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Tags child custody , human rights , international law

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Old 24th February 2013, 09:02 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I have the impression that many here, when faced with injustice or setbacks, can think of nothing but complaining about unfairness. Life isn't fair. You have to cope with it anyway. Even if you can prove to the world, and get a whole message board to agree with you that you were unfairly treated, that doesn't fix the situation. That's religious thinking, that there's a referee, a judge out there, and if you can prove your case he will fix it for you. There's no god to do that. The law isn't always fast or fair. You have to cope anyway.
Sooo, why does that apply only to the kidnapper? Why not say to the kids, "life isn't fair"... it's the law, your going to Italy? Why does the "life isn't fair" part only apply to one of the victims of the kidnapping?
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:03 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Really? If your mother asked you to commit genocide.... you would?
It seems to be an unhealthy sort of attachment. I can't imagine any situations where I'd feel compelled to abandon any principles, and very few where I'd break the law, for the sake of a filial obligation.
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:06 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
So far all the pro-mother side here can argue is that if the facts were different then the kidnapping was justified.

That's nice, but wy are you defending this kidnapping in this particuilar case?
The other argument is that even though the removal to Australia was wrong, illegal and harmful, you can't turn back the clock and that a traumatic return to Italy will only cause further harm to the children rather than repair the harm whuch has already been caused.
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:07 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Sooo, why does that apply only to the kidnapper? Why not say to the kids, "life isn't fair"... it's the law, your going to Italy? Why does the "life isn't fair" part only apply to one of the victims of the kidnapping?
Beceause the entire process is meant to be about the welfare of the children.
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:10 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
The other argument is that even though the removal to Australia was wrong, illegal and harmful, you can't turn back the clock and that a traumatic return to Italy will only cause further harm to the children rather than repair the harm whuch has already been caused.
So then we're back to the question of any other kidnapper. A complete stranger takes your kids and after two years has them not wanting to see you again. Do you still try to get them back, or do you stop because you think it would just cause them more harm?
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:12 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
That's talking about the return of "a wrongfully removed" child. The removal was still wrongful. It's just that the return may not be necessary.
And yet see how this law is written so as to prevent unjust outcomes?
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:14 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
And yet see how this law is written so as to prevent unjust outcomes?
That's interesting, but irrelevant to the point I was making.
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:15 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by ehcks View Post
So then we're back to the question of any other kidnapper. A complete stranger takes your kids and after two years has them not wanting to see you again. Do you still try to get them back, or do you stop because you think it would just cause them more harm?
Remember that there is still a chance that the Italian courts will decude to award dole custerdoy to the mother, it is unlikely that the mother will be legally prevented from having any future contact with her children. The situation is quite, quite, distinct from othet types of kidnapping.
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:20 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
Remember that there is still a chance that the Italian courts will decude to award dole custerdoy to the mother, it is unlikely that the mother will be legally prevented from having any future contact with her children. The situation is quite, quite, distinct from othet types of kidnapping.
Sure. That's what the court case is for, though the mother certainly reduced her chances with this. But a complete stranger kidnapping kids from an actually abusive home could also win. What matters is the evidence. You can't just let a kidnapper get away with the crime because it might hurt the victims more to take them back.

The mother kidnapped and alienated the children, the father has not been shown to do anything illegal or harmful. Those are the facts we have. The court will get more, but so far, the father looks like he should win.
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Last edited by ehcks; 24th February 2013 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:22 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
The other argument is that even though the removal to Australia was wrong, illegal and harmful, you can't turn back the clock and that a traumatic return to Italy will only cause further harm to the children rather than repair the harm whuch has already been caused.
Sure you can say that, if you're able to see into the future. If that's the case, can you tell me next week's Lotto numbers?
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:24 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
That's interesting, but irrelevant to the point I was making.

Yes, your earlier point was an equivocation being passed off as a syllogism. Logic fails when a premise is faulty.
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:34 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Sure you can say that, if you're able to see into the future. If that's the case, can you tell me next week's Lotto numbers?
Beceause predicting the likely results on children of a highly charged, nasty, protracted and very public custody dispute takes psychic powers, right?
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:35 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by ehcks View Post
Sure. That's what the court case is for, though the mother certainly reduced her chances with this. But a complete stranger kidnapping kids from an actually abusive home could also win. What matters is the evidence. You can't just let a kidnapper get away with the crime because it might hurt the victims more to take them back.

The mother kidnapped and alienated the children, the father has not been shown to do anything illegal or harmful. Those are the facts we have. The court will get more, but so far, the father looks like he should win.
Im pretty sure that a stranger who kidnaps kids is never going to be awarded custody of the kids.
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:35 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by katy_did View Post
I don't know if anyone else has seen the 60 Minutes program on the case? It has interviews with the father and with the mother's family. I just watched it and it's...revealing, let's say.
Thanks for the link. The mother's mother is batsh** crazy.
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:40 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Thanks for the link. The mother's mother is batsh** crazy.
Toxic is the word that came to my mind. What about the threat to tell lies about the husband watching his daughters undress. And the piss weak story she told to support the claim.
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:42 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
Beceause predicting the likely results on children of a highly charged, nasty, protracted and very public custody dispute takes psychic powers, right?
Yes, it actually does, unless you're an unbiased child psychologist involved with the case.
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:43 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Yes, your earlier point was an equivocation being passed off as a syllogism. Logic fails when a premise is faulty.
Well it wasn't MY premise, so I can hardly be blamed for that.
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:48 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
Im pretty sure that a stranger who kidnaps kids is never going to be awarded custody of the kids.
Yes but you're avoiding the question. The argument that the children will feel less stress could as easily apply to non-biologically related kidnappers as well. Where is the difference?

If a rich woman steals a poor woman's child, is there no recourse for the poor woman if the children are poisoned against her and given a "better life"?
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:55 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
Beceause predicting the likely results on children of a highly charged, nasty, protracted and very public custody dispute takes psychic powers, right?
Wow, therer's some serious goalpost moving there!

So now you are claimimng not that this incident at the airport affected the children, but that custody disputes in general do? And what is your solution for that?
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:06 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Wow, therer's some serious goalpost moving there!

So now you are claimimng not that this incident at the airport affected the children, but that custody disputes in general do? And what is your solution for that?
My position on this has not shifted at all. My argument is that if one parent is ramping up the dispute to the point that it is causing psychological harm to the children (as noted by the judge) then the other parent has the choice to be the better parent and sacrifice their happiness in order to protect the interests of their children.

This is nit going to have a happy ending for all concerned, and natural justice cannot be served, so how best to defuse the situation and protect the interests of the children? Given that the prospect if them needing to be taken into foster care in itsly (due to the behaviour of the older girls) has been raised by their father's family, I'm pretty confident that the current situation is not in their best interests.
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:08 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Yes but you're avoiding the question. The argument that the children will feel less stress could as easily apply to non-biologically related kidnappers as well. Where is the difference?

If a rich woman steals a poor woman's child, is there no recourse for the poor woman if the children are poisoned against her and given a "better life"?
You cant see the difference between a person who has joint legal custody (and who will always be a major part of the girls' lives) and a random stranger?
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:10 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
My position on this has not shifted at all. My argument is that if one parent is ramping up the dispute to the point that it is causing psychological harm to the children (as noted by the judge) then the other parent has the choice to be the better parent and sacrifice their happiness in order to protect the interests of their children.

This is nit going to have a happy ending for all concerned, and natural justice cannot be served, so how best to defuse the situation and protect the interests of the children? Given that the prospect if them needing to be taken into foster care in itsly (due to the behaviour of the older girls) has been raised by their father's family, I'm pretty confident that the current situation is not in their best interests.
So in your perfect world the parent willing to cause the most harm to the children automatically gets custody?
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:14 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Toxic is the word that came to my mind. What about the threat to tell lies about the husband watching his daughters undress. And the piss weak story she told to support the claim.
That was something the grandmother said, and the mother flatly repudiated it on camera, in the presence of the grandmother. Her comments were clear. She is not accusing the father of sexual abuse, and she does not think there is any risk of that.
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:15 AM   #384
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And on a related note, it was quite normal in American Indian warfare for one tribe to take the children of another (or even white settlers) after they had killed their parents and raise them as their own. And the children would recover from this, and even be fiercely loyal to their "new" family.

If those kids can get over something like that, these kids can recover from the airport temper tantrum. Why on earth was the mother allowed to be at the airport anyway? I wonder if the scene would have been quite different if she had been elsewhere (like in a jail cell, but that's just me).

Last edited by WildCat; 24th February 2013 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:19 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by ehcks View Post
So then we're back to the question of any other kidnapper. A complete stranger takes your kids and after two years has them not wanting to see you again. Do you still try to get them back, or do you stop because you think it would just cause them more harm?
He didn't bring you back to the question of any other kidnapper. That's pure invention, and if you need it to support your argument, maybe you should think about what that implies.

If you insist on hypotheticals, here's one:

Watch the video at the top of this thread. Then imagine that instead of being dragged off by police officers sworn to uphold the law, the kids were abducted by private agents of the father, and they were now in a place beyond the reach of their mother or the law.

I assume that would alter the perceptions of JREF pundits, but I'm not sure it would be substantially different from the POV of the kids. The essential elements of their experience are that no one cares about their pleas, they have no control over what is happening to them, and they are being forcibly separated from someone they love.
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:19 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
You cant see the difference between a person who has joint legal custody (and who will always be a major part of the girls' lives) and a random stranger?
Certainly I can, and so does the law. But the argument that "it would be easier on the girls to leave them in the care of the person who kidnapped them and alienated them from one parent" seems to simply hinge more on a restatement of "easier on the girls who are suffering from Stockholm syndrome" more than the biological connection which they have with the perpetrator.
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:22 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
That was something the grandmother said, and the mother flatly repudiated it on camera, in the presence of the grandmother. Her comments were clear. She is not accusing the father of sexual abuse, and she does not think there is any risk of that.
She made that very clear though she could have been wrong about her assessment. Grandma's lame attempts at supporting the claim told the true story.
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:23 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Again, your emotional involvement makes a sensible debate with you difficult, and your reading comprehension isn't the best either, but let me comment on this. If you have a look at my user profile you will see my age. I've made it clear in many posts that I have a lot of kids and am part of a large family. My work also puts me in direst contact with many mothers. This "clear" comment is as "clear" as many of others you have made, that is, not at all.

The hatred you display for the mother in question is quite telling.
So you may have or soon may have Grand-kids. Are they up for grabs? Can anyone just grab them take them to a good home and keep them... all the abductors have to do is turn them against your children?

..... and for that they get your support?
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:25 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
You cant see the difference between a person who has joint legal custody (and who will always be a major part of the girls' lives) and a random stranger?
Where is the line that legitimizes kidnapping?
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:33 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Where is the line that legitimizes kidnapping?
I have utterly condemned the mothers actions, that doesn't mean that returning the kids to Italy will magically make everything better, nor does it mean that the traumatic return is not harmful to the girls. Are we to sacrifice their wellbeing for the sake of principle?
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:34 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
The other argument is that even though the removal to Australia was wrong, illegal and harmful, you can't turn back the clock and that a traumatic return to Italy will only cause further harm to the children rather than repair the harm whuch has already been caused.
Which is more or less saying "guy/gale you are free to kidnap your kids, if you work on them good enough and attach them strongly enough, you can even get away with it !".

You have no way to know it would be better for the kids to stay there. But at least before the italian court it could be made clear and clean. But hey who cares as long as you can get emotion running high and remove the father its right by a stroke of key.
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:36 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Toxic is the word that came to my mind. What about the threat to tell lies about the husband watching his daughters undress. And the piss weak story she told to support the claim.
I know. The mother seems crazy... the mother's mother is crazy.... and the mother's mother's mother is crazy.

Seriously though... who would rent a car under their son in laws name and then steal the car? That's nuts.
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:37 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
So in your perfect world the parent willing to cause the most harm to the children automatically gets custody?
I don't care about a perfect world, as we will never live in one. I still think that a situation where one parent is prepared to put their kids' happiness above their own is better than a situation where neither is, even if this runs against natural justice.
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:38 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
Beceause predicting the likely results on children of a highly charged, nasty, protracted and very public custody dispute takes psychic powers, right?
No what takes psychic power is the underlying assumption the kids would be better off with the mother, based on the show of emotion.

In fact it could very well be that the mother is not stable emotionally and the father very stable making the childs better off with the father. Sure with a transition period where they might be PO'd off, but later on growing understatnding.

I like that game, I should speculate like you all do on the wellfare of the kids, you can invent any scenario ! Rather than let the italian court decide as proper ! Fun !
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:38 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
That was something the grandmother said, and the mother flatly repudiated it on camera, in the presence of the grandmother. Her comments were clear. She is not accusing the father of sexual abuse, and she does not think there is any risk of that.
I saw that... but it didn't score any points with me. To me, she realized that something so stupid would never stick and only hurt her case and even she would go that far.
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:43 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
My position on this has not shifted at all. My argument is that if one parent is ramping up the dispute to the point that it is causing psychological harm to the children (as noted by the judge) then the other parent has the choice to be the better parent and sacrifice their happiness in order to protect the interests of their children.
"hey my significant other is a bitch emotionally scarring my children, but I am a good guys I will let her go away with it!".

Not.

If I was a father I would rather try to solve the situation than abdict responsibility and let the motehr **** up the kids for good.

Quote:
This is nit going to have a happy ending for all concerned, and natural justice cannot be served, so how best to defuse the situation and protect the interests of the children? Given that the prospect if them needing to be taken into foster care in itsly (due to the behaviour of the older girls) has been raised by their father's family, I'm pretty confident that the current situation is not in their best interests.

Emphasis mine. HOW do you know that the best interrest of the children would not be exactly to be with a law abbiding emotionally stable father?

A little pain now is much better than a great pain later. Which is why even if a child cry at the propesct to give them a vaccination we still force them to get it.

you have no way whatsoever from the media circus to conclude the childs would be better off with the mother.

You are just assuming so.

This is where the claim of psychic power onto your post come from.

Last edited by Aepervius; 24th February 2013 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:45 AM   #397
Caper
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
I have utterly condemned the mothers actions, that doesn't mean that returning the kids to Italy will magically make everything better, nor does it mean that the traumatic return is not harmful to the girls. Are we to sacrifice their wellbeing for the sake of principle?
YES. You can't steal kids.

I cannot go to a third world country and take some parents kid simply because they would be better off....... and lets be clear.... if the child is young and a good western family takes the third world child, they will almost surely be better off........ but it can't be justified.

An argument that you can give a child a better life is not an argument to take a child.
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:47 AM   #398
brodski
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Am I the only one who has read the courts rulings related to psychological impact? They are linked in this thread for those who don't share my psychic powers.
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:47 AM   #399
Aepervius
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
I don't care about a perfect world, as we will never live in one. I still think that a situation where one parent is prepared to put their kids' happiness above their own is better than a situation where neither is, even if this runs against natural justice.
But you are only ASSUMING they are after their kids happnyness. And *anyway* as my example shows above, immediate happyness is not always the best responsibility of a parents ! A good parents will sometimes forgoe immediate happyness for a long term happyness of a kids (vaccination, punishing them for infraction, teaching them discipline, etc...).
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Old 24th February 2013, 10:49 AM   #400
WildCat
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
I don't care about a perfect world, as we will never live in one. I still think that a situation where one parent is prepared to put their kids' happiness above their own is better than a situation where neither is, even if this runs against natural justice.
So you automatically award custody to the parent willing to do the most harm to the children, yes?
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