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Old 28th January 2013, 01:15 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
So the only way to come to the opinion that a god may exist is to believe in that god? The human mind cannot get there through reason alone?
What? Non-believers do not consider that gods exist. I can't make it any simpler.
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Old 28th January 2013, 01:16 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Where is the proof that gods are not creations of the human mind? Animals don't have gods.
Some believers consider an intelligent creator to be the origin of our existence. There is evidence of intelligent creators arising naturally in the environment we find ourselves in.

This is proof that intelligent creators emerge in existence quite naturally.
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Old 28th January 2013, 01:17 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Ask a religious or spiritual person.
I have, frequently, including you and have yet to be presented with proof of the existence of a god.
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Old 28th January 2013, 01:18 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Some believers consider an intelligent creator to be the origin of our existence. There is evidence of intelligent creators arising naturally in the environment we find ourselves in.

This is proof that intelligent creators emerge in existence quite naturally.
Please present the evidence that you mention. That is all you ever do, mention it. You never say what it is.
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Old 28th January 2013, 01:25 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Please present the evidence that you mention. That is all you ever do, mention it. You never say what it is.
I have but I don't think you were about to hear it at the time.

My evidence is that an intelligent being (humanity)has emerged quite naturally in nature and will soon create an artificial intelligent being(AI), which will in turn create other artificial or biological beings, which will in turn create others etc etc.

Intelligent creation at work!

After a while this may result in the technology to manipulate spacetime and as if by magic a god is created. What could be simpler?

Last edited by punshhh; 28th January 2013 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 28th January 2013, 01:28 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Ask a religious or spiritual person.
No, don't do that to me. You said you had evidence, so I asked you. Now you tell me to ask someone else......

So, to narrow my search, does every religious or spiritual person have this evidence, or do I have to ask particular ones?

Last edited by MikeG; 28th January 2013 at 03:06 AM.
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Old 28th January 2013, 02:00 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
I have but I don't think you were about to hear it at the time.

My evidence is that an intelligent being (humanity)has emerged quite naturally in nature and will soon create an artificial intelligent being(AI), which will in turn create other artificial or biological beings, which will in turn create others etc etc.

Intelligent creation at work!

After a while this may result in the technology to manipulate spacetime and as if by magic a god is created. What could be simpler?
So you have no evidence of the existence of a god. AI is science, not religion and will never lead to the creation of a universe. And there was me thinking that after thousands of years of failure on the part of believers to provide evidence of the existence of a god, you were going to be the first to do so. Anyway, your belief only begs the question.
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Old 28th January 2013, 02:01 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
No, don't do that to me. You said you had evidence, so I asked you. Now you tell me to ask someone else......

So, to narrow my search, does every religious or spiritual person have this evidence, or do I have to ask special ones?
The special ones do not exist and neither does the evidence.
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Old 28th January 2013, 02:16 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
What could be simpler?
Believing in the existence of a god.
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:13 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
So you have no evidence of the existence of a god.
It is evidence of creators. All you have to do is scale up from there.
Quote:
AI is science, not religion and will never lead to the creation of a universe.
You sound like one of the old testament prophets.

Last edited by punshhh; 28th January 2013 at 03:18 AM.
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:17 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
No, don't do that to me. You said you had evidence,
Did I, I don't think so.

Quote:
So, to narrow my search, does every religious or spiritual person have this evidence, or do I have to ask particular ones?
I think you will have to use your initiative. When I searched for the evidence thats what was required.
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:25 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Some believers consider an intelligent creator to be the origin of our existence. There is evidence of intelligent creators arising naturally in the environment we find ourselves in.

This is proof that intelligent creators emerge in existence quite naturally.
Tell us about this evidence and proof. Merely saying that it is there will not conjure it into existence.
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:26 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post

I think you will have to use your initiative. When I searched for the evidence thats what was required.
If you found it then please post it here. Your point of view seems to be ''we are here therefore god''.
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:27 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
It is evidence of creators.:
What is?
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:28 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
You sound like one of the old testament prophets.
No I don't. If you had ever read the bible you would know that. Anyway, I'm real, not fictional. Maybe you could get one of the pixies in your foliage to present the evidence, he'd do a much better job. He couldn't do worse, that's for sure. Perhaps you didn't notice that I have made no prophecies.

Last edited by dafydd; 28th January 2013 at 03:34 AM.
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:32 AM   #216
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This is the kind of crap that prophets spout.

http://www.quotefully.com/movie/Life.../False+Prophet
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:35 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Did I, I don't think so.
Do try and concentrate. It was less than a page ago:

Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
This is irrelevant as there are believers who believe in something which is not a fictional creation of the human mind.

This is a common fallacy on this forum, that God is a fictional creation. There are circumstances where this is correct, but there are many believers and people who accept that there may be a god, who are talking about something beyond, more real than mental fiction.

Incorrect, there is much evidence. Which is dismissed out of hand due to it being anecdotal and a result of the frail human mind and nature.

Wrong again, logic cannot inform us about existence. Also logic is one of those mental creations mentioned above.

Also evidence can only inform us about what we are able to perceive, or represent.
Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
I think you will have to use your initiative. When I searched for the evidence thats what was required.
I already used my initiative in asking the person who said there was evidence: you. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that you be the one to produce that evidence, as you are the one making the claim.

Mike
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:36 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Do try and concentrate. It was less than a page ago:




Mysticism causes amnesia.
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:38 AM   #219
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Why waste one's time and initiative in searching for evidence of imaginary creatures?

Last edited by dafydd; 28th January 2013 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:42 AM   #220
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Not that, Dafydd. I am wasting a little of my time and initiative asking for the results of someone else's search. If this search has reached earth-shattering evidence-backed conclusions as claimed, then I'd be interested to hear of it.

Mike
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:43 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Ask a religious or spiritual person.
They got nothing.
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:43 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Not that, Dafydd. I am wasting a little of my time and initiative asking for the results of someone else's search. If this search has reached earth-shattering evidence-backed conclusions as claimed, then I'd be interested to hear of it.

Mike
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:45 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
There is evidence of intelligent creators arising naturally in the environment we find ourselves in.
Such as...
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:53 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Such as...
C'mon punshhh, we are agog. Where is the evidence of intelligent creators arising naturally around us? It's not those faces in your foliage surely? That was pareidolia.

Last edited by dafydd; 28th January 2013 at 03:54 AM.
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:57 AM   #225
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The universe is vast. Why would an intelligent creator arise on this insignificant speck of dust and what would they create? Everything is already here, due to the Big Bang, and later on, evolution.
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Old 28th January 2013, 04:27 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
The universe is vast. Why would an intelligent creator arise on this insignificant speck of dust and what would they create? Everything is already here, due to the Big Bang, and later on, evolution.
"HA! You used 'Big Bang' and 'evolution' in the same sentence. That proves you have FAITH that they're the same thing. Checkmate, atheists!"
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Old 28th January 2013, 04:40 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
C'mon punshhh, we are agog. Where is the evidence of intelligent creators arising naturally around us? It's not those faces in your foliage surely? That was pareidolia.
Look in the mirror, there you're face to face with an intelligent creator <SNIP>.

Edited by Locknar:  SNIPed, breach of rule 12.

Last edited by Locknar; 29th January 2013 at 04:38 AM.
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Old 28th January 2013, 04:41 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Such as...
Homo Sapiens.
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Old 28th January 2013, 04:44 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Do try and concentrate. It was less than a page ago:





I already used my initiative in asking the person who said there was evidence: you. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that you be the one to produce that evidence, as you are the one making the claim.

Mike
There is a difference between saying there is evidence and saying I have evidence
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Old 28th January 2013, 04:45 AM   #230
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Why people think that others are interested in their justification for treating people like garbage and being an arrogant jerk is beyond me.

The reading comprehension issues in this thread are staggering to say the least.

There was no positive claim about God, there was the statement made that until you can prove that everything in the world just came into existence on it's own in a natural way, the poster is going to keep the possibility of a supernatural or intelligent creator of it all open.

What is very bizarre about this statement is that it is a LOGICAL STATEMENT because it is based on disbelief of those who say they "know" how the world came to be.

When someone says existence started with the BIG BANG I'm pretty shocked. What's the difference between believing in the "Big Bang" and "Believing in God."

Yes we may have evolved in knowledge enough to be able to track information and data that as we currently interpret it, looks like the big bang theory is correct. But you don't KNOW that anymore than a person who says they KNOW there is a God.

When people say things just as stupid and narrow minded as the worst Christian fundy out there, and then try to pretend this way of thinking is "sophisticated" just because it sneers at God belief I'm truly shocked.

I can't believe that people could be so clueless.
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Old 28th January 2013, 04:45 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Look in the mirror, there you're face to face with an intelligent creator (although I don't think intelligent is the right word in this case).
Resorting to personal insults is a sure sign that you have no arguments. I'm a musician, but creating a piece of music is not supernatural and does not require mysticism or imaginary beings. We will take it that you have no evidence of your claims.
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Old 28th January 2013, 04:47 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
There is a difference between saying there is evidence and saying I have evidence
If you know that there is evidence then you would know the nature of the evidence. I can only conclude that you have no cognizance of any evidence. You are trolling now.

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Old 28th January 2013, 04:48 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Homo Sapiens.
And how does that prove the existence of a creator god? You are floundering badly.
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Old 28th January 2013, 04:49 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Resorting to personal insults is a sure sign that you have no arguments. I'm a musician, but creating a piece of music is not supernatural and does not require mysticism or imaginary beings. We will take it that you have no evidence of your claims.
I was joking.

There you are, creating a piece of music is just the same as creating a universe and visa versa. Who said anything about supernatural processes?
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Old 28th January 2013, 04:50 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
And how does that prove the existence of a creator god? You are floundering badly.
Who said anything about proof?
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Old 28th January 2013, 04:52 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
I was joking.
Could you please warn us the next time you make an attempt at humour? Then we will know when you are trying to be funny.
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Old 28th January 2013, 04:53 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Why people think that others are interested in their justification for treating people like garbage and being an arrogant jerk is beyond me.

The reading comprehension issues in this thread are staggering to say the least.

There was no positive claim about God, there was the statement made that until you can prove that everything in the world just came into existence on it's own in a natural way, the poster is going to keep the possibility of a supernatural or intelligent creator of it all open.

What is very bizarre about this statement is that it is a LOGICAL STATEMENT because it is based on disbelief of those who say they "know" how the world came to be.

When someone says existence started with the BIG BANG I'm pretty shocked. What's the difference between believing in the "Big Bang" and "Believing in God."

Yes we may have evolved in knowledge enough to be able to track information and data that as we currently interpret it, looks like the big bang theory is correct. But you don't KNOW that anymore than a person who says they KNOW there is a God.

When people say things just as stupid and narrow minded as the worst Christian fundy out there, and then try to pretend this way of thinking is "sophisticated" just because it sneers at God belief I'm truly shocked.

I can't believe that people could be so clueless.
Thanks truethat, it can be repetitive cutting a swathe through the fallacious thinking.
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Old 28th January 2013, 04:54 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
I was joking.

There you are, creating a piece of music is just the same as creating a universe and visa versa. Who said anything about supernatural processes?
Waving a magic wand and creating a universe would not be supernatural? You can make cabinets but you cannot create a universe. It's nice to know that you are not serious about this mysticism nonsense.
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Old 28th January 2013, 04:55 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Thanks truethat, it can be repetitive cutting a swathe through the fallacious thinking.
Not even making a dent on it. Who needs a god for the Big Bang?
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Old 28th January 2013, 04:57 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Who said anything about proof?
Oh dear. Any evidence from you about the existence of creator gods would constitute proof. You seem to think that you can conjure them into existence with a wave of your keyboard. How's tricks on the other side of the event horizon of the formless? If you won't explain about that perhaps truethat would care to elucidate. Truethat, do you have any idea what the phrase ''beyond the event horizon of the formless'' means? Apart from being pure gibberish?

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