School Guard leaves gun in Student Bathroom - Page 3

geni · 19th January 2013, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

Hmmmmmm... not sure I agree with your take. If this guy was a bus driver and drove through a red light with a bus load of kids, or drove a bus load of kids while intoxicated, there would be serious repercussions on the first offense.

Roads are a public space with their own set of agreed rules. Schools aren't.

Quote:

What is it about guns that take the "serious repercussions" out of the equation? Are people so desensitized to the dangers of irresponsible gun handling?

In this case I'm applying the same rule-set as I'd apply to a chemical plant. That got serious enough repercussions for you?

One of the key things with health and safety is you go after the most senior person who failed in their duty of care. Prosecuting the guard who made a foreseeable mistake or the poorly trained lab technician who left a jar of sodium dichromate on the side in a classroom won't improve things. You go after the head teacher or depending on the legalities of the set-up the State Board of Education.

Quote:

I suggest that if gun owners were held responsible for their lapses just like everyone else, many senseless gun tragedies would be avoided and there would be no need to discuss gun bans or restrictions. Gun owners want it both ways. They want to own guns and not be responsible for their lapses of judgement and yet they would not accept that from anyone else.

The complication in this case is that we are talking about an employee rather than a private individual.

BStrong · 19th January 2013, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes

I know what we are being told. It's a message that resonates with the dumbest, least educated segment of the male population. It doesn't resonate with me. I think the US can and damn well should impose stringent gun controls, just as every other civilized country has done without detriment to civil liberties.

Gun nuts are rallying today under the theme of "high noon." That is symptomatic of the problem. These knuckle-dragging bozos see themselves as Marshall Kane, but they're not, and this is not the wild west any more.

You left out the bit about having a small penis.

Please conform to standards.

AlBell · 19th January 2013, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

I'm pretty sure you must be the only person in the entire world who doesn't see "**** happens" as an expression of a cavalier attitude.

I didn't take it that way, nor would I usually do so. Sorry you choose to.

AlBell · 19th January 2013, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by BStrong

My bet would be that he safed (unloaded) it when he removed it from the holster.

If anyone would like to back off of the frothing of the mouth, I posted a list of suggestions back on 18 Dec. for comprehensive gun control laws.

One of my proposals was draconian punshiment for criminal misuse or negligence involving firearms.

I would include a situation such as this as a negligent incident, but what would the posters suggest as punishment in a case like this past termination of employement?

Ten lashes? A day in the stocks being pelted with rotten fruits & vegetables? Hanging?

What's your choice?

Captain_Swoop · 19th January 2013, 03:40 PM

Why did he have to leave his gun by the sink to take a dump?

johnny karate · 19th January 2013, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by AlBell

I didn't take it that way, nor would I usually do so. Sorry you choose to.

Great. Next time you're at a funeral, be sure and tell the bereaved "**** happens". Let us know how that goes for you.

Originally Posted by AlBell

Ten lashes? A day in the stocks being pelted with rotten fruits & vegetables? Hanging?

What's your choice?

Why stop at those three? There are literally hundreds of stupid options no one is even remotely suggesting.

If we're going to turn this into a farce, let's not hold back.

johnny karate · 19th January 2013, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Why did he have to leave his gun by the sink to take a dump?

**** happens.

Quad4_72 · 19th January 2013, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by BStrong

You left out the bit about having a small penis.

Please conform to standards.

Lol I ignored that entire post.

Quad4_72 · 19th January 2013, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

If by "not thinking they are a good comparison" you mean it doesn't support your argument, you are correct, but from a statistical point of view, it is a very accurate comparison.

Lots of things may be statistically similar, but that does not make them relevant to an argument. Keys are handled in a completely different manner than guns. Not to mention, I would be willing to bet that guns and keys are NOT statistically similar in the rate of occurrence. Do you have some studies you could link to to help with your point?

BStrong · 19th January 2013, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Why did he have to leave his gun by the sink to take a dump?

If he had the normal load of duty gear (heh, he said dooty) on his belt you need to remove some of that to be able to get your pants up and down.

The piece is one of the heaviest, and also one of the easiest to remove.

Quad4_72 · 19th January 2013, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by BStrong

If he had the normal load of duty gear (heh, he said dooty) on his belt you need to remove some of that to be able to get your pants up and down.

The piece is one of the heaviest, and also one of the easiest to remove.

I am curious why this would require him removing it from the belt. I have had the same amount of duty gear on before, none of which had to be removed to take care of business.

BStrong · 19th January 2013, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

I am curious why this would require him removing it from the belt. I have had the same amount of duty gear on before, none of which had to be removed to take care of business.

Piece, cuffs, spare mags, OC spray, and whatever else somebody that doesn't need to carry it can figure out that you have to carry, all on a non flexable belt.

It's not like a plate carrier or the old LBE - everything is dragging down the assembly, or fighting you when you want to hitch up after the event.

OnlyTellsTruths · 19th January 2013, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

Exactly, and multiply this by the number of gun owners, and we see how obviously huge the problem is.

Using the lost key anecdote, we can safely assume that millions if a many car owners (as compared to the number in the sample population) forget their keys at such important moments, we can extrapolate that millions of gun owners forget their guns at equally important moments. And there are many more of these important moments for a gun than there are for keys.

I'm assuming that people that say things like that have never lived around guns and car keys.

The odds of some kid finding the forgotten car keys and going out and using the car to kill himself or someone else are not that much different than the odds of some kid finding the forgotten gun and going out and using the gun to kill himself or someone else.

Anyone that tries to say we need to make one of the two punishable and not the other is proving to us, without a doubt, that they have never lived with guns.

Picture yourselves saying that we need to make leaving car keys punishable and you will know how ridiculous you all sound.

thaiboxerken · 19th January 2013, 04:41 PM

No "true responsible gun owner" would ever leave their gun unattended......

OnlyTellsTruths · 19th January 2013, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

The odds of some kid finding the forgotten car keys and going out and using the car to kill himself or someone else are not that much different than the odds of some kid finding the forgotten gun and going out and using the gun to kill himself or someone else.

Here's where someone highlights the above and says "Oh but the forgotten gun is 5 times more likely to get someone killed".

Then we will find out that "5 times more likely" is something like 10 out of a million forgotten keys versus 50 out of a million forgotten guns.

If you think something with .0005 % chance happening should be punishable but something . 0001 % chance happening should not be, then you are a hypocrite.

I'm fine with it if you think that both should be punishable. That is your prerogative. But please, lets not be hypocritical or dishonest.

If you try and conceal the statistics by using phrases like "5 times more likely" then you are not only a hypocrite, you are dishonest.

Now watch someone quote this and point out that the statistics, which are clearly used just as examples, are not the exact specific actual statistics.

They will do anything to not actually face the facts that I bring up.

Countless numbers of people grow up with easily accessible guns around the house without any accidents at all. Countless numbers of households live their daily lives around guns without any accidents. The accidents are very rare, just like an accident resulting from a set of car keys is rare.

In those countless numbers of households many times a gun is left laying around, where a kid or a stranger could get it. And yet statistically no accident happens. The times an accident does happen is very rare. Again, just like when car keys are left out in the open where a kid or a stranger could get them.

So, please, if you want to make one punishable and use how often people leave/forget car keys in your example, please realize how stupid it makes you look in the eyes of anyone who grew up around both car keys and guns.

OnlyTellsTruths · 19th January 2013, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

No "true responsible gun owner" would ever leave their gun unattended......

Do you have BStrong on ignore or something?

It has been pointed out several times that it happens. Someone leaving a gun laying around, lost, not locked up, unattended.

It's rare, but it happens.

What is even more rare is an accident resulting when it does happen!

That is why when someone uses forgotten car keys is as a supposedly "contrary" example it is quite telling that they never lived around guns.

OnlyTellsTruths · 19th January 2013, 05:41 PM

Let's extrapolate the car key analogy that was absurdly brought up directly to the situation in the OP:

A) If a teacher leaves their car keys in the bathroom, a kid finds them and uses the car to kill themselves or someone else, the teacher is probably liable for some type of punishment.

B) If a teacher leaves their car keys in the bathroom, a kid finds them and immediately takes them to lost and found, the teacher is probably not liable for some type of legal punishment, though the teacher could very well be reprimanded by their employer.

C) If a teacher leaves their car keys in the bathroom, and then goes back and gets them themselves, the teacher is probably not liable for some type of punishment.

Now here's the kicker:

D) If a kid steals the car keys out of the teachers desk, pocket, or purse; and the kid uses the car to kill themselves or someone else, the teacher is probably not liable for some type of punishment.

Now replace the words "car keys" in each sentence with "legally carried gun".

It would be the same, except in the case in the OP the gun does not have ammo.

I would have to say it would very likely be harder for a kid to find the correct ammo than it would be for the kid to find which car in the parking lot the keys belong to.

Now, without a doubt, people will focus on this post, especially point B, instead of my two previous posts.

qayak · 19th January 2013, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

Let's extrapolate the car key analogy that was absurdly brought up directly to the situation in the OP:

A) If a teacher leaves their car keys in the bathroom, a kid finds them and uses the car to kill themselves or someone else, the teacher is probably liable for some type of punishment.

B) If a teacher leaves their car keys in the bathroom, a kid finds them and immediately takes them to lost and found, the teacher is probably not liable for some type of legal punishment, though the teacher could very well be reprimanded by their employer.

C) If a teacher leaves their car keys in the bathroom, and then goes back and gets them themselves, the teacher is probably not liable for some type of punishment.

Now here's the kicker:

D) If a kid steals the car keys out of the teachers desk, pocket, or purse; and the kid uses the car to kill themselves or someone else, the teacher is probably not liable for some type of punishment.

Now replace the words "car keys" in each sentence with "legally carried gun".

It would be the same, except in the case in the OP the gun does not have ammo.

I would have to say it would very likely be harder for a kid to find the correct ammo than it would be for the kid to find which car in the parking lot the keys belong to.

Now, without a doubt, people will focus on this post, especially point B, instead of my two previous posts.

We only focus on this post (a poisoning the well fallacy by the way) because it illustrates that you either did not read the key argument, or you have a comprehension problem. The key analogy was not about leaving a key in the washroom for students to discover, it was about people forgetting things that are very important to remember.

Wanna have another go?

qayak · 19th January 2013, 06:27 PM

[quote=OnlyTellsTruths;8928047It's rare, but it happens.[/QUOTE]

No, it is anything but rare. The only good thing is that mostly it doesn't make a difference because other people recognize the danger of guns and fix the problem the stupid gun owner created. Even children.

Sometimes they don't though and it is that sometimes that we are discussing.

qayak · 19th January 2013, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

No "true responsible gun owner" would ever leave their gun unattended......

Yeah, how many times have we been told this?

qayak · 19th January 2013, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

I'm assuming that people that say things like that have never lived around guns and car keys.

The odds of some kid finding the forgotten car keys and going out and using the car to kill himself or someone else are not that much different than the odds of some kid finding the forgotten gun and going out and using the gun to kill himself or someone else.

Anyone that tries to say we need to make one of the two punishable and not the other is proving to us, without a doubt, that they have never lived with guns.

Picture yourselves saying that we need to make leaving car keys punishable and you will know how ridiculous you all sound.

Have you been drinking or did you just fail to read?

tsig · 19th January 2013, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

I'm assuming that people that say things like that have never lived around guns and car keys.

The odds of some kid finding the forgotten car keys and going out and using the car to kill himself or someone else are not that much different than the odds of some kid finding the forgotten gun and going out and using the gun to kill himself or someone else.

Anyone that tries to say we need to make one of the two punishable and not the other is proving to us, without a doubt, that they have never lived with guns.

Picture yourselves saying that we need to make leaving car keys punishable and you will know how ridiculous you all sound.

You are aware that a gun and a car have different purposes?

marplots · 19th January 2013, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

You are aware that a gun and a car have different purposes?

Yes, but they are related. After you kill someone with the gun, you need the car for corpse disposal.

qayak · 19th January 2013, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

Lots of things may be statistically similar, but that does not make them relevant to an argument. Keys are handled in a completely different manner than guns. Not to mention, I would be willing to bet that guns and keys are NOT statistically similar in the rate of occurrence. Do you have some studies you could link to to help with your point?

Your lack of comprehension is amazing but not surprising. The key argument is not about the lethality of keys, it is about forgetting something that is extremely important. JUST LIKE THE SECURITY DUDE FORGOT ABOUT HIS GUN, WHICH IS A RATHER IMPORTANT THING TO FORGET. . . IN AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!

qayak · 19th January 2013, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by marplots

Yes, but they are related. After you kill someone with the gun, you need the car for corpse disposal.

True . . . unless you found the gun in a washroom in which case you can just flush the corpse. (After a little chopping.)

rwguinn · 19th January 2013, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

Your lack of comprehension is amazing but not surprising. The key argument is not about the lethality of keys, it is about forgetting something that is extremely important. JUST LIKE THE SECURITY DUDE FORGOT ABOUT HIS GUN, WHICH IS A RATHER IMPORTANT THING TO FORGET. . . IN AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!

Question:
Was he still in the stall when it was discovered? or did he forget it and leave it there while he went on his rounds?

Big differences, here. The OP does not say.

Elypsis44 · 19th January 2013, 07:44 PM

If only there had been one good, God-fearing, NRA card-carring CCW'er nearby to prevent this.

marplots · 19th January 2013, 07:58 PM

I'm surprised to learn that people carrying guns have to use the bathroom.

BStrong · 19th January 2013, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

Do you have BStrong on ignore or something?

It has been pointed out several times that it happens. Someone leaving a gun laying around, lost, not locked up, unattended.

It's rare, but it happens.

What is even more rare is an accident resulting when it does happen!

That is why when someone uses forgotten car keys is as a supposedly "contrary" example it is quite telling that they never lived around guns.

I have TBK on ignore, so it makes sense.

qayak · 19th January 2013, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by rwguinn

Question:
Was he still in the stall when it was discovered? or did he forget it and leave it there while he went on his rounds?

Big differences, here. The OP does not say.

Yeah, I can see the difference. Either he left his gun unattended or he left his gun unattended. One is much more dangerous than the other. Of course, it could have been worse, he could have left it unattended.

marplots · 19th January 2013, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

Yeah, I can see the difference. Either he left his gun unattended or he left his gun unattended. One is much more dangerous than the other. Of course, it could have been worse, he could have left it unattended.

Well, there's an easy fix here.
Make a sign: "Don't leave your gun in the bathroom. -- Thank you for your cooperation, Management"

I don't think we need to make this a crime. Cause if it's criminal to leave your gun in the bathroom, then only criminals will leave their guns in the bathroom. And, you know, criminals typically have lousy guns, hardly worth finding. What troubles me more are people who leave radioactive material laying around in the lunch room. I don't want to eat that stuff.

lionking · 19th January 2013, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

Yeah, I can see the difference. Either he left his gun unattended or he left his gun unattended. One is much more dangerous than the other. Of course, it could have been worse, he could have left it unattended.

When I read the OP I thought "even the most ardent gun enthusiast couldn't excuse the criminal negligence of this bozo"

I was wrong.

BenBurch · 19th January 2013, 09:13 PM

What I learned; Car keys and loaded (well not in this case) weapons are just as dangerous.

KoihimeNakamura · 19th January 2013, 09:23 PM

.... man, the straw in this thread.

Skeptic Ginger · 19th January 2013, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Magyar

Yup and this guy an ex sherif and the guy who trains others how to behave with guns is the poster child for responsible gun ownership. ...

Once a long time ago I was in a store, a KMart or something. There was a guy at the gun counter with a new bullet wound to the hand. He had been looking at a gun for sale and accidentally shot himself. He apologized for his mistake and said he was a cop and should have known better.

Skeptic Ginger · 19th January 2013, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by marplots

Aw, com'on. What's the chances a homicidal maniac is going to show up just in time to find the gun? Not gonna happen. Homicidal maniacs bring their own guns, and they hardly ever leave them laying around.

But more guns mean more accidental shootings, of kids.

qayak · 19th January 2013, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Once a long time ago I was in a store, a KMart or something. There was a guy at the gun counter with a new bullet wound to the hand. He had been looking at a gun for sale and accidentally shot himself. He apologized for his mistake and said he was a cop and should have known better.

How about this firearms "expert" giving a talk to school kids when . . . Ooooops! . . . "no, I'm okay! It's just my foot with a hole in it!"

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

qayak · 19th January 2013, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

But more guns mean more accidental shootings, of kids.

No, if it's a gun owned by an honest citizen a dead child is a badge of honour. There is nothing more noble to a zealot than sacrificing children to their god. Abraham thought he was setting the bar pretty high, then along came assault rifles, and BAM! BAM! BAM! . . . The new bar is 20 children.

KoihimeNakamura · 19th January 2013, 11:19 PM

Those are perfectly sound arguments, sure

Quad4_72 · 20th January 2013, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by qayak

No, if it's a gun owned by an honest citizen a dead child is a badge of honour. There is nothing more noble to a zealot than sacrificing children to their god. Abraham thought he was setting the bar pretty high, then along came assault rifles, and BAM! BAM! BAM! . . . The new bar is 20 children.

This is probably one of the more disgusting and offensive posts I have seen on this forum in a long time. That includes the 9/11 twoofer nonsense posted as well. Very sick stuff.

19th January 2013, 02:30 PM	#83
AlBell Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,512	Originally Posted by Checkmite I'm pretty sure you must be the only person in the entire world who doesn't see "**** happens" as an expression of a cavalier attitude. I didn't take it that way, nor would I usually do so. Sorry you choose to.
AlBell Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,512	__________________ "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." M. Thatcher, Economics: Share The Wealth. Obamanomics: Share The Pain. Important things in life–beauty, grace, redemption, compassion, loyalty, love–are beyond the reach of reason. Which doesn’t make them any less real.

19th January 2013, 02:35 PM	#84
AlBell Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,512	Originally Posted by BStrong My bet would be that he safed (unloaded) it when he removed it from the holster. If anyone would like to back off of the frothing of the mouth, I posted a list of suggestions back on 18 Dec. for comprehensive gun control laws. One of my proposals was draconian punshiment for criminal misuse or negligence involving firearms. I would include a situation such as this as a negligent incident, but what would the posters suggest as punishment in a case like this past termination of employement? Ten lashes? A day in the stocks being pelted with rotten fruits & vegetables? Hanging? What's your choice?
AlBell Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,512	__________________ "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." M. Thatcher, Economics: Share The Wealth. Obamanomics: Share The Pain. Important things in life–beauty, grace, redemption, compassion, loyalty, love–are beyond the reach of reason. Which doesn’t make them any less real.

19th January 2013, 03:40 PM	#86
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,840	Originally Posted by AlBell I didn't take it that way, nor would I usually do so. Sorry you choose to. Great. Next time you're at a funeral, be sure and tell the bereaved "** happens". Let us know how that goes for you. Originally Posted by AlBell** Ten lashes? A day in the stocks being pelted with rotten fruits & vegetables? Hanging? What's your choice? Why stop at those three? There are literally hundreds of stupid options no one is even remotely suggesting. If we're going to turn this into a farce, let's not hold back.
	__________________ Lost your faith in humanity? Click here to have it restored. Or here.

19th January 2013, 03:41 PM	#87
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,840	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Why did he have to leave his gun by the sink to take a dump? **** happens.
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19th January 2013, 03:56 PM	#88
Quad4_72 AI-EE-YAH! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: USA Posts: 5,830	Originally Posted by BStrong You left out the bit about having a small penis. Please conform to standards. Lol I ignored that entire post.
	__________________ Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken

19th January 2013, 01:48 PM	#81
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,579	Originally Posted by qayak Hmmmmmm... not sure I agree with your take. If this guy was a bus driver and drove through a red light with a bus load of kids, or drove a bus load of kids while intoxicated, there would be serious repercussions on the first offense. Roads are a public space with their own set of agreed rules. Schools aren't. Quote: What is it about guns that take the "serious repercussions" out of the equation? Are people so desensitized to the dangers of irresponsible gun handling? In this case I'm applying the same rule-set as I'd apply to a chemical plant. That got serious enough repercussions for you? One of the key things with health and safety is you go after the most senior person who failed in their duty of care. Prosecuting the guard who made a foreseeable mistake or the poorly trained lab technician who left a jar of sodium dichromate on the side in a classroom won't improve things. You go after the head teacher or depending on the legalities of the set-up the State Board of Education. Quote: I suggest that if gun owners were held responsible for their lapses just like everyone else, many senseless gun tragedies would be avoided and there would be no need to discuss gun bans or restrictions. Gun owners want it both ways. They want to own guns and not be responsible for their lapses of judgement and yet they would not accept that from anyone else. The complication in this case is that we are talking about an employee rather than a private individual.

19th January 2013, 02:12 PM	#82
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,831	Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes I know what we are being told. It's a message that resonates with the dumbest, least educated segment of the male population. It doesn't resonate with me. I think the US can and damn well should impose stringent gun controls, just as every other civilized country has done without detriment to civil liberties. Gun nuts are rallying today under the theme of "high noon." That is symptomatic of the problem. These knuckle-dragging bozos see themselves as Marshall Kane, but they're not, and this is not the wild west any more. You left out the bit about having a small penis. Please conform to standards.

19th January 2013, 03:40 PM	#85
Captain_Swoop Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 3,952	Why did he have to leave his gun by the sink to take a dump?

19th January 2013, 04:00 PM	#89
Quad4_72 AI-EE-YAH! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: USA Posts: 5,830	Originally Posted by qayak If by "not thinking they are a good comparison" you mean it doesn't support your argument, you are correct, but from a statistical point of view, it is a very accurate comparison. Lots of things may be statistically similar, but that does not make them relevant to an argument. Keys are handled in a completely different manner than guns. Not to mention, I would be willing to bet that guns and keys are NOT statistically similar in the rate of occurrence. Do you have some studies you could link to to help with your point?
	__________________ Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken

19th January 2013, 04:02 PM	#90
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,831	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Why did he have to leave his gun by the sink to take a dump? If he had the normal load of duty gear (heh, he said dooty) on his belt you need to remove some of that to be able to get your pants up and down. The piece is one of the heaviest, and also one of the easiest to remove.

19th January 2013, 04:08 PM	#91
Quad4_72 AI-EE-YAH! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: USA Posts: 5,830	Originally Posted by BStrong If he had the normal load of duty gear (heh, he said dooty) on his belt you need to remove some of that to be able to get your pants up and down. The piece is one of the heaviest, and also one of the easiest to remove. I am curious why this would require him removing it from the belt. I have had the same amount of duty gear on before, none of which had to be removed to take care of business.
	__________________ Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken

19th January 2013, 04:17 PM	#92
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,831	Originally Posted by Quad4_72 I am curious why this would require him removing it from the belt. I have had the same amount of duty gear on before, none of which had to be removed to take care of business. Piece, cuffs, spare mags, OC spray, and whatever else somebody that doesn't need to carry it can figure out that you have to carry, all on a non flexable belt. It's not like a plate carrier or the old LBE - everything is dragging down the assembly, or fighting you when you want to hitch up after the event.

19th January 2013, 04:39 PM	#93
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,811	Originally Posted by qayak Exactly, and multiply this by the number of gun owners, and we see how obviously huge the problem is. Using the lost key anecdote, we can safely assume that millions if a many car owners (as compared to the number in the sample population) forget their keys at such important moments, we can extrapolate that millions of gun owners forget their guns at equally important moments. And there are many more of these important moments for a gun than there are for keys. I'm assuming that people that say things like that have never lived around guns and car keys. The odds of some kid finding the forgotten car keys and going out and using the car to kill himself or someone else are not that much different than the odds of some kid finding the forgotten gun and going out and using the gun to kill himself or someone else. Anyone that tries to say we need to make one of the two punishable and not the other is proving to us, without a doubt, that they have never lived with guns. Picture yourselves saying that we need to make leaving car keys punishable and you will know how ridiculous you all sound.
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,811	__________________ ________________________

19th January 2013, 04:41 PM	#94
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,995	No "true responsible gun owner" would ever leave their gun unattended......
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

19th January 2013, 04:54 PM	#95
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,811	Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths The odds of some kid finding the forgotten car keys and going out and using the car to kill himself or someone else are not that much different than the odds of some kid finding the forgotten gun and going out and using the gun to kill himself or someone else. Here's where someone highlights the above and says "Oh but the forgotten gun is 5 times more likely to get someone killed". Then we will find out that "5 times more likely" is something like 10 out of a million forgotten keys versus 50 out of a million forgotten guns. If you think something with .0005 % chance happening should be punishable but something . 0001 % chance happening should not be, then you are a hypocrite. I'm fine with it if you think that both should be punishable. That is your prerogative. But please, lets not be hypocritical or dishonest. If you try and conceal the statistics by using phrases like "5 times more likely" then you are not only a hypocrite, you are dishonest. Now watch someone quote this and point out that the statistics, which are clearly used just as examples, are not the exact specific actual statistics. They will do anything to not actually face the facts that I bring up. Countless numbers of people grow up with easily accessible guns around the house without any accidents at all. Countless numbers of households live their daily lives around guns without any accidents. The accidents are very rare, just like an accident resulting from a set of car keys is rare. In those countless numbers of households many times a gun is left laying around, where a kid or a stranger could get it. And yet statistically no accident happens. The times an accident does happen is very rare. Again, just like when car keys are left out in the open where a kid or a stranger could get them. So, please, if you want to make one punishable and use how often people leave/forget car keys in your example, please realize how stupid it makes you look in the eyes of anyone who grew up around both car keys and guns.
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19th January 2013, 04:57 PM	#96
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,811	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken No "true responsible gun owner" would ever leave their gun unattended...... Do you have BStrong on ignore or something? It has been pointed out several times that it happens. Someone leaving a gun laying around, lost, not locked up, unattended. It's rare, but it happens. What is even more rare is an accident resulting when it does happen! That is why when someone uses forgotten car keys is as a supposedly "contrary" example it is quite telling that they never lived around guns.
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19th January 2013, 05:41 PM	#97
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,811	Let's extrapolate the car key analogy that was absurdly brought up directly to the situation in the OP: A) If a teacher leaves their car keys in the bathroom, a kid finds them and uses the car to kill themselves or someone else, the teacher is probably liable for some type of punishment. B) If a teacher leaves their car keys in the bathroom, a kid finds them and immediately takes them to lost and found, the teacher is probably not liable for some type of legal punishment, though the teacher could very well be reprimanded by their employer. C) If a teacher leaves their car keys in the bathroom, and then goes back and gets them themselves, the teacher is probably not liable for some type of punishment. Now here's the kicker: D) If a kid steals the car keys out of the teachers desk, pocket, or purse; and the kid uses the car to kill themselves or someone else, the teacher is probably not liable for some type of punishment. Now replace the words "car keys" in each sentence with "legally carried gun". It would be the same, except in the case in the OP the gun does not have ammo. I would have to say it would very likely be harder for a kid to find the correct ammo than it would be for the kid to find which car in the parking lot the keys belong to. Now, without a doubt, people will focus on this post, especially point B, instead of my two previous posts.
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19th January 2013, 06:24 PM	#98
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,715	Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths Let's extrapolate the car key analogy that was absurdly brought up directly to the situation in the OP: A) If a teacher leaves their car keys in the bathroom, a kid finds them and uses the car to kill themselves or someone else, the teacher is probably liable for some type of punishment. B) If a teacher leaves their car keys in the bathroom, a kid finds them and immediately takes them to lost and found, the teacher is probably not liable for some type of legal punishment, though the teacher could very well be reprimanded by their employer. C) If a teacher leaves their car keys in the bathroom, and then goes back and gets them themselves, the teacher is probably not liable for some type of punishment. Now here's the kicker: D) If a kid steals the car keys out of the teachers desk, pocket, or purse; and the kid uses the car to kill themselves or someone else, the teacher is probably not liable for some type of punishment. Now replace the words "car keys" in each sentence with "legally carried gun". It would be the same, except in the case in the OP the gun does not have ammo. I would have to say it would very likely be harder for a kid to find the correct ammo than it would be for the kid to find which car in the parking lot the keys belong to. Now, without a doubt, people will focus on this post, especially point B, instead of my two previous posts. We only focus on this post (a poisoning the well fallacy by the way) because it illustrates that you either did not read the key argument, or you have a comprehension problem. The key analogy was not about leaving a key in the washroom for students to discover, it was about people forgetting things that are very important to remember. Wanna have another go?
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19th January 2013, 06:27 PM	#99
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,715	[quote=OnlyTellsTruths;8928047It's rare, but it happens.[/QUOTE] No, it is anything but rare. The only good thing is that mostly it doesn't make a difference because other people recognize the danger of guns and fix the problem the stupid gun owner created. Even children. Sometimes they don't though and it is that sometimes that we are discussing.
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19th January 2013, 06:29 PM	#100
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,715	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken No "true responsible gun owner" would ever leave their gun unattended...... Yeah, how many times have we been told this?
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19th January 2013, 06:31 PM	#101
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,715	Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths I'm assuming that people that say things like that have never lived around guns and car keys. The odds of some kid finding the forgotten car keys and going out and using the car to kill himself or someone else are not that much different than the odds of some kid finding the forgotten gun and going out and using the gun to kill himself or someone else. Anyone that tries to say we need to make one of the two punishable and not the other is proving to us, without a doubt, that they have never lived with guns. Picture yourselves saying that we need to make leaving car keys punishable and you will know how ridiculous you all sound. Have you been drinking or did you just fail to read?
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19th January 2013, 06:43 PM	#102
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,800	Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths I'm assuming that people that say things like that have never lived around guns and car keys. The odds of some kid finding the forgotten car keys and going out and using the car to kill himself or someone else are not that much different than the odds of some kid finding the forgotten gun and going out and using the gun to kill himself or someone else. Anyone that tries to say we need to make one of the two punishable and not the other is proving to us, without a doubt, that they have never lived with guns. Picture yourselves saying that we need to make leaving car keys punishable and you will know how ridiculous you all sound. You are aware that a gun and a car have different purposes?

19th January 2013, 06:54 PM	#103
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,420	Originally Posted by tsig You are aware that a gun and a car have different purposes? Yes, but they are related. After you kill someone with the gun, you need the car for corpse disposal.
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19th January 2013, 06:54 PM	#104
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,715	Originally Posted by Quad4_72 Lots of things may be statistically similar, but that does not make them relevant to an argument. Keys are handled in a completely different manner than guns. Not to mention, I would be willing to bet that guns and keys are NOT statistically similar in the rate of occurrence. Do you have some studies you could link to to help with your point? Your lack of comprehension is amazing but not surprising. The key argument is not about the lethality of keys, it is about forgetting something that is extremely important. JUST LIKE THE SECURITY DUDE FORGOT ABOUT HIS GUN, WHICH IS A RATHER IMPORTANT THING TO FORGET. . . IN AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!
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19th January 2013, 06:56 PM	#105
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,715	Originally Posted by marplots Yes, but they are related. After you kill someone with the gun, you need the car for corpse disposal. True . . . unless you found the gun in a washroom in which case you can just flush the corpse. (After a little chopping.)
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19th January 2013, 06:57 PM	#106
rwguinn Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 8,456	Originally Posted by qayak Your lack of comprehension is amazing but not surprising. The key argument is not about the lethality of keys, it is about forgetting something that is extremely important. JUST LIKE THE SECURITY DUDE FORGOT ABOUT HIS GUN, WHICH IS A RATHER IMPORTANT THING TO FORGET. . . IN AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL! Question: Was he still in the stall when it was discovered? or did he forget it and leave it there while he went on his rounds? Big differences, here. The OP does not say.
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19th January 2013, 07:44 PM	#107
Elypsis44 Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 3,466	If only there had been one good, God-fearing, NRA card-carring CCW'er nearby to prevent this.
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19th January 2013, 07:58 PM	#108
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,420	I'm surprised to learn that people carrying guns have to use the bathroom.
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19th January 2013, 08:06 PM	#109
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,831	Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths Do you have BStrong on ignore or something? It has been pointed out several times that it happens. Someone leaving a gun laying around, lost, not locked up, unattended. It's rare, but it happens. What is even more rare is an accident resulting when it does happen! That is why when someone uses forgotten car keys is as a supposedly "contrary" example it is quite telling that they never lived around guns. I have TBK on ignore, so it makes sense.

19th January 2013, 08:14 PM	#110
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,715	Originally Posted by rwguinn Question: Was he still in the stall when it was discovered? or did he forget it and leave it there while he went on his rounds? Big differences, here. The OP does not say. Yeah, I can see the difference. Either he left his gun unattended or he left his gun unattended. One is much more dangerous than the other. Of course, it could have been worse, he could have left it unattended.
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19th January 2013, 08:24 PM	#111
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,420	Originally Posted by qayak Yeah, I can see the difference. Either he left his gun unattended or he left his gun unattended. One is much more dangerous than the other. Of course, it could have been worse, he could have left it unattended. Well, there's an easy fix here. Make a sign: "Don't leave your gun in the bathroom. -- Thank you for your cooperation, Management" I don't think we need to make this a crime. Cause if it's criminal to leave your gun in the bathroom, then only criminals will leave their guns in the bathroom. And, you know, criminals typically have lousy guns, hardly worth finding. What troubles me more are people who leave radioactive material laying around in the lunch room. I don't want to eat that stuff.
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19th January 2013, 08:31 PM	#112
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,688	Originally Posted by qayak Yeah, I can see the difference. Either he left his gun unattended or he left his gun unattended. One is much more dangerous than the other. Of course, it could have been worse, he could have left it unattended. When I read the OP I thought "even the most ardent gun enthusiast couldn't excuse the criminal negligence of this bozo" I was wrong.
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19th January 2013, 09:13 PM	#113
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,222	What I learned; Car keys and loaded (well not in this case) weapons are just as dangerous.
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19th January 2013, 09:23 PM	#114
KoihimeNakamura Creativity Murderer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Graham, WA Posts: 6,868	Re: School Guard leaves gun in Student Bathroom .... man, the straw in this thread.
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19th January 2013, 10:04 PM	#115
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,638	Originally Posted by Magyar Yup and this guy an ex sherif and the guy who trains others how to behave with guns is the poster child for responsible gun ownership. ... Once a long time ago I was in a store, a KMart or something. There was a guy at the gun counter with a new bullet wound to the hand. He had been looking at a gun for sale and accidentally shot himself. He apologized for his mistake and said he was a cop and should have known better.
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