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Old 28th January 2013, 07:13 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
There has been no positive statement about God made in this thread.

You and Daffydd have made positive statements about Big Bang.


PROVE IT.


Otherwise you are doing the exact same thing you are accusing the believers of doing.
Dodging, I see. Claims that the Big Bang couldn't come from nothing are met with requests for evidence that God DID come from nothing, i.e., has "always been there".

Do try to keep up.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:13 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Don't you remember I said there are people who consider the existence of gods who don't believe in a god. I am not an atheist, that would require a belief.
This reading comprehension stuff is amazing.


Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Dodging, I see. Claims that the Big Bang couldn't come from nothing are met with requests for evidence that God DID come from nothing, i.e., has "always been there".

Do try to keep up.
You try to keep up. Please show where ANYONE IN THE THREAD made a positve statement about God.


Go on, go look. Go find one. You are the one who is dodging.


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Old 28th January 2013, 07:14 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Don't you remember I said there are people who consider the existence of gods who don't believe in a god. I am not an atheist, that would require a belief.
You are an agnostic? Or are you a theist? You believe in pixies in your foliage, beyond the event horizon of the formless and that there could be an infinite number of creator gods. You once said that you made a woman look at you through a window with the power of your mind. You have stated all these things. Of course you have beliefs, don't be so disingenuous
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:16 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Dodging, I see. Claims that the Big Bang couldn't come from nothing are met with requests for evidence that God DID come from nothing, i.e., has "always been there".

Do try to keep up.
All I said was that the Big Bang happened. I wonder who Daffydd is?
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:17 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
From what?
From nature, or more specifically from what exists.

The mechanism, just like all other mechanisms resulting in the existence we find ourselves in, is unknown to humanity.


With all this doubt and unknown causes, how do you know that believers are irrational?
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:19 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
All I said was that the Big Bang happened. I wonder who Daffydd is?
Prove it.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:23 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
From nature, or more specifically from what exists.

The mechanism, just like all other mechanisms resulting in the existence we find ourselves in, is unknown to humanity.


With all this doubt and unknown causes, how do you know that believers are irrational?

This is what I find very amusing. If the universe on it's own could pop into existence with Big Bang, why couldn't a God come into existence on it's own with a Big Bang god making energy thing.

There's no way to argue this statement. I can see why for many people they definitely feel there is a God and not just based on "stories in a book" or "ideas" but personal experiences in their lives that feel transcendent and a form of Hierophany.

Do I think it's God? Nope, but I can definitely understand why they would believe it. The same way I don't sneer at Arthur Conan Doyle for believing in pixies that someone showed him "proof of" in photographs.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:23 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post


With all this doubt and unknown causes, how do you know that believers are irrational?
Because they believe with no evidence. What is rational about that?
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:25 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
So you don't want to answer the direct question?


Let's say it again. Link to where anyone made a positive statement about God in this thread?
You made a positive statement about me, prove it.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:26 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
You are an agnostic? Or are you a theist?
I could be described as an agnostic, but mystic is closer. The mystic questions and is skeptical about all things, not just the claims of christians.


Quote:
You believe in pixies in your foliage, beyond the event horizon of the formless and that there could be an infinite number of creator gods. You once said that you made a woman look at you through a window with the power of your mind. You have stated all these things. Of course you have beliefs, don't be so disingenuous
Your slurs are loosing their traction now. I suggest you look up the definition of belief. It is possible to live without any beliefs, you should try it.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:26 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post

The mechanism, just like all other mechanisms resulting in the existence we find ourselves in, is unknown to humanity.

There exists things called cosmology, physics, genetics and evolution. They have to be studied though, you can't make it up on the fly, in stark contrast to religion and mysticism.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:26 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
All I said was that the Big Bang happened. I wonder who Daffydd is?
No you didn't. You said this.

Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
The universe is vast. Why would an intelligent creator arise on this insignificant speck of dust and what would they create? Everything is already here, due to the Big Bang, and later on, evolution.

Please prove that "everything is already here due to the Big Bang and later on, evolution."


Sure seems like an unproven belief system to me.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:26 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
From nature, or more specifically from what exists.

The mechanism, just like all other mechanisms resulting in the existence we find ourselves in, is unknown to humanity.


With all this doubt and unknown causes, how do you know that believers are irrational?
So what existed before God?
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:27 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post

Your slurs are loosing their traction now. I suggest you look up the definition of belief. It is possible to live without any beliefs, you should try it.
You try it first and then tell me how it goes. Requests for evidence are not slurs.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:28 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
So what existed before God?
In another thread he said that there could be an infinite series of creator gods. No evidence of this claim was presented. He also missed the point that gods are immortal and there would be an infinite number of gods.

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Old 28th January 2013, 07:29 AM   #296
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1 plus 1 plus god equals 2

God adds nothing to any understanding.


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God is Surperfluous
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:29 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
So what existed before God?


Who cares? What difference does it make if the person thinks "Godidit" or the person thinks "Big Bang did it."

The truth is, "We don't know."


Maybe the reason you have a tough time talking to believers is that you seem to think demanding answers for unanswerable questions is some sort of trump card "WINNING" Charlie Sheen type move.


But let's play your game, what existed before the Big Bang?
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:34 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
You try to keep up. Please show where ANYONE IN THE THREAD made a positve statement about God.


Go on, go look. Go find one. You are the one who is dodging.


Punnsssh's posts, read them.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:35 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Who cares? What difference does it make if the person thinks "Godidit" or the person thinks "Big Bang did it."

The truth is, "We don't know."


Maybe the reason you have a tough time talking to believers is that you seem to think demanding answers for unanswerable questions is some sort of trump card "WINNING" Charlie Sheen type move.


But let's play your game, what existed before the Big Bang?
"God has always existed, but something had to make the Big Bang." Pay attention, please.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:42 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
. The mystic questions and is skeptical about all things
That's odd. You come across here as the complete opposite of a skeptic. Being both skeptical and a mystic requires a split personality. One more question. Are you skeptical about your fellow mystic Limbo's claims that he dances on the dark side of the Moon and has walked inside a mountain with a goddess?

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Old 28th January 2013, 07:42 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Paulhoff View Post
1 plus 1 plus god equals 2

God adds nothing to any understanding.


Paul


Love this! Is this your own words?
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:43 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Punnsssh's posts, read them.
No, you read them and then quote the one that makes a positive statement about God. You are the one making positive statements about God and arguing against them. Punnnshhh has not done that.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:46 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
In another thread he said that there could be an infinite series of creator gods. No evidence of this claim was presented. He also missed the point that gods are immortal and there would be an infinite number of gods.
Why "couldn't there be."

Do you understand the difference between saying something IS TRUE and saying something COULD BE TRUE?

You have not stated that Big Bang COULD be the origin of the universe and life as we know it. You declared that it WAS the cause.

Stop dodging the question and give proof? You two are the ones acting like you have proof for something when you don't.

It's really funny at this point.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:50 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
. Punnnshhh has not done that.
He hasn't done anything except make claims and then refuse to back them up with the evidence that he says exists.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:52 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Why "couldn't there be."

Do you understand the difference between saying something IS TRUE and saying something COULD BE TRUE?

You have not stated that Big Bang COULD be the origin of the universe and life as we know it. You declared that it WAS the cause.

Stop dodging the question and give proof? You two are the ones acting like you have proof for something when you don't.

It's really funny at this point.
I stopped playing games of ''Let's Pretend'' at a young age. The Big Bang was the cause. I cite the history of the universe as proof. What is your alternative explanation?
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:53 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
No, you read them and then quote the one that makes a positive statement about God. You are the one making positive statements about God and arguing against them. Punnnshhh has not done that.
Okay then.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:55 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Okay then.
I would dearly love to see a positive statement about a god that you have made in this thread. Please quote one, truethat.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:57 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
I stopped playing games of ''Let's Pretend'' at a young age. The Big Bang was the cause. I cite the history of the universe as proof. What is your alternative explanation?
What history of the universe? The tiny amount of information we as humans have managed to cobble together and have changed in theory over and over again for what, the last couple of thousand of years? Are you freakin' serious?

You think we can figure out what happened billions of years ago with the information we've gotten in the last couple of hundred years? Really?

Wow. LMAO

Big Bang happened. You can't equate "cause" to that. All you can observe is that it happened.

You are still playing a game of "Let's Pretend" except instead of it being

"Let's pretend God did it"

You are playing


"Let's pretend humans can figure out the origins of life and how the universe came into existence."


Guess what? It's the same game.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:59 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
What history of the universe?
This one. The real one.

http://www.nasa.gov/externalflash/mather/
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:59 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Yes, it is pretty much irrational to believe in anything.

I take it that "rational" ="wise"
Why would you do that?
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:59 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
I would dearly love to see a positive statement about a god that you have made in this thread. Please quote one, truethat.
Sure, why don't you go find one that Punnshhh has made as well and then it will be a contest OK?
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Old 28th January 2013, 08:00 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post

Uh huh. So because NASA made a video then it tells you that 100 percent, that's what happened.

You do know that this is NOT how science works, do you not?
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Old 28th January 2013, 08:00 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post


"Let's pretend humans can figure out the origins of life and how the universe came into existence."

Yep. It's called science, as opposed to inventing magic super beings.
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Old 28th January 2013, 08:01 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
This is irrelevant as there are believers who believe in something which is not a fictional creation of the human mind.

This is a common fallacy on this forum, that God is a fictional creation. There are circumstances where this is correct, but there are many believers and people who accept that there may be a god, who are talking about something beyond, more real than mental fiction.

Incorrect, there is much evidence. Which is dismissed out of hand due to it being anecdotal and a result of the frail human mind and nature.

Wrong again, logic cannot inform us about existence. Also logic is one of those mental creations mentioned above.

Also evidence can only inform us about what we are able to perceive, or represent.
Believing a thing is real doesn't make it real.
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Old 28th January 2013, 08:01 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Uh huh. So because NASA made a video then it tells you that 100 percent, that's what happened.

You do know that this is NOT how science works, do you not?
Investigation is not how science works? The video, which I know that you won't watch, is the result of the scientific method. What do you suggest? Meditation and prayer? Sitting at the feet of a ''mystic'' for twenty years?

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Old 28th January 2013, 08:03 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Yep. It's called science, as opposed to inventing magic super beings.

Not it isn't. Making up answers to questions you can't answer with your "best guess" is not science. It's someone who can't handle the fact that we don't know the answer and for some reason needs to fill in that blank so they force an answer to be the answer even if they can't prove that it's true.

Some people do that with God.


Some people do that with Big Bang. It's the same damn thing.


We can find evidence that gives up glimpses into the way the universe unfolded but you cannot make statements about what "caused" the universe to come into existence.

It's the same circular argument. If Big Bang happened where did the matter that needed to explode come from? Where did the space for it to explode INTO come from? What caused it to set off when it did?


The answer is WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE AND WE NEVER WILL.
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Old 28th January 2013, 08:04 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
I know that there is more to existence by using reason/rational thought/wisdom.

Simply if it were the case that all that exists is what is known to science. Then that would mean that a primitive primate on a tiny planet, which evolved to reach for bananas. Is capable in a few hundreds or thousands years to come to understand the basis of his/her existence and everything else.

Now talk about irrational beliefs, I ask you.
Your favorite straw man.

ETA: Aren't you also one of these primitive primates?

Last edited by tsig; 28th January 2013 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 28th January 2013, 08:05 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Investigation is not how science works? The video, which I know that you won't watch, is the result of the scientific method. What do you suggest? Meditation and prayer? Sitting at the feet of a ''mystic'' for twenty years?
Science doesn't prove things, it disproves things. That's basic SCIENCE 101 really pathetic for you to be saying this to me when you don't understand that simple fact.
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Old 28th January 2013, 08:05 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Not it isn't. Making up answers to questions you can't answer with your "best guess" is not science. L.
What is the mystical explanation for the cosmic background radiation?
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Old 28th January 2013, 08:06 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Science doesn't prove things, it disproves things. T.
Nope. Science is always proving things. I have A level qualifications in biology, physics and chemistry. What do you have?

Last edited by dafydd; 28th January 2013 at 08:08 AM.
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