Another Responsible Gun Owner Stands His Ground

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Seriously. Do you think that if a bunch of white kids had driven into the guy's driveway he'd still have come out waving a gun and shooting?

Actually, I am fairly sure he would have. I have a nasty suspicion that would not have made much, if any, difference.

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Don't most of them deserve a post?

Remember we are talking human beings here. A Venn diagram that includes YOU.

Maybe somewhere, but not specifically here. Remember the stats: I don't care if gang members kill each other (well, I do - I want them to) or drug dealers, etc. are killed and on fro those who are criminals. I do care when actual people are, yes - but having a thread for each is going to result in most being passed over for other fare. The groups I am directly interested in are limited (though the Sandy Hook children are definitely among them) and those I find regardless of posts here or otherwise.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by fuelair

Actually, I am fairly sure he would have. I have a nasty suspicion that would not have made much, if any, difference.

And yet this church-going good guy was (almost certainly) a legal gun owner. Another very good reason to change gun ownership laws.

[quadraginta]

Originally Posted by WildCat

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Seriously. Do you think that if a bunch of white kids had driven into the guy's driveway he'd still have come out waving a gun and shooting?

You could tell the kid was Colombian by looking at him, or even Hispanic?

And what do you know about the race of the other kids in the car? It's not even mentioned. It may well have been a "bunch of white kids".

eta: I see several of the quoted passengers have Hispanic names, but there's no indication that Sailor knew the race of the people in the car. Kind of hard to determine that at night when the windows are rolled up.

Quoted in the OP;

Quote:

“Basically, what happened is they were looking for one of my brother’s girlfriend’s friends,” says his brother David E. Diaz-Valencia, 23. “The guy came outside and my brother’s girlfriend said he was screaming, ‘Get off my property!’ and he shot into the air. My brother was backing out fast because he was scared and he rolled down the window to say he was sorry and he was not doing anything wrong. Then the guy shot him in his head.”

[emphasis mine]

[maxpower1227]

Anyone who denies that our gun culture, our culture of fear and paranoia about hordes of criminals just lurking in the shadows ready to invade the home of anyone who isn't armed to stop them, is partly responsible for this sort of event, is delusional. I see comments from anti-gun control conservatives all the time about how people who choose not to be armed are making themselves a sitting ducks for criminals and home invaders. The fact that this guy had such a jumpy trigger finger certainly suggests something about his worldview, and it's not unreasonable to think that rhetoric like that constantly issuing from the likes of the NRA is partly to blame.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Quoted in the OP;

[emphasis mine]

And did you see his picture? Is he "brown"?

[Lowpro]

He looks white to me...

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local...driving/nT8rm/

The fact that he was able to shoot him in the head with a .22 once for a kill shot makes me wonder the distance...and am not even sure if any paramedics were called (it seems police were but I don't know if the shooting was reported or just a call on the kids themselves by Sailor).

Edit to add:

So it seems that Sailors first shot Diaz as Diaz had already backed out of the driveway but claims that Diaz had driven towards him to run him down (well that's what the lawyer says anyways) which makes no sense considering the car was at the end of the driveway. Sailors then kept the friends at gunpoint waiting for police. Paramedics were not alerted to Diaz' condition until police were on the scene and Diaz was later transported to the hospital where he died. Sailors it seems didn't even allow the passengers to dial the paramedics. This Sailors guy who apparently is a retired war vet and an upstanding guy in his community decided to crap all over that in favor of shooting a kid in the head and making sure no one else would help him.

But hey again at least the system works. Now that Sailors is probably going to be a criminal he can no longer own a firearm. Too bad owning a gun and having common sense and familiarity with self defense procedures aren't coupled together -_-

[maxpower1227]

Originally Posted by WildCat

And did you see his picture? Is he "brown"?

The racial component is a red herring. The fact that this guy was paranoid enough to pull a gun and start firing without even attempting to TALK to the people in his driveway is bad enough. People aren't naturally that paranoid and fearful. Random home invasions are nowhere near frequent enough to justify even his warning shot.

[quadraginta]

Originally Posted by WildCat

And did you see his picture? Is he "brown"?

You made the statement that the windows were rolled up. I pointed out that the information we have so far explicitly stated the contrary.

Why are you evading that?

Yes, I have seen his photo. It is in this article found through the OP link.

I don't know about "brown", but he could certainly be described as "Latino" or "Hispanic" in appearance, something which people who are prone to think in (negative) stereotypes often view as synonymous with "brown", even if they are unwilling to admit as much when asked directly.

More importantly he would sound like he was, since he had apparently only been in this country for a few months.

Luckily for him he had escaped from the bloody, war-torn hell of Colombia to the safety of America.

Welcome to the U.S.A., amigo.

[Eddie Dane]

Are gun owners required to take some kind of course on using those things in stress situations?

That should be a requirement, I think.
This guy saw danger where there was none and went to use lethal force at once.
Probably freaked as the window rolled down, thinking he was going to get shot at.

This is just my view from Europe, of course.
But it seems that a climate of fear is created, deadly tools are available, but no (regular, recurring) training on how to act in those situations.

This dude should have gotten his gun, turned off the lights, called 911 and wait to see if this was home-invasion or just someone wanting to ask the way.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I doubt it.

First of all, just get together a jury of his peers.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by StankApe

That's not the point. If we were discussing something else, nobody would be allowed to post anecdotes and scream indignation about them as evidence for an agenda.

and the fact remains that gun violence down almost half from the high point of the mid 90's, but media coverage of gun violence is wayyy up (especially lately)

It doesn't improve the situation to try and appeal to emotions ya know.

That gun violence and violence in general is down has nothing to do with gun dealers, makers and owners or present gun control and enforcement. Violence has dropped all over the Western World, it looks like removal of lead from the atmosphere is the reason.

Media coverage has possible gone up because there has been a rise in the number of mass shootings, road deaths are due to overtake gun deaths and the number of gun homicides has not been dropping. (1998, 9.257 gun homicides, 2011 there were 11,101)

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

So the gun problem is not going away and if anything is getting worse and I say the media and non gun owners are right to be complaining about that situation. If more gun owners were also to complain, there would maybe less vitriol directed at them.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by triforcharity

No. They don't. Unless there's something specific you want to discuss, do it. This asinine "oh, someone got shot" "someone died" let's make a new *********** thread game, is *********** stupid.

I'll just start posting a link to DGU's that are legit.

In fact, here's one.

http://www.guns.com/2013/01/29/new-y...rs-with-ar-15/

A student house gets invaded by two guys with a bb guns. One possibility that comes to my mind is student prank, where the home invaders did not know they were going to be threatened with a real AR-15.

The OP example and this example just show how DGUs are fraught with danger of getting it wrong, the difficulty in making the correct judgement in split seconds and later application of hindsight.

My suggestion would be a general DGU thread to discuss whether or not a certain event is a reasonable DGU or not.

[NWO Sentryman]

Originally Posted by Nessie

A student house gets invaded by two guys with a bb guns. One possibility that comes to my mind is student prank, where the home invaders did not know they were going to be threatened with a real AR-15.

The OP example and this example just show how DGUs are fraught with danger of getting it wrong, the difficulty in making the correct judgement in split seconds and later application of hindsight.

My suggestion would be a general DGU thread to discuss whether or not a certain event is a reasonable DGU or not.

AFAIK, doesn't using a fake gun in a crime carry the same sentence as though it were a real gun?

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by maxpower1227

Anyone who denies that our gun culture, our culture of fear and paranoia about hordes of criminals just lurking in the shadows ready to invade the home of anyone who isn't armed to stop them, is partly responsible for this sort of event, is delusional. I see comments from anti-gun control conservatives all the time about how people who choose not to be armed are making themselves a sitting ducks for criminals and home invaders. The fact that this guy had such a jumpy trigger finger certainly suggests something about his worldview, and it's not unreasonable to think that rhetoric like that constantly issuing from the likes of the NRA is partly to blame.

I agree with you and Michael Moore regards the fear. He pointed out the USA's fear in Bowling for Columbine and recently in a TV interview with Piers Morgan. The USA does appear to have whipped itself into a frenzy of fear over crime, tyranny, guns and that is a major reason behind this killing.

In the 1930s the UK government decided self defence was not a reason to have a gun because of this exact kind of difficulty. However, with few guns, gun deaths and an unarmed police, that decision was easy to make in the UK and not possible in the USA. So there needs to be an alternative.

Maybe a solution is if you want a gun for self defence, you have to go on a course. No course, you cannot go for your gun to defend yourself.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman

AFAIK, doesn't using a fake gun in a crime carry the same sentence as though it were a real gun?

In the UK yes.

[DrDave]

Of course he shot him. He was driving a car, far deadlier than a gun.

[The Don]

Was there a swimming pool nearby that could have been pressed into service ?

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by fuelair

The shooter was, in no way, a responsible gun owner -

We know that, now. How could we have known it Friday night? (The shooting was on Saturday.)

This guy really does seem like a pillar of the community. A Vietnam veteran. A church volunteer. (People outside of JREF think that's a good thing.)

He is claiming innocence. Not accident. Innocence. He is saying that the car accelerated toward him, not away, after he fired his warning shot into the air. It was legitimate self defense. I'm pretty sure that claim can be checked out. There are skid marks on the driveway. He held the other occumpants of the car at gunpoint until the police arrived. He was protecting his family.

At least, that's what he thought. It didn't really occur to him that maybe the driver of the vehicle might behave a little erratically when some dude comes back out with a gun and starts firing.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Lowpro

He's a guy who owned a gun legally (probably) and probably for the purposes of self defense. And now he will be a criminal who can no longer own a gun.

The system works. Instead of ending up as one statistic he ended up as another. Actually they swapped statistics come to think of it...

A responsible gun owner doesn't have the right to leave his house and start a fight with his gun. If he thought he was being robbed he should have called the police and kept himself safe. Leaving that house was not only unsafe it's not even a practical application of defense (Unless by being in the house you are less safe say they're setting it on fire...) by which having his gun at the ready should be called for. This man is just a murderer. He was not a responsible gun owner when he walked out of his door and neither was he a responsible citizen. He was a criminal the moment he walked out that door.

But at least now AFTER the fact we can make sure he doesn't have a gun right?

Look there is nothing irresponsible about it. I mean if they had his neighbors stereo it would be all nice and legal in say texas.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes

"Puglise [lawyer for Sailors, the shooter] said the Sailors family is grief-stricken and is lifting the family of Diaz up in prayer."

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/man-69-...rong-ho/nT8xp/

Why is the shooter's family grief-stricken? They didn't even know the guy.

Because they are a good missionary family like mr Sailors himself. Upstanding citizen.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

We know that, now. How could we have known it Friday night? (The shooting was on Saturday.)

This guy really does seem like a pillar of the community. A Vietnam veteran. A church volunteer. (People outside of JREF think that's a good thing.)

He is claiming innocence. Not accident. Innocence. He is saying that the car accelerated toward him, not away, after he fired his warning shot into the air. It was legitimate self defense. I'm pretty sure that claim can be checked out. There are skid marks on the driveway. He held the other occumpants of the car at gunpoint until the police arrived. He was protecting his family.

At least, that's what he thought. It didn't really occur to him that maybe the driver of the vehicle might behave a little erratically when some dude comes back out with a gun and starts firing.

Perfectly reasonable mistake when threatened by a hispanic gang to mistake forward and backward motion of the car. And I am serious not sarcastic about that.

He was in a high stress sutuation and fired because the car moved. A minor mistake about the dirrection it moved but really how long would other responcible gun owners here wait when a hispanic gang is trying to run them over?

We just have to accept minor accidents like this to preserve our rights to self defense.

[squealpiggy]

This is part of the gun culture in the US, clearly part of the gun culture. Guns are sold on the basis of the plague of armed home invasions that gun lobbies insist is a good reason for possessing an arsenal of weapons in the home and brandishing them at the slightest provocation.

This gentleman is on trial for murder. He may even be convicted of murder. But his victim is a victim of the gun culture, of the irresponsible marketing of murder weapons as being essential to resist the probability, nay, the certainty that you will be the victim of a violent crime in your home.

I think the first thing to do in the face of this tragedy is to demand more responsibility in the marketing of firearms for home defense. I think it's necessary to gather statistic of home invasion events and make them public and prominent so people can be aware that though this may happen to them, it's considerably less likely than they might assume.

Perhaps if more people are aware of the actual risks then we might see a fall in incidents like this, in incidents where a son home unexpectedly is shot in the head by his fearful father, incidents where a toddler gets a gun from a cup holder because his absent minded father assumes that a concealed weapon is necessary to attend a wedding.

It's not the guns, it's the gun culture.

[NWO Sentryman]

As I said before, If I were in charge of US gun laws, here's what I'd do:

1. Institute a mandatory Gun Safety course as part of obtaining a firearms licence, which will cover the following:
a. How to properly handle a gun (I'm thinking of having the option of showing movie scenes on the last day of class and asking what the characters did wrong in handling guns)
b. When it is NOT appropriate to use a gun
c. Safe and secure storage practices
d. The laws around gun ownership

This course can be taught at a gun club or by the local police department.
2. All private sales and transfers have to go through an FFL dealer who can charge a small fee for a background check.
3. Allow the ATF to actually enforce gun laws on the books.
4. Actually go after straw purchasers.

[BStrong]

Originally Posted by triforcharity

I'll agree with the very BASIC premise of this thread, though not the hyperbole and idiotic statements, just like we've seen in may other threads.

The guy doing the shooting, was absolutely wrong. No reasonable fear, victim was driving away, and he shot anyway.

Murder. Plain and simple. Agreed there.

The rest? Ignored.

If the facts of the case are as reported, I agree.

[BStrong]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

We know that, now. How could we have known it Friday night? (The shooting was on Saturday.)

This guy really does seem like a pillar of the community. A Vietnam veteran. A church volunteer. (People outside of JREF think that's a good thing.)

He is claiming innocence. Not accident. Innocence. He is saying that the car accelerated toward him, not away, after he fired his warning shot into the air. It was legitimate self defense. I'm pretty sure that claim can be checked out. There are skid marks on the driveway. He held the other occumpants of the car at gunpoint until the police arrived. He was protecting his family.

At least, that's what he thought. It didn't really occur to him that maybe the driver of the vehicle might behave a little erratically when some dude comes back out with a gun and starts firing.

In professional circles, "Warning Shots" are not a legitimate use of a firearm.

Using voice commands are legitimate, as is retreating and finding cover or concealment, but if you have time to fire a WS, you have time to take other actions to protect yourself.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

.......

We just have to accept minor accidents like this to preserve our rights to self defense.

That depends on how regular such "accidents" are compared to lives saved. We have no where near enough study of how effective a gun is for DGUs compared to unnecessary lives lost.

[sgtbaker]

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Quoted in the OP;

[emphasis mine]

I think the point is, if the windows were rolled down to speak to Sailor, they were then up when they pulled into the driveway. It's just a argument against the racism charge; basically, when he ran outside to confront them, the windows were up so it's likely that he couldn't, at that point, determine the race of the individuals in the car. That's how I was reading it, anyway, I could be wrong.

[NoahFence]

Guns don't kill people!

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

From what I know now, Mr. Sailors is not much different than many of the gun lovers on this forum. I can't help but wonder if prior to today, if Mr. Sailors could have spoken any of the words of gun lovers posting in this thread.

Repeat after me (and Mr. Sailors)....those crazy things gun haters say might happen to us law abiding citizens, will never happen to me.

Many of the gun lovers on this forum would run shooting and screaming at someone backing out of their driveways? Keep stroking that bigotry of yours, but the rest of us will chalk that statement up to the usual ********.

[Eddie Dane]

What are numbers gun deaths/injuries in the US?

How many are:
-murders
-accidental shootings like the OP
-suicides
-accidents
-children playing with guns
-etc

There is so much debate on this subject, but i've never seen what behaviour with guns is causing the most problems.

[remirol]

Just another case of a god-fearin' second amendment respectin' gun owner protectin' HIS DERN PROPPITY with his legal guns, right?

If only he'd had more training! Isn't that one of the latest gunbanger memes? More training! More knowledge! People can be trusted! Really!

ETA: Boy, I see the butthurt among our resident cultists gets bigger with every piece of evidence indicating that people simply shouldn't have guns in the first place. And the excuses get thinner, and thinner, and thinner, and the cognitive dissonance among them gets stronger and stronger.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: this would be hilarious to watch if people weren't having to die to prove the point that people are lazy, careless, and irresponsible, and only a small fraction of them should _ever_ be trusted with lethal weapons.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Polaris

Many of the gun lovers on this forum would run shooting and screaming at someone backing out of their driveways? Keep stroking that bigotry of yours, but the rest of us will chalk that statement up to the usual ********.

Sure what makes them so immune to having difficulty noting minor things like dirrection of motion in a high stress situation.

He was in a high crime area and a car full of hispanic teens pulls into his driveway for no reason, I think many responsible gun owners would grab their gun and walk out side. Then one little mistake when you see a car you are afraid will run you down start to move and who wouldn't shoot?

[remirol]

Originally Posted by maxpower1227

Anyone who denies that our gun culture, our culture of fear and paranoia about hordes of criminals just lurking in the shadows ready to invade the home of anyone who isn't armed to stop them, is partly responsible for this sort of event, is delusional. I see comments from anti-gun control conservatives all the time about how people who choose not to be armed are making themselves a sitting ducks for criminals and home invaders. The fact that this guy had such a jumpy trigger finger certainly suggests something about his worldview, and it's not unreasonable to think that rhetoric like that constantly issuing from the likes of the NRA is partly to blame.

You know the funny part? Most of these gunbangers don't even realize that in a home invasion, if their gun isn't right at hand for them to pick up immediately, they'll just get shot while they're going for it.

I'm not even sure they (the gunbangers) understand how fast things move when something like that happens -- you hear the door get kicked in, BANG, and then within a few seconds there are one-to-several people inside with guns out and either giving orders or just shooting people down. And let's not even think about the case when you're asleep and get woken up by the door-kick -- the odds that they'll even know what's happening are so slight that it isn't even funny.

And somehow a gun will save you from this.



If you're worried about home invasions, your #1 priority needs to be to MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE, because the odds are _always_ heavily in favor of the guy who already has his gun out, and in a home invasion? Guess what, that ain't you.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

What are numbers gun deaths/injuries in the US?

How many are:
-murders
-accidental shootings like the OP
-suicides
-accidents
-children playing with guns
-etc

There is so much debate on this subject, but i've never seen what behaviour with guns is causing the most problems.

Some answers here

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

Suicides and homicides are the biggest killers. Accidents are pretty rare. Youths and guns are a problem. Self defence and gun use is in need of more study.

[squealpiggy]

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

What are numbers gun deaths/injuries in the US?

How many are:
-murders
-accidental shootings like the OP
-suicides
-accidents
-children playing with guns
-etc

There is so much debate on this subject, but i've never seen what behaviour with guns is causing the most problems.

I was looking into this recently. In 2011 the rate of homicide was 4.7 per 100,000 (including all methods). The rate of gun death was 10.3 per 100,000. That means that the rate of death from firearms in 2011 was more than double the total murder rate for the same period.

This means that well over half of gun deaths are not deliberate murders. They're accidents and suicides.

[qayak]

Originally Posted by remirol

If you're worried about home invasions, your #1 priority needs to be to MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE, because the odds are _always_ heavily in favor of the guy who already has his gun out, and in a home invasion? Guess what, that ain't you.

Alarms and better locks are cheaper and more effective than guns.

[NoahFence]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Perfectly reasonable mistake when threatened by a hispanic gang to mistake forward and backward motion of the car. And I am serious not sarcastic about that.

He was in a high stress sutuation and fired because the car moved. A minor mistake about the dirrection it moved but really how long would other responcible gun owners here wait when a hispanic gang is trying to run them over?

We just have to accept minor accidents like this to preserve our rights to self defense.

Missing a ---> <---- ??

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Sure what makes them so immune to having difficulty noting minor things like dirrection of motion in a high stress situation.

He was in a high crime area and a car full of hispanic teens pulls into his driveway for no reason, I think many responsible gun owners would grab their gun and walk out side. Then one little mistake when you see a car you are afraid will run you down start to move and who wouldn't shoot?

Walking outside is where the responsible part ends. Best to call 911 and, if you can, leave. If you can't, stay inside where you narrow your field of fire so you lessen your chances of a stray bullet going into someone else's house. If the guy kicking in the door drops bent double, the rest aren't going to stick around.

This Sailors guy is an idiot.

[qayak]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Sure what makes them so immune to having difficulty noting minor things like dirrection of motion in a high stress situation.

He was in a high crime area and a car full of hispanic teens pulls into his driveway for no reason, I think many responsible gun owners would grab their gun and walk out side. Then one little mistake when you see a car you are afraid will run you down start to move and who wouldn't shoot?

So what you are saying is this murder is justified?