UNC student faces honor code court for talking about rape

[LTC8K6]

Quote:

“We reported 43 percent more sex offenses than Melinda Manning provided to us,” Strohm said.

“So the facts are these: The Office of University Counsel reported every single sex offense that Melinda Manning sent to us, plus seven additional sex offenses that we gathered through our outreach efforts,” she said.

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/.../51020dceb20ee

[Spindrift]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

When students get sick, do they go to the university's honor doctors?

They go to the University clinic not a hospital or private practice, where things can be misdiagnosed.

Students often depend on their school to provide everything for them and they inherently trust the school and what it does. You go to report a crime and they tell you to go to the honor court and your rapist goes free. You go to the clinic and complain of severe headaches, they give you aspirin and you die of meningitis.

[halides1]

From the huffpost link previously provided: "Gambill says she went to the Dean of Students Office to report an abusive ex-boyfriend for stalking in March 2012. She filed a complaint with the university's Honor Court system in the hopes that it'd be faster and less complicated than the legal system. But when the trial came in May, Gambill said the students and faculty on the Honor Court were focused on why she hadn't done anything to stop the alleged abuse. Gambill recounted one female student on the Honor Court who said that as a woman, she would have broken up with the alleged abuser after the first incident."

[LTC8K6]

Originally Posted by halides1

From the huffpost link previously provided: "Gambill says she went to the Dean of Students Office to report an abusive ex-boyfriend for stalking in March 2012. She filed a complaint with the university's Honor Court system in the hopes that it'd be faster and less complicated than the legal system. But when the trial came in May, Gambill said the students and faculty on the Honor Court were focused on why she hadn't done anything to stop the alleged abuse. Gambill recounted one female student on the Honor Court who said that as a woman, she would have broken up with the alleged abuser after the first incident."

Strange...

A couple of sources seem to agree that she didn't report a rape and that the original Honor Court proceeding was not about a rape.

[halides1]

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

Okay, she seems to be claiming that her boyfriend at the time, sexually abused her over a long period of time.

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/...sexual-assault

The same paper has another article here.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally Posted by tyr_13

I'm sorry, but the problem is that there are people directed to an honor court at all for actual criminal matters. It doesn't matter that they could still go to real courts, the place they are directed to does harm even if they actually file with real courts.

Of course it matters. She's over 18. She's a grown up. Imagine this:

TCS: Someone robbed me in the parking lot.
UNC: Go to the Student Court and file a claim there.
TCS: OK, I'll do that after I visit the police station.

Is there some reason she, an adult, couldn't do that?

Originally Posted by tyr_13

If I go to the school nurse and sends me to a homeopath it doesn't matter that I could still go to a real doctor.

Of course it matters. You're grown up. Imagine this:

Tyr_13: I'm not feeling well.
UNC: Go visit the campus homeopath.
Tyr_13: I'll pass. I'm seeing a real doctor instead.

Is there some reason you, an adult, couldn't do that?

Originally Posted by tyr_13

Or say if I saw something horrible like, I don't know, a man doing something of sexual nature with a boy in the showers and I was directed to go tell an administrator. That I could have gone to the police doesn't alleviate the misdirection and culture of suppression.

You could have, but you didn't. Now you've made it someone else's problem, after the fact. At any point in the process you could have called the police and reported what you saw.

Originally Posted by tyr_13

That the honor court even ever tried to take on real crimes is bad enough, that people were directed to it is worse. That is regardless of other redress that might be available.

We don't even know if there was a "real crime". All we have is allegations. If the girl isn't going to file a police report, the school has to do something. They can't just drop it. This might have been a clumsy effort, but it was still an effort.

[tyr_13]

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

Of course it matters. She's over 18. She's a grown up. Imagine this:

TCS: Someone robbed me in the parking lot.
UNC: Go to the Student Court and file a claim there.
TCS: OK, I'll do that after I visit the police station.

Is there some reason she, an adult, couldn't do that?

That's irrelevant. It's still wrong to be directed to the court.

Quote:

Of course it matters. You're grown up. Imagine this:

Tyr_13: I'm not feeling well.
UNC: Go visit the campus homeopath. expert on your condition.
Tyr_13: I'll pass. I'm seeing a real doctor instead.

Is there some reason you, an adult, couldn't do that?

Fixed that for you. You can't sift the horribleness of being directed wrongly to the other person. If you lie to someone it isn't alright just because the other person shouldn't believe you!

Quote:

You could have, but you didn't. Now you've made it someone else's problem, after the fact. At any point in the process you could have called the police and reported what you saw.

Doesn't make being directed away from the actual police any better. Two wrongs don't make a right. What don't you get about that? How does that make the misdirection any better? It doesn't.

Quote:

We don't even know if there was a "real crime". All we have is allegations. If the girl isn't going to file a police report, the school has to do something. They can't just drop it. This might have been a clumsy effort, but it was still an effort.

Allegation of real crime or real crime isn't actually material here. That there was in existence a court system other than the actual justice system trying to address crimes OR allegations of real crimes is abhorrent. It matters not if any specific case is or isn't substantiated.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally Posted by tyr_13

That's irrelevant. It's still wrong to be directed to the court.

If the victim won't go to the police, where do you direct them? Do you just let it drop? Imagine the headlines "I was raped at UNC and they wouldn't do anything about it! Whaaaaa!!!!".

[tyr_13]

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

If the victim won't go to the police, where do you direct them? Do you just let it drop? Imagine the headlines "I was raped at UNC and they wouldn't do anything about it! Whaaaaa!!!!".

How on earth does that make the honor court attempting it any better? That's right, it doesn't.

That people will complain either way doesn't make the wrong way better. Direct criminal matters to the actual justice system and be damned for doing the right thing.

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

If the victim won't go to the police, where do you direct them? Do you just let it drop? Imagine the headlines "I was raped at UNC and they wouldn't do anything about it! Whaaaaa!!!!".

If the victim won't go to the police then the person they are accusing won't be charged. It's that simple!

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by tyr_13

That there was in existence a court system other than the actual justice system trying to address crimes OR allegations of real crimes is abhorrent. It matters not if any specific case is or isn't substantiated.

How is abhorrent when the woman in this case had/has the opportunity to go to the local police and report a crime? You make it seem like she had no other option than going to the university. She is an adult.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

Technically, if the victim didn't report it to law enforcement, it's not a criminal case. Which is the problem here. All we have is accusations, apparently. That's why I keep saying there's more to this story than is being reported.

That's why the school should have reported it instead of referring it to their pretend court.

I don't blame the girl for being unsure who to report it to, the school however should know better.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by WildCat

That's why the school should have reported it instead of referring it to their pretend court.

I don't blame the girl for being unsure who to report it to, the school however should know better.

^^This^^

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by halides1

From the first link I provided, "And the claims would no longer be heard by the Student Honor Court but by specially trained evaluators." Apparently Gambill, a UNC student, was part of the previous system. link here.

I know, I'm just amazed any person with 2 brain cells to rub together thought the "honor court" was an appropriate venue for such a case.

That they suddenly acquired some common sense after this incident blew up is too little too late.

[Professor Yaffle]

If the university failed to advise her to report it to the police, that is a serious failing. But if she declined to report it and only wanted to report it internally to the university there is nothing much they could do about that. If she feels they didn't investigate it properly, then I think she has a right to speak of her experiences (without mentioning names) and campaign for changes to their procedures.

The university I attended has a student code of conduct that stalking or harassment would have come under and a student conduct committee for investigating such incidents and imposing university sanctions. It seems mainly to be used for non criminal breaches of the code (like plagiarism, cheating in exams etc), but criminal matters are covered:

Quote:

32.8 Where the University believes that a criminal offence may have been committed, it may refer the matter to the police.
32.9 A finding of guilt or an acquittal in a criminal court shall not preclude proceedings under this Code in respect of the same incident.
32.10 The University may, at its discretion, await the outcome of any criminal proceedings before deciding whether to initiate any internal action in respect of alleged criminal misconduct.
32.11 The University may, at its discretion, suspend any internal action under the Code of Student Conduct in respect of alleged criminal misconduct to await the outcome of any criminal proceedings.
48 The University’s Code of Policy and Procedures for Investigating Allegations of Misconduct in Research is currently under review and will be expanded in scope to include students of the University. This Code is available at: www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_204136_en.pdf and may be referred to during Student Conduct proceedings.Code of Student Conduct Gen.55
32.12 Where a student is convicted of an offence, that conviction may be relied upon as evidence in any University conduct proceedings provided that the circumstances leading to that conviction are directly relevant to those proceedings.
32.13 Any sentence or order pronounced by a criminal court shall be taken into account in the imposing of any penalty under this Code.

http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_238...&view=fitH,340

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

If the victim won't go to the police then the person they are accusing won't be charged. It's that simple!

Absolutely.

But it won't keep the victim from whining.

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

If the university failed to advise her to report it to the police, that is a serious failing. But if she declined to report it and only wanted to report it internally to the university there is nothing much they could do about that.

Very correct. She can still report it to the local police, there is nothing stopping her. The question is why she has not. The original reported story was not that she is claiming one rape but rather a long-term period of abuse.

[tyr_13]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

How is abhorrent when the woman in this case had/has the opportunity to go to the local police and report a crime? You make it seem like she had no other option than going to the university. She is an adult.

That's not my argument.

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

But it won't keep the victim from whining.

If someone is a victim of a crime, I say they have the right to whine all they want and bad mouth the criminal from here to South Africa (where everyone it seems is a criminal or a crime victim....but I digress).

This situation is disgusting because this woman is saying she was raped, she didn't report it to the police or go to a hospital or a have a friend or family member report it (if it was to traumatic for her to do it personally). Additionally, if there is a rapist on campus she has a moral obligation to reveal his name in order to protect others. She refuses to.

[Checkmite]

The victim has a right to whine whether she goes to the police or not, actually. There are dozens of instances of now-adults who were abused as children who never turned in their abusers; I wouldn't begrudge them a voice should they finally find it.

If it is true that the system surrounding these "honor courts" (really? ) actually encouraged people to solve criminal issues through them rather than through the police, then that is egregiously wrong all on its own, regardless of any other fact or circumstance in any case.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

If someone is a victim of a crime, I say they have the right to whine all they want and bad mouth the criminal from here to South Africa (where everyone it seems is a criminal or a crime victim....but I digress).

This situation is disgusting because this woman is saying she was raped, she didn't report it to the police or go to a hospital or a have a friend or family member report it (if it was to traumatic for her to do it personally). Additionally, if there is a rapist on campus she has a moral obligation to reveal his name in order to protect others. She refuses to.

True. But she can't refuse to go to the police yet continue to badmouth the alleged criminal from here to South Africa, and then act surprised when the alleged criminal disagrees with his categorization.

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

The victim has a right to whine whether she goes to the police or not, actually. There are dozens of instances of now-adults who were abused as children who never turned in their abusers; I wouldn't begrudge them a voice should they finally find it.

This woman was an adult. In Jerry Sandusky's attempt to get his convictions overturned he tried using the fact that his child victims could not always recall the date (or even year) of their abuse. The judge rejected that argument, basically saying that children don't always take notice of those things. Not the same for adults.

[ANTPogo]

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

If the victim won't go to the police, where do you direct them? Do you just let it drop? Imagine the headlines "I was raped at UNC and they wouldn't do anything about it! Whaaaaa!!!!".

That's when UNC says "this is a matter for the police, since we're not equipped or capable of dealing with serious criminal matters", instead of saying "hey, let's have a fake-trial in an internal non-court that has no legal training or authority or experience whatsoever in handling serious criminal matters".

[Nessie]

Serious crime such as rape in the UK is under the jurisdiction of the High Court. Here any other court, especially some university honour court would not be allowed to deal with a rape.

[Professor Yaffle]

Originally Posted by Nessie

Serious crime such as rape in the UK is under the jurisdiction of the High Court. Here any other court, especially some university honour court would not be allowed to deal with a rape.

They would be able to investigate and impose university discipline over a criminal incident though. They would usually suspend any discipline until an ongoing court case was over, but if there were no court case, they would still be able to investigate whether there was a breach of the university code of conduct. or am I wrong here?

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

That's when UNC says "this is a matter for the police, since we're not equipped or capable of dealing with serious criminal matters", instead of saying "hey, let's have a fake-trial in an internal non-court that has no legal training or authority or experience whatsoever in handling serious criminal matters".

That is what the woman should have said. She is an adult, she still has the opportunity to go to the police....today and make a complaint against this man. She is speaking out about this incident, just go to the police right this very second. She seems more mad at the university than at the man she says raped her.

I'm thinking that if there is a rapist on this campus all efforts should be made to catch, charge and convict this man. I see nothing other than "university bad", no effort at protecting other woman on campus from this guy.

[LTC8K6]

Is there anything more than her word that she was "directed" to the honor court?

Has she said who directed her to the honor court? To me, it makes a big difference who she went to first, and what exactly was said in that conversation.

If I had been robbed on campus by another student, and I was directed to the honor court, I wouldn't go. I'd go to the police and report both the robbery, and the person who directed me not to report a felony to the police.

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by Nessie

Serious crime such as rape in the UK is under the jurisdiction of the High Court. Here any other court, especially some university honour court would not be allowed to deal with a rape.

And the only way that the High Court would be able to proceed is if the victim pressed charges...same as here in the U.S. (though we call it the District Attorney in most jurisdictions).

[ANTPogo]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

She seems more mad at the university than at the man she says raped her.

Yes.

Which is why Scrut's comment about "she can't refuse to go to the police yet continue to badmouth the alleged criminal from here to South Africa, and then act surprised when the alleged criminal disagrees with his categorization" a red herring.

[tyr_13]

'Take these pills, they'll help. What, you have no reason to complain, you shouldn't have believed me!'

'Let me frisk you, I'm a cop! What are you complaining for, you should have known this badge isn't real! I'm a rent-a-cop.'

It doesn't matter at all that there were the actual remedies available the entire time. One party being foolish doesn't make the other party's actions acceptable. I'm not sure why anyone thinks 'being an adult' has one thing to do with it. The other parties are adults too and accountable for their actions which are not dependent on her actions.

[halides1]

Consider the following hypothetical: A woman reports an alleged rape both to the university and to law enforcement. In the latter venue, either the matter is not brought to trial (for lack of evidence perhaps), or it is and the accused is found not guilty. In the former venue the university finds the accused guilty (its far lower standard of proof and procedural...um...peculiarities makes this a reasonable possibility), and the accused is expelled. There is a possibility that another college or university will not accept the accused individual as a student, and even if a school did, there is no guarantee that it will serve his or her needs as well.

[Spindrift]

Originally Posted by halides1

Consider the following hypothetical: A woman reports an alleged rape both to the university and to law enforcement. In the latter venue, either the matter is not brought to trial (for lack of evidence perhaps), or it is and the accused is found not guilty. In the former venue the university finds the accused guilty (its far lower standard of proof and procedural...um...peculiarities makes this a reasonable possibility), and the accused is expelled. There is a possibility that another college or university will not accept the accused individual as a student, and even if a school did, there is no guarantee that it will serve his or her needs as well.

He shouldn't have dated a crazy bitch like that in the first place. It's his fault.

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

This woman was an adult. In Jerry Sandusky's attempt to get his convictions overturned he tried using the fact that his child victims could not always recall the date (or even year) of their abuse. The judge rejected that argument, basically saying that children don't always take notice of those things. Not the same for adults.

The difference is negligible; the result is that a rape victim is essentially being penalized for not filing the proper forms.

And it doesn't change the fact that, regardless of who called or didn't call the police or when, no silly student play-court should be encouraging people to use it rather than calling the police. "Adults should know better" is a different argument and it doesn't make that policy acceptable.

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by tyr_13

It doesn't matter at all that there were the actual remedies available the entire time. One party being foolish doesn't make the other party's actions acceptable. I'm not sure why anyone thinks 'being an adult' has one thing to do with it. The other parties are adults too and accountable for their actions which are not dependent on her actions.

I mentioned her as adult because most legal systems treat children differently than adults. A child not reporting a sexual assault or not remembering the exact date is treated differently than an adult doing the same thing.

In this case the university could be totally, absolutely wrong in regards to how it deals with accusations of sexual assault (or any other on campus crime). That does not change the fact that this woman has still not (to my knowledge) reported this to the local police.

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by halides1

Consider the following hypothetical: A woman reports an alleged rape both to the university and to law enforcement. In the latter venue, either the matter is not brought to trial (for lack of evidence perhaps), or it is and the accused is found not guilty. In the former venue the university finds the accused guilty (its far lower standard of proof and procedural...um...peculiarities makes this a reasonable possibility), and the accused is expelled. There is a possibility that another college or university will not accept the accused individual as a student, and even if a school did, there is no guarantee that it will serve his or her needs as well.

Just another example of the problem of these "campus courts" handling criminal issues, just in the opposite direction. It appears to be a bad idea all around. Let the "campus courts" stick to issues like copying off other students' work.

[tyr_13]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

I mentioned her as adult because most legal systems treat children differently than adults. A child not reporting a sexual assault or not remembering the exact date is treated differently than an adult doing the same thing.

In this case the university could be totally, absolutely wrong in regards to how it deals with accusations of sexual assault (or any other on campus crime). That does not change the fact that this woman has still not (to my knowledge) reported this to the local police.

Correct. One doesn't absolve the other. The university shouldn't have handled it or anything remotely like it the way they used to (if the reporting is accurate) and she should have gone to the actual police.

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

The difference is negligible; the result is that a rape victim is essentially being penalized for not filing the proper forms.

Who said anything about "forms"? How is a rapist supposed to be caught, prosecuted and convicted without police involvement? How is someone a rape victim without a formal charge of rape against another person?

Quote:

And it doesn't change the fact that, regardless of who called or didn't call the police or when, no silly student play-court should be encouraging people to use it rather than calling the police. "Adults should know better" is a different argument and it doesn't make that policy acceptable.

Forget the silly student play-court, she should just sue the university and call the police TODAY. Ask yourself why she hasn't.

[Spindrift]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

Who said anything about "forms"? How is a rapist supposed to be caught, prosecuted and convicted without police involvement? How is someone a rape victim without a formal charge of rape against another person?



Forget the silly student play-court, she should just sue the university and call the police TODAY. Ask yourself why she hasn't.

She is suing the university.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

These University "police" and "courts" are a complete joke. The "courts" need to be abolished by actual law; and it should be made clear that campus police exist only as emergency first responders, and that ALL actual law enforcement matters should be handled by the real, local city police.

My nearest university has sworn officers, any report made to them is a police report.

[LTC8K6]

Is there any evidence at all that she reported a rape?

I'm stuck right there. I want to know who took a rape report and ignored it.

It seems very hard to believe a police officer took a rape report and ignored it. Campus police are held to the same standards as all police.

It also seems very hard to believe that a university official received a rape report and ignored it.

It seems easier to believe that some student group disagreed with her story, but it seems hard to believe she would accept that.