[Moderated] Why I have a tough time talking to believers.

Gawdzilla · 23rd January 2013, 11:38 AM

Let's take an intelligent person, A. Conan Doyle, and let's make him believe in something silly, say the Cottingly Fairies. Now he wants to tell you that they're real and they're the greatest thing on the planet.

This is how I look at believers. There's not significant difference for me between the Cottingly Fairies and Jehovah.

JoeBentley · 23rd January 2013, 11:40 AM

Often times skeptics and rationalist will be accused of simply dismissing religious believers as stupid.

No. In fact I wish it was that simple. If I could just go "Well you're an idiot" and go about my day, it would actually be a lot easier for me.

What gets me, what really just makes my brain hurt is trying to figure out the disconnect, how demonstratably not crazy people can say crazy things.

Penn Jillette had a great "Big Think" talk about this where at times its like religious people are speaking in a code that they didn't give us the Rosetta Stone for.

Irony · 23rd January 2013, 11:42 AM

I'm pretty much with you there. One thing that helps though is that, using the fairy analogy, this person has been raised not only to believe in fairies, but with some extremely harsh punishments in store for them should they question fairies.

If they didn't believe in fairies, they would be ostracized from their families, called immoral by their community, and (they are led to believe) tortured for all of eternity.

Gawdzilla · 23rd January 2013, 11:48 AM

Arthur Conan Doyle did indeed believe the Cottingly Fairies were real, and went to great lengths to prove it. Looking at the pictures today you'd say "First day with photoshop?"

GIBHOR · 23rd January 2013, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Let's take an intelligent person, A. Conan Doyle, and let's make him believe in something silly, say the Cottingly Fairies. Now he wants to tell you that they're real and they're the greatest thing on the planet.

This is how I look at believers. There's not significant difference for me between the Cottingly Fairies and Jehovah.

What do you have on hand, to convince me, the natural world is all there is ? once you accomplish that, i will deconvert.......

Dog Town · 23rd January 2013, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by JoeBentley

No. In fact I wish it was that simple. If I could just go "Well you're an idiot" and go about my day, it would actually be a lot easier for me.

What gets me, what really just makes my brain hurt is trying to figure out the disconnect, how demonstratably not crazy people can say crazy things.

Same here! Though I have come to see people, brilliant in certain things, be complete morons in other! I call them special, or complex, and depending on the subject still STUPID!.

dafydd · 23rd January 2013, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Let's take an intelligent person, A. Conan Doyle, and let's make him believe in something silly, say the Cottingly Fairies. Now he wants to tell you that they're real and they're the greatest thing on the planet.

This is how I look at believers. There's not significant difference for me between the Cottingly Fairies and Jehovah.

And different religions believe in different races of fairies.

dafydd · 23rd January 2013, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by GIBHOR

What do you have on hand, to convince me, the natural world is all there is ? once you accomplish that, i will deconvert.......

Wrong way round. You claim that a magic invisible being exists. Prove it.

Ron_Tomkins · 23rd January 2013, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Let's take an intelligent person, A. Conan Doyle, and let's make him believe in something silly, say the Cottingly Fairies. Now he wants to tell you that they're real and they're the greatest thing on the planet.

This is how I look at believers. There's not significant difference for me between the Cottingly Fairies and Jehovah.

The only issue I have with your position is that you took all believers and put them into one single Pigeonhole. Not all believers are fundamentalists ignoramuses with whom a serious discussion is impossible. By closing yourself to dialogue with anyone who disagrees with you, you are turning into the very same thing you're fighting against.

Gawdzilla · 23rd January 2013, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by GIBHOR

What do you have on hand, to convince me, the natural world is all there is ? once you accomplish that, i will deconvert.......

As daffyd says, "Whatcha got?"

Irony · 23rd January 2013, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by GIBHOR

What do you have on hand, to convince me, the natural world is all there is ? once you accomplish that, i will deconvert.......

We are under no obligation to disprove all of your fantasies. By all means, go on believing. However, if you want to be taken seriously, then it is your obligation to provide evidence.

Gawdzilla · 23rd January 2013, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

The only issue I have with your position is that you took all believers and put them into one single Pigeonhole. Not all believers are fundamentalists ignoramuses with whom a serious discussion is impossible. By closing yourself to dialogue with anyone who disagrees with you, you are turning into the very same thing you're fighting against.

A. C. Doyle wasn't a fundamentalist ignoramus. You missed the point of the OP there.

MikeG · 23rd January 2013, 11:58 AM

I guess one of the huge cultural differences between Britain and the States is that I can easily say......"I don't have a tough time talking to believers at all"...........because I don't think I ever do. And even if I did, religion is just something that people keep to themselves over here, and would never dream of talking to other people about. It's not taboo, it is just a non-subject. No one is interested, and no-one would waste their time talking about it.

The same doesn't seem to apply to other nonsense. Crystals seems to be the current favourite. Others seem obsessed with horoscopes. In those circumstances, we have a quick conversation about evidence and about being stark raving mad, then move on to talk about the weather, in the normal British way.

Mike

JoeBentley · 23rd January 2013, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by MikeG

I guess one of the huge cultural differences between Britain and the States is that I can easily say......"I don't have a tough time talking to believers at all"...........because I don't think I ever do. And even if I did, religion is just something that people keep to themselves over here, and would never dream of talking to other people about. It's not taboo, it is just a non-subject. no one is interested, and no-one would waste their time talking about it.

I generally really try hard to avoid the "Well you don't understand because you aren't XXXXX" card but... yeah. I think people even in other secular Western democracies that usually have if not an equal at least a parallel for most social quirks that at least let them put it in context... just really don't have anything really comparable to America's "Religious Right" and just really can't get how much influence it has.

Gawdzilla · 23rd January 2013, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by MikeG

I guess one of the huge cultural differences between Britain and the States is that I can easily say......"I don't have a tough time talking to believers at all"...........because I don't think I ever do. And even if I did, religion is just something that people keep to themselves over here, and would never dream of talking to other people about. It's not taboo, it is just a non-subject. no one is interested, and no-one would waste their time talking about it.

The same doesn't seem to apply to other nonsense. Crystals seems to be the current favourite. Others seem obsessed with horoscopes. In those circumstances, we have a quick conversation about evidence and about being stark raving mad, then move on to talk about the weather, in the normal British way.

Mike

I left the subject line generalized for a reason. "believers" in fairies, Nibiru, small/medium/bigfeets, "pyramid power", it's all in the same bucket for me. The fact that the religious folks made a special effort to get religion exempted from the list of delusional behaviors tells me they're aware of the true situation as well.

dafydd · 23rd January 2013, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by MikeG

I guess one of the huge cultural differences between Britain and the States is that I can easily say......"I don't have a tough time talking to believers at all"...........because I don't think I ever do.

Same here in Belgium. I don't know any believers.

godless dave · 23rd January 2013, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by GIBHOR

What do you have on hand, to convince me, the natural world is all there is ? once you accomplish that, i will deconvert.......

There's no evidence that anything besides the natural world exists. So there you go.

Gawdzilla · 23rd January 2013, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Same here in Belgium. I don't know any believers.

No UFOlogists? No "pyramid power"?

No Greens?

AvalonXQ · 23rd January 2013, 12:26 PM

I have no such problems.

dafydd · 23rd January 2013, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

No UFOlogists? No "pyramid power"?

No Greens?

I meant religious believers. I know lots of woos who believe all sorts of nonsense, but none of them believe in sky daddies.

AvalonXQ · 23rd January 2013, 12:33 PM

Actually, having said that, I end up having something of a tough time talking to alt-med woos. My sibling-in-law swears by cider or vinegar tablets. Somebody brings some herbal remedy or homeopathic pills into the house. My parent recommends we feed our two-month-old son goat's milk; somebody even recommended raw milk.

For stuff that affects my son, I'm quite explicit: "AAP.org link or GTFO." For the rest of it, I just try to talk about clinical trials and medical efficacy and leave it alone, but it can be very frustrating.

Ron_Tomkins · 23rd January 2013, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

A. C. Doyle wasn't a fundamentalist ignoramus. You missed the point of the OP there.

And I never said he was. In fact, you took him as an example and created a hypothetical scenario where he believes in something silly and defends it blindly. You then concluded by saying that this is how you look at all believers. My post was in response to that by saying that you should not put all believers in a single pigeonhole, because not all believers are like that.

dafydd · 23rd January 2013, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Actually, having said that, I end up having something of a tough time talking to alt-med woos. My sibling-in-law swears by cider or vinegar tablets. Somebody brings some herbal remedy or homeopathic pills into the house. My parent recommends we feed our two-month-old son goat's milk; somebody even recommended raw milk.

For stuff that affects my son, I'm quite explicit: "AAP.org link or GTFO." For the rest of it, I just try to talk about clinical trials and medical efficacy and leave it alone, but it can be very frustrating.

Now you how atheists feel.

Gawdzilla · 23rd January 2013, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

I meant religious believers. I know lots of woos who believe all sorts of nonsense, but none of them believe in sky daddies.

And as I said, there's no real difference between people who believe in gods and people who believe in fairies or that other nonsense.

Gawdzilla · 23rd January 2013, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

And I never said he was. In fact, you took him as an example and created a hypothetical scenario where he believes in something silly and defends it blindly.

Doyle DID believe in the Cottingly Fairies.

Quote:

You then concluded by saying that this is how you look at all believers. My post was in response to that by saying that you should not put all believers in a single pigeonhole, because not all believers are like that.

Given you didn't understand that OP this part is irrelevant.

Gawdzilla · 23rd January 2013, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Now you how atheists feel.

And that's Jenga.

Ron_Tomkins · 23rd January 2013, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Doyle DID believe in the Cottingly Fairies.

Given you didn't understand that OP this part is irrelevant.

Ok, fine. I was confused then. So Doyle DID believe in the Cottingly Fairies. So what? My argument still stands: You're putting all believers in a PigeonHole, and I'm telling you that not all believers are like that. That is my point. Do you understand now my point? Do you realize that that is what you're doing? Do you realize why it is intellectually dishonest?

Gawdzilla · 23rd January 2013, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Ok, fine. I was confused then. So Doyle DID believe in the Cottingly Fairies. So what? My argument still stands: You're putting all believers in a PigeonHole, and I'm telling you that not all believers are like that. That is my point. Do you understand now my point? Do you realize that that is what you're doing? Do you realize why it is intellectually dishonest?

No, it's not. You'd like it to be, but it's not. Believers vary in what they believe in, but the fairy-fanatics and the god-huggers are the same just below the surface. If this is the first time you've run into this, sorry about that.

Ron_Tomkins · 23rd January 2013, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

No, it's not. You'd like it to be, but it's not. Believers vary in what they believe in, but the fairy-fanatics and the god-huggers are the same just below the surface. If this is the first time you've run into this, sorry about that.

Well, you started the OP by saying that that is how you envision "believers".

Quote:

This is how I look at believers. There's not significant difference for me between the Cottingly Fairies and Jehovah.

You never made a distinction between fairy-fanatics and other types of believers. If you do believe in that distinction, then I take back what I said but you certainly didn't make it clear. From your OP it seemed that you put them all into one single pigeonhole entitled "believers".

Good Lt · 23rd January 2013, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Ok, fine. I was confused then. So Doyle DID believe in the Cottingly Fairies. So what? My argument still stands: You're putting all believers in a PigeonHole, and I'm telling you that not all believers are like that. That is my point. Do you understand now my point? Do you realize that that is what you're doing? Do you realize why it is intellectually dishonest?

To the extent that all believers in deities, fairies, unicorns, etc., by definition BELIEVE in something without evidence for it, the details are inconsequential.

All believers partake in the invisible supernatural ice cream; the differences are merely their preferred flavors and toppings.

Gawdzilla · 23rd January 2013, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Well, you started the OP by saying that that is how you envision "believers".

You never made a distinction between fairy-fanatics and other types of believers. If you do believe in that distinction, then I take back what I said but you certainly didn't make it clear. From your OP it seemed that you put them all into one single pigeonhole entitled "believers".

I don't believe there's a difference between fairy believers and god believers, I've said this more than once in this thread already I do believe. You believe in gods, fairies, pyramid power, Nibiru, all same-same GI.

dafydd · 23rd January 2013, 03:02 PM

There is a woman living around the corner who firmly believes in homeopathy and shuns medical science. In cases of illness she consults a dowser. She has put her children's lives in danger twice. Her husband has just left her, mainly because of these shenanigans. He belief is just as irrational and as potentially harmful as a belief in a god.

Irony · 23rd January 2013, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Ok, fine. I was confused then. So Doyle DID believe in the Cottingly Fairies. So what? My argument still stands: You're putting all believers in a PigeonHole, and I'm telling you that not all believers are like that. That is my point. Do you understand now my point? Do you realize that that is what you're doing? Do you realize why it is intellectually dishonest?

Obviously their are differences in believers. Some are fanatics, some are luke-warm, some are believers in name only. Some are authoritarian, some are not. But the point is that which particular supernatural belief they follow is not one of the important factors.

Gawdzilla · 23rd January 2013, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Irony

Obviously their are differences in believers. Some are fanatics, some are luke-warm, some are believers in name only. Some are authoritarian, some are not. But the point is that which particular supernatural belief they follow is not one of the important factors.

Yep, there's a underlying pathology there that is fundamental to the problem.

dafydd · 23rd January 2013, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Irony

Obviously their are differences in believers. Some are fanatics, some are luke-warm, some are believers in name only. Some are authoritarian, some are not. But the point is that which particular supernatural belief they follow is not one of the important factors.

A good point. Is there a difference between believing in a sky daddy and believing that Reptilians control the world?

Denver · 23rd January 2013, 03:21 PM

I think one of the disconnects non-believers have about believers, is they seem to think that most believers hold their belief in god as always the central point of their belief system. In fact, most believers I know rarely try to defend the existence of god, or even bring up god in conversation. Unless they are challenged about it, or ridiculed about it. This kind of ridicule seems silly to me, when the important thing is not what they believe in so much as what they do because of that belief.

More often than not, it seems to me that believers have a morality system they are trying to act by, much of which is shared by non-believers. It's just that the tradition of where that system comes from, or the history of how that morality was imparted to them, differs.

Some of the most useless conversations are a non-believer trying to prod a believer about why their beliefs are silly. A more constructive conversation would be finding common ground, such as what you both do NOT believe in, such as psychics, or medical woo, and find a way to cooperate on protecting consumers from those elements.

dafydd · 23rd January 2013, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Denver

A more constructive conversation would be finding common ground, such as what you both do NOT believe in, such as psychics, or medical woo, and find a way to cooperate on protecting consumers from those elements.

A very good idea. I'm willing to give it a go. Theists And Atheists United Against Woo......except for a bit of the woo.

Gawdzilla · 23rd January 2013, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Denver

I think one of the disconnects non-believers have about believers, is they seem to think that most believers hold their belief in god as always the central point of their belief system. In fact, most believers I know rarely try to defend the existence of god, or even bring up god in conversation. Unless they are challenged about it, or ridiculed about it. This kind of ridicule seems silly to me, when the important thing is not what they believe in so much as what they do because of that belief.

More often than not, it seems to me that believers have a morality system they are trying to act by, much of which is shared by non-believers. It's just that the tradition of where that system comes from, or the history of how that morality was imparted to them, differs.

Some of the most useless conversations are a non-believer trying to prod a believer about why their beliefs are silly. A more constructive conversation would be finding common ground, such as what you both do NOT believe in, such as psychics, or medical woo, and find a way to cooperate on protecting consumers from those elements.

You have fun with that.

Denver · 23rd January 2013, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

You have fun with that.

Actually, it can be fun to work with people of different belief systems, and even be friends with them, and respect their intelligence and their history and their family and societal differences. It's less fun, at least to me, to see them as silly, because of those.

John Jones · 23rd January 2013, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by GIBHOR

What do you have on hand, to convince me, the natural world is all there is ? once you accomplish that, i will deconvert.......

Skepticism, critical thinking skills, the scientific discipline, and a lack of empirical evidence pointing elsewhere.

I'm predicting that's not enough.

23rd January 2013, 11:38 AM	#1
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,485	Why I have a tough time talking to believers. Let's take an intelligent person, A. Conan Doyle, and let's make him believe in something silly, say the Cottingly Fairies. Now he wants to tell you that they're real and they're the greatest thing on the planet. This is how I look at believers. There's not significant difference for me between the Cottingly Fairies and Jehovah.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

23rd January 2013, 11:40 AM	#2
JoeBentley Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 1,764	Often times skeptics and rationalist will be accused of simply dismissing religious believers as stupid. No. In fact I wish it was that simple. If I could just go "Well you're an idiot" and go about my day, it would actually be a lot easier for me. What gets me, what really just makes my brain hurt is trying to figure out the disconnect, how demonstratably not crazy people can say crazy things. Penn Jillette had a great "Big Think" talk about this where at times its like religious people are speaking in a code that they didn't give us the Rosetta Stone for.
	__________________ - Opinions require evidence and no before you ask defining something as "Something doesn't require evidence" doesn't count. - In extreme cases continuing to be wrong when you've been repeatedly proven to be wrong is a form of rudeness. - Major in philosophy. That way you can also ask people "why" they would like fries would that.

23rd January 2013, 11:42 AM	#3
Irony Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 872	I'm pretty much with you there. One thing that helps though is that, using the fairy analogy, this person has been raised not only to believe in fairies, but with some extremely harsh punishments in store for them should they question fairies. If they didn't believe in fairies, they would be ostracized from their families, called immoral by their community, and (they are led to believe) tortured for all of eternity.
Irony Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 872

23rd January 2013, 11:48 AM	#4
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,485	Arthur Conan Doyle did indeed believe the Cottingly Fairies were real, and went to great lengths to prove it. Looking at the pictures today you'd say "First day with photoshop?"
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

23rd January 2013, 11:52 AM	#5
GIBHOR Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,978	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Let's take an intelligent person, A. Conan Doyle, and let's make him believe in something silly, say the Cottingly Fairies. Now he wants to tell you that they're real and they're the greatest thing on the planet. This is how I look at believers. There's not significant difference for me between the Cottingly Fairies and Jehovah. What do you have on hand, to convince me, the natural world is all there is ? once you accomplish that, i will deconvert.......
GIBHOR Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,978

23rd January 2013, 11:52 AM	#6
Dog Town Space for Rent Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sunny blue sky, cold water. Posts: 4,462	Originally Posted by JoeBentley No. In fact I wish it was that simple. If I could just go "Well you're an idiot" and go about my day, it would actually be a lot easier for me. What gets me, what really just makes my brain hurt is trying to figure out the disconnect, how demonstratably not crazy people can say crazy things. Same here! Though I have come to see people, brilliant in certain things, be complete morons in other! I call them special, or complex, and depending on the subject still STUPID!.
	__________________ "Yes. I often wonder why it is that the nutjobs, who clearly think they're among a tiny handful of people who "get it", are wholly incapable of communicating effectively enough so that other people can understand them and "get it", too." Gee Mack, JREF 5/15/09

23rd January 2013, 11:53 AM	#7
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Let's take an intelligent person, A. Conan Doyle, and let's make him believe in something silly, say the Cottingly Fairies. Now he wants to tell you that they're real and they're the greatest thing on the planet. This is how I look at believers. There's not significant difference for me between the Cottingly Fairies and Jehovah. And different religions believe in different races of fairies.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

23rd January 2013, 11:54 AM	#8
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	Originally Posted by GIBHOR What do you have on hand, to convince me, the natural world is all there is ? once you accomplish that, i will deconvert....... Wrong way round. You claim that a magic invisible being exists. Prove it.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

23rd January 2013, 11:56 AM	#9
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 32,027	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Let's take an intelligent person, A. Conan Doyle, and let's make him believe in something silly, say the Cottingly Fairies. Now he wants to tell you that they're real and they're the greatest thing on the planet. This is how I look at believers. There's not significant difference for me between the Cottingly Fairies and Jehovah. The only issue I have with your position is that you took all believers and put them into one single Pigeonhole. Not all believers are fundamentalists ignoramuses with whom a serious discussion is impossible. By closing yourself to dialogue with anyone who disagrees with you, you are turning into the very same thing you're fighting against.
	__________________ "I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan

23rd January 2013, 11:57 AM	#10
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,485	Originally Posted by GIBHOR What do you have on hand, to convince me, the natural world is all there is ? once you accomplish that, i will deconvert....... As daffyd says, "Whatcha got?"
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

23rd January 2013, 11:58 AM	#11
Irony Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 872	Originally Posted by GIBHOR What do you have on hand, to convince me, the natural world is all there is ? once you accomplish that, i will deconvert....... We are under no obligation to disprove all of your fantasies. By all means, go on believing. However, if you want to be taken seriously, then it is your obligation to provide evidence.
Irony Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 872

23rd January 2013, 11:58 AM	#12
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,485	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins The only issue I have with your position is that you took all believers and put them into one single Pigeonhole. Not all believers are fundamentalists ignoramuses with whom a serious discussion is impossible. By closing yourself to dialogue with anyone who disagrees with you, you are turning into the very same thing you're fighting against. A. C. Doyle wasn't a fundamentalist ignoramus. You missed the point of the OP there.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

23rd January 2013, 11:58 AM	#13
MikeG Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: UK Posts: 1,558	I guess one of the huge cultural differences between Britain and the States is that I can easily say......"I don't have a tough time talking to believers at all"...........because I don't think I ever do. And even if I did, religion is just something that people keep to themselves over here, and would never dream of talking to other people about. It's not taboo, it is just a non-subject. No one is interested, and no-one would waste their time talking about it. The same doesn't seem to apply to other nonsense. Crystals seems to be the current favourite. Others seem obsessed with horoscopes. In those circumstances, we have a quick conversation about evidence and about being stark raving mad, then move on to talk about the weather, in the normal British way. Mike
	Last edited by MikeG; 23rd January 2013 at 12:46 PM.

23rd January 2013, 12:08 PM	#14
JoeBentley Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 1,764	Originally Posted by MikeG I guess one of the huge cultural differences between Britain and the States is that I can easily say......"I don't have a tough time talking to believers at all"...........because I don't think I ever do. And even if I did, religion is just something that people keep to themselves over here, and would never dream of talking to other people about. It's not taboo, it is just a non-subject. no one is interested, and no-one would waste their time talking about it. I generally really try hard to avoid the "Well you don't understand because you aren't XXXXX" card but... yeah. I think people even in other secular Western democracies that usually have if not an equal at least a parallel for most social quirks that at least let them put it in context... just really don't have anything really comparable to America's "Religious Right" and just really can't get how much influence it has.
	__________________ - Opinions require evidence and no before you ask defining something as "Something doesn't require evidence" doesn't count. - In extreme cases continuing to be wrong when you've been repeatedly proven to be wrong is a form of rudeness. - Major in philosophy. That way you can also ask people "why" they would like fries would that.

23rd January 2013, 12:11 PM	#16
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	Originally Posted by MikeG I guess one of the huge cultural differences between Britain and the States is that I can easily say......"I don't have a tough time talking to believers at all"...........because I don't think I ever do. Same here in Belgium. I don't know any believers.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

23rd January 2013, 12:12 PM	#17
godless dave Great Dalmuti Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,130	Originally Posted by GIBHOR What do you have on hand, to convince me, the natural world is all there is ? once you accomplish that, i will deconvert....... There's no evidence that anything besides the natural world exists. So there you go.
	__________________ "If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm

23rd January 2013, 12:18 PM	#18
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,485	Originally Posted by dafydd Same here in Belgium. I don't know any believers. No UFOlogists? No "pyramid power"? No Greens?
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

23rd January 2013, 12:26 PM	#19
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	I have no such problems.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

23rd January 2013, 12:28 PM	#20
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla No UFOlogists? No "pyramid power"? No Greens? I meant religious believers. I know lots of woos who believe all sorts of nonsense, but none of them believe in sky daddies.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

23rd January 2013, 12:33 PM	#21
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Actually, having said that, I end up having something of a tough time talking to alt-med woos. My sibling-in-law swears by cider or vinegar tablets. Somebody brings some herbal remedy or homeopathic pills into the house. My parent recommends we feed our two-month-old son goat's milk; somebody even recommended raw milk. For stuff that affects my son, I'm quite explicit: "AAP.org link or GTFO." For the rest of it, I just try to talk about clinical trials and medical efficacy and leave it alone, but it can be very frustrating.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

23rd January 2013, 12:41 PM	#22
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 32,027	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla A. C. Doyle wasn't a fundamentalist ignoramus. You missed the point of the OP there. And I never said he was. In fact, you took him as an example and created a hypothetical scenario where he believes in something silly and defends it blindly. You then concluded by saying that this is how you look at all believers. My post was in response to that by saying that you should not put all believers in a single pigeonhole, because not all believers are like that.
	__________________ "I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan Last edited by Ron_Tomkins; 23rd January 2013 at 12:42 PM.

23rd January 2013, 12:41 PM	#23
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Actually, having said that, I end up having something of a tough time talking to alt-med woos. My sibling-in-law swears by cider or vinegar tablets. Somebody brings some herbal remedy or homeopathic pills into the house. My parent recommends we feed our two-month-old son goat's milk; somebody even recommended raw milk. For stuff that affects my son, I'm quite explicit: "AAP.org link or GTFO." For the rest of it, I just try to talk about clinical trials and medical efficacy and leave it alone, but it can be very frustrating. Now you how atheists feel.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

23rd January 2013, 01:00 PM	#24
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,485	Originally Posted by dafydd I meant religious believers. I know lots of woos who believe all sorts of nonsense, but none of them believe in sky daddies. And as I said, there's no real difference between people who believe in gods and people who believe in fairies or that other nonsense.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

23rd January 2013, 01:01 PM	#25
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,485	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins And I never said he was. In fact, you took him as an example and created a hypothetical scenario where he believes in something silly and defends it blindly. Doyle DID believe in the Cottingly Fairies. Quote: You then concluded by saying that this is how you look at all believers. My post was in response to that by saying that you should not put all believers in a single pigeonhole, because not all believers are like that. Given you didn't understand that OP this part is irrelevant.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

23rd January 2013, 01:02 PM	#26
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,485	Originally Posted by dafydd Now you how atheists feel. And that's Jenga.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

23rd January 2013, 01:09 PM	#27
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 32,027	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Doyle DID believe in the Cottingly Fairies. Given you didn't understand that OP this part is irrelevant. Ok, fine. I was confused then. So Doyle DID believe in the Cottingly Fairies. So what? My argument still stands: You're putting all believers in a PigeonHole, and I'm telling you that not all believers are like that. That is my point. Do you understand now my point? Do you realize that that is what you're doing? Do you realize why it is intellectually dishonest?
	__________________ "I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan

23rd January 2013, 01:30 PM	#28
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,485	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins Ok, fine. I was confused then. So Doyle DID believe in the Cottingly Fairies. So what? My argument still stands: You're putting all believers in a PigeonHole, and I'm telling you that not all believers are like that. That is my point. Do you understand now my point? Do you realize that that is what you're doing? Do you realize why it is intellectually dishonest? No, it's not. You'd like it to be, but it's not. Believers vary in what they believe in, but the fairy-fanatics and the god-huggers are the same just below the surface. If this is the first time you've run into this, sorry about that.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

23rd January 2013, 01:38 PM	#29
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 32,027	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla No, it's not. You'd like it to be, but it's not. Believers vary in what they believe in, but the fairy-fanatics and the god-huggers are the same just below the surface. If this is the first time you've run into this, sorry about that. Well, you started the OP by saying that that is how you envision "believers". Quote: This is how I look at believers. There's not significant difference for me between the Cottingly Fairies and Jehovah. You never made a distinction between fairy-fanatics and other types of believers. If you do believe in that distinction, then I take back what I said but you certainly didn't make it clear. From your OP it seemed that you put them all into one single pigeonhole entitled "believers".
	__________________ "I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan

23rd January 2013, 01:39 PM	#30
Good Lt Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Satellite of Love Posts: 1,487	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins Ok, fine. I was confused then. So Doyle DID believe in the Cottingly Fairies. So what? My argument still stands: You're putting all believers in a PigeonHole, and I'm telling you that not all believers are like that. That is my point. Do you understand now my point? Do you realize that that is what you're doing? Do you realize why it is intellectually dishonest? To the extent that all believers in deities, fairies, unicorns, etc., by definition BELIEVE in something without evidence for it, the details are inconsequential. All believers partake in the invisible supernatural ice cream; the differences are merely their preferred flavors and toppings.
	__________________ Sorrowful and great is the artist's destiny. - Liszt Certainly, in the topsy-turvy world of heavy rock, having a good solid piece of wood in your hand is often useful. - Ian Faith

23rd January 2013, 01:44 PM	#31
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,485	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins Well, you started the OP by saying that that is how you envision "believers". You never made a distinction between fairy-fanatics and other types of believers. If you do believe in that distinction, then I take back what I said but you certainly didn't make it clear. From your OP it seemed that you put them all into one single pigeonhole entitled "believers". I don't believe there's a difference between fairy believers and god believers, I've said this more than once in this thread already I do believe. You believe in gods, fairies, pyramid power, Nibiru, all same-same GI.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

23rd January 2013, 03:02 PM	#32
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	There is a woman living around the corner who firmly believes in homeopathy and shuns medical science. In cases of illness she consults a dowser. She has put her children's lives in danger twice. Her husband has just left her, mainly because of these shenanigans. He belief is just as irrational and as potentially harmful as a belief in a god.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

23rd January 2013, 03:10 PM	#33
Irony Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 872	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins Ok, fine. I was confused then. So Doyle DID believe in the Cottingly Fairies. So what? My argument still stands: You're putting all believers in a PigeonHole, and I'm telling you that not all believers are like that. That is my point. Do you understand now my point? Do you realize that that is what you're doing? Do you realize why it is intellectually dishonest? Obviously their are differences in believers. Some are fanatics, some are luke-warm, some are believers in name only. Some are authoritarian, some are not. But the point is that which particular supernatural belief they follow is not one of the important factors.
Irony Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 872

23rd January 2013, 03:12 PM	#34
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,485	Originally Posted by Irony Obviously their are differences in believers. Some are fanatics, some are luke-warm, some are believers in name only. Some are authoritarian, some are not. But the point is that which particular supernatural belief they follow is not one of the important factors. Yep, there's a underlying pathology there that is fundamental to the problem.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

23rd January 2013, 03:14 PM	#35
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	Originally Posted by Irony Obviously their are differences in believers. Some are fanatics, some are luke-warm, some are believers in name only. Some are authoritarian, some are not. But the point is that which particular supernatural belief they follow is not one of the important factors. A good point. Is there a difference between believing in a sky daddy and believing that Reptilians control the world?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

23rd January 2013, 03:21 PM	#36
Denver Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 6,601	I think one of the disconnects non-believers have about believers, is they seem to think that most believers hold their belief in god as always the central point of their belief system. In fact, most believers I know rarely try to defend the existence of god, or even bring up god in conversation. Unless they are challenged about it, or ridiculed about it. This kind of ridicule seems silly to me, when the important thing is not what they believe in so much as what they do because of that belief. More often than not, it seems to me that believers have a morality system they are trying to act by, much of which is shared by non-believers. It's just that the tradition of where that system comes from, or the history of how that morality was imparted to them, differs. Some of the most useless conversations are a non-believer trying to prod a believer about why their beliefs are silly. A more constructive conversation would be finding common ground, such as what you both do NOT believe in, such as psychics, or medical woo, and find a way to cooperate on protecting consumers from those elements.
	__________________ Dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions -- Invader Zim Last edited by Denver; 23rd January 2013 at 03:22 PM.