"Breaking the Silence" - Israeli's unhappy with the results of their actions.

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

The four reservists who created the exhibit said they did so because they wanted Israeli civilians to see what is happening in the Palestinian territories.

One of the four, former Israel Defense Forces soldier Micha Kurtz, said his three years in Hebron changed him for the worse.

"All the soldiers know that nobody knows at home what's really gone on," said Kurtz. "And they have done stuff that they're not happy with and they want people to know about it."

I have said it before, but I'll say it again. A lot of Israeli's are just not happy with what the wedge politics of the extremists have forced them into.

It is not just the Palestinians who suffer from the occupation, it is the Israeli's themselves. By forcing a brutal and dehumanising life on the Palestinians, you become brutal and dehumanising yourself. An act that is just jokes about cockroaches to some, is a life forced on them that they despise to others.

Quote:

"The IDF teaches soldiers to act according to morals, even in complicated situations including moral dilemmas," the army said in a statement.

IDF military police interrogated three of the former soldiers who organized the exhibit, Haaretz reported on its Web site.

"They are trying to frighten us and other soldiers who have expressed readiness to take part in the project," Kurtz told Haaretz.

The army said it was gathering evidence of violence or vandalism against Palestinians, Haaretz reported.

But while those MPs seized a videotape of the soldiers telling their stories, Kurtz said they left behind the dozens of keys he said Israeli soldiers had taken from Palestinians.

The exhibit is being widely reported and debated among Israelis. Many are asking if these are the actions of a few, or the daily reality of a soldier's life.

[a_unique_person]

And the link http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...nce/index.html

Got any examples of 'Palestinians' unhappy with the results of their actions (i.e. terrorism)?

[a_unique_person]

If you think that all Palestinians are just a bunch of terrorists, you are an idiot. Thanks for dodging completely the point of the topic, however.

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
If you think that all Palestinians are just a bunch of terrorists, you are an idiot.

If you think that all Israelis are just a bunch of occupiers, you are an idiot.

[shuize]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
If you think that all Palestinians are just a bunch of terrorists, you are an idiot. Thanks for dodging completely the point of the topic, however.

You're right, of course. Not all Palestinians are terrorists. Past polls only show a 60--70% approval rating for suicide bombings on Isreali targets. That leaves between 30 to 40% who are not supportive of such actions. Link

[zenith-nadir]

Contrary to popular belief almost all Israelis don't like the occupation, they don't like to be in the IDF, they don't like wars. But this is not of Israel's chosing it has been thrust upon them by the likes of Arafat, Nasser, Assad, The House of Saud, Saddam, Iran and a host of other racist murderous xenophobes that send women and children to blow up buses and restaurants with C4 vests strapped to their chests. Or when they are feeling particularly innovative a_u_p these same people just fly planes into buildings or behead infidels....

[a_unique_person]

Israel chooses to occupy the West Bank and Gaza. Look at the internal bun fight that erupted when Sharon thought it made strategic sense to leave Gaza.

Also read the article. You don't appear to have done so. Soldiers are saying that people in Israel are not aware of what is being done in their name.

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by ssibal


If you think that all Israelis are just a bunch of occupiers, you are an idiot.

I clearly stated exactly this at the start of the topic. Many are not happy at their role in the occupation.

[Skeptic]

"Breaking the Silence"???

Where have you been for the last 30 years?

Whether they're right or wrong, demonstrations against "the corrupting and evil occupation" (or words to that effect) have been common in israel for at least that long.

You might as well write, "Breaking the Silence--brave Democrats openly criticized a Republican President last week!".

Once more, you show you know nothing at all about israel except for what www.electronicintifada.com & co. feed you.

[a_unique_person]

You cannot help yourself, and despite what I say again and again, continue making up utter lies for my motivations and thoughts on this matter. One day, you may wake up to yourself. Sadly, I don't think it will ever happen.

[zenith-nadir]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Soldiers are saying that people in Israel are not aware of what is being done in their name.

Israel is 5.5 million people on 7000 square miles of land. There are dozens of free newspapers and media outlets from the extreme right to left. Israelis know what is going on in Gaza and the West Bank in spades, trust me.

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Many are not happy at their role in the occupation.

I don't think there is one single Israeli is happy about the occupation. Had Nasser, Assad, Secretary-General U Thant, King Hussein of Jordan and Arafat not CAUSED the 1967 war we would not be debating it's repercussions 30 years later. Had the Islamofascists not taken over the West Bank and Gaza, thanks to Arafat, there would be no occupation today. Had the Palestinian Authority fulfilled their obligations under ten treaties since 1993 there would be no occupation today.

[Skeptic]

despite what I say again and again, continue making up utter lies for my motivations

The problem, AUP, is that despite what you say again and again, you tend to occassionally slip.

When that happens, you post what you really think--for instance, your claims that the "zionists" control the USA, that israel should just "get used" to being attacked by the Palestinians even if it gives them everything, that a two-year-old killed by a suicide bomber was an "extremist" because he was an "ultra-orthodox jew", that israel--alone of all nations in the world--has no right to exist, etc.

In other words, you weren't careful enough. Despite you loud denials that you hate jews and want israel destroyed, you let your mask slip a bit more often than could be plausiably denied, showing your true face.

[Mycroft]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
You cannot help yourself, and despite what I say again and again, continue making up utter lies for my motivations and thoughts on this matter. One day, you may wake up to yourself. Sadly, I don't think it will ever happen.

Recently you described 400 years of Ottoman rule over Palestine as "occupation" apparently for no other reason than to discredit Zionist negotiations with them. One would think that if you have to go through such mental gymnastics to hold on to your world view, that eventually you would decide it was easier to examine your prejudices and confront them.

[Rob Lister]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mycroft


Recently you described 400 years of Ottoman rule over Palestine as "occupation" apparently for no other reason than to discredit Zionist negotiations with them. One would think that if you have to go through such mental gymnastics to hold on to your world view, that eventually you would decide it was easier to examine your prejudices and confront them.

Wow. Did he really? I'm not doubting it (I've read enough of his posts to have a fair idea of his POV) but if that's true then the European occupation of North America is no different. Perhaps we should all leave.

To where, I'm not sure.

Edit: I'm not sure about the Mexicans. That's a real conundrum racially speaking.

[Mycroft]

Quote:

Originally posted by Rob Lister
Wow. Did he really? I'm not doubting it (I've read enough of his posts to have a fair idea of his POV) but if that's true then the European occupation of North America is no different. Perhaps we should all leave.

Yes, he did really. He called it a "colonial posession" too.

I don't think the comparison with European conquest of North America is apt, though. One difference is that the Ottomans are still there, only we call them "Palestinians" now.

[Skeptic]

Wow. Did he really? I'm not doubting it (I've read enough of his posts to have a fair idea of his POV) but if that's true then the European occupation of North America is no different. Perhaps we should all leave.

...or the European occupation of Australia, which is still 150 years shorter than the Ottoman occupation of Palestine. If one was an occupier, so was the other, right?

Is AUP leaving, or, at least, supporting Aboriginie suicide bombers who are hell-bent on kicking out all the foreign colonialist Europeans from the holy Australian land?

[E.J.Armstrong]

Quote:

originally posted by AUP
It is not just the Palestinians who suffer from the occupation, it is the Israeli's themselves. By forcing a brutal and dehumanising life on the Palestinians, you become brutal and dehumanising yourself. An act that is just jokes about cockroaches to some, is a life forced on them that they despise to others.

In South Africa and in Europe many did not want to see what was being done in their name.

[Mycroft]

Quote:

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
In South Africa and in Europe many did not want to see what was being done in their name.

It would be encouraging if there were similar exhibits by Palestinian-Arabs who didn't want to see the murders of Israelis carried out in their names. Such mutual displays of awareness from both sides would be something peace could be built upon.

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I clearly stated exactly this at the start of the topic. Many are not happy at their role in the occupation.

So can you say the same for the 'Palestinians?' Are many not happy with their role in the terrorism?

[Skeptic]

Quote:

Originally posted by ssibal


So can you say the same for the 'Palestinians?' Are many not happy with their role in the terrorism?

It is repeatedly shown, in poll after poll, that the vast majority of Palestinians support terrorism.

That said, there ARE Palestinians that oppose terrorism. And perhaps there are even more than we think. But it's difficult to find out who and how many, since they tend to be killed off as "traitors" by Arafat's henchmen. About one sixth of Palestinian "victims of the Intifada" of the last four years had been killed by other Palestinians for "treason" of this sort.

You know, Afarat? The man who AUP described as "bending over backwards for peace" (... he forgot to add "in our time")

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
despite what I say again and again, continue making up utter lies for my motivations

The problem, AUP, is that despite what you say again and again, you tend to occassionally slip.

When that happens, you post what you really think--for instance, your claims that the "zionists" control the USA, that israel should just "get used" to being attacked by the Palestinians even if it gives them everything, that a two-year-old killed by a suicide bomber was an "extremist" because he was an "ultra-orthodox jew", that israel--alone of all nations in the world--has no right to exist, etc.

In other words, you weren't careful enough. Despite you loud denials that you hate jews and want israel destroyed, you let your mask slip a bit more often than could be plausiably denied, showing your true face.

You are just a lying, stupid, paranoid, idiotic, ********** up ****wit who lives in a cesspool of ****.

I have not let anything 'slip'. I will ask for, and never get, anything like an apology from you for these utterly baseless, relentless and dishonest lies.

[Jocko]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person


You are just a lying, stupid, paranoid, idiotic, f**ked up f**kwit who lives in a cesspool of s**t.

I have not let anything 'slip'. I will ask for, and never get, anything like an apology from you for these utterly baseless, relentless and dishonest lies.

You just let a whole lotta stuff slip, AUP, including a disc by the look of things. Why not address Mycroft's point? Calling 400 years of Ottoman rule a "colonial occupation" is absurd, wouldn't you agree?

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko


You just let a whole lotta stuff slip, AUP, including a disc by the look of things. Why not address Mycroft's point? Calling 400 years of Ottoman rule a "colonial occupation" is absurd, wouldn't you agree?

I am not going to put up with these 'letting the mask slip' lies anymore.

Ottoman rule was an occupation, it was pretty common in those days of empire. It doesn't mean the Arabs wanted it. When WWI came an it was opportune for the English, they used the Arabs as guerilla troops.

[Jocko]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I am not going to put up with these 'letting the mask slip' lies anymore.

Then stop lying so much. And watch the potty mouth.

Quote:

Ottoman rule was an occupation, it was pretty common in those days of empire. It doesn't mean the Arabs wanted it. When WWI came an it was opportune for the English, they used the Arabs as guerilla troops.

So, is it fair to say that 65 million years of mammals ruling the earth is nothing more than an "occupation" until the dinosaurs rise again? I'm sure they wouldn't care for what we've done with the place either.

Serious question, AUP. How long must an outside culture stay before it's not considered colonial aggression in your book? A century? A millenium? Lemme guess... just slightly shorter than the amount of time the Palestinians have been there, since they stole it from somebody else, am I right?

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic


It is repeatedly shown, in poll after poll, that the vast majority of Palestinians support terrorism.

That said, there ARE Palestinians that oppose terrorism. And perhaps there are even more than we think. But it's difficult to find out who and how many, since they tend to be killed off as "traitors" by Arafat's henchmen. About one sixth of Palestinian "victims of the Intifada" of the last four years had been killed by other Palestinians for "treason" of this sort.

You know, Afarat? The man who AUP described as "bending over backwards for peace" (... he forgot to add "in our time")

If you are going to supply a quote, you have to supply the source.

[Skeptic]

You just let a whole lotta stuff slip, AUP, including a disc by the look of things.

If AUP ever really let slip a disc in his back, he'd blame it on zionism.

[Skeptic]

Serious question, AUP. How long must an outside culture stay before it's not considered colonial aggression in your book? A century? A millenium? Lemme guess... just slightly shorter than the amount of time the Palestinians have been there, since they stole it from somebody else, am I right?

...or exactly two days less than the time between the day the first ship of white convicts arrived in Australia and the day AUP was born...

[Skeptic]

You are just a lying, stupid, paranoid, idiotic, f**ked up f**kwit

You forgot "jew".

who lives in a cesspool of s**t.

...and to think I accused you of being biased against israel...

[Jocko]

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
You are just a lying, stupid, paranoid, idiotic, f**ked up f**kwit


who lives in a cesspool of s**t.

...and to think I accused you of being biased against israel...

Look at the bright side. At least he's offered an honest opinion and shown his stripes... which I guess has to be considered progress.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Quote:

originally posted by Mycroft
It would be encouraging if there were similar exhibits by Palestinian-Arabs who didn't want to see the murders of Israelis carried out in their names. Such mutual displays of awareness from both sides would be something peace could be built upon.

Exhibits are not enough. Stopping murdering innocent children would be a better first step upon which to build peace.

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko


Look at the bright side. At least he's offered an honest opinion and shown his stripes... which I guess has to be considered progress.

What stripes have I shown? Skeptic has shown his. As soon as I demonstrate that Israelis are not happy with where their leaders have taken them, it is time to once again state snide, unsubstantiated insinuations about my having a real agenda, one that I am too gutless to openly state here. F**k you skeptic, you are the gutless one. Try having a look at the article, and what real IDF members are brave enough to state, even though some of them have to do it anonymously. Then start on me with the ad-homs because you don't have the guts to face up to yourself.

[zenith-nadir]

Quote:

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Exhibits are not enough. Stopping murdering innocent children would be a better first step upon which to build peace.

Wow is that ever the pot calling the kettle black. How about stop indoctrinating children to martyr themselves on Israeli soil. How about stop teaching children Israel doesn't really exsist. How about stop teaching children suicide bombers are heros. How about stop teaching children this orthis or this.

[a_unique_person]

The article does not mention it, but one of the pictures is of Palestinian children playing a game. It is a game called "line up for a body search". You wonder what sort of a life they will grow up to.

[zenith-nadir]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The article does not mention it, but one of the pictures is of Palestinian children playing a game. It is a game called "line up for a body search". You wonder what sort of a life they will grow up to.

See a_u_p this is where you miss the boat. It is not Israels fault. Israel did not cause the 1967 war. Israel did not vote for the Palestinian Authority in 1993. Israel doesn't run the Palestinian Authority. Ergo, the Palestinian Authority is RESPONSIBLE for what happens to Palestinians, not Israel.

If the Palestinian Authority sponsors terrorism, a known and proven fact, and if the Palestinian Authority allows it's terrorists to use Palestinian civilian areas for cover and concealment then the Palestinian Authority is the party responsible for making Palestinian civilians the target of retaliation.

You don't blame the government of Tazmania for crime and enforcement of the law in Australia do you?

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
See a_u_p this is where you miss the boat. It is not Israels fault. Israel did not cause the 1967 war. Israel did not vote for the Palestinian Authority in 1993. Israel doesn't run the Palestinian Authority. Ergo, the Palestinian Authority is RESPONSIBLE for what happens to Palestinians, not Israel.

If the Palestinian Authority sponsors terrorism, a known and proven fact, and if the Palestinian Authority allows it's terrorists to use Palestinian civilian areas for cover and concealment then the Palestinian Authority is the party responsible for making Palestinian civilians the target of retaliation.

You don't blame the government of Tazmania for crime and enforcement of the law in Australia do you?

Israel was after a war, they were taunting the Arabs. When is the best time to attack your enemy? When he is in an attacking posture. He is less able to defend himself. Moshe Dayan, as I have said many times before, openly admitted that Israel taunted the Arabs before that war. They were not trying to placate them. Israel was ready for a war of expansion.

There is nowhere on the Gaza strip that is not inhabited. It is one of the most densely populate places on earth.

However, in regards to your first point, why not address the issues raised in this photo exhibition? That is the whole point of this thread. The other points have been gone into many times in other threads. Please resurrect one of those threads, or make a new one.

[Skeptic]

What stripes have I shown?

Well, calling israel a "cesspool of s**t" is, like the case where you claimed a two-year-old killed by a suicide bomber was an "extremist" because he was an "ultra-orthodox jew", is a case of your mask slipping and showing what you REALLY think about israel and jews.

It shows the ugly hate that possesses you, the hate behind all your high-flying rhetoric about "peace" and "justice" and "human rights" in "occupied Palestine".

Actually, in this case, your foul-mouthed, hysterical reply was not a case of your mask slipping, but more accurately a case of your mask slipping, falling to the ground, breaking into a million pieces, and being covered over with dirt.

You were posting in great anger... and when you are really angry, you (like most people) let what you really think slip out, unitentionally.

It is ironic that you let your mask slip off so totally in the very reply where you denied that it ever slipped off at all (or ever existed, for that matter), but then again, there's a certain justice in that, don't you think?

[zenith-nadir]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Israel was after a war, they were taunting the Arabs.

Hahahahaha....that takes the cake a_u_p. You really crack me up.

In 1967 not one Arab state recognized Israel's right to exist, the PLO under Arafat was lauching wave after wave of terror attacks from Jordan, Syria was shelling Israel from the Golan heights, Nasser evicted the United Nations Emergency Force from the Sinai, began re-militarization of the Sinai and closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping. Your characterization of these well-documented historical facts is.... "Israel was after a war, they were taunting the Arabs"....

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Hahahahaha....that takes the cake a_u_p. You really crack me up.

In 1967 not one Arab state recognized Israel's right to exist, the PLO under Arafat was lauching wave after wave of terror attacks from Jordan, Syria was shelling Israel from the Golan heights, Nasser evicted the United Nations Emergency Force from the Sinai, began re-militarization of the Sinai and closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping. Your characterization of these well-documented historical facts is.... "Israel was after a war, they were taunting the Arabs"....

That's right, duck the point of the thread, again. I didn't expect anything else from you. It doesn't come up in your list of '100 hundred answers to any issue on Israel" you consult. Therefore, you don't know how to deal with it.

However, don't argue with me, argue with Moshe Dayan.

http://www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice/1967war.html

Quote:

I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68

Moshe Dayan posthumously speaks out on the Golan Heights

"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.

And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'" The New York Times, May 11, 1997

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
What stripes have I shown?

Well, calling israel a "cesspool of s**t" is,

I was referring to your mind, not Israel, you paranoid little twerp.