Moderated: Why I have a tough time talking to believers.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Belief in pixies is irrational. Belief in beings like pixies is irrational. Gods are beings like pixies. If you believe in beings like pixies you are irrational.

Yes. And no one has disagreed with that.

Maybe one day, when you decide to stop looking at the situation from inside a toilet paper roll, you will understand that just because some people have irrational beliefs, it doesn't always mean you can't have a rational dialogue with them (In fact, everyone holds some kind of irrational mindset. No one, not even you, is safe from that, so judging people on that basis and putting them on a pigeonhole is absurd and dishonest) Some of them are way more open minded than you think, and even if you can never reach a full agreement on everything, even if we can't always change the other person's minds about their beliefs, there is still a lot we can all learn from each other (A Buddhist may never convince you that Karma exists, and you may never convince him that there is no such thing as Karma or Life-Force, but he can teach you a valuable practical every-day life lesson through a Koan)

Sadly, as of now, you are as obtuse on this subject as any Christian Fundie on the subject of God, and it is clear I'm not getting anywhere with you. Have a good day.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Yes. And no one has disagreed with that.

Maybe one day, when you decide to stop looking at the situation from inside a toilet paper roll, you will understand that just because some people have irrational beliefs, it doesn't always mean you can't have a rational dialogue with them. Some of them are way more open minded than you think, and even if you can never reach a full agreement on everything, even if we can't always change the other person's minds about their beliefs, there is a lot we can all learn from each other.

Sadly, as of now, you are as obtuse on this subject as any Christian Fundie on the subject of God, and it is clear I'm not getting anywhere with you. Have a good day.

Spoken like a true believer.

Clearly it's possible to have a rational discussion with a believer as long as you avoid the mine field of his irrationality. Your personal mine field seems to be preaching tolerance of irrationality.

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Yes. And no one has disagreed with that.

Maybe one day, when you decide to stop looking at the situation from inside a toilet paper roll, you will understand that just because some people have irrational beliefs, it doesn't always mean you can't have a rational dialogue with them (In fact, everyone holds some kind of irrational mindset. No one, not even you, is safe from that, so judging people on that basis and putting them on a pigeonhole is absurd and dishonest) Some of them are way more open minded than you think, and even if you can never reach a full agreement on everything, even if we can't always change the other person's minds about their beliefs, there is still a lot we can all learn from each other (A Buddhist may never convince you that Karma exists, and you may never convince him that there is no such thing as Karma or Life-Force, but he can teach you a valuable practical every-day life lesson through a Koan)

Sadly, as of now, you are as obtuse on this subject as any Christian Fundie on the subject of God, and it is clear I'm not getting anywhere with you. Have a good day.

You prove my point nicely. Thanks.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

You prove my point nicely. Thanks.

"I think those who have irrational beliefs can be talked to rationally and to prove my point I'm going to call names and stomp off".

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by tsig

"I think those who have irrational beliefs can be talked to rationally and to prove my point I'm going to call names and stomp off".

rAmen.

[oody]

Blind spots are a part of the human condition. It is the nature of blind spots that we do not see our own. And it's always fun to read the pronouncements of those who claim to have none.

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by oody

Blind spots are a part of the human condition. It it the nature of blind spots that we do not see our own. And it's always fun to read the pronouncements of those who claim to have none.

Rationalization.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by oody

Blind spots are a part of the human condition. It it the nature of blind spots that we do not see our own. And it's always fun to read the pronouncements of those who claim to have none.

I take my blind Spot out for a walk every day.

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by tsig

I take my blind Spot out for a walk every day.

And you have a blind Spot, so everybody has a blind Spot. Good doagie.

[Rasmus]

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

(In fact, everyone holds some kind of irrational mindset. No one, not even you, is safe from that, so judging people on that basis and putting them on a pigeonhole is absurd and dishonest)

What irrational belief or beliefs do I hold?

Does it make a difference whether I have ever reflected upon these beliefs much, or whether I would abandon them once my errors are pointed out to me?

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by Rasmus

What irrational belief or beliefs do I hold?

Ain't it grand? "I can't avoid believing in pixies, so you can't avoid believing in pixies."

Quote:

Does it make a difference whether I have ever reflected upon these beliefs much, or whether I would abandon them once my errors are pointed out to me?

The difference is irrational beliefs are so much more difficult to change than incorrect beliefs. When I was 14 I was told FDR Let It Happen On Purpose(tm). After some study on the topic I found that this wasn't true.

[Rasmus]

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Ain't it grand? "I can't avoid believing in pixies, so you can't avoid believing in pixies."

I believe in pixies? Aw, man, no! I wanted an irrational belief that's cool, at least. Like space ships or mind reading! Can't I have that?

Quote:

The difference is irrational beliefs are so much more difficult to change than incorrect beliefs. When I was 14 I was told FDR Let It Happen On Purpose(tm). After some study on the topic I found that this wasn't true.

I would argue that your initial belief wasn't "irrational", it was a-rational. Random, if you will. Someone told you and you simply believed them. It'd turn into an irrational belief once someone else showed you that things might not be what you were told, and you kept believing it without further consideration. (And then, we'd have to discuss what those reasons were, who you think you can trust, etc.)

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by Rasmus

I believe in pixies? Aw, man, no! I wanted an irrational belief that's cool, at least. Like space ships or mind reading! Can't I have that?

I have relatives who believe the Harry Potter books actually teach children how to do witchcraft.

Quote:

I would argue that your initial belief wasn't "irrational", it was a-rational. Random, if you will. Someone told you and you simply believed them. It'd turn into an irrational belief once someone else showed you that things might not be what you were told, and you kept believing it without further consideration. (And then, we'd have to discuss what those reasons were, who you think you can trust, etc.)

I didn't say my belief about FDR was irrational.

[Gawdzilla]

This is the kind of thing I've been talking about:

Never Stop Believing

Quote:

So what does this mean to you today? Lots of things, but for today I will simply focus on the fact that the enemy wants to get you to stop believing. Nothing is impossible to him that believes (Mark 9:23), but not if you stop believing in the space between your confession and the completion of it. Is there anything you have given up hope on? If there is, this is your opportunity to repent and to start believing again. Life is tough sometimes and we all face challenges, but we must never give up, cave in, or quit! Never, never, never stop believing! No matter how long and how hard it has been, God can still bring it to pass! Do you believe that?

And thanks to the nice person who sent that link to me. I doubt not at all that you sincerely believed it would make me "see the light".

[Rasmus]

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

I didn't say my belief about FDR was irrational.

Fair enough. I still like my general point.

[oody]

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Rationalization.

Arrogance.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

This is the kind of thing I've been talking about:

Never Stop Believing

Quote:

Quote:
So what does this mean to you today? Lots of things, but for today I will simply focus on the fact that the enemy wants to get you to stop believing. Nothing is impossible to him that believes (Mark 9:23), but not if you stop believing in the space between your confession and the completion of it. Is there anything you have given up hope on? If there is, this is your opportunity to repent and to start believing again. Life is tough sometimes and we all face challenges, but we must never give up, cave in, or quit! Never, never, never stop believing! No matter how long and how hard it has been, God can still bring it to pass! Do you believe that?

And thanks to the nice person who sent that link to me. I doubt not at all that you sincerely believed it would make me "see the light".

WOW, does this mean I can still hope to play center field for the Chicago Cubs!

[tsig]

Originally Posted by oody

Arrogance.

Ignorance.

[deaman]

Look.

Why don't we just cut to the chase so everybody can do something constructive with their day, instead of wasting it here on an arguement that will change no one.

Please choose one.

1. I am right and you are wrong.

2. You are wrong and I am right.

From now on, just place the appropriate number in your post in this thread. This should free up some time, in which to do something constructive.

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by oody

Arrogance.

That too.

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by deaman

Look.

Why don't we just cut to the chase so everybody can do something constructive with their day, instead of wasting it here on an arguement that will change no one.

Please choose one.

1. I am right and you are wrong.

2. You are wrong and I am right.

From now on, just place the appropriate number in your post in this thread. This should free up some time, in which to do something constructive.

3.

[monty1]

Can a highly intelligent person maintain a literal belief in one of the bibles? I believe there are such people in existence who do. Such is the power of childhood indoctrination that becomes impossible to escape. Therein lies the solution to the problem of religion's survival and how it dictates to us in an irrational way.

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by monty1

Can a highly intelligent person maintain a literal belief in one of the bibles? I believe there are such people in existence who do. Such is the power of childhood indoctrination that becomes impossible to escape. Therein lies the solution to the problem of religion's survival and how it dictates to us in an irrational way.

Better question, can a highly rational person maintain a literal belief in one of the bibles. Newton was an ardent believer and a bit more intelligent than me. (British "bit", old chap.) But being highly intelligent doesn't automatically make one rational, and you don't have to be highly intelligent to be rational.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by GIBHOR

What do you have on hand, to convince me, the natural world is all there is ? once you accomplish that, i will deconvert.......

That's impossible to prove even in principle. Talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Dogdoctor

Religion provides structure in peoples lives.

So does Dungeons and Dragons.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Dogdoctor

It's really simple when something bad happens they pray to god. Instead of expending effort blaming themselves and expending effort trying to understand what happened. Atheists have to search for comfort and find ways to deal with whatever maybe even post about it on some interent board.

Or, maybe, instead of praying to pixies, they actually try to solve the problem themselves.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Dogdoctor

Religion provides structure in peoples lives.

Playing in three bands, babysitting my grandchildren, chopping wood, shopping, cooking, cleaning, drawing, washing, ironing, visiting friends and throwing the occasional dinner party provides structure in my life, no magic invisible beings needed. When things go wrong I try to deal with the problem instead of babbling away to a sky daddy.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Originally Posted by tsig

Spoken like a true believer.

Clearly it's possible to have a rational discussion with a believer as long as you avoid the mine field of his irrationality. Your personal mine field seems to be preaching tolerance of irrationality.

Spoken like a true obtuse-minded fellow.

The fact that you and the OP continue to interpret what I've been saying as if I was being apologetic for irrational people, and preaching tolerance of irrationality, is further proof that you're as close minded as any Religious Fundie, to really understand what I've been saying in this thread over a hundred times. And yet, the message still doesn't get to you. The Irony-Meter has just exploded.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

A. C. Doyle wasn't a fundamentalist ignoramus. You missed the point of the OP there.

I would tend to agree with that. Nobody said that all believers are ignoramuses. Deluded is not the same as ignorant.

[RSLancastr]

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

The believers will just deflect the conversation away from their own personal pixies. Waste of time. And I don't have any believer friends.

As to the first part of that:

Certainly, most people will try to steer a conversation away from subjects which make them uncomfortable. And for some (but not all) believers (of various types), this includes subjects which threaten their belief.

Fortunately, as I said, not all believers are like this. Some - even some "hard core" believers - are willing to honestly discuss their belief, and to actually consider the other side, even if only in hopes of being able to shoot holes in it. By avoiding discussions with believers, you are missing opportunities to help people - and, theoretically at least, to be helped by them - to learn.

Certainly, if I was of the mindset that talking with believers was a fool's errand, I would never have created my Stop Kaz and Stop Sylvia sites.

And both of those sites have resulted in emails which, if they are to be believed, show that even hard-core believers in something can - and sometimes do - consider and accept evidence contrary to their belief.

[Gawdzilla]

If you have read the entire thread you'll notice that I did say some believers are able to shift out of their irrational position.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Spoken like a true obtuse-minded fellow.

The fact that you and the OP continue to interpret what I've been saying as if I was being apologetic for irrational people, and preaching tolerance of irrationality, is further proof that you're as close minded as any Religious Fundie, to really understand what I've been saying in this thread over a hundred times. And yet, the message still doesn't get to you. The Irony-Meter has just exploded.

You know instead of berating me as close minded you could have tried to communicate what it is you're trying to say.

[punshhh]

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Is it rational to believe in pixies?

Yes, it is pretty much irrational to believe in anything.

I take it that "rational" ="wise"

[punshhh]

Originally Posted by The Norseman

Depends on what you mean by 'consider'. If by 'consider' you mean that you fully acknowledge it is among all the other fictional creations of humankind, then no, it's not irrational.

This is irrelevant as there are believers who believe in something which is not a fictional creation of the human mind.

This is a common fallacy on this forum, that God is a fictional creation. There are circumstances where this is correct, but there are many believers and people who accept that there may be a god, who are talking about something beyond, more real than mental fiction.

Quote:

If by 'consider' you are saying that a god has independent existence and it's knowable then I'd venture to say that it's irrational when there's not evidence with which to base this existence on (such as literally every other thing that humans can say 'exists'.)

Incorrect, there is much evidence. Which is dismissed out of hand due to it being anecdotal and a result of the frail human mind and nature.

Quote:

Yes, logic informs humans of what exists or not. Evidence plays a far greater role, however.

Wrong again, logic cannot inform us about existence. Also logic is one of those mental creations mentioned above.

Also evidence can only inform us about what we are able to perceive, or represent.

[punshhh]

Originally Posted by dafydd

More bald statements. How do you know that there is more to existence? Please reply with some proof and not just another 'I don't know but I know'' statement.

I know that there is more to existence by using reason/rational thought/wisdom.

Simply if it were the case that all that exists is what is known to science. Then that would mean that a primitive primate on a tiny planet, which evolved to reach for bananas. Is capable in a few hundreds or thousands years to come to understand the basis of his/her existence and everything else.

Now talk about irrational beliefs, I ask you.

[MikeG]

Originally Posted by punshhh

....... Incorrect, there is much evidence. ......

Oh thank goodness for that! I've been waiting 50 years for someone to provide any evidence for god, and finally we'll have the chance to have a look at it. Great stuff!! Now, where can I find this evidence?

Mike

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by punshhh

This is a common fallacy on this forum, that God is a fictional creation. There are circumstances where this is correct, but there are many believers and people who accept that there may be a god, who are talking about something beyond, more real than mental fiction.

Where is the proof that gods are not creations of the human mind? Animals don't have gods.

[punshhh]

Originally Posted by dafydd

Non-believers consider the existence of a god? You didn't think that one through.

So the only way to come to the opinion that a god may exist is to believe in that god? The human mind cannot get there through reason alone?

[punshhh]

Originally Posted by MikeG

Oh thank goodness for that! I've been waiting 50 years for someone to provide any evidence for god, and finally we'll have the chance to have a look at it. Great stuff!! Now, where can I find this evidence?

Mike

Ask a religious or spiritual person.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by punshhh

I know that there is more to existence by using reason/rational thought/wisdom.

Guide us through the process.

Quote:

Simply if it were the case that all that exists is what is known to science. Then that would mean that a primitive primate on a tiny planet, which evolved to reach for bananas. Is capable in a few hundreds or thousands years to come to understand the basis of his/her existence and everything else.

Now talk about irrational beliefs, I ask you.

You are saying that human progress has been guided by a god. That is an irrational belief. We have been around for more than a few hundred or a few thousand years. You still have not told us what you mean by the phrase ''basis of existence''.