The Australian "custody sisters"

Charlie Wilkes · 20th February 2013, 10:49 PM

I have been following this story ever since I saw this uplifting video...

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/quee...003-26zsg.html

These kids made another stand at the airport, and two of them had to be hauled off a commercial flight.

Why didn't they just shoot them all with tranquilizer darts? It would have been a lot easier.

Their mother and her supporters have a page on Facebook, and I notice they just updated the cover photo with a collage of post cards in which the girls long to be back in Australia...

https://www.facebook.com/BringThe4Si...ationAustralia

But Daddy won in court, so suck it up kids.

Now I see the authorities, in a reflection of their deep concern for the welfare of children, are going to file charges against a newspaper for printing pictures of these kids:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/quee...123-2d6kz.html

What do people in Australia think of this situation?

Magenta · 21st February 2013, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes

I have been following this story ever since I saw this uplifting video...

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/quee...003-26zsg.html

These kids made another stand at the airport, and two of them had to be hauled off a commercial flight.

Why didn't they just shoot them all with tranquilizer darts? It would have been a lot easier.

Their mother and her supporters have a page on Facebook, and I notice they just updated the cover photo with a collage of post cards in which the girls long to be back in Australia...

https://www.facebook.com/BringThe4Si...ationAustralia

But Daddy won in court, so suck it up kids.

Now I see the authorities, in a reflection of their deep concern for the welfare of children, are going to file charges against a newspaper for printing pictures of these kids:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/quee...123-2d6kz.html

What do people in Australia think of this situation?

I thought it was a difficult situation made worse by the mother and the media coverage. There is more here on the law surrounding the case and the outcome.

Wildy · 21st February 2013, 01:30 AM

The media were absolutely disgusting with this story. Especially since they were roped in by their mother's family to circumvent the legal system.

If you're interested, Media Watch had an episode covering the story. I don't know if you can watch the video on the page, but you can read the transcript.

fuelair · 21st February 2013, 02:23 AM

My question in all of these things is not the legal system (too easy to manipulate) but what is best for the kids and (related) what will they do that I might support because of this when they get old enough to do it . (To make this clear as good glass, will the parent who won legally die over it eventually because of what and how it was done.). Don't know, but given the circs that could happen here.

devnull · 21st February 2013, 03:46 AM

kids are easy to manipulate. The fact that they want to stay means nothing.

The father won. They should be in Italy.

Gawdzilla · 21st February 2013, 04:01 AM

If they got out of Australia safely it would be inhumane to send them back.

a_unique_person · 21st February 2013, 04:05 AM

The problem is that the law is that when you have the kids in one country, you can't secretly take them to another country.

A native Dutch woman had a child to an Australian man in Australia. They separated. She just disappeared one day, and he had no idea where she took the child. He searched for years, and found they were secretly in Holland under assumed identities. He went to court, and won the right to get the child back. Now, this Australian man won, because he had the law on his side.

The problem is, that's exactly the same law being used the girls to the country that they were born in. If the mother had chosen to stay in Italy, where they were born, access rights could have been negotiated between the two parents.

It's a difficult problem, and there is no solution that is going to make everyone happy.

Aepervius · 21st February 2013, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes

I have been following this story ever since I saw this uplifting video...

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/quee...003-26zsg.html

These kids made another stand at the airport, and two of them had to be hauled off a commercial flight.

Why didn't they just shoot them all with tranquilizer darts? It would have been a lot easier.

Their mother and her supporters have a page on Facebook, and I notice they just updated the cover photo with a collage of post cards in which the girls long to be back in Australia...

https://www.facebook.com/BringThe4Si...ationAustralia

But Daddy won in court, so suck it up kids.

Now I see the authorities, in a reflection of their deep concern for the welfare of children, are going to file charges against a newspaper for printing pictures of these kids:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/quee...123-2d6kz.html

What do people in Australia think of this situation?

Mother signed an agreement of joint custody
Mother said she was going into holiday with kids
Mother stayed away in Australian
Father asked under hagues agreement to have the kids brought back and custody decided in italy as per law
Mother lost and now custody is to be decided in italy.

Nothing wrong here. the mother should have waited for the custody judgement before going away, otherwise it is akin to international kidnapping.

ponderingturtle · 21st February 2013, 05:29 AM

I think most people in the media agree that kidnapping your kids should be legal or something.

WildCat · 21st February 2013, 05:47 AM

That mother is a horrible woman. Using the kids to get back at the man she chose to marry and had 5 kids with. It's not the kids fault the mother made a bad choice of husband, or has buyer's remorse.

I knew kids growing up who had divorced parents like that, really screwed with their heads as each parent trieds to turn the kids against the other. But none of them were flown to the other side of the world in an attempt to steal them outright.

TragicMonkey · 21st February 2013, 06:13 AM

You can rule in law however you like, but you can't force your kids to love you. Are those girls, literally dragged kicking and screaming, going to appreciate the parent who made that happen? It's going to be a very cold, very rocky relationship for a few years until they're adults and can leave again forever. Is it worth it to win a legal battle but lose the relationship?

ponderingturtle · 21st February 2013, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

You can rule in law however you like, but you can't force your kids to love you. Are those girls, literally dragged kicking and screaming, going to appreciate the parent who made that happen? It's going to be a very cold, very rocky relationship for a few years until they're adults and can leave again forever. Is it worth it to win a legal battle but lose the relationship?

Kids get dragged kicking and screaming to things they then enjoy all the time. When one parent starts kidnapping their kids it is already a messed up situation. I is just surprising to see so much support fir kidnapping.

WildCat · 21st February 2013, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

You can rule in law however you like, but you can't force your kids to love you. Are those girls, literally dragged kicking and screaming, going to appreciate the parent who made that happen? It's going to be a very cold, very rocky relationship for a few years until they're adults and can leave again forever. Is it worth it to win a legal battle but lose the relationship?

For all you know those girls were kicking and screaming because they were being taken from their boyfriends in Australia, not because they don't like the father.

Or maybe the mother has spent the last 2 years turning them against the father when he isn't there to defend himself.

Too many divorced parents see kids as just another weapon to hold over the heads of the former spouse to get revenge, and this woman certainly wasn't thinking about the interests of the kids when she brought them to Australia. She was thinking about herself, and how good it felt screwing over her ex.

TragicMonkey · 21st February 2013, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

For all you know those girls were kicking and screaming because they were being taken from their boyfriends in Australia, not because they don't like the father.

Or maybe the mother has spent the last 2 years turning them against the father when he isn't there to defend himself.

Too many divorced parents see kids as just another weapon to hold over the heads of the former spouse to get revenge, and this woman certainly wasn't thinking about the interests of the kids when she brought them to Australia. She was thinking about herself, and how good it felt screwing over her ex.

My point is that it doesn't matter to the children what the motivations were or the circumstances behind or the history involved. What they know is that they're being dragged away against their wills. Sometimes what's best for your kids isn't what's most just for you, in the eyes of the law or public opinion.

Would you rather your kid live an unhappy life with a good person or a happy life with a bad one?

WildCat · 21st February 2013, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

My point is that it doesn't matter to the children what the motivations were or the circumstances behind or the history involved. What they know is that they're being dragged away against their wills. Sometimes what's best for your kids isn't what's most just for you, in the eyes of the law or public opinion.

Would you rather your kid live an unhappy life with a good person or a happy life with a bad one?

You have no evidence whatsoever as to whether or not the father is a bad parent.

We do know, however, that the mother kidnaped the children and took them to the other side of the world in an attempt to punish the father. She wasn't thinking of the children or their interests when she did this, she was thinking only of herself. She's an evil, horrible woman.

TragicMonkey · 21st February 2013, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

You have no evidence whatsoever as to whether or not the father is a bad parent.

We do know, however, that the mother kidnaped the children and took them to the other side of the world in an attempt to punish the father. She wasn't thinking of the children or their interests when she did this, she was thinking only of herself. She's an evil, horrible woman.

Sigh. I'll try again: it doesn't matter to the children which one, if either, is "good" or "bad". What matters to them is which one they want to be with. You may be the sort of person who would insist they be miserable because you have judged one parent worthy and the other "evil and horrible". I wouldn't. I'd leave the kids with whichever parent they wanted to stay with. Even if they pick the "bad" one.

WildCat · 21st February 2013, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Sigh. I'll try again: it doesn't matter to the children which one, if either, is "good" or "bad". What matters to them is which one they want to be with. You may be the sort of person who would insist they be miserable because you have judged one parent worthy and the other "evil and horrible". I wouldn't. I'd leave the kids with whichever parent they wanted to stay with. Even if they pick the "bad" one.

You have no idea which parent they want to stay with. And you don;t get to kidnap your kid and take them to a foreign country thousands of miles away because you don't want to share custody. And who knows what this horrible woman was doing to try to turn the kids against their father during the last 2 years. This is certainly mot in their best interests, I saw mothers do this to their kids when I was growing up. Constantly telling them the father was a bastard, a liar, a good for nothing low-life in an attempt to turn them against the father.

People like that should never have kids in the first place, but unfortunately we don't force people to get parenting licenses.

Charlie Wilkes · 21st February 2013, 08:42 AM

Fascinating responses.

I suppose the fundamental question here is whether children are in any sense human beings, and the consensus is "no."

WildCat · 21st February 2013, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes

Fascinating responses.

I suppose the fundamental question here is whether children are in any sense human beings, and the consensus is "no."

Of course not, they're weapons to be used against your ex-spouse. And that's the important thing here, making your ex suffer. The kids are just insignificant collateral damage.

ponderingturtle · 21st February 2013, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes

Fascinating responses.

I suppose the fundamental question here is whether children are in any sense human beings, and the consensus is "no."

Not at all. Children don't get to decide what is best for them, why do you think we don't let them vote?

If someone kidnapped your kids and after two years they wanted to stay should the kidnapper get to keep the kids?

BenBurch · 21st February 2013, 09:00 AM

Father is in the right here.

Wildy · 21st February 2013, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Father is in the right here.

This. The whole point of the mother's family getting the media involved is to try and demonise him and get him to basically give up his custodial. They were successful in getting the media to make him look like a bastard but he didn't give up his rights.

Charlie Wilkes · 21st February 2013, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Father is in the right here.

It's too bad his children want nothing more than to get away from him.

TragicMonkey · 21st February 2013, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

You have no idea which parent they want to stay with.

And you don't care. All that matters to you is who is "right", in your judgment of their deeds.

Quote:

And you don;t get to kidnap your kid and take them to a foreign country thousands of miles away because you don't want to share custody. And who knows what this horrible woman was doing to try to turn the kids against their father during the last 2 years. This is certainly mot in their best interests, I saw mothers do this to their kids when I was growing up. Constantly telling them the father was a bastard, a liar, a good for nothing low-life in an attempt to turn them against the father.

You keep telling me I don't know what these people are like, yet you claim insight into this case based on your own experience of other people? Do you not see a problem with that? Not only do you sit in judgment on strangers, but you do so with admitted personal bias.

Quote:

People like that should never have kids in the first place, but unfortunately we don't force people to get parenting licenses.

What's done is done, both in the having of kids and in the bestowal of their affections. No court ruling will change either.

sophia8 · 21st February 2013, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes

It's too bad his children want nothing more than to get away from him.

While the cameras are rolling, their mother is screaming and crying, and the TV audience is lapping up the manipulated and hyped-up drama of it all - yes, they give that impression. Who knows yet what they really feel or think?

TragicMonkey · 21st February 2013, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by sophia8

Who knows yet what they really feel or think?

Presumably they themselves do. They should have a say in their own fate.

brodski · 21st February 2013, 12:13 PM

It's perfectly possible to believe that the mother acted appalingly, that the father is (and should be) in the tight legally, but the situation as it has arisen means that him exercising his legal rights will permanantly ruin his relationship with his daughters and may do them harm. It's an awful situation, but I can't see any way this will end well for everybody. Sometimes some people break the law in such a way that means that natural justice cannot be served. This seems to be one of those cases.

WildCat · 21st February 2013, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

And you don't care. All that matters to you is who is "right", in your judgment of their deeds.

You keep telling me I don't know what these people are like, yet you claim insight into this case based on your own experience of other people? Do you not see a problem with that? Not only do you sit in judgment on strangers, but you do so with admitted personal bias.

What's done is done, both in the having of kids and in the bestowal of their affections. No court ruling will change either.

I know that this evil horrible woman took them to Australia in an attempt to prevent Italian courts from determining custody. At least she didn't kill them so he could never have them, which isn't unheard of with crazy nutjob mothers like this.

TragicMonkey · 21st February 2013, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

I know that this evil horrible woman took them to Australia in an attempt to prevent Italian courts from determining custody.

Well, then, tell those girls to switch off their affections because you don't like their mother.

Quote:

At least she didn't kill them so he could never have them, which isn't unheard of with crazy nutjob mothers like this.

Not even going to bother with this bit. The problem with people like you is that once you decide what the principles are, you leave reality behind.

Sideroxylon · 21st February 2013, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Wildy

The media were absolutely disgusting with this story. Especially since they were roped in by their mother's family to circumvent the legal system.

If you're interested, Media Watch had an episode covering the story. I don't know if you can watch the video on the page, but you can read the transcript.

Thanks, Wildy. Good old ABC is sharing with us abroad.

The news parody Frontline comes to mind here.

ehcks · 21st February 2013, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Presumably they themselves do. They should have a say in their own fate.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

If someone kidnapped your kids and after two years they wanted to stay should the kidnapper get to keep the kids?

^

But then, that's what this whole thing is actually about. By law, this custody case is to be performed in Italy. It will almost certainly include a good number of medical professionals talking to the kids about what they want, and of course trying to get past any of the training by both parents into getting them to say what they want instead of what the kids feel.

BenBurch · 21st February 2013, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes

It's too bad his children want nothing more than to get away from him.

Doesn't matter one iota.

lionking · 21st February 2013, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Presumably they themselves do. They should have a say in their own fate.

I agree with this, notwithstanding the legalities. We're not talking about babies here, and I'm convinced that they will move back to Australia as soon as they are old enough.

lionking · 21st February 2013, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Doesn't matter one iota.

Legally no. Psychologically, probably yes.

Dr. Keith · 21st February 2013, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Presumably they themselves do. They should have a say in their own fate.

Yes and they typically do in the proper court assigned to determine custody. The only parent who has tried the thwart that is the mother when she spirited them away to a foreign country to avoid them having a say in the proper court of jurisdiction.

To decide otherwise would mean that they would not have been able to visit family abroad until after the custody hearing.

The father only allowed them to go to Australia because his attorney told him that the Geneva Convention would allow him to get his kids back if the wife flipped out. If the GC loses its force then these kids never get to visit family in Australia, is that really a better outcome?

All that said, it took way too long. That is hard on the kids.

Charlie Wilkes · 21st February 2013, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by sophia8

While the cameras are rolling, their mother is screaming and crying, and the TV audience is lapping up the manipulated and hyped-up drama of it all - yes, they give that impression. Who knows yet what they really feel or think?

The kids were screaming and crying more than the mother.

Do you think that deep down inside, they really want to be with their father in Italy, and they were only putting on an act?

Kid Eager · 21st February 2013, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes

It's too bad his children want nothing more than to get away from him.

As of now, or when the media hoopla was happening?

Charlie Wilkes · 21st February 2013, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Not at all. Children don't get to decide what is best for them, why do you think we don't let them vote?

If someone kidnapped your kids and after two years they wanted to stay should the kidnapper get to keep the kids?

I don't have any children. I have never wanted them.

But if I did have a child, and he or she were kidnapped by their mother, and after two years the child wanted to stay with their mother rather than come home, I might take a moment to ask myself why that is. And I'm not sure I would be content with glib answers that turn on the premise that children don't know what is best for them.

I can also say with confidence that I would never condone a process that ended with the child being dragged away by the police, kicking and screaming.

I would think, "this is barbaric, it cannot possibly be in the kid's best interest, and the kid will hate me when he/she grows up."

Charlie Wilkes · 21st February 2013, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Kid Eager

As of now, or when the media hoopla was happening?

As of now. They desperately want to return to their mother in Australia.

WildCat · 21st February 2013, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes

As of now. They desperately want to return to their mother in Australia.

How do you know they weren't kicking and screaming because they didn't want to leave their boyfriends? I note it was only the 2 older girls kicking and screaming.

20th February 2013, 10:49 PM	#1
Charlie Wilkes Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,997	The Australian "custody sisters" I have been following this story ever since I saw this uplifting video... http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/quee...003-26zsg.html These kids made another stand at the airport, and two of them had to be hauled off a commercial flight. Why didn't they just shoot them all with tranquilizer darts? It would have been a lot easier. Their mother and her supporters have a page on Facebook, and I notice they just updated the cover photo with a collage of post cards in which the girls long to be back in Australia... https://www.facebook.com/BringThe4Si...ationAustralia But Daddy won in court, so suck it up kids. Now I see the authorities, in a reflection of their deep concern for the welfare of children, are going to file charges against a newspaper for printing pictures of these kids: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/quee...123-2d6kz.html What do people in Australia think of this situation?

21st February 2013, 12:23 AM	#2
Magenta Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,311	Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes I have been following this story ever since I saw this uplifting video... http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/quee...003-26zsg.html These kids made another stand at the airport, and two of them had to be hauled off a commercial flight. Why didn't they just shoot them all with tranquilizer darts? It would have been a lot easier. Their mother and her supporters have a page on Facebook, and I notice they just updated the cover photo with a collage of post cards in which the girls long to be back in Australia... https://www.facebook.com/BringThe4Si...ationAustralia But Daddy won in court, so suck it up kids. Now I see the authorities, in a reflection of their deep concern for the welfare of children, are going to file charges against a newspaper for printing pictures of these kids: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/quee...123-2d6kz.html What do people in Australia think of this situation? I thought it was a difficult situation made worse by the mother and the media coverage. There is more here on the law surrounding the case and the outcome.
	Last edited by Magenta; 21st February 2013 at 12:30 AM. Reason: Substituted better link

21st February 2013, 01:30 AM	#3
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia, not that you'll read the "location" field. Posts: 9,921	The media were absolutely disgusting with this story. Especially since they were roped in by their mother's family to circumvent the legal system. If you're interested, Media Watch had an episode covering the story. I don't know if you can watch the video on the page, but you can read the transcript.
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21st February 2013, 02:23 AM	#4
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,911	My question in all of these things is not the legal system (too easy to manipulate) but what is best for the kids and (related) what will they do that I might support because of this when they get old enough to do it . (To make this clear as good glass, will the parent who won legally die over it eventually because of what and how it was done.). Don't know, but given the circs that could happen here.
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21st February 2013, 03:46 AM	#5
devnull Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 4,532	kids are easy to manipulate. The fact that they want to stay means nothing. The father won. They should be in Italy.
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21st February 2013, 04:01 AM	#6
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,397	If they got out of Australia safely it would be inhumane to send them back.
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21st February 2013, 04:05 AM	#7
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,322	The problem is that the law is that when you have the kids in one country, you can't secretly take them to another country. A native Dutch woman had a child to an Australian man in Australia. They separated. She just disappeared one day, and he had no idea where she took the child. He searched for years, and found they were secretly in Holland under assumed identities. He went to court, and won the right to get the child back. Now, this Australian man won, because he had the law on his side. The problem is, that's exactly the same law being used the girls to the country that they were born in. If the mother had chosen to stay in Italy, where they were born, access rights could have been negotiated between the two parents. It's a difficult problem, and there is no solution that is going to make everyone happy.
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21st February 2013, 05:11 AM	#8
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,741	Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes I have been following this story ever since I saw this uplifting video... http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/quee...003-26zsg.html These kids made another stand at the airport, and two of them had to be hauled off a commercial flight. Why didn't they just shoot them all with tranquilizer darts? It would have been a lot easier. Their mother and her supporters have a page on Facebook, and I notice they just updated the cover photo with a collage of post cards in which the girls long to be back in Australia... https://www.facebook.com/BringThe4Si...ationAustralia But Daddy won in court, so suck it up kids. Now I see the authorities, in a reflection of their deep concern for the welfare of children, are going to file charges against a newspaper for printing pictures of these kids: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/quee...123-2d6kz.html What do people in Australia think of this situation? Mother signed an agreement of joint custody Mother said she was going into holiday with kids Mother stayed away in Australian Father asked under hagues agreement to have the kids brought back and custody decided in italy as per law Mother lost and now custody is to be decided in italy. Nothing wrong here. the mother should have waited for the custody judgement before going away, otherwise it is akin to international kidnapping.
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21st February 2013, 05:29 AM	#9
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,421	Re: The Australian "custody sisters" I think most people in the media agree that kidnapping your kids should be legal or something.
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21st February 2013, 05:47 AM	#10
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,985	That mother is a horrible woman. Using the kids to get back at the man she chose to marry and had 5 kids with. It's not the kids fault the mother made a bad choice of husband, or has buyer's remorse. I knew kids growing up who had divorced parents like that, really screwed with their heads as each parent trieds to turn the kids against the other. But none of them were flown to the other side of the world in an attempt to steal them outright.

21st February 2013, 06:13 AM	#11
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,068	You can rule in law however you like, but you can't force your kids to love you. Are those girls, literally dragged kicking and screaming, going to appreciate the parent who made that happen? It's going to be a very cold, very rocky relationship for a few years until they're adults and can leave again forever. Is it worth it to win a legal battle but lose the relationship?
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21st February 2013, 06:16 AM	#12
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,421	Re: The Australian "custody sisters" Originally Posted by TragicMonkey You can rule in law however you like, but you can't force your kids to love you. Are those girls, literally dragged kicking and screaming, going to appreciate the parent who made that happen? It's going to be a very cold, very rocky relationship for a few years until they're adults and can leave again forever. Is it worth it to win a legal battle but lose the relationship? Kids get dragged kicking and screaming to things they then enjoy all the time. When one parent starts kidnapping their kids it is already a messed up situation. I is just surprising to see so much support fir kidnapping.
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21st February 2013, 06:21 AM	#13
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,985	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey You can rule in law however you like, but you can't force your kids to love you. Are those girls, literally dragged kicking and screaming, going to appreciate the parent who made that happen? It's going to be a very cold, very rocky relationship for a few years until they're adults and can leave again forever. Is it worth it to win a legal battle but lose the relationship? For all you know those girls were kicking and screaming because they were being taken from their boyfriends in Australia, not because they don't like the father. Or maybe the mother has spent the last 2 years turning them against the father when he isn't there to defend himself. Too many divorced parents see kids as just another weapon to hold over the heads of the former spouse to get revenge, and this woman certainly wasn't thinking about the interests of the kids when she brought them to Australia. She was thinking about herself, and how good it felt screwing over her ex.

21st February 2013, 06:27 AM	#14
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,068	Originally Posted by WildCat For all you know those girls were kicking and screaming because they were being taken from their boyfriends in Australia, not because they don't like the father. Or maybe the mother has spent the last 2 years turning them against the father when he isn't there to defend himself. Too many divorced parents see kids as just another weapon to hold over the heads of the former spouse to get revenge, and this woman certainly wasn't thinking about the interests of the kids when she brought them to Australia. She was thinking about herself, and how good it felt screwing over her ex. My point is that it doesn't matter to the children what the motivations were or the circumstances behind or the history involved. What they know is that they're being dragged away against their wills. Sometimes what's best for your kids isn't what's most just for you, in the eyes of the law or public opinion. Would you rather your kid live an unhappy life with a good person or a happy life with a bad one?
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21st February 2013, 06:50 AM	#15
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,985	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey My point is that it doesn't matter to the children what the motivations were or the circumstances behind or the history involved. What they know is that they're being dragged away against their wills. Sometimes what's best for your kids isn't what's most just for you, in the eyes of the law or public opinion. Would you rather your kid live an unhappy life with a good person or a happy life with a bad one? You have no evidence whatsoever as to whether or not the father is a bad parent. We do know, however, that the mother kidnaped the children and took them to the other side of the world in an attempt to punish the father. She wasn't thinking of the children or their interests when she did this, she was thinking only of herself. She's an evil, horrible woman.

21st February 2013, 07:56 AM	#16
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,068	Originally Posted by WildCat You have no evidence whatsoever as to whether or not the father is a bad parent. We do know, however, that the mother kidnaped the children and took them to the other side of the world in an attempt to punish the father. She wasn't thinking of the children or their interests when she did this, she was thinking only of herself. She's an evil, horrible woman. Sigh. I'll try again: it doesn't matter to the children which one, if either, is "good" or "bad". What matters to them is which one they want to be with. You may be the sort of person who would insist they be miserable because you have judged one parent worthy and the other "evil and horrible". I wouldn't. I'd leave the kids with whichever parent they wanted to stay with. Even if they pick the "bad" one.
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21st February 2013, 08:33 AM	#17
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,985	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Sigh. I'll try again: it doesn't matter to the children which one, if either, is "good" or "bad". What matters to them is which one they want to be with. You may be the sort of person who would insist they be miserable because you have judged one parent worthy and the other "evil and horrible". I wouldn't. I'd leave the kids with whichever parent they wanted to stay with. Even if they pick the "bad" one. You have no idea which parent they want to stay with. And you don;t get to kidnap your kid and take them to a foreign country thousands of miles away because you don't want to share custody. And who knows what this horrible woman was doing to try to turn the kids against their father during the last 2 years. This is certainly mot in their best interests, I saw mothers do this to their kids when I was growing up. Constantly telling them the father was a bastard, a liar, a good for nothing low-life in an attempt to turn them against the father. People like that should never have kids in the first place, but unfortunately we don't force people to get parenting licenses.

21st February 2013, 08:42 AM	#18
Charlie Wilkes Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,997	Fascinating responses. I suppose the fundamental question here is whether children are in any sense human beings, and the consensus is "no."

21st February 2013, 08:47 AM	#19
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,985	Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes Fascinating responses. I suppose the fundamental question here is whether children are in any sense human beings, and the consensus is "no." Of course not, they're weapons to be used against your ex-spouse. And that's the important thing here, making your ex suffer. The kids are just insignificant collateral damage.

21st February 2013, 09:00 AM	#21
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,107	Father is in the right here.
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21st February 2013, 09:17 AM	#22
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia, not that you'll read the "location" field. Posts: 9,921	Originally Posted by BenBurch Father is in the right here. This. The whole point of the mother's family getting the media involved is to try and demonise him and get him to basically give up his custodial. They were successful in getting the media to make him look like a bastard but he didn't give up his rights.
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21st February 2013, 11:02 AM	#23
Charlie Wilkes Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,997	Originally Posted by BenBurch Father is in the right here. It's too bad his children want nothing more than to get away from him.

21st February 2013, 11:48 AM	#24
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,068	Originally Posted by WildCat You have no idea which parent they want to stay with. And you don't care. All that matters to you is who is "right", in your judgment of their deeds. Quote: And you don;t get to kidnap your kid and take them to a foreign country thousands of miles away because you don't want to share custody. And who knows what this horrible woman was doing to try to turn the kids against their father during the last 2 years. This is certainly mot in their best interests, I saw mothers do this to their kids when I was growing up. Constantly telling them the father was a bastard, a liar, a good for nothing low-life in an attempt to turn them against the father. You keep telling me I don't know what these people are like, yet you claim insight into this case based on your own experience of other people? Do you not see a problem with that? Not only do you sit in judgment on strangers, but you do so with admitted personal bias. Quote: People like that should never have kids in the first place, but unfortunately we don't force people to get parenting licenses. What's done is done, both in the having of kids and in the bestowal of their affections. No court ruling will change either.
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21st February 2013, 11:54 AM	#25
sophia8 Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: In the dark, dark forest.... Posts: 2,254	Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes It's too bad his children want nothing more than to get away from him. While the cameras are rolling, their mother is screaming and crying, and the TV audience is lapping up the manipulated and hyped-up drama of it all - yes, they give that impression. Who knows yet what they really feel or think?
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21st February 2013, 12:04 PM	#26
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,068	Originally Posted by sophia8 Who knows yet what they really feel or think? Presumably they themselves do. They should have a say in their own fate.
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21st February 2013, 12:13 PM	#27
brodski Tea-Time toad Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 15,074	It's perfectly possible to believe that the mother acted appalingly, that the father is (and should be) in the tight legally, but the situation as it has arisen means that him exercising his legal rights will permanantly ruin his relationship with his daughters and may do them harm. It's an awful situation, but I can't see any way this will end well for everybody. Sometimes some people break the law in such a way that means that natural justice cannot be served. This seems to be one of those cases.
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21st February 2013, 12:13 PM	#28
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,985	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey And you don't care. All that matters to you is who is "right", in your judgment of their deeds. You keep telling me I don't know what these people are like, yet you claim insight into this case based on your own experience of other people? Do you not see a problem with that? Not only do you sit in judgment on strangers, but you do so with admitted personal bias. What's done is done, both in the having of kids and in the bestowal of their affections. No court ruling will change either. I know that this evil horrible woman took them to Australia in an attempt to prevent Italian courts from determining custody. At least she didn't kill them so he could never have them, which isn't unheard of with crazy nutjob mothers like this.

21st February 2013, 12:20 PM	#29
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,068	Originally Posted by WildCat I know that this evil horrible woman took them to Australia in an attempt to prevent Italian courts from determining custody. Well, then, tell those girls to switch off their affections because you don't like their mother. Quote: At least she didn't kill them so he could never have them, which isn't unheard of with crazy nutjob mothers like this. Not even going to bother with this bit. The problem with people like you is that once you decide what the principles are, you leave reality behind.
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21st February 2013, 12:23 PM	#30
Sideroxylon Gavagai! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Turkey Posts: 10,615	Originally Posted by Wildy The media were absolutely disgusting with this story. Especially since they were roped in by their mother's family to circumvent the legal system. If you're interested, Media Watch had an episode covering the story. I don't know if you can watch the video on the page, but you can read the transcript. Thanks, Wildy. Good old ABC is sharing with us abroad. The news parody Frontline comes to mind here.
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21st February 2013, 12:24 PM	#31
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,691	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Presumably they themselves do. They should have a say in their own fate. Originally Posted by ponderingturtle If someone kidnapped your kids and after two years they wanted to stay should the kidnapper get to keep the kids? ^ But then, that's what this whole thing is actually about. By law, this custody case is to be performed in Italy. It will almost certainly include a good number of medical professionals talking to the kids about what they want, and of course trying to get past any of the training by both parents into getting them to say what they want instead of what the kids feel.
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21st February 2013, 12:40 PM	#32
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,107	Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes It's too bad his children want nothing more than to get away from him. Doesn't matter one iota.
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21st February 2013, 12:42 PM	#33
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,649	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Presumably they themselves do. They should have a say in their own fate. I agree with this, notwithstanding the legalities. We're not talking about babies here, and I'm convinced that they will move back to Australia as soon as they are old enough.
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21st February 2013, 12:43 PM	#34
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,649	Originally Posted by BenBurch Doesn't matter one iota. Legally no. Psychologically, probably yes.
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21st February 2013, 12:43 PM	#35
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 3,228	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Presumably they themselves do. They should have a say in their own fate. Yes and they typically do in the proper court assigned to determine custody. The only parent who has tried the thwart that is the mother when she spirited them away to a foreign country to avoid them having a say in the proper court of jurisdiction. To decide otherwise would mean that they would not have been able to visit family abroad until after the custody hearing. The father only allowed them to go to Australia because his attorney told him that the Geneva Convention would allow him to get his kids back if the wife flipped out. If the GC loses its force then these kids never get to visit family in Australia, is that really a better outcome? All that said, it took way too long. That is hard on the kids.
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21st February 2013, 01:28 PM	#36
Charlie Wilkes Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,997	Originally Posted by sophia8 While the cameras are rolling, their mother is screaming and crying, and the TV audience is lapping up the manipulated and hyped-up drama of it all - yes, they give that impression. Who knows yet what they really feel or think? The kids were screaming and crying more than the mother. Do you think that deep down inside, they really want to be with their father in Italy, and they were only putting on an act?