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Old 25th January 2013, 07:36 AM   #1
Jonesboy
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The medical model today

In the societies of the West certain experiences are frowned upon. The unlucky person will look to a doctor to get them excised from his or her mental emporium, a dangerous step I think.

Yet in these same societies the experiences and thoughts of poets, artists, bards, and psychics are allowed some freedom from the treatment mandate, and often found acceptable by the public. Madness can come to the door of those who seek solutions in the wrong places. It is not what you ask but who you ask.

However, in some non-Western countries experiences of dying, and other altered states and perceptions are also accepted. In western society these experiences are reclassified en masse into the discourse of pathology whose terms we juggle with today - depression, bipolar, schizo-x, and the like.

The driving forces of these models are cultural, and always religious. Even the medical model of the West is driven, not by science, but by religion and its off-shoots: Science frowns upon any experience that detracts from the armchair domain of experience bequethed to us by our judeo-christian moral history. It is this model that drives the medical model of experience today and drives the promotion of the "mental disorder" which is, ultimately, a social category whose values are founded on judeo-christian materialism.

Last edited by Jonesboy; 25th January 2013 at 07:41 AM.
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Old 25th January 2013, 07:49 AM   #2
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No.
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Old 25th January 2013, 08:00 AM   #3
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Old 25th January 2013, 08:20 AM   #4
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Did you know that Paul McCartney used be in group before 'Wings'?
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Old 25th January 2013, 08:28 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Did you know that Paul McCartney used be in group before 'Wings'?
Not sure that joke works anymore since nobody under 40 remembers Wings. To be funny it relies on personal experience that the youngsters don't have.

It is similar to how some posters think they can determine a medical model based on their personal limited experience.
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Old 25th January 2013, 08:28 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Jonesboy View Post
Even the medical model of the West is driven, not by science, but by religion and its off-shoots...
I'm sorry, but I do not understand how this claim can even be entertained. Plus this:

Originally Posted by Jonesboy View Post
It is this model that drives the medical model of experience today and drives the promotion of the "mental disorder" which is, ultimately, a social category whose values are founded on judeo-christian materialism.
... just betrays an immense ignorance on how mental illnesses are in fact identified, categorized, studied, and treated. It's as if the basic argument is that All Values Flow From Judeo-Christian beliefs, period, and there's so much wrong with the premise - not the least of which is that it's being asserted as a given rather than established through evidence and reason - that there's no reason to even entertain the conclusions drawn from it.
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Old 25th January 2013, 08:36 AM   #7
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[anecdote]

My best friend was diagnosed with Bipolar disorder but challenged the diagnosis and stated instead that it was just that he refused to conform to the mediocrity of so called normal life and society. As a consequence he refused to take his prescribed medication and chose instead to treat his increasingly severe mood swings and panic attacks with alcohol.

He drank himself to death at the age of 42 after 10 difficult, frightening and lonely years.

YMMV
[/anecdote]

Of course his experiences were merely a result of fighting against Judeo-Christian mores and had nothing to do with his altered brain chemistry.
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Old 25th January 2013, 08:39 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Did you know that Paul McCartney used be in group before 'Wings'?
Would Dave Grohl and Nirvana be an alternative or am I once again showing my age ?

Maybe "Did you know Arnold Schwarzenegger used to be a politician ?" for those with really short memories
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Old 25th January 2013, 08:56 AM   #9
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Did anybody know that Paul McCartney used to be in a group called the Quarrymen?
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Old 25th January 2013, 09:14 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Jonesboy View Post

The driving forces of these models are cultural, and always religious. Even the medical model of the West is driven, not by science, but by religion and its off-shoots: Science frowns upon any experience that detracts from the armchair domain of experience bequethed to us by our judeo-christian moral history. It is this model that drives the medical model of experience today and drives the promotion of the "mental disorder" which is, ultimately, a social category whose values are founded on judeo-christian materialism.
I call BS!

Can you give a concrete example that corroborates the statement above? Please indicate clearly how your example unambigously shows how modern Western medicine is not driven by evidence based scientific methodology, but rather by religion.

I won't be holding my breath.

Last edited by crhkrebs; 25th January 2013 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 25th January 2013, 09:20 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Did anybody know that Paul McCartney used to be in a group called the Quarrymen?
Or how about "Johnny and the Moondogs"?
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Old 25th January 2013, 09:20 AM   #12
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The same straw man you were beating up in your "Nutcases and stigmatisation" thread.
Let's put this out there again:
Quote:
“All psychiatric diagnoses occur within a cultural context,” said Jack Drescher, a member of the APA subcommittee working on the revision. “We know there is a whole community of people out there who are not seeking medical attention and live between the two binary categories. We wanted to send the message that the therapist’s job isn’t to pathologize.
The quote is by APA member Jack Drescher and the context is the recent updated Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders and the move from “Gender Identity Disorder” to “Gender Dysphoria”
http://www.advocate.com/politics/tra...nder-dysphoria
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Old 25th January 2013, 09:30 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
My best friend was diagnosed with Bipolar disorder but challenged the diagnosis and stated instead that it was just that he refused to conform to the mediocrity of so called normal life and society. As a consequence he refused to take his prescribed medication and chose instead to treat his increasingly severe mood swings and panic attacks with alcohol.

He drank himself to death at the age of 42 after 10 difficult, frightening and lonely years.
Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, that is not an uncommon story.
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Old 25th January 2013, 10:01 AM   #14
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If pigs had wings, they still could not fly. Square-cube_lawWP you know.

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Old 25th January 2013, 10:09 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Jonesboy View Post
The unlucky person will look to a doctor to get them excised from his or her mental emporium, a dangerous step I think.
How could you tell he's a doctor without first dissecting him?
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Old 25th January 2013, 10:26 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
No.
ditto
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Old 25th January 2013, 10:28 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Did anybody know that Paul McCartney used to be in a group called the Quarrymen?
And Eric Clapton was in lots of bands, like the Blues Breakers.
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Old 25th January 2013, 10:53 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Jonesboy View Post
In the societies of the West certain experiences are frowned upon. The unlucky person will look to a doctor to get them excised from his or her mental emporium, a dangerous step I think.

Yet in these same societies the experiences and thoughts of poets, artists, bards, and psychics are allowed some freedom from the treatment mandate, and often found acceptable by the public. Madness can come to the door of those who seek solutions in the wrong places. It is not what you ask but who you ask.

However, in some non-Western countries experiences of dying, and other altered states and perceptions are also accepted. In western society these experiences are reclassified en masse into the discourse of pathology whose terms we juggle with today - depression, bipolar, schizo-x, and the like.

The driving forces of these models are cultural, and always religious. Even the medical model of the West is driven, not by science, but by religion and its off-shoots: Science frowns upon any experience that detracts from the armchair domain of experience bequethed to us by our judeo-christian moral history. It is this model that drives the medical model of experience today and drives the promotion of the "mental disorder" which is, ultimately, a social category whose values are founded on judeo-christian materialism.
No. That's not the case.
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Old 25th January 2013, 10:59 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
How could you tell he's a doctor without first dissecting him?
Take a DNA sample and soak it in vinegar.

Last edited by dafydd; 25th January 2013 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 25th January 2013, 12:03 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Take a DNA sample and soak it in vinegar.

And how does that prove he's not a worm?
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Old 25th January 2013, 12:16 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
And how does that prove he's not a worm?
You have to pass him one at a time simultaneously through a double slit.
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Old 25th January 2013, 03:30 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Not sure that joke works anymore since nobody under 40 remembers Wings. To be funny it relies on personal experience that the youngsters don't have.
What are you talking about, Wings was a great show!
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Old 25th January 2013, 04:01 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Not sure that joke works anymore since nobody under 40 remembers Wings.
I'm still trying to forget them.
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Old 25th January 2013, 04:31 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
What are you talking about, Wings was a great show!
I'm all seriously! I esp. loved the episodes on B-52s and F-104s.

So do y'all prefer chili with beans or without?
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Old 25th January 2013, 05:14 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
I'm all seriously! I esp. loved the episodes on B-52s and F-104s.

So do y'all prefer chili with beans or without?
For me it was the SR-71. Cool factor off the scale.

As it's Australia Day today, with lamingtons please.
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Old 26th January 2013, 10:37 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus View Post
I'm sorry, but I do not understand how this claim can even be entertained. Plus this:



... just betrays an immense ignorance on how mental illnesses are in fact identified, categorized, studied, and treated. It's as if the basic argument is that All Values Flow From Judeo-Christian beliefs, period, and there's so much wrong with the premise - not the least of which is that it's being asserted as a given rather than established through evidence and reason - that there's no reason to even entertain the conclusions drawn from it.
I think you might profit by attending to your ignorance of what YOU mean by mental illness, for I am absolutely sure that you, or anyone else you would appeal to, could not frame any answer that would be coherent.

Welcome to the dark corner of our century.

JREF has a problem, and I was hoping that someone might have spotted it by now. It is that every generation has its dark corners that can only be illuminated by the next. Even JREF has dark corners that dwarf those he rails against.

And this is one of them.
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Old 26th January 2013, 10:39 AM   #27
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Old 26th January 2013, 10:43 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by crhkrebs View Post
I call BS!

Can you give a concrete example that corroborates the statement above? Please indicate clearly how your example unambigously shows how modern Western medicine is not driven by evidence based scientific methodology, but rather by religion.

I won't be holding my breath.

There is no evidence for mental illness. The reason for this is that it is a social category, and can merit no physical evidence.

So, it is up to the mental illness pundits to say what the evidence is for mental illness. And there is none, not least because there is no coherent definition of the term coming from their camp.
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Old 26th January 2013, 10:45 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Jonesboy View Post
I think you might profit by attending to your ignorance of what YOU mean by mental illness, for I am absolutely sure that you, or anyone else you would appeal to, could not frame any answer that would be coherent.

Welcome to the dark corner of our century.

JREF has a problem, and I was hoping that someone might have spotted it by now. It is that every generation has its dark corners that can only be illuminated by the next. Even JREF has dark corners that dwarf those he rails against.

And this is one of them.
I'm sure this place would be lit, if only someone could explain the true nature of light to us.
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Old 26th January 2013, 10:47 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
[anecdote]

My best friend was diagnosed with Bipolar disorder but challenged the diagnosis and stated instead that it was just that he refused to conform to the mediocrity of so called normal life and society. As a consequence he refused to take his prescribed medication and chose instead to treat his increasingly severe mood swings and panic attacks with alcohol.

He drank himself to death at the age of 42 after 10 difficult, frightening and lonely years.

YMMV
[/anecdote]

Of course his experiences were merely a result of fighting against Judeo-Christian mores and had nothing to do with his altered brain chemistry.

Lifestyle choice. Simply that.

Make no mistake, he would not have got support from the psychiatric clutch. They are quite solidly against supporting natural processes and resolutions, preferring instead a regime of emotional and social suppression.
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Old 26th January 2013, 10:47 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Jonesboy View Post
Even JREF has dark corners that dwarf those he rails against.
trying to find a way to parse that, I can only presume that something is missing between 'corners' and 'that':

"Even JREF has dark corners - in which lurks a sceptic-hating demon who can summon powers - that dwarf those he rails against".

Any other ideas for the missing text?
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Old 26th January 2013, 10:50 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
trying to find a way to parse that, I can only presume that something is missing between 'corners' and 'that':

"Even JREF has dark corners - in which lurks a sceptic-hating demon who can summon powers - that dwarf those he rails against".

Any other ideas for the missing text?
''in which lurk demons who wash their hair in vinegar''
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Old 26th January 2013, 11:03 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
trying to find a way to parse that, I can only presume that something is missing between 'corners' and 'that':

"Even JREF has dark corners - in which lurks a sceptic-hating demon who can summon powers - that dwarf those he rails against".

Any other ideas for the missing text?
Yes. How about " in which lurks an idiotic supernaturalism."

Get it? I am telling you that JREF, and everyone here, is a supernaturalist of the worst kind, hypocritical at worst, gullible at best, skeptic.
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Old 26th January 2013, 11:20 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Jonesboy View Post
Yes. How about " in which lurks an idiotic supernaturalism."

Get it? I am telling you that JREF, and everyone here, is a supernaturalist of the worst kind, hypocritical at worst, gullible at best, skeptic.
*yawn* How about your claim here?
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Old 26th January 2013, 11:31 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Jonesboy View Post
Get it? I am telling you that JREF, and everyone here, is a supernaturalist of the worst kind, hypocritical at worst, gullible at best, skeptic.
Of course, by definition, that includes you.
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Old 26th January 2013, 11:58 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Jonesboy View Post
Yes. How about " in which lurks an idiotic supernaturalism."

Get it? I am telling you that JREF, and everyone here, is a supernaturalist of the worst kind, hypocritical at worst, gullible at best, skeptic.
An evil psychiatrist would call that "projection", and might actually be correct.

.
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Old 26th January 2013, 11:58 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Jonesboy View Post
I think you might profit by attending to your ignorance of what YOU mean by mental illness, for I am absolutely sure that you, or anyone else you would appeal to, could not frame any answer that would be coherent.

Welcome to the dark corner of our century.

JREF has a problem, and I was hoping that someone might have spotted it by now. It is that every generation has its dark corners that can only be illuminated by the next. Even JREF has dark corners that dwarf those he rails against.

And this is one of them.
Lemme "guess" : You're banging a drum against modern medicine because you have a belief that they've misidentified something as illness that you believe should be characterized as something else. Hence, your pretentious post about madness re: art.

You're rather obvious, you know.

Anyway, I have no need to worry about what I think mental illness is. There is a whole academic field that has studied the topic in far more detail than I can ever devote in my entire lifetime, and I can always lean on that knowledge. The real on-point issue is that your statement betrays a severe ignorance as to how modern medical science approaches the subject of psychology. Which, BTW, you haven't addressed yet. You shouldn't shift your burden of understanding onto somebody else like me with ridiculous statements like what you made. Instead, you should understand that when you make bald assertions without support like you did in the OP, the conclusions you draw will be wide open to criticism for the mere reason that they're unsupported. And because of that, people make fun of you. You don't give true argument, you merely state unjustified axioms, and that gets you nowhere among people who'll demand justification for claims. That's what's happened here. You demonstrated ignorance of the topic by bringing up utter irrelevancies in your supposed "critique" of medical psychology, and you futher failed to address the lack of true substance in your further post. That doesn't make you look like you have a real point. It just makes you look like a crank. A pretentious one at that.

So gird yourself. After a while, people like you who demonstrate no willingness to learn or at least be substantive eventually become the butt of mockery. And who can blame this community for that? It's hard to write substantive rebuttals to insubstantial claims. After a while, the mockery is the only act with the solidity to deal with such vaporish posts.
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Old 26th January 2013, 12:03 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Jeff Corey View Post
An evil psychiatrist would call that "projection", and might actually be correct.

.
That presumes the poster actually believes his criticisms of JREF. Frankly, I just think it's blowhardism.
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Old 26th January 2013, 12:16 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Not sure that joke works anymore since nobody under 40 remembers Wings. To be funny it relies on personal experience that the youngsters don't have.

It is similar to how some posters think they can determine a medical model based on their personal limited experience.
I have a suspicion that that was a given for the purposes of the poster. Re: your para the second: why, yes, yes that seems a persistant assumptive of said OP on a great number of topics. Any number of, shall we say, under the bridge OPs from same.
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Old 26th January 2013, 12:19 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
How could you tell he's a doctor without first dissecting him?
Now, now, you are not supposed to use someone's posts in a different thread (he started) to show the error of his ideas in another. Hardly sporting when it is so easy a shot!!!
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