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Old 27th February 2013, 08:23 AM   #1
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Swiss factory shooting leaves several dead

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...rland-shooting

Another country with lax gun controls has a tragedy...
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Old 27th February 2013, 10:35 AM   #2
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It does not matter what gun laws or how many or few guns there are, a massacre is still possible and will sadly happen.

According to the BBC the shooter had worked in the factory for 10 years and there was an incident in the canteen.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21601323

It would be interesting to find out if it was his military issue gun and what was behind the shooting.

The biggest issue with guns in Switzerland is domestic homicides

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21379912

"Forty-three per cent of homicides are domestic related and 90% of those homicides are carried out with guns,"

Interestingly the suicide rate has halved as whilst guns were kept in the home, bullets were not

"But over the last 20 years, now that the majority of soldiers don't have ammunition at home, we have seen a decrease in gun violence and a dramatic decrease in gun-related suicides. Today we see maybe 200 gun suicides per year and it used to be 400, 20 years ago. "
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Old 27th February 2013, 10:50 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...rland-shooting

Another country with lax gun controls has a tragedy...
nononono,

you people used Switzerland as an example of how the terrible USA was at fault because of how the Swiss were so responsible with all of these gun owners. You don't get to turn around and blame the guns.

consistency or bust
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Old 27th February 2013, 10:54 AM   #4
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No guns == no shootings.
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:03 AM   #5
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guns are here, they aren't going anywhere, get used to it.

guns will NEVER be gone in the USA. get used to it.

gun ownership crosses party lines, get used to it

you will never amend the constitution to get rid of guns, get used to it
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:10 AM   #6
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That's nice. Good debating skills. Got anything to say about the actual incident this thread is about?
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:28 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
guns are here, they aren't going anywhere, get used to it.

guns will NEVER be gone in the USA. get used to it.

gun ownership crosses party lines, get used to it

you will never amend the constitution to get rid of guns, get used to it
On the contrary. As soon as someone invents a better weapon, guns will be trashed. In 2056 you really think even the most rabid NRA guy will be holding onto his feeble projectile weapons while the rest of us have phasers and sonic blasters and lightsabers? "Nice rifle, grandpa. Watch me shoot that satellite out of its orbit. Its orbit of Mars. You want me to set up a tin can for you?"
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:34 AM   #8
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You can take my Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator when you pry my cold, dead fingers....
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Old 27th February 2013, 11:59 AM   #9
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I would like to see evidence to back up the claim Switzerland has lax gun controls.
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:05 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I would like to see evidence to back up the claim Switzerland has lax gun controls.
Their cheese is riddled with bullet holes. Clearly things are out of control in Switzerland.
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:10 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I would like to see evidence to back up the claim Switzerland has lax gun controls.
I think it's something that has sort of become truth, because of the way the Swiss militia keep their guns at home.

But that's how a lot of European countries operate. I keep my service weapon at home as well.
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:18 PM   #12
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The U.S., Switzerland or anywhere else in the world.....ask yourself what do 90% of mass shootings (or shootings involving any crimes) have in common?
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:19 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I would like to see evidence to back up the claim Switzerland has lax gun controls.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...in_Switzerland
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:20 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
The U.S., Switzerland or anywhere else in the world.....ask yourself what do 90% of mass shootings (or shootings involving any crimes) have in common?
Criminals?
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:23 PM   #15
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:39 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
The U.S., Switzerland or anywhere else in the world.....ask yourself what do 90% of mass shootings (or shootings involving any crimes) have in common?
Poor people!
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:43 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Gender?
Yes, Darat, you got it. Almost 90% of all gun violence (anywhere in the world) is committed by males. Why is that? It would be useful in the pursuit of stopping gun violence if we address this FACT.
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:56 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Yes, Darat, you got it. Almost 90% of all gun violence (anywhere in the world) is committed by males. Why is that? It would be useful in the pursuit of stopping gun violence if we address this FACT.
Nearly 100% of gun violence is committed by people who are not in successful boy bands.
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Old 27th February 2013, 02:22 PM   #19
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Angry males out for revenge.
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Old 27th February 2013, 02:24 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller View Post
Which part amounts to lax control? If that lot was enforced in the USA there would be far better gun control than there is now.
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Old 27th February 2013, 02:26 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Angry males out for revenge.
Nick Lachey. But I don't believe he's shot anybody. Yet.
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Old 27th February 2013, 02:32 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Which part amounts to lax control? If that lot was enforced in the USA there would be far better gun control than there is now.
The part where anyone over the age of 18 can buy semi-automatic rifles without a license.
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Old 27th February 2013, 02:33 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
You can take my Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator when you pry my cold, dead fingers....
Thank you for the best laugh I've had in days.
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Old 27th February 2013, 02:35 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller View Post
The part where anyone over the age of 18 can buy semi-automatic rifles without a license.
Which someones would you allow?
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Old 27th February 2013, 02:40 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
Which someones would you allow?
Basically the same the Swiss do. From Wiki:

Quote:
Everyone over the age of 18 who is not psychiatrically disqualified (such as having had a history of endangering his own life or the lives of others) or identified as posing security problems, and who has a clean criminal record (requires a Criminal Records Bureau check) can request such a permit.
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Old 27th February 2013, 02:53 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Yes, Darat, you got it. Almost 90% of all gun violence (anywhere in the world) is committed by males. Why is that? It would be useful in the pursuit of stopping gun violence if we address this FACT.
The biggest problem with the gun violence community is just how darned sexist it still is.
Until it opens up and encourages more women into armed robbery, carjacking and mall massacres, I, as a white male, refuse to shoot any more innocent people.

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Old 27th February 2013, 02:53 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller View Post
Basically the same the Swiss do. From Wiki:
You mean like the someones eligible in the US if the current laws were enforced?
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Old 27th February 2013, 02:58 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
You mean like the someones eligible in the US if the current laws were enforced?
Yes, but I would also want people to take a training class and keep their weapons in a safe when not in use.
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:05 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
On the contrary. As soon as someone invents a better weapon, guns will be trashed. In 2056 you really think even the most rabid NRA guy will be holding onto his feeble projectile weapons while the rest of us have phasers and sonic blasters and lightsabers? "Nice rifle, grandpa. Watch me shoot that satellite out of its orbit. Its orbit of Mars. You want me to set up a tin can for you?"
Naw, it'll be all quaint to get shot with actual bullets then. It'll be like when somebody gets killed by an arrow these days.

And everyone knows lightsabers are useless against anything that fires a projectile at faster than walking pace.
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:52 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Aoidoi View Post
Naw, it'll be all quaint to get shot with actual bullets then. It'll be like when somebody gets killed by an arrow these days.

And everyone knows lightsabers are useless against anything that fires a projectile at faster than walking pace.
My future weapon fires lightsabers as bullets. At the speed of light. Every tenth round is a robot hamster with diamond teeth.
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Old 28th February 2013, 03:36 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller View Post
The part where anyone over the age of 18 can buy semi-automatic rifles without a license.
You have not read the section properly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...nd#Buying_guns

You need a permit with background and psychiatric checks before you can buy off a dealer and if there is no permit held with a private sale there are stringent rules.

If the USA had the Swiss permit and sales system it would be a lot harder for criminals, nuts, angry people and youths to get guns.
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Old 28th February 2013, 04:04 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You have not read the section properly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...nd#Buying_guns

You need a permit with background and psychiatric checks before you can buy off a dealer and if there is no permit held with a private sale there are stringent rules.
No, you don't need a "psychiatric check" to get your permit, where does it say that? You need to not be disqualified from owning a firearm.

Quote:
If the USA had the Swiss permit and sales system it would be a lot harder for criminals, nuts, angry people and youths to get guns.
How is it harder for an angry 18 year old to buy a gun in Switzerland than in the US? If you have a clean record you'll get your permit.
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Old 28th February 2013, 04:55 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller View Post
No, you don't need a "psychiatric check" to get your permit, where does it say that? You need to not be disqualified from owning a firearm.
OK so not disqualified for psychiatric reasons.


Quote:
How is it harder for an angry 18 year old to buy a gun in Switzerland than in the US? If you have a clean record you'll get your permit.
That depends on what the background checks involve. There is an anger issue in Switzerland with is high proportion of domestic homicides and occasional mass shooting. Americans must be even angrier.
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Old 28th February 2013, 08:26 AM   #34
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All we need is a mandatory insurance requirement.

Insurance companies are great at finding reasons to disqualify people.
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Old 28th February 2013, 09:24 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller View Post
Basically the same the Swiss do. From Wiki:
Quote:
Everyone over the age of 18 who is not psychiatrically disqualified (such as having had a history of endangering his own life or the lives of others) or identified as posing security problems, and who has a clean criminal record (requires a Criminal Records Bureau check) can request such a permit.
Ok, done.

Brady bill 1994

Many states also have permits for purchasing handguns, see North Carolina. Not that a piece of paper changes the requirements which are the same between what was stated above and the requirements imposed on form 4473
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

Next?
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Old 28th February 2013, 11:45 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
Ok, done.

Brady bill 1994

Many states also have permits for purchasing handguns, see North Carolina. Not that a piece of paper changes the requirements which are the same between what was stated above and the requirements imposed on form 4473
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

Next?
Er, what is your point?
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Old 28th February 2013, 04:09 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
All we need is a mandatory insurance requirement.

Insurance companies are great at finding reasons to disqualify people.
Yeah, cause that will not violate the 2nd Amendment.....
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Old 28th February 2013, 04:12 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
Yeah, cause that will not violate the 2nd Amendment.....
Actually it wouldn't. Private companies can violate the 2nd amendment, and the first etc as much as they like, unless specifically forbidden by a different law..
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Old 28th February 2013, 05:59 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Actually it wouldn't. Private companies can violate the 2nd amendment, and the first etc as much as they like, unless specifically forbidden by a different law..
They're not the ones violating it, the goverment is by requiring insurance for the specific purpose of reducing gun ownership.
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Old 28th February 2013, 06:18 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
They're not the ones violating it, the goverment is by requiring insurance for the specific purpose of reducing gun ownership.
^^ This. This is absolutely correct. In the SCOTUS decision in McDonald vs City of Chicago, they stated that requiring something, (in McDonald's case) a permit, and then making that permit unattainable, is against the law.


I strongly suspect that requiring insurance, then allowing those companies to make their own rules for issuance, some which would be unattainable, would fall under the same decision.

But, either way, requiring insurance before someone can exercise a right, is absolutely wrong, no matter what right it is referring to.
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