The medical model today

Jonesboy · 25th January 2013, 07:36 AM

In the societies of the West certain experiences are frowned upon. The unlucky person will look to a doctor to get them excised from his or her mental emporium, a dangerous step I think.

Yet in these same societies the experiences and thoughts of poets, artists, bards, and psychics are allowed some freedom from the treatment mandate, and often found acceptable by the public. Madness can come to the door of those who seek solutions in the wrong places. It is not what you ask but who you ask.

However, in some non-Western countries experiences of dying, and other altered states and perceptions are also accepted. In western society these experiences are reclassified en masse into the discourse of pathology whose terms we juggle with today - depression, bipolar, schizo-x, and the like.

The driving forces of these models are cultural, and always religious. Even the medical model of the West is driven, not by science, but by religion and its off-shoots: Science frowns upon any experience that detracts from the armchair domain of experience bequethed to us by our judeo-christian moral history. It is this model that drives the medical model of experience today and drives the promotion of the "mental disorder" which is, ultimately, a social category whose values are founded on judeo-christian materialism.

PixyMisa · 25th January 2013, 07:49 AM

No.

calebprime · 25th January 2013, 08:00 AM

All's right with the world, Bob's your uncle.

Crossbow · 25th January 2013, 08:20 AM

Did you know that Paul McCartney used be in group before 'Wings'?

Doubt · 25th January 2013, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Crossbow

Did you know that Paul McCartney used be in group before 'Wings'?

Not sure that joke works anymore since nobody under 40 remembers Wings. To be funny it relies on personal experience that the youngsters don't have.

It is similar to how some posters think they can determine a medical model based on their personal limited experience.

ElMondoHummus · 25th January 2013, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Even the medical model of the West is driven, not by science, but by religion and its off-shoots...

I'm sorry, but I do not understand how this claim can even be entertained. Plus this:

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

It is this model that drives the medical model of experience today and drives the promotion of the "mental disorder" which is, ultimately, a social category whose values are founded on judeo-christian materialism.

... just betrays an immense ignorance on how mental illnesses are in fact identified, categorized, studied, and treated. It's as if the basic argument is that All Values Flow From Judeo-Christian beliefs, period, and there's so much wrong with the premise - not the least of which is that it's being asserted as a given rather than established through evidence and reason - that there's no reason to even entertain the conclusions drawn from it.

The Don · 25th January 2013, 08:36 AM

[anecdote]

My best friend was diagnosed with Bipolar disorder but challenged the diagnosis and stated instead that it was just that he refused to conform to the mediocrity of so called normal life and society. As a consequence he refused to take his prescribed medication and chose instead to treat his increasingly severe mood swings and panic attacks with alcohol.

He drank himself to death at the age of 42 after 10 difficult, frightening and lonely years.

YMMV
[/anecdote]

Of course his experiences were merely a result of fighting against Judeo-Christian mores and had nothing to do with his altered brain chemistry.

The Don · 25th January 2013, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by Crossbow

Did you know that Paul McCartney used be in group before 'Wings'?

Would Dave Grohl and Nirvana be an alternative or am I once again showing my age ?

Maybe "Did you know Arnold Schwarzenegger used to be a politician ?" for those with really short memories

dafydd · 25th January 2013, 08:56 AM

Did anybody know that Paul McCartney used to be in a group called the Quarrymen?

crhkrebs · 25th January 2013, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

The driving forces of these models are cultural, and always religious. Even the medical model of the West is driven, not by science, but by religion and its off-shoots: Science frowns upon any experience that detracts from the armchair domain of experience bequethed to us by our judeo-christian moral history. It is this model that drives the medical model of experience today and drives the promotion of the "mental disorder" which is, ultimately, a social category whose values are founded on judeo-christian materialism.

I call BS!

Can you give a concrete example that corroborates the statement above? Please indicate clearly how your example unambigously shows how modern Western medicine is not driven by evidence based scientific methodology, but rather by religion.

I won't be holding my breath.

crhkrebs · 25th January 2013, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Did anybody know that Paul McCartney used to be in a group called the Quarrymen?

Or how about "Johnny and the Moondogs"?

Sideroxylon · 25th January 2013, 09:20 AM

The same straw man you were beating up in your "Nutcases and stigmatisation" thread.
Let's put this out there again:

Quote:

“All psychiatric diagnoses occur within a cultural context,” said Jack Drescher, a member of the APA subcommittee working on the revision. “We know there is a whole community of people out there who are not seeking medical attention and live between the two binary categories. We wanted to send the message that the therapist’s job isn’t to pathologize.”

The quote is by APA member Jack Drescher and the context is the recent updated Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders and the move from “Gender Identity Disorder” to “Gender Dysphoria”
http://www.advocate.com/politics/tra...nder-dysphoria

crhkrebs · 25th January 2013, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

My best friend was diagnosed with Bipolar disorder but challenged the diagnosis and stated instead that it was just that he refused to conform to the mediocrity of so called normal life and society. As a consequence he refused to take his prescribed medication and chose instead to treat his increasingly severe mood swings and panic attacks with alcohol.

He drank himself to death at the age of 42 after 10 difficult, frightening and lonely years.

Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, that is not an uncommon story.

Gord_in_Toronto · 25th January 2013, 10:01 AM

If pigs had wings, they still could not fly. Square-cube_law^WP you know.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 25th January 2013, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

The unlucky person will look to a doctor to get them excised from his or her mental emporium, a dangerous step I think.

How could you tell he's a doctor without first dissecting him?

Dancing David · 25th January 2013, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by PixyMisa

No.

ditto

Dancing David · 25th January 2013, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Did anybody know that Paul McCartney used to be in a group called the Quarrymen?

And Eric Clapton was in lots of bands, like the Blues Breakers.

John Jones · 25th January 2013, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

In the societies of the West certain experiences are frowned upon. The unlucky person will look to a doctor to get them excised from his or her mental emporium, a dangerous step I think.

Yet in these same societies the experiences and thoughts of poets, artists, bards, and psychics are allowed some freedom from the treatment mandate, and often found acceptable by the public. Madness can come to the door of those who seek solutions in the wrong places. It is not what you ask but who you ask.

However, in some non-Western countries experiences of dying, and other altered states and perceptions are also accepted. In western society these experiences are reclassified en masse into the discourse of pathology whose terms we juggle with today - depression, bipolar, schizo-x, and the like.

The driving forces of these models are cultural, and always religious. Even the medical model of the West is driven, not by science, but by religion and its off-shoots: Science frowns upon any experience that detracts from the armchair domain of experience bequethed to us by our judeo-christian moral history. It is this model that drives the medical model of experience today and drives the promotion of the "mental disorder" which is, ultimately, a social category whose values are founded on judeo-christian materialism.

No. That's not the case.

dafydd · 25th January 2013, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

How could you tell he's a doctor without first dissecting him?

Take a DNA sample and soak it in vinegar.

Gord_in_Toronto · 25th January 2013, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Take a DNA sample and soak it in vinegar.

And how does that prove he's not a worm?

dafydd · 25th January 2013, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

And how does that prove he's not a worm?

You have to pass him one at a time simultaneously through a double slit.

RussDill · 25th January 2013, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Doubt

Not sure that joke works anymore since nobody under 40 remembers Wings. To be funny it relies on personal experience that the youngsters don't have.

What are you talking about, Wings was a great show!

dafydd · 25th January 2013, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Doubt

Not sure that joke works anymore since nobody under 40 remembers Wings.

I'm still trying to forget them.

bigred · 25th January 2013, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by RussDill

What are you talking about, Wings was a great show!

I'm all seriously! I esp. loved the episodes on B-52s and F-104s.

So do y'all prefer chili with beans or without?

Kid Eager · 25th January 2013, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by bigred

I'm all seriously! I esp. loved the episodes on B-52s and F-104s.

So do y'all prefer chili with beans or without?

For me it was the SR-71. Cool factor off the scale.

As it's Australia Day today, with lamingtons please.

Jonesboy · 26th January 2013, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus

I'm sorry, but I do not understand how this claim can even be entertained. Plus this:

... just betrays an immense ignorance on how mental illnesses are in fact identified, categorized, studied, and treated. It's as if the basic argument is that All Values Flow From Judeo-Christian beliefs, period, and there's so much wrong with the premise - not the least of which is that it's being asserted as a given rather than established through evidence and reason - that there's no reason to even entertain the conclusions drawn from it.

I think you might profit by attending to your ignorance of what YOU mean by mental illness, for I am absolutely sure that you, or anyone else you would appeal to, could not frame any answer that would be coherent.

Welcome to the dark corner of our century.

JREF has a problem, and I was hoping that someone might have spotted it by now. It is that every generation has its dark corners that can only be illuminated by the next. Even JREF has dark corners that dwarf those he rails against.

And this is one of them.

Jonesboy · 26th January 2013, 10:39 AM

...

Jonesboy · 26th January 2013, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by crhkrebs

I call BS!

Can you give a concrete example that corroborates the statement above? Please indicate clearly how your example unambigously shows how modern Western medicine is not driven by evidence based scientific methodology, but rather by religion.

I won't be holding my breath.

There is no evidence for mental illness. The reason for this is that it is a social category, and can merit no physical evidence.

So, it is up to the mental illness pundits to say what the evidence is for mental illness. And there is none, not least because there is no coherent definition of the term coming from their camp.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 26th January 2013, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

I think you might profit by attending to your ignorance of what YOU mean by mental illness, for I am absolutely sure that you, or anyone else you would appeal to, could not frame any answer that would be coherent.

Welcome to the dark corner of our century.

JREF has a problem, and I was hoping that someone might have spotted it by now. It is that every generation has its dark corners that can only be illuminated by the next. Even JREF has dark corners that dwarf those he rails against.

And this is one of them.

I'm sure this place would be lit, if only someone could explain the true nature of light to us.

Jonesboy · 26th January 2013, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

[anecdote]

My best friend was diagnosed with Bipolar disorder but challenged the diagnosis and stated instead that it was just that he refused to conform to the mediocrity of so called normal life and society. As a consequence he refused to take his prescribed medication and chose instead to treat his increasingly severe mood swings and panic attacks with alcohol.

He drank himself to death at the age of 42 after 10 difficult, frightening and lonely years.

YMMV
[/anecdote]

Of course his experiences were merely a result of fighting against Judeo-Christian mores and had nothing to do with his altered brain chemistry.

Lifestyle choice. Simply that.

Make no mistake, he would not have got support from the psychiatric clutch. They are quite solidly against supporting natural processes and resolutions, preferring instead a regime of emotional and social suppression.

dlorde · 26th January 2013, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Even JREF has dark corners that dwarf those he rails against.

trying to find a way to parse that, I can only presume that something is missing between 'corners' and 'that':

"Even JREF has dark corners - in which lurks a sceptic-hating demon who can summon powers - that dwarf those he rails against".

Any other ideas for the missing text?

dafydd · 26th January 2013, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by dlorde

trying to find a way to parse that, I can only presume that something is missing between 'corners' and 'that':

"Even JREF has dark corners - in which lurks a sceptic-hating demon who can summon powers - that dwarf those he rails against".

Any other ideas for the missing text?

''in which lurk demons who wash their hair in vinegar''

Jonesboy · 26th January 2013, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by dlorde

trying to find a way to parse that, I can only presume that something is missing between 'corners' and 'that':

"Even JREF has dark corners - in which lurks a sceptic-hating demon who can summon powers - that dwarf those he rails against".

Any other ideas for the missing text?

Yes. How about " in which lurks an idiotic supernaturalism."

Get it? I am telling you that JREF, and everyone here, is a supernaturalist of the worst kind, hypocritical at worst, gullible at best, skeptic.

Sideroxylon · 26th January 2013, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Yes. How about " in which lurks an idiotic supernaturalism."

Get it? I am telling you that JREF, and everyone here, is a supernaturalist of the worst kind, hypocritical at worst, gullible at best, skeptic.

*yawn* How about your claim here?

Squeegee Beckenheim · 26th January 2013, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Get it? I am telling you that JREF, and everyone here, is a supernaturalist of the worst kind, hypocritical at worst, gullible at best, skeptic.

Of course, by definition, that includes you.

Jeff Corey · 26th January 2013, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Yes. How about " in which lurks an idiotic supernaturalism."

Get it? I am telling you that JREF, and everyone here, is a supernaturalist of the worst kind, hypocritical at worst, gullible at best, skeptic.

An evil psychiatrist would call that "projection", and might actually be correct.

.

ElMondoHummus · 26th January 2013, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

I think you might profit by attending to your ignorance of what YOU mean by mental illness, for I am absolutely sure that you, or anyone else you would appeal to, could not frame any answer that would be coherent.

Welcome to the dark corner of our century.

JREF has a problem, and I was hoping that someone might have spotted it by now. It is that every generation has its dark corners that can only be illuminated by the next. Even JREF has dark corners that dwarf those he rails against.

And this is one of them.

Lemme "guess"

: You're banging a drum against modern medicine because you have a belief that they've misidentified something as illness that you believe should be characterized as something else. Hence, your pretentious post about madness re: art.

You're rather obvious, you know.

Anyway, I have no need to worry about what I think mental illness is. There is a whole academic field that has studied the topic in far more detail than I can ever devote in my entire lifetime, and I can always lean on that knowledge. The real on-point issue is that your statement betrays a severe ignorance as to how modern medical science approaches the subject of psychology. Which, BTW, you haven't addressed yet. You shouldn't shift your burden of understanding onto somebody else like me with ridiculous statements like what you made. Instead, you should understand that when you make bald assertions without support like you did in the OP, the conclusions you draw will be wide open to criticism for the mere reason that they're unsupported. And because of that, people make fun of you. You don't give true argument, you merely state unjustified axioms, and that gets you nowhere among people who'll demand justification for claims. That's what's happened here. You demonstrated ignorance of the topic by bringing up utter irrelevancies in your supposed "critique" of medical psychology, and you futher failed to address the lack of true substance in your further post. That doesn't make you look like you have a real point. It just makes you look like a crank. A pretentious one at that.

So gird yourself. After a while, people like you who demonstrate no willingness to learn or at least be substantive eventually become the butt of mockery. And who can blame this community for that? It's hard to write substantive rebuttals to insubstantial claims. After a while, the mockery is the only act with the solidity to deal with such vaporish posts.

ElMondoHummus · 26th January 2013, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff Corey

An evil psychiatrist would call that "projection", and might actually be correct.

.

That presumes the poster actually believes his criticisms of JREF. Frankly, I just think it's blowhardism.

fuelair · 26th January 2013, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Doubt

Not sure that joke works anymore since nobody under 40 remembers Wings. To be funny it relies on personal experience that the youngsters don't have.

It is similar to how some posters think they can determine a medical model based on their personal limited experience.

I have a suspicion that that was a given for the purposes of the poster. Re: your para the second: why, yes, yes that seems a persistant assumptive of said OP on a great number of topics. Any number of, shall we say, under the bridge OPs from same.

fuelair · 26th January 2013, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

How could you tell he's a doctor without first dissecting him?

Now, now, you are not supposed to use someone's posts in a different thread (he started) to show the error of his ideas in another. Hardly sporting when it is so easy a shot!!!

25th January 2013, 07:36 AM	#1
Jonesboy Banned Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,156	The medical model today In the societies of the West certain experiences are frowned upon. The unlucky person will look to a doctor to get them excised from his or her mental emporium, a dangerous step I think. Yet in these same societies the experiences and thoughts of poets, artists, bards, and psychics are allowed some freedom from the treatment mandate, and often found acceptable by the public. Madness can come to the door of those who seek solutions in the wrong places. It is not what you ask but who you ask. However, in some non-Western countries experiences of dying, and other altered states and perceptions are also accepted. In western society these experiences are reclassified en masse into the discourse of pathology whose terms we juggle with today - depression, bipolar, schizo-x, and the like. The driving forces of these models are cultural, and always religious. Even the medical model of the West is driven, not by science, but by religion and its off-shoots: Science frowns upon any experience that detracts from the armchair domain of experience bequethed to us by our judeo-christian moral history. It is this model that drives the medical model of experience today and drives the promotion of the "mental disorder" which is, ultimately, a social category whose values are founded on judeo-christian materialism.
Jonesboy Banned Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,156	Last edited by Jonesboy; 25th January 2013 at 07:41 AM.

25th January 2013, 07:49 AM	#2
PixyMisa Persnickety Insect Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Sunny Munuvia Posts: 14,913	No.
	__________________ Free blogs for skeptics... And everyone else. mee.nu What, in the Holy Name of Gzortch, are you people doing?!?!!? - TGHO

25th January 2013, 08:00 AM	#3
calebprime Somewhat Elitist Parasite Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 7,755	All's right with the world, Bob's your uncle.
	__________________ Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory.

25th January 2013, 08:20 AM	#4
Crossbow Seeking Honesty and Sanity Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 6,294	Did you know that Paul McCartney used be in group before 'Wings'?
	__________________ A man's best friend is his dogma.

25th January 2013, 08:28 AM	#5
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 5,447	Originally Posted by Crossbow Did you know that Paul McCartney used be in group before 'Wings'? Not sure that joke works anymore since nobody under 40 remembers Wings. To be funny it relies on personal experience that the youngsters don't have. It is similar to how some posters think they can determine a medical model based on their personal limited experience.
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 5,447	__________________ Doubt world tour locations: Mostly home for now. No international travel scheduled other than the Galapagos trip in March. Disclaimer: Not a high energy scientist!

25th January 2013, 08:28 AM	#6
ElMondoHummus 0.25 short of being half-witted Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole Posts: 11,945	Originally Posted by Jonesboy Even the medical model of the West is driven, not by science, but by religion and its off-shoots... I'm sorry, but I do not understand how this claim can even be entertained. Plus this: Originally Posted by Jonesboy It is this model that drives the medical model of experience today and drives the promotion of the "mental disorder" which is, ultimately, a social category whose values are founded on judeo-christian materialism. ... just betrays an immense ignorance on how mental illnesses are in fact identified, categorized, studied, and treated. It's as if the basic argument is that All Values Flow From Judeo-Christian beliefs, period, and there's so much wrong with the premise - not the least of which is that it's being asserted as a given rather than established through evidence and reason - that there's no reason to even entertain the conclusions drawn from it.
	__________________ must take this very carefully....booze is wise men's drink..... -pillory "... I'm quite willing to have everyone use my rejection of the 9/11 conspiracy theory as a basis for assessing my intelligence, judgment, and trustworthiness" -Prof. Ann Althouse

25th January 2013, 08:36 AM	#7
The Don Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cymru Posts: 8,239	[anecdote] My best friend was diagnosed with Bipolar disorder but challenged the diagnosis and stated instead that it was just that he refused to conform to the mediocrity of so called normal life and society. As a consequence he refused to take his prescribed medication and chose instead to treat his increasingly severe mood swings and panic attacks with alcohol. He drank himself to death at the age of 42 after 10 difficult, frightening and lonely years. YMMV [/anecdote] Of course his experiences were merely a result of fighting against Judeo-Christian mores and had nothing to do with his altered brain chemistry.

25th January 2013, 08:39 AM	#8
The Don Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cymru Posts: 8,239	Originally Posted by Crossbow Did you know that Paul McCartney used be in group before 'Wings'? Would Dave Grohl and Nirvana be an alternative or am I once again showing my age ? Maybe "Did you know Arnold Schwarzenegger used to be a politician ?" for those with really short memories

25th January 2013, 08:56 AM	#9
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Did anybody know that Paul McCartney used to be in a group called the Quarrymen?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

25th January 2013, 09:14 AM	#10
crhkrebs Thinker Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Great White Northern Wasteland Posts: 195	Originally Posted by Jonesboy The driving forces of these models are cultural, and always religious. Even the medical model of the West is driven, not by science, but by religion and its off-shoots: Science frowns upon any experience that detracts from the armchair domain of experience bequethed to us by our judeo-christian moral history. It is this model that drives the medical model of experience today and drives the promotion of the "mental disorder" which is, ultimately, a social category whose values are founded on judeo-christian materialism. I call BS! Can you give a concrete example that corroborates the statement above? Please indicate clearly how your example unambigously shows how modern Western medicine is not driven by evidence based scientific methodology, but rather by religion. I won't be holding my breath.
	Last edited by crhkrebs; 25th January 2013 at 09:16 AM.

25th January 2013, 09:20 AM	#11
crhkrebs Thinker Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Great White Northern Wasteland Posts: 195	Originally Posted by dafydd Did anybody know that Paul McCartney used to be in a group called the Quarrymen? Or how about "Johnny and the Moondogs"?

25th January 2013, 09:20 AM	#12
Sideroxylon Gavagai! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Turkey Posts: 10,628	The same straw man you were beating up in your "Nutcases and stigmatisation" thread. Let's put this out there again: Quote: “All psychiatric diagnoses occur within a cultural context,” said Jack Drescher, a member of the APA subcommittee working on the revision. “We know there is a whole community of people out there who are not seeking medical attention and live between the two binary categories. We wanted to send the message that the therapist’s job isn’t to pathologize.” The quote is by APA member Jack Drescher and the context is the recent updated Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders and the move from “Gender Identity Disorder” to “Gender Dysphoria” http://www.advocate.com/politics/tra...nder-dysphoria
	__________________ 'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman Last edited by Sideroxylon; 25th January 2013 at 09:21 AM.

25th January 2013, 09:30 AM	#13
crhkrebs Thinker Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Great White Northern Wasteland Posts: 195	Originally Posted by The Don My best friend was diagnosed with Bipolar disorder but challenged the diagnosis and stated instead that it was just that he refused to conform to the mediocrity of so called normal life and society. As a consequence he refused to take his prescribed medication and chose instead to treat his increasingly severe mood swings and panic attacks with alcohol. He drank himself to death at the age of 42 after 10 difficult, frightening and lonely years. Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, that is not an uncommon story.

25th January 2013, 10:01 AM	#14
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,415	If pigs had wings, they still could not fly. Square-cube_law^WP you know.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

25th January 2013, 10:09 AM	#15
Squeegee Beckenheim Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 4,258	Originally Posted by Jonesboy The unlucky person will look to a doctor to get them excised from his or her mental emporium, a dangerous step I think. How could you tell he's a doctor without first dissecting him?

25th January 2013, 10:26 AM	#16
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,711	Originally Posted by PixyMisa No. ditto
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

25th January 2013, 10:28 AM	#17
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,711	Originally Posted by dafydd Did anybody know that Paul McCartney used to be in a group called the Quarrymen? And Eric Clapton was in lots of bands, like the Blues Breakers.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

25th January 2013, 10:53 AM	#18
John Jones Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 3,718	Originally Posted by Jonesboy In the societies of the West certain experiences are frowned upon. The unlucky person will look to a doctor to get them excised from his or her mental emporium, a dangerous step I think. Yet in these same societies the experiences and thoughts of poets, artists, bards, and psychics are allowed some freedom from the treatment mandate, and often found acceptable by the public. Madness can come to the door of those who seek solutions in the wrong places. It is not what you ask but who you ask. However, in some non-Western countries experiences of dying, and other altered states and perceptions are also accepted. In western society these experiences are reclassified en masse into the discourse of pathology whose terms we juggle with today - depression, bipolar, schizo-x, and the like. The driving forces of these models are cultural, and always religious. Even the medical model of the West is driven, not by science, but by religion and its off-shoots: Science frowns upon any experience that detracts from the armchair domain of experience bequethed to us by our judeo-christian moral history. It is this model that drives the medical model of experience today and drives the promotion of the "mental disorder" which is, ultimately, a social category whose values are founded on judeo-christian materialism. No. That's not the case.
John Jones Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 3,718

25th January 2013, 10:59 AM	#19
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim How could you tell he's a doctor without first dissecting him? Take a DNA sample and soak it in vinegar.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away. Last edited by dafydd; 25th January 2013 at 11:02 AM.

25th January 2013, 12:03 PM	#20
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,415	Originally Posted by dafydd Take a DNA sample and soak it in vinegar. And how does that prove he's not a worm?
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

25th January 2013, 12:16 PM	#21
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto And how does that prove he's not a worm? You have to pass him one at a time simultaneously through a double slit.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

25th January 2013, 03:30 PM	#22
RussDill Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,326	Originally Posted by Doubt Not sure that joke works anymore since nobody under 40 remembers Wings. To be funny it relies on personal experience that the youngsters don't have. What are you talking about, Wings was a great show!
	__________________ The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep

25th January 2013, 04:01 PM	#23
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by Doubt Not sure that joke works anymore since nobody under 40 remembers Wings. I'm still trying to forget them.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

25th January 2013, 04:31 PM	#24
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,537	Originally Posted by RussDill What are you talking about, Wings was a great show! I'm all seriously! I esp. loved the episodes on B-52s and F-104s. So do y'all prefer chili with beans or without?

25th January 2013, 05:14 PM	#25
Kid Eager Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 3,499	Originally Posted by bigred I'm all seriously! I esp. loved the episodes on B-52s and F-104s. So do y'all prefer chili with beans or without? For me it was the SR-71. Cool factor off the scale. As it's Australia Day today, with lamingtons please.
	__________________ What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....

26th January 2013, 10:37 AM	#26
Jonesboy Banned Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,156	Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus I'm sorry, but I do not understand how this claim can even be entertained. Plus this: ... just betrays an immense ignorance on how mental illnesses are in fact identified, categorized, studied, and treated. It's as if the basic argument is that All Values Flow From Judeo-Christian beliefs, period, and there's so much wrong with the premise - not the least of which is that it's being asserted as a given rather than established through evidence and reason - that there's no reason to even entertain the conclusions drawn from it. I think you might profit by attending to your ignorance of what YOU mean by mental illness, for I am absolutely sure that you, or anyone else you would appeal to, could not frame any answer that would be coherent. Welcome to the dark corner of our century. JREF has a problem, and I was hoping that someone might have spotted it by now. It is that every generation has its dark corners that can only be illuminated by the next. Even JREF has dark corners that dwarf those he rails against. And this is one of them.
Jonesboy Banned Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,156

26th January 2013, 10:39 AM	#27
Jonesboy Banned Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,156	...
Jonesboy Banned Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,156

26th January 2013, 10:43 AM	#28
Jonesboy Banned Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,156	Originally Posted by crhkrebs I call BS! Can you give a concrete example that corroborates the statement above? Please indicate clearly how your example unambigously shows how modern Western medicine is not driven by evidence based scientific methodology, but rather by religion. I won't be holding my breath. There is no evidence for mental illness. The reason for this is that it is a social category, and can merit no physical evidence. So, it is up to the mental illness pundits to say what the evidence is for mental illness. And there is none, not least because there is no coherent definition of the term coming from their camp.
Jonesboy Banned Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,156

26th January 2013, 10:45 AM	#29
Squeegee Beckenheim Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 4,258	Originally Posted by Jonesboy I think you might profit by attending to your ignorance of what YOU mean by mental illness, for I am absolutely sure that you, or anyone else you would appeal to, could not frame any answer that would be coherent. Welcome to the dark corner of our century. JREF has a problem, and I was hoping that someone might have spotted it by now. It is that every generation has its dark corners that can only be illuminated by the next. Even JREF has dark corners that dwarf those he rails against. And this is one of them. I'm sure this place would be lit, if only someone could explain the true nature of light to us.

26th January 2013, 10:47 AM	#30
Jonesboy Banned Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,156	Originally Posted by The Don [anecdote] My best friend was diagnosed with Bipolar disorder but challenged the diagnosis and stated instead that it was just that he refused to conform to the mediocrity of so called normal life and society. As a consequence he refused to take his prescribed medication and chose instead to treat his increasingly severe mood swings and panic attacks with alcohol. He drank himself to death at the age of 42 after 10 difficult, frightening and lonely years. YMMV [/anecdote] Of course his experiences were merely a result of fighting against Judeo-Christian mores and had nothing to do with his altered brain chemistry. Lifestyle choice. Simply that. Make no mistake, he would not have got support from the psychiatric clutch. They are quite solidly against supporting natural processes and resolutions, preferring instead a regime of emotional and social suppression.
Jonesboy Banned Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,156

26th January 2013, 10:47 AM	#31
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,646	Originally Posted by Jonesboy Even JREF has dark corners that dwarf those he rails against. trying to find a way to parse that, I can only presume that something is missing between 'corners' and 'that': "Even JREF has dark corners - in which lurks a sceptic-hating demon who can summon powers - that dwarf those he rails against". Any other ideas for the missing text?
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,646	__________________ Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice...

26th January 2013, 10:50 AM	#32
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by dlorde trying to find a way to parse that, I can only presume that something is missing between 'corners' and 'that': "Even JREF has dark corners - in which lurks a sceptic-hating demon who can summon powers - that dwarf those he rails against". Any other ideas for the missing text? ''in which lurk demons who wash their hair in vinegar''
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

26th January 2013, 11:03 AM	#33
Jonesboy Banned Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,156	Originally Posted by dlorde trying to find a way to parse that, I can only presume that something is missing between 'corners' and 'that': "Even JREF has dark corners - in which lurks a sceptic-hating demon who can summon powers - that dwarf those he rails against". Any other ideas for the missing text? Yes. How about " in which lurks an idiotic supernaturalism." Get it? I am telling you that JREF, and everyone here, is a supernaturalist of the worst kind, hypocritical at worst, gullible at best, skeptic.
Jonesboy Banned Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,156

26th January 2013, 11:20 AM	#34
Sideroxylon Gavagai! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Turkey Posts: 10,628	Originally Posted by Jonesboy Yes. How about " in which lurks an idiotic supernaturalism." Get it? I am telling you that JREF, and everyone here, is a supernaturalist of the worst kind, hypocritical at worst, gullible at best, skeptic. yawn How about your claim here?
	__________________ 'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman

26th January 2013, 11:31 AM	#35
Squeegee Beckenheim Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 4,258	Originally Posted by Jonesboy Get it? I am telling you that JREF, and everyone here, is a supernaturalist of the worst kind, hypocritical at worst, gullible at best, skeptic. Of course, by definition, that includes you.