The medical model today

[showmevegas]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Yes. How about " in which lurks an idiotic supernaturalism."

Get it? I am telling you that JREF, and everyone here, is a supernaturalist of the worst kind, hypocritical at worst, gullible at best, skeptic.

Guess I've been told! Never mind the critical thinking now...I'm tellin ya!

[John Jones]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Yes. How about " in which lurks an idiotic supernaturalism."

Get it? I am telling you that JREF, and everyone here, is a supernaturalist of the worst kind, hypocritical at worst, gullible at best, skeptic.

Thanks for presuming to know what I think. It would have been rude to ask.

[RussDill]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

JREF has a problem, and I was hoping that someone might have spotted it by now. It is that every generation has its dark corners that can only be illuminated by the next. Even JREF has dark corners that dwarf those he rails against.

There is no evidence for community problems. You've merely invented a social category without any physical evidence. Posters frown on community problems and try to get them excised, a dangerous step I think.

Yet these same posters try to claim mental problems don't exist. Madness can come to the door of those who seek solutions in the wrong places. It is not what you ask but who you ask.

However, in some places, community problems, altered opinions, logic, are also accepted. For some posters, these communities are reclassified en masse into the discourse of on-line community pathology whose terms we juggle with today.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

I think you might profit by attending to your ignorance of what YOU mean by mental illness, for I am absolutely sure that you, or anyone else you would appeal to, could not frame any answer that would be coherent.

Welcome to the dark corner of our century.

JREF has a problem, and I was hoping that someone might have spotted it by now. It is that every generation has its dark corners that can only be illuminated by the next. Even JREF has dark corners that dwarf those he rails against.

And this is one of them.

This thread a dark corner? Yes, perhaps.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by dafydd

I'm still trying to forget them.

Why? Band on the Run is a fantastic album!

[Kid Eager]

Originally Posted by fuelair

Now, now, you are not supposed to use someone's posts in a different thread (he started) to show the error of his ideas in another. Hardly sporting when it is so easy a shot!!!

Ah, the benefits of "economy of discourse" - making the evidence easier to hide...

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Why? Band on the Run is a fantastic album!

I'll grant you that, but Mull Of Kintyre, Mary Had A Little Lamb and The Frog Chorus? Unforgivable.

[wollery]

Umm, Jonesboy, JREF isn't a person. I think you mean James Randi.

[Kid Eager]

Originally Posted by wollery

Umm, Jonesboy, JREF isn't a person. I think you mean James Randi.

irrelevant and off topic.

Where's your unfounded counter-assertion, hmmmm? (alternatively, you should start a new thread with a whole set of new assertions. This has the advantage of clouding the audit trail...)

[ElMondoHummus]

Originally Posted by bruto

This thread a dark corner? Yes, perhaps.

Well, the budget's running a little thin and CFLs are expensive. Now if they'd just let us buy some incandescent bulbs, we'd be good, but there's that whole power conservation directive to follow...

[mike3]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

In the societies of the West certain experiences are frowned upon. The unlucky person will look to a doctor to get them excised from his or her mental emporium, a dangerous step I think.

Yet in these same societies the experiences and thoughts of poets, artists, bards, and psychics are allowed some freedom from the treatment mandate, and often found acceptable by the public. Madness can come to the door of those who seek solutions in the wrong places. It is not what you ask but who you ask.

However, in some non-Western countries experiences of dying, and other altered states and perceptions are also accepted. In western society these experiences are reclassified en masse into the discourse of pathology whose terms we juggle with today - depression, bipolar, schizo-x, and the like.

The driving forces of these models are cultural, and always religious. Even the medical model of the West is driven, not by science, but by religion and its off-shoots: Science frowns upon any experience that detracts from the armchair domain of experience bequethed to us by our judeo-christian moral history. It is this model that drives the medical model of experience today and drives the promotion of the "mental disorder" which is, ultimately, a social category whose values are founded on judeo-christian materialism.

1. NDEs are not classified as schizo as far as I can tell. "Secular" classifications usually put them in their own box, but nevertheless as a purely brain-generated phenomenon. I don't think it would be said that NDE experiencers are "crazy". Rather, the NDE comes as a result of the brain being forced into a regime ("near death") well outside its "normal operating parameters".

2. The modern medical model used in scientific medicine is driven by science. If it weren't, then we'd be seeing doctors accepting "demonic posession" as a valid diagnosis. They don't, and for good reason. And what on earth is "judeo-christian materialism"? Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

[crhkrebs]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

There is no evidence for mental illness. The reason for this is that it is a social category, and can merit no physical evidence.

So, it is up to the mental illness pundits to say what the evidence is for mental illness. And there is none, not least because there is no coherent definition of the term coming from their camp.

Dodge noted!

You made a spurious claim that modern medicine was based on religion instead of being evidence based. You were asked to clearly show any evidence for this claim.

Then, this was your response. For the record, you were not asked To provide "evidence for mental illness". Is there something wrong with your reading comprehension?

Please answer the questions put to you. That's how discourse works, Jonesy.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by crhkrebs

That's how discourse works, Jonesy.

Discourse? We should be grateful that the greatest polymath on Earth has deigned to speak to us.

[Jonesboy]

Originally Posted by mike3

1. NDEs are not classified as schizo as far as I can tell. "Secular" classifications usually put them in their own box, but nevertheless as a purely brain-generated phenomenon. I don't think it would be said that NDE experiencers are "crazy". Rather, the NDE comes as a result of the brain being forced into a regime ("near death") well outside its "normal operating parameters".

2. The modern medical model used in scientific medicine is driven by science. If it weren't, then we'd be seeing doctors accepting "demonic posession" as a valid diagnosis. They don't, and for good reason. And what on earth is "judeo-christian materialism"? Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

You believe in chemical possession? You said NDE's are "purely brain-generated phenomenon", as if to say other experiences are not.

Judeo-christian materialism brings us Halloween, the mockery of death, the limitation of experiential fauna supplemented by the belief in the existence of only material objects, and its related rejection of altered states that challenge it.

[Jonesboy]

Originally Posted by crhkrebs

Dodge noted!

You made a spurious claim that modern medicine was based on religion instead of being evidence based. You were asked to clearly show any evidence for this claim.

Then, this was your response. For the record, you were not asked To provide "evidence for mental illness". Is there something wrong with your reading comprehension?

Please answer the questions put to you. That's how discourse works, Jonesy.

Hardly a dodge. Without evidence for mental illness, nor even a definition that works, there is only cultural forces left.

[dlorde]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

I am telling you that JREF, and everyone here, is a supernaturalist of the worst kind, hypocritical at worst, gullible at best, skeptic.

Based on what - how does the OP lead you to this stunning insight?

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Judeo-christian materialism brings us Halloween, the mockery of death, the limitation of experiential fauna supplemented by the belief in the existence of only material objects, and its related rejection of altered states that challenge it.

Ah, you're one of those people who believe that mind-altering drugs reveal amazing insights to the nature of the universe, rather than chemically distorting the functioning of your brain, are you?

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

There is no evidence for mental illness. The reason for this is that it is a social category, and can merit no physical evidence.

I am quite sympathetic to some elements of philosophical idealism and suspect we could say that about pretty much all categories of things. It seems just as true about the categories of illness/disorder as it does species, furniture, atoms(?) and house plants. From this skepticism I chose to abandon the metaphysical questions about their levels of reality in the world and take a pragmatist stance.

Quote:

So, it is up to the mental illness pundits to say what the evidence is for mental illness. And there is none, not least because there is no coherent definition of the term coming from their camp.

Listen to biologists and their different ideas about what a species is. Hear the taxonomists argue about what human constructed category bucket something belongs to. When we take up the pragmatic position we just need to ask the question as to whether this category provides utility and in what situations and in what situations does it not.

The category illness defines things we would seek to remedy. And the quote I have provided above shows that mental health professionals recıgnise the harm/lack of utility in pathologizing conditions that people are not seeking treatment for. Though when it comes to mental conditions, sometimes the harm may not be recognized as such by the sufferer.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Judeo-christian materialism brings us Halloween .

Wrong, again.

The origins of the Modern Day Hallowe'en festival are of course, Celtic.

The ancient Irish called the festival "Samhain" (pronounced Sa-Wain), which is now the Gaelic word for the month of November, although in recent times the Hallowe'en is celebrated on October 31st.

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Listen to biologists and their different ideas about what a species is. Hear the taxonomists argue about what human constructed category bucket something belongs to.

I don't think Jonesboy will find this argument persuasive, seeing as how one of his recent threads uses exactly the same argument to say that nobody should study DNA.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

I don't think Jonesboy will find this argument persuasive, seeing as how one of his recent threads uses exactly the same argument to say that nobody should study DNA.

I'll have to check that one out. We have a bit of common ground in skepticism about scientific realism though he seems to be very selective about what concepts he applies it to.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

I don't think Jonesboy will find this argument persuasive, seeing as how one of his recent threads uses exactly the same argument to say that nobody should study DNA.

We should follow his example of never studying anything.

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

I'll have to check that one out. We have a bit of common ground in skepticism about scientific realism though he seems to be very selective about what concepts he applies it to.

Well, the entire thread is predicated on a lie, so it might not be the best example of applied scepticism.

[Jonesboy]

Originally Posted by dafydd

Wrong, again.

The origins of the Modern Day Hallowe'en festival are of course, Celtic.

The ancient Irish called the festival "Samhain" (pronounced Sa-Wain), which is now the Gaelic word for the month of November, although in recent times the Hallowe'en is celebrated on October 31st.

Halloween, is of course, a modern invention. Nobody celebrates samhain but we "celebrate" Halloween with its mockery of celtic lore, mockery of the deceased and its horror kitsch entertainment.
Halloween is thus a modern "celebration" (what exactly are we celebrating btw?) invented by science and christianity, both of which abominate other realms and non-western religion.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Halloween, is of course, a modern invention. Nobody celebrates samhain but we "celebrate" Halloween with its mockery of celtic lore, mockery of the deceased and its horror kitsch entertainment.
Halloween is thus a modern "celebration" (what exactly are we celebrating btw?) invented by science and christianity, both of which abominate other realms and non-western religion.

I don't know about Christianity, but I'm sure science had nothing to do with the "invention" of Hallowe'en.
Where do you get your bizarre ideas?

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

You believe in chemical possession? You said NDE's are "purely brain-generated phenomenon", as if to say other experiences are not.

Judeo-christian materialism brings us Halloween, the mockery of death, the limitation of experiential fauna supplemented by the belief in the existence of only material objects, and its related rejection of altered states that challenge it.

Snicker.

[Jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Jeff Corey

I don't know about Christianity, but I'm sure science had nothing to do with the "invention" of Hallowe'en.
Where do you get your bizarre ideas?

Who do you think promotes Halloween?

It isn't the Celts!

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Halloween, is of course, a modern invention. Nobody celebrates samhain but we "celebrate" Halloween with its mockery of celtic lore, mockery of the deceased and its horror kitsch entertainment.
Halloween is thus a modern "celebration" (what exactly are we celebrating btw?) invented by science and christianity, both of which abominate other realms and non-western religion.

Being alive.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Jeff Corey

Where do you get your bizarre ideas?

Not from the sum of human knowledge, that's for sure.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

Who do you think promotes Halloween?

It isn't the Celts!

So you realize you have zero argument and there is nothing left but to derail with this kind of pointless rubbish.

[Mouldy Cheeses]

as soon as I read this thread...and the OP's stance towards mental health, psychiatrists.... alarm bells rang..

CCHR? (Citizens Commission on Human Rights) I could be wrong, but...

The argument presented is identical to one being currently pushed in several small on-line newspapers.... by members of the CCHR, who pretend they are not associated with an "Alien $ci-fi Cult" (one guess which one..)

Well as they say about a doctor who practices medicine in metal health when sitting in a full bathtub... "Psychiatrist has a silent P ..."

[dafydd]

Which evil cabal promotes St. Valentine's Day?

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Mouldy Cheeses

Well as they say about a doctor who practices medicine in metal health when sitting in a full bathtub... "Psychiatrist has a silent P ..."

So they recycle tired old jokes.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by Mouldy Cheeses

as soon as I read this thread...and the OP's stance towards mental health, psychiatrists.... alarm bells rang..

CCHR? (Citizens Commission on Human Rights) I could be wrong, but...

The argument presented is identical to one being currently pushed in several small on-line newspapers.... by members of the CCHR, who pretend they are not associated with an "Alien $ci-fi Cult" (one guess which one..)

Well as they say about a doctor who practices medicine in metal health when sitting in a full bathtub... "Psychiatrist has a silent P ..."

What a world of wackiness that is. Church of Scientology blames Pearl Harbor, 9/11 on psychiatry

[dafydd]

Him being a $cientologist would explain a lot.

[Captain_Swoop]

I thought of Scientology when I started to read the thread.

[Jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

I thought of Scientology when I started to read the thread.

So lets get this straight. You are saying that people who don't believe in psychiatry know about an alien spaceman? Put me right on that? If you would?

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

So lets get this straight. You are saying that people who don't believe in psychiatry know about an alien spaceman? Put me right on that? If you would?

He didn't say that. Some misguided, brainwashed and badly misinformed people who believe in the cult of $cientology believe in Xenu.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by Jonesboy

So lets get this straight. You are saying that people who don't believe in psychiatry know about an alien spaceman? Put me right on that? If you would?

No.
You beat up on a straw man of psychiatry.
Scientology does same.

You are welcome.

[Paul W]

Originally Posted by dafydd

''in which lurk demons who wash their hair in vinegar''

I had a girlfriend once who washed her hair in vinegar. She said the vinegar made her hair glossy.

I just reckoned that it made her smell like fish and chips.