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Nihilanth · 1st July 2004, 03:55 PM

All right, I know a lot of skeptics don't want to touch this stuff, but I think it's a problem that needs to be addressed.
I'm not sure if you guys keep up with the conspiracy theories as much as I do, but there's been a hey-day of dissent over the Nick Berg beheading video. I normally just watch from the sidelines during this kind of thing because nobody listens to you if you're rational, but recently they had a huge gathering at the college here decrying the Nick Berg video as a fake and that the US government apparently kidnapped the guy, dressed up in the latest Arab fashions, and chopped his head off. Now, myself, I find some things to be odd about it, especially the timing of the video, but it's not enough for me to jump to such strange conclusions. So I started looking around and found a pretty comprehensive list of questions people are asking. I didn't get through the whole thing, but the guy writing the article seems to either be mostly sane or at least on his meds, so I was wondering if we couldn't all try to answer some of these questions using our diverse range of knowledge. For instance, I'm a level 26 Death Ninja and I behead people every day. However, I don't watch TV and my modem connection sucks, so I haven't seen the video.
Anyway, the site is here: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/15/22827/0477
So if anyone wants to put in their two cents about how some things aren't weird at all...or, hell, if y'all want to believe that it's all part of the evil Darth Bush's plan to garner support for his war against the Republic, that's cool, too. I just wanted some kind of rational discourse on this.

Nihilanth · 1st July 2004, 04:22 PM

All right, I read through the web page, and here's what I can come up with. I admit, it's not much (actually, most of it's flimsy crap), but it's a start anyway.

Suspicious Circumstances and Timeline

I skipped this section because I have no idea why Nick Berg was in Iraq. I'm pretty sure only Nick Berg really knows why he was there. Oh, and the Reptoid/NWO/Illuminatis, but there's no point in mentioning THEM.
Well, except for question 4, "FreeRepublic website listed the Berg business as an "Enemy of the State"." What relevance does this have on the issue at hand? This doesn't really prove anything. Or do they want us to believe that the FBI checks conservative websites for new people to add onto their Most Wanted list since it's gotten all empty after the capture of Saddam?

"Berg is killed before torture photos released but video tape refers to photos?"

Again, I never saw the video, but from what I understand from what other people said, the photos aren't mentioned. It's the torture itself that's mentioned. I would think that, since these people are actually there at Abu-Ghraib, they would know of the torture from former prisoners or from rumors, far ahead of anything that would make it to the States. So it's conceivable that these people heard rumors or maybe first-hand accounts of what was going on and it angered them.

Number 13: Wag the dog timing

Agreed. Coincidence, however, does not prove a conspiracy.

16) No blood at decapitation

I haven't seen the video, but that was the first question I asked when I first heard of it. How much blood was there? If there truly isn't any, then all that could mean is that Berg was dead before the decapitation, which would make it easier on the captors.

18) Berg may have been dead just before beheading

Well, there you go. The point is made for me. I wonder how that proves a conspiracy....

21) Chair

Actually, my supervisor where I work is military and just got back from Iraq (and, actually, just left again yesterday). He said he saw those chairs being sold everywhere.

24) A quickly disappearing video source?

Why not? It's possible that the owners of the website either got spooked that the thing got picked up so fast, or realized that the video is now everywhere and that the website has fulfilled it's purpose. I mean, they probably shut it down so nobody could track it to the source.

25) Tape editing

This point actually supports the theory that Berg was dead prior to the decapitation. They could have killed him in the middle of one of the "time jumps" to make the whole "operation" easier.

31) Woman's scream, instead of Berg?

Jesus...you know, if I was about to get my head cut off, I don't think I sound like a wuss when I say I'd scream like a bitch.

34) "Terrorists" were fat

I actually can't think of anything to say to this one; I just thought it was funny.

41) Al-Zarqawi dead?

I'm pretty sure this is from a faulty source; ie rumors around the area that the man is dead. However, that itself is a rumor that I can't back up right now.

Well, that's all I got. Anyone smarter want to try?

Ladewig · 1st July 2004, 06:03 PM

A lot of the issues were addressed here:Berg thread

The idea that the CIA or military black ops folks are as incompetent as is portrayed at the website is just plain kooky.

We're supposed to believe that the planning session included: "Hey, we'll need a chair for this thing to work. Captain, run on over to Abu Ghraib and grab one of those white plastic chairs. And while you're there, get an orange jumpsuit. O.K. next agenda item. It seems that no one wants to cut the throat of a living U.S. civilian, so we'll have to, I dunno, shot him or poison him or something and then hold him up while we cut his throat. That means we'll have to dub in a scream, maybe we can download a sound file from the internet."

Nihilanth · 1st July 2004, 06:28 PM

Aw, dammit! It's already been posted. Christ, and it's a better thread than mine...well, okay, that settles that, then. Huh, didn't even know there was a current events board. How 'bout that?

Anyway, I agree with you there. The main thing that convinces me it's real is that there ARE so many things to nitpick. If the CIA was going to undertake something this drastic, they'd be damned sure to make it look 100% real. I don't care how many cases people might bring up about CIA incompetancy...something like kidnapping an American with the sole purpose of beheading him and framing someone else for it isn't something the CIA would take lightly. If they'd even consider it at all, and what kind of weird reasoning would lead to that twisted off-ramp of logic?

Hutch · 2nd July 2004, 09:01 AM

Nihilanth, just FYI, your sig line comes from a short poem by the American writer Stephen Crane (best known for "The Red Badge of Courage"). Thought about using it myself at one time.

IIRC, the poem goes:

A man said to the Universe:
"Sir, I exist"
"However", said the Universe,
That has not created in me a sense of responsibility

(You can probably find it by googling Stephen Crane poems

Nihilanth · 2nd July 2004, 11:33 AM

Right, okay. Stephen Crane. Thanks a lot, Hutch. Wonder where I got the idea it was Ambrose Bierce, then...

Hand Bent Spoon · 5th July 2004, 04:48 PM

You know, people like these nut cases really make me wonder if humanity isn't best wiped out with an asteroid after all.

1st July 2004, 03:55 PM	#1
Nihilanth Thinker Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 131	The conspiracy theory maelstrom... All right, I know a lot of skeptics don't want to touch this stuff, but I think it's a problem that needs to be addressed. I'm not sure if you guys keep up with the conspiracy theories as much as I do, but there's been a hey-day of dissent over the Nick Berg beheading video. I normally just watch from the sidelines during this kind of thing because nobody listens to you if you're rational, but recently they had a huge gathering at the college here decrying the Nick Berg video as a fake and that the US government apparently kidnapped the guy, dressed up in the latest Arab fashions, and chopped his head off. Now, myself, I find some things to be odd about it, especially the timing of the video, but it's not enough for me to jump to such strange conclusions. So I started looking around and found a pretty comprehensive list of questions people are asking. I didn't get through the whole thing, but the guy writing the article seems to either be mostly sane or at least on his meds, so I was wondering if we couldn't all try to answer some of these questions using our diverse range of knowledge. For instance, I'm a level 26 Death Ninja and I behead people every day. However, I don't watch TV and my modem connection sucks, so I haven't seen the video. Anyway, the site is here: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/15/22827/0477 So if anyone wants to put in their two cents about how some things aren't weird at all...or, hell, if y'all want to believe that it's all part of the evil Darth Bush's plan to garner support for his war against the Republic, that's cool, too. I just wanted some kind of rational discourse on this.
Nihilanth Thinker Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 131	__________________ I think perhaps the most important problem is that we are trying to understand the fundamental workings of the universe via a language devised for telling one another when the best fruit is. -- (Terry Pratchett, alt.fan.pratchett)

1st July 2004, 04:22 PM	#2
Nihilanth Thinker Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 131	All right, I read through the web page, and here's what I can come up with. I admit, it's not much (actually, most of it's flimsy crap), but it's a start anyway. Suspicious Circumstances and Timeline I skipped this section because I have no idea why Nick Berg was in Iraq. I'm pretty sure only Nick Berg really knows why he was there. Oh, and the Reptoid/NWO/Illuminatis, but there's no point in mentioning THEM. Well, except for question 4, "FreeRepublic website listed the Berg business as an "Enemy of the State"." What relevance does this have on the issue at hand? This doesn't really prove anything. Or do they want us to believe that the FBI checks conservative websites for new people to add onto their Most Wanted list since it's gotten all empty after the capture of Saddam? "Berg is killed before torture photos released but video tape refers to photos?" Again, I never saw the video, but from what I understand from what other people said, the photos aren't mentioned. It's the torture itself that's mentioned. I would think that, since these people are actually there at Abu-Ghraib, they would know of the torture from former prisoners or from rumors, far ahead of anything that would make it to the States. So it's conceivable that these people heard rumors or maybe first-hand accounts of what was going on and it angered them. Number 13: Wag the dog timing Agreed. Coincidence, however, does not prove a conspiracy. 16) No blood at decapitation I haven't seen the video, but that was the first question I asked when I first heard of it. How much blood was there? If there truly isn't any, then all that could mean is that Berg was dead before the decapitation, which would make it easier on the captors. 18) Berg may have been dead just before beheading Well, there you go. The point is made for me. I wonder how that proves a conspiracy.... 21) Chair Actually, my supervisor where I work is military and just got back from Iraq (and, actually, just left again yesterday). He said he saw those chairs being sold everywhere. 24) A quickly disappearing video source? Why not? It's possible that the owners of the website either got spooked that the thing got picked up so fast, or realized that the video is now everywhere and that the website has fulfilled it's purpose. I mean, they probably shut it down so nobody could track it to the source. 25) Tape editing This point actually supports the theory that Berg was dead prior to the decapitation. They could have killed him in the middle of one of the "time jumps" to make the whole "operation" easier. 31) Woman's scream, instead of Berg? Jesus...you know, if I was about to get my head cut off, I don't think I sound like a wuss when I say I'd scream like a bitch. 34) "Terrorists" were fat I actually can't think of anything to say to this one; I just thought it was funny. 41) Al-Zarqawi dead? I'm pretty sure this is from a faulty source; ie rumors around the area that the man is dead. However, that itself is a rumor that I can't back up right now. Well, that's all I got. Anyone smarter want to try?
Nihilanth Thinker Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 131	__________________ I think perhaps the most important problem is that we are trying to understand the fundamental workings of the universe via a language devised for telling one another when the best fruit is. -- (Terry Pratchett, alt.fan.pratchett)

1st July 2004, 06:03 PM	#3
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,931	A lot of the issues were addressed here:Berg thread The idea that the CIA or military black ops folks are as incompetent as is portrayed at the website is just plain kooky. We're supposed to believe that the planning session included: "Hey, we'll need a chair for this thing to work. Captain, run on over to Abu Ghraib and grab one of those white plastic chairs. And while you're there, get an orange jumpsuit. O.K. next agenda item. It seems that no one wants to cut the throat of a living U.S. civilian, so we'll have to, I dunno, shot him or poison him or something and then hold him up while we cut his throat. That means we'll have to dub in a scream, maybe we can download a sound file from the internet."
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

1st July 2004, 06:28 PM	#4
Nihilanth Thinker Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 131	Aw, dammit! It's already been posted. Christ, and it's a better thread than mine...well, okay, that settles that, then. Huh, didn't even know there was a current events board. How 'bout that? Anyway, I agree with you there. The main thing that convinces me it's real is that there ARE so many things to nitpick. If the CIA was going to undertake something this drastic, they'd be damned sure to make it look 100% real. I don't care how many cases people might bring up about CIA incompetancy...something like kidnapping an American with the sole purpose of beheading him and framing someone else for it isn't something the CIA would take lightly. If they'd even consider it at all, and what kind of weird reasoning would lead to that twisted off-ramp of logic?
Nihilanth Thinker Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 131	__________________ I think perhaps the most important problem is that we are trying to understand the fundamental workings of the universe via a language devised for telling one another when the best fruit is. -- (Terry Pratchett, alt.fan.pratchett)

2nd July 2004, 09:01 AM	#5
Hutch A broken man on a Halifax pier, the last of Barrett's Privateers Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: About 7 Miles from the Saturn 5B Posts: 6,560	Nihilanth, just FYI, your sig line comes from a short poem by the American writer Stephen Crane (best known for "The Red Badge of Courage"). Thought about using it myself at one time. IIRC, the poem goes: A man said to the Universe: "Sir, I exist" "However", said the Universe, That has not created in me a sense of responsibility (You can probably find it by googling Stephen Crane poems
	__________________ If sheer righteous fury could accomplish anything worthwhile, Wolverines would have inherited the Galaxy long ago." -Web DuHavel, David Weber's "Honorverse" Series

2nd July 2004, 11:33 AM	#6
Nihilanth Thinker Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 131	Right, okay. Stephen Crane. Thanks a lot, Hutch. Wonder where I got the idea it was Ambrose Bierce, then...
Nihilanth Thinker Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 131	__________________ I think perhaps the most important problem is that we are trying to understand the fundamental workings of the universe via a language devised for telling one another when the best fruit is. -- (Terry Pratchett, alt.fan.pratchett)

5th July 2004, 04:48 PM	#7
Hand Bent Spoon Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 378	You know, people like these nut cases really make me wonder if humanity isn't best wiped out with an asteroid after all.
Hand Bent Spoon Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 378