JREF Homepage Swift Blog Events Calendar $1 Million Paranormal Challenge The Amaz!ng Meeting Useful Links Support Us
James Randi Educational Foundation JREF Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   JREF Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
Click Here To Donate

Notices


Welcome to the JREF Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.

Reply
Old 28th January 2013, 08:12 AM   #361
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 31,826
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
THEY DID they did it several times. It's quite simple they did.


If a human being can evolve to become a creature that can now create AI and computers and do all sorts of very intelligent things, why is it so hard to believe that another creature could have evolved with same capability and have "created" human life?

You asked for evidence of a creature evolving to be a creator. They gave you one. HUMANS. Then you dragged in this crap about it not being immortal when they NEVER SAID THAT.


YOU said it.

You and Gawdzilla are the ones making positive statements and then pretending the believer is the one that did it.


It's really mindblowing to see this.
Humans become able to create other universes?
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:13 AM   #362
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,487
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
You're both wrong here, although not equally wrong.

Science does not prove ideas, only disprove them. It does, however, require proof of the things used to disprove the ideas. Otherwise those things are just anecdotes. "I had an elevated experience where Baby Jesus spoke to me" cannot disprove squat, because you can't prove it happened.

This means that, yes, we don't know FOR SURE whether the Big Bang theory is correct. In fact it's almost certainly wrong in some of the particulars. What we can say is that it is the least wrong thing we've found so far, having gone through a fairly large battery of proven things that failed to disprove it.

Likewise, "goddidit" is also almost certainly wrong, although not disproven. What has been disproven, with the aid of proven things, is the involvement of every specific god that has been put forth as the one that did it. This leaves the theory as a sort of vague and unfalsifiable shrug, requiring nothing, explaining nothing, good for nothing.

Both of these theories are wrong. But as Asimov said, if you think they're just as wrong, you're wronger than both of them together. It speaks to a fundamental dissonance in your scientific understanding. Even if you can go through the motions of science, you have clearly lost sight of why you're doing it.

That's hair splitting. I have simply said that just because a theory seems BETTER than another theory it doesn't mean it is true. This statement is a fact.


Can you also understand why it is wrong to juxtapose science with God theories? This is a pet peeve of mine as well.

When someone says "Well it's better than Goddit" to me it is the height of stupidity, lazy thinking etc.


A theory that is good will rely on it's own merits, NOT that it's just better than the other idea.



I'll go find my example of the Tiramisu theory I have on this. I've noticed this for years. Years and years and it drives me up the damn wall.

LOL
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:13 AM   #363
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: On the Flanders/Nederland border.
Posts: 35,445
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
I do not know Punssh's gender, so I generally use THEY as a sign of respect until I know the gender. Do you know the gender? You said I was a GUY and I'm a woman. It's rude IMO.

I have read the thread. YOU HAVE NOT or if you have then you really don't understand what is being said.
I understand perfectly well that punsssh stated that he had evidence but refuses to provide it. Why are you arguing about this, it's in black and white for all to see. I did not know that you are a woman, my psychic powers are on the wane today.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:15 AM   #364
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: On the Flanders/Nederland border.
Posts: 35,445
Originally Posted by truethat View Post

When someone says "Well it's better than Goddit" to me it is the height of stupidity, lazy thinking etc.

No, it's reality. Gods are human inventions. Any non-fantasy explanation is better than goddidit.

Last edited by dafydd; 28th January 2013 at 08:16 AM.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:21 AM   #365
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,487
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
No, it's reality. Gods are human inventions. Any non-fantasy explanation is better than goddidit.
Better than doesn't mean it's true.


It's like saying "how did big bang happen?" Well Johnny thinks a magical floating space enigma crashed into it and started a chain reaction. Billy thinks that it was a side effect of a supernova in another universe. And since that one sounds smarter and like a better answer I'm going to go with that one.

Look at me everyone, see how smart I am!


Un no, you look like an idiot who is so desperate to have an answer they'll go with something even if they don't know if it's true.


To say one idea is better is NOT the same thing as saying this makes it true.


Here's my tiramisu example

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...24#post4543224
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury

Last edited by truethat; 28th January 2013 at 08:27 AM.
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:22 AM   #366
Pup
Illuminator
 
Pup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,531
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Then prove that Big Bang is the origin of the Universe. If you can't then why do you "believe it."

And saying "well it's better than the God answer" is like saying you believe that Batman invented the universe because you like that answer better. Just because you like it better doesn't make it true.

It's a theory, one that has had major changes and adjustments over time. You know....like how "science works."
Not sure which side of the argument this will put me on, but...

I believe that the scientific method is the best way of learning about the world, because it seems to work best. But that means, by definition, that I don't "believe" in anything else--and don't have to.

So yeah, I cringe when people talk about "believing" in the Big Bang as if it's the opposite of "believing" God created the universe, because I certainly hope that those who want to follow the scientific method aren't expected to "believe" in the Big Bang or anything else with the same kind of blind fervency that believers apply to God.

Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Not it isn't. Making up answers to questions you can't answer with your "best guess" is not science. It's someone who can't handle the fact that we don't know the answer and for some reason needs to fill in that blank so they force an answer to be the answer even if they can't prove that it's true.

Some people do that with God.

Some people do that with Big Bang. It's the same damn thing.
Depends how strongly one believes in those answers. Making up answers is basic to science: it's proposing hypotheses. Believing those answers are the correct ones without evidence, and clinging to that belief despite evidence to the contrary, is what separates religion from the scientific method.

So on the one hand, I'm for making up tentative answers--and then testing them. On the other hand, I'm against making up answers and presenting them as final truth that everyone must believe in, because that's not how science works.

Quote:
The answer is WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE AND WE NEVER WILL.
I agree that we know different things with varying degrees of certainty, but how do you know we never will know any particular thing? It's a hypothesis, but do you have evidence?
Pup is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:23 AM   #367
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,487
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
I understand perfectly well that punsssh stated that he had evidence but refuses to provide it. Why are you arguing about this, it's in black and white for all to see. I did not know that you are a woman, my psychic powers are on the wane today.
Exactly. IT IS In black and white. They DID give you the evidence to back up their statement. You just keep saying they stated something they never said. Go back and read it. Punssh never said anything about God definitely existing. They said it was a possibility.
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:26 AM   #368
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,487
Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Not sure which side of the argument this will put me on, but...

I believe that the scientific method is the best way of learning about the world, because it seems to work best. But that means, by definition, that I don't "believe" in anything else--and don't have to.

So yeah, I cringe when people talk about "believing" in the Big Bang as if it's the opposite of "believing" God created the universe, because I certainly hope that those who want to follow the scientific method aren't expected to "believe" in the Big Bang or anything else with the same kind of blind fervency that believers apply to God.



Depends how strongly one believes in those answers. Making up answers is basic to science: it's proposing hypotheses. Believing those answers are the correct ones without evidence, and clinging to that belief despite evidence to the contrary, is what separates religion from the scientific method.

So on the one hand, I'm for making up tentative answers--and then testing them. On the other hand, I'm against making up answers and presenting them as final truth that everyone must believe in, because that's not how science works.



I agree that we know different things with varying degrees of certainty, but how do you know we never will know any particular thing? It's a hypothesis, but do you have evidence?

Great post. I do not feel it is possible to know the origins unless we can find a way to go back in time. Even then we wouldn't know if the act of doing so changed the way it unfolded.

It will always just be a theory, a scientific theory and I assume we will over time get more evidence.


The sad part about people who "believe in Big Bang" and "believe in Evolution" is that very sadly, they do cling to it with the same kind of irrational fervency that religious believers do.


It's absolutely mindblowing to watch because they think they are so much "better' than the stupid believer when they are doing the exact same thing.
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:32 AM   #369
Beelzebuddy
Master Poster
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,160
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
That's hair splitting. I have simply said that just because a theory seems BETTER than another theory it doesn't mean it is true. This statement is a fact.


Can you also understand why it is wrong to juxtapose science with God theories? This is a pet peeve of mine as well.

When someone says "Well it's better than Goddit" to me it is the height of stupidity, lazy thinking etc.


A theory that is good will rely on it's own merits, NOT that it's just better than the other idea.



I'll go find my example of the Tiramisu theory I have on this. I've noticed this for years. Years and years and it drives me up the damn wall.

LOL
You're right, a theory should not be discounted merely because another seems better. Honestly, I should have insisted the God hypothesis be tossed out on its own lack of merit. A theory that has been pared down to the point where it says nothing that can be tested is not even worth comparing to one that can be falsified.

That's why the answer to "what came before the Big Bang?" is not "well golly, we don't know, let's make some crap up," but instead "no way of telling, so who gives a damn."

Last edited by Beelzebuddy; 28th January 2013 at 08:35 AM.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:34 AM   #370
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,487
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
You're right, a theory should not be discounted merely because another seems better. Honestly, I should have insisted the God hypothesis be tossed out on its own lack of merit. A theory that has been pared down to the point where it says nothing else that can be disproven is not even worth comparing to one that can be falsified.

That's why the answer to "what came before the Big Bang?" is not "well golly, we don't know, let's make some crap up," but instead "no way of telling, so who gives a damn."
Exactly.
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:37 AM   #371
Beelzebuddy
Master Poster
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,160
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Exactly.
You may need to reread that. I'm not being any kinder to the creator idea.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:40 AM   #372
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details...
Posts: 34,868
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
You don't. But to say that you believe in Big Bang as the answer to "how did this all get here" is such a ridiculous leap of faith statement to make when you are nailing someone to the wall for believing in something "without proof."
Yeah, like people who believe in gravity. Ridiculous.
__________________
The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.

"Scientists have a poor understanding of science." - Justintime
Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:43 AM   #373
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: On the Flanders/Nederland border.
Posts: 35,445
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Better than doesn't mean it's true.
Anything is better than goddidit. You may as well say that fairies did it. The purpose of scientific inquiry is to test the truth of a hypothesis, to discover the truth.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:43 AM   #374
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details...
Posts: 34,868
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
HEL........................LO?
You know, coming from the gal who said this:

Quote:
Why people think that others are interested in their justification for treating people like garbage and being an arrogant jerk is beyond me.
It's kinda funny to see you act that very same way.

Quote:
Do you realize how many times you've started a thread telling believers they are stupid for not believing what you believe?
I don't think he's ever said people are stupid for having different opinions. Just wrong ones.
__________________
The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.

"Scientists have a poor understanding of science." - Justintime
Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:45 AM   #375
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details...
Posts: 34,868
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Prove it.
Seeing as we can still observe it happening today, I'd say it's really easy to prove.
__________________
The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.

"Scientists have a poor understanding of science." - Justintime
Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:46 AM   #376
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: On the Flanders/Nederland border.
Posts: 35,445
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Exactly.
You may want to read that post again.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:47 AM   #377
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: On the Flanders/Nederland border.
Posts: 35,445
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post



It's kinda funny to see you act that very same way.


Why is asking for evidence being arrogant? I don't get it.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:49 AM   #378
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details...
Posts: 34,868
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
You can call it whatever you want but you know I am correct.
"You say you're an atheist but deep down you believe."
__________________
The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.

"Scientists have a poor understanding of science." - Justintime
Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:49 AM   #379
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: On the Flanders/Nederland border.
Posts: 35,445
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
The sad part about people who "believe in Big Bang" and "believe in Evolution" is that very sadly, they do cling to it with the same kind of irrational fervency that religious believers do.

No. I have seen evidence that supports the Big Bang but never a shred for the existence of a god. Are you a Steady State believer?

Last edited by dafydd; 28th January 2013 at 08:50 AM.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:50 AM   #380
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details...
Posts: 34,868
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Why is asking for evidence being arrogant? I don't get it.
You're refering to my post or truethat's ?
__________________
The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.

"Scientists have a poor understanding of science." - Justintime
Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:52 AM   #381
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: On the Flanders/Nederland border.
Posts: 35,445
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're refering to my post or truethat's ?
truethat's. Sorry for the confusion.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:52 AM   #382
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details...
Posts: 34,868
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
You can accept the theory, but to state it's TRUE is ridiculous and no scientist worth his salt would ever say that it is.
Would a true scottsman say it ?

You're basically arguing via semantics. We know thet big bang occured, although we don't have the specifics. Unlike religious beliefs, it's open to inquiry and revision, so "this is true" is really shorthand for "it's the best explanation we have yet and it's a lot more likely than the known alternatives." What's wrong with that ?
__________________
The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.

"Scientists have a poor understanding of science." - Justintime
Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:53 AM   #383
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: On the Flanders/Nederland border.
Posts: 35,445
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Would a true scottsman say it ?

You're basically arguing via semantics. We know thet big bang occured, although we don't have the specifics. Unlike religious beliefs, it's open to inquiry and revision, so "this is true" is really shorthand for "it's the best explanation we have yet and it's a lot more likely than the known alternatives." What's wrong with that ?
I would like to know that too.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:54 AM   #384
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
 
Paulhoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: South Florida
Posts: 12,597
With the Big-Bang theory (a term made by Fred Hoyle, who didn't believe in it) with it one can make predictions on how the universe should look and behave.

God on the other hand makes no predictions but seems to give some the right to know what they don't know and the right to tell you how to live.


They love to say that a god gives them objective laws, when in fact they are subjectively changing those laws all the time to what they themselves believe and/or want those laws to be.

Paul


__________________
For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST"
Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given
Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous
A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge
Science doesn’t know everything, but religion doesn’t know anything
Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing
Paulhoff is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:54 AM   #385
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details...
Posts: 34,868
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
THAT is what you chose to comment on? Oh pahleeeeze, even you can come up with something better than that.
Translation: "Damn ! He caught me. Better deflect the question."
__________________
The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.

"Scientists have a poor understanding of science." - Justintime
Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:55 AM   #386
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: On the Flanders/Nederland border.
Posts: 35,445
Please be clear, truethat. Are you saying that the Big Bang did not occur?
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:56 AM   #387
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details...
Posts: 34,868
Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Humans become able to create other universes?
Well, on paper anyway.
__________________
The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.

"Scientists have a poor understanding of science." - Justintime
Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 08:57 AM   #388
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details...
Posts: 34,868
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
That's hair splitting.
__________________
The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.

"Scientists have a poor understanding of science." - Justintime
Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 09:00 AM   #389
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details...
Posts: 34,868
Originally Posted by Paulhoff View Post
With the Big-Bang theory (a term made by Fred Hoyle, who didn't believe in it) with it one can make predictions on how the universe should look and behave.

God on the other hand makes no predictions but seems to give some the right to know what they don't know and the right to tell you how to live.


They love to say that a god gives them objective laws, when in fact they are subjectively changing those laws all the time to what they themselves believe and/or want those laws to be.
Their "beliefs" are an excuse to justify their own choices, opinions and way of life.
__________________
The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.

"Scientists have a poor understanding of science." - Justintime
Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 09:05 AM   #390
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,487
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Anything is better than goddidit. You may as well say that fairies did it. The purpose of scientific inquiry is to test the truth of a hypothesis, to discover the truth.
Exactly so why are you talking about God? God has nothing to do with Big Bang. Anyway I can see where this thread is going. You want to keep debating the obvious. LOL Have fun. I'm done.
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 09:06 AM   #391
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,487
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
You may need to reread that. I'm not being any kinder to the creator idea.
Neither am I so what's the problem?
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 09:07 AM   #392
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,487
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Please be clear, truethat. Are you saying that the Big Bang did not occur?
Nope. The fact that you are asking this goes right on back to the "binary opposition" logical fail that always happens on here. We must either be FOR something or AGAINST it. If we examine it critically it means we are AGAINST IT.

I'm not even bothering again. Seriously done and out.
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 09:09 AM   #393
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Tennessee. Ain't you jealous?
Posts: 5,457
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, like people who believe in gravity. Ridiculous.
Or people who functionally reject stork theory in favor of the theory of sexual reproduction.

Zealots!
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 09:10 AM   #394
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details...
Posts: 34,868
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Nope. The fact that you are asking this goes right on back to the "binary opposition" logical fail that always happens on here. We must either be FOR something or AGAINST it. If we examine it critically it means we are AGAINST IT.

I'm not even bothering again. Seriously done and out.
Analysis - Argument
Effects: Minimal
Opposition: Overwhelming
Action: Retreat
__________________
The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.

"Scientists have a poor understanding of science." - Justintime
Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 09:15 AM   #395
Pup
Illuminator
 
Pup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,531
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Unlike religious beliefs, it's open to inquiry and revision, so "this is true" is really shorthand for "it's the best explanation we have yet and it's a lot more likely than the known alternatives." What's wrong with that ?
That's it, exactly. The problem is that you know that, and I know that, but it's hard to tell sometimes what exact sense of "this is true" people mean, because other people sometimes use the same shorthand to mean "this is true and I will cling to my belief that it's true even in the face of any possible evidence to the contrary that you could imagine."
Pup is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 09:15 AM   #396
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,487
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Would a true scottsman say it ?

You're basically arguing via semantics. We know thet big bang occured, although we don't have the specifics. Unlike religious beliefs, it's open to inquiry and revision, so "this is true" is really shorthand for "it's the best explanation we have yet and it's a lot more likely than the known alternatives." What's wrong with that ?
Read the tiramisu example. Just because it was " lot more likely" doesn't mean it's the right answer.


Again story of this chick working in a restaurant with me and pulling off the cover on the tiramisu without tamping it down and peeled off the top layer of coating.

This girl who I thought was a complete idiot went to the kitchen and got ground espresso and sprinkled it across the top. I went off on her for being wrong. It was so stupid, we had to peel it back off and why in the world would she ever think that it was espresso? She'd eaten it before hadn't she?

I insisted that it was supposed to be cinnamon. Obviously? We're going back and forth in the kitchen and the boss comes in and it was cocoa.

We were both wrong. We were both idiots. Just because cinnamon makes "more sense" and seems like it is the better answer doesn't mean it is the right answer.

If you can't understand this, then there is a real problem with your critical thinking skills.

I don't need to know the answer because IMO the real answer is, we don't know and will probably never know, move on, new question. You want to show me how big bang happened and the things we can observe about that fanfreakin'tastic. But don't sit there and try to shove this down my throat as the "answer" to the origins of the universe.

The best answer we have come up with is nowhere NEAR the truth.
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 09:18 AM   #397
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,487
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Or people who functionally reject stork theory in favor of the theory of sexual reproduction.

Zealots!
You can observe the theory of sexual reproduction. Please tell me that you can see the difference between something you can OBSERVE HAPPENING and something that happened billions of years ago on a scale we don't quite understand.

I mean for crying out loud people, is this going to be nothing but straw men?

Anyway as I pointed out earlier, people illogically cling to this theory and being skeptical about it is akin to shoving a javelin through baby Jesus's heart in the manger.

How DARE I question something that has not been proven and cannot be proven. OMG How dare I.
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 09:18 AM   #398
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: On the Flanders/Nederland border.
Posts: 35,445
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
God has nothing to do with Big Bang.
We are in agreement.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 09:20 AM   #399
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: On the Flanders/Nederland border.
Posts: 35,445
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Nope. The fact that you are asking this goes right on back to the "binary opposition" logical fail that always happens on here. We must either be FOR something or AGAINST it. If we examine it critically it means we are AGAINST IT.

.
I'm not for or against the Big Bang. It's just a fact. You may as well ask if I'm for or against the Moon being there.

Last edited by dafydd; 28th January 2013 at 09:22 AM.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2013, 09:21 AM   #400
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: On the Flanders/Nederland border.
Posts: 35,445
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Anyway as I pointed out earlier, people illogically cling to this theory and being skeptical about it is akin to shoving a javelin through baby Jesus's heart in the manger.
:
I thought that you were an atheist.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

JREF Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:28 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2001-2013, James Randi Educational Foundation. All Rights Reserved.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.