as an afterthought.

Your question is disconnected with what I said in the quote. There seems to be far less atheists who converted from a religion, so I would expect that the the ratio between heterosexual and non-heterosexual atheists would be about the same as in the general population. You would have to take a sample of those folks who converted to atheism, ask about their sexual preference and find out if there is a statistically significant difference in order to see if the result supports or refutes my claim.
You know. If you really wanted to find this out, there is a Forum on the internet, that I know you are familiar with, that has a large number of atheists on it. It even allows you to post threads with polls in it. If you truly want to know this based on reality, rather than your assumptions, you should start a thread there and include a poll. I think the answers you get may surprise you.

ETA: I found the question interesting so opened two poll threads to query the two claims made.

JREF Atheists: Were you 'born' an atheist
Converted Atheists: what is your sexuality and did you convert because of it?
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Last edited by cwalner; 20th January 2013 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 20th January 2013, 06:39 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by cwalner View Post
1) that the majority of theist/atheist conversions are motivated by homosexuality.
This breaks down because the logical extension would be a much higher percentage of homosexuals in the atheist community than what is observed.
Nothing is really observed, because there has been no legitimate statistical study answering this particular question. There is only my claim that I can't prove and which you can't disprove either. You can only deny it at will.
Quote:
2) that the second most popular reason is avoidance of Hell.
The problem with that is you misunderstanding of atheist. Atheists do not believe Hell is real, so that there is nothing to avoid.
But Christians do. All you have to do to avoid that everlasting 66 degree Celsius is to convert to atheism.
Quote:
I have never met any individual who converted from theism to atheism because they thought that it would give them carte blanche to behave however they wanted. Almost every atheist that I have met that was raised in religion claimed they left because they no longer found solace in the teachings of the religion. In most cases this was due to simply not being able to reconcile the teachings of their particular religion with reality.

In fact, many left because they found the teachings of the religion to be immoral, and left to find a better morality. It is not because they want to do whatever they please, but that they want to consider themselves moral and no longer feel that they can within whatever religion they were raised.
They won't tell you the truth, because they are no longer the prisoners of the Christian values.

You don't have to observe a large group of atheists to learn something about atheism - it suffices to observe Foster.

Last edited by epix; 20th January 2013 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 20th January 2013, 09:43 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by epix View Post
Nothing is really observed, because there has been no legitimate statistical study answering this particular question. There is only my claim that I can't prove and which you can't disprove either. You can only deny it at will.
Yes, something is observed, although anecdotally. In my personal experience, with atheists I have known and spoke to on this forum, at TAM and in my personal life, there is no higher rate of homosexuality among atheists than in the community at large. This is something that I do look out for, because in general, a male atheist, who is interested sexually in other men is a type of person that I am actively seeking to meet.

Originally Posted by epix View Post
But Christians do. All you have to do to avoid that everlasting 66 degree Celsius is to convert to atheism.
Wrong. What is true has nothing to do with what one's beliefs are. If Hell is real, then a gay Catholic does not save themselves from eternal torment by proclaiming God does not exist. He just becomes a blasphemer, in addition to a homosexual, and only increases his chances of burning in Hell.

Originally Posted by epix View Post
They won't tell you the truth, because they are no longer the prisoners of the Christian values.
what motivation would they have to lie? The atheist community is one of the most accepting of gays that I have found. I am more comfortable being out on this forum and at JREF than I am in real life. In real life, I am hesitant to share my sexuality with new acquaintances. However, if I am among atheists, such as at TAM, I am much less hesitant.

Originally Posted by epix View Post
You don't have to observe a large group of atheists to learn something about atheism - it suffices to observe Foster.
WTF. Who the hell is Foster, and why does this one person have superior knowledge about the opinions of atheists than a large group of atheists.
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Old 21st January 2013, 05:50 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by epix View Post

They won't tell you the truth, because they are no longer the prisoners of the Christian values.

You don't have to observe a large group of atheists to learn something about atheism - it suffices to observe Foster.
Flag thrown.

False claim that becoming religious and/or Christian prevents or discourages one from lying.

5-yard penalty.

Repeat first down.
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Old 21st January 2013, 06:02 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Good Lt View Post
Flag thrown.

False claim that becoming religious and/or Christian prevents or discourages one from lying.

5-yard penalty.

Repeat first down.
Another 5 yards for use of Small Sample Error.
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Old 21st January 2013, 06:13 AM   #93
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Re: Religion Reserves the Right to Discriminate

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
They've almost always claimed exception from the normal rules. The way they avoid prosecution for pedophilia is just one example of their claimed privilege due to being a conduit to their god or gods.
But they so rarely demand legal punishment for those wanton boys who seduce the clergy in a totally hetero way. You just need to bone up on catholic psychology.
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Old 21st January 2013, 07:37 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But they so rarely demand legal punishment for those wanton boys who seduce the clergy in a totally hetero way. You just need to bone up on catholic psychology.
Isn't already the "boner" in church the whole basis of the problem .
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Old 21st January 2013, 09:07 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Isn't already the "boner" in church the whole basis of the problem .
Ya beat me to it.
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Old 21st January 2013, 09:20 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Ya beat me to it.
ftfy
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Old 21st January 2013, 09:54 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by cwalner View Post
ftfy
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Old 21st January 2013, 01:33 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Right, right. Just like people don't want to get speeding tickets so they stop believing in the police. Brilliant deduction.
Works for FOTLers. (not)

ETA: Like all religious the lack or reality conforming to their beliefs confirms them in their beliefs.

Last edited by tsig; 21st January 2013 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 21st January 2013, 01:39 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
I thought the phrase was just a boner.
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Old 21st January 2013, 07:33 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
I thought the phrase was just a boner.
He apparently misunderstood my 'correction'. I had intended for 'beat' to be interpreted in the sense of Paul Rubens. Gawdzilla was thinking more along the lines of the Marquis de Sade.
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Old 21st January 2013, 11:30 PM   #101
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Todays paper have some debate over a Danish church which demand "faith in god" in an job add for a new priest.

Comments from the priests union and theological faculty indicate that perhaps 50% of priests believe in a literal god and that the requirrement is completely outdated as the important part is the christian values, not the superstitious stuff. (or some such)
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Old 22nd January 2013, 05:13 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by cwalner View Post
He apparently misunderstood my 'correction'. I had intended for 'beat' to be interpreted in the sense of Paul Rubens. Gawdzilla was thinking more along the lines of the Marquis de Sade.
Paul Rubens doesn't immediately spring to my mind at any stimulus.
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