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subgenius · 5th July 2004, 11:12 PM

Conservatives pride themselves on resisting change, which is as it should be. But intelligent deference to tradition and stability can evolve into intellectual sloth and moral fanaticism, as when conservatives simply decline to look up from dogma because the effort to raise their heads and reconsider is too great. The laws aren't exactly indefensible, because practically nothing is, and the thunderers who tell us to stay the course can always find one man or woman who, having taken marijuana, moved on to severe mental disorder. But that argument, to quote myself, is on the order of saying that every rapist began by masturbating. General rules based on individual victims are unwise. And although there is a perfectly respectable case against using marijuana, the penalties imposed on those who reject that case, or who give way to weakness of resolution, are very difficult to defend. If all our laws were paradigmatic, imagine what we would do to anyone caught lighting a cigarette, or drinking a beer. Or — exulting in life in the paradigm — committing adultery. Send them all to Guantanamo?
.....
http://www.nationalreview.com/script...ey/buckley.asp

See you in two years.

TillEulenspiegel · 6th July 2004, 10:35 AM

William F .Buckley is to conservatism what Charles Percy and Everett Dirksen were . Not the cartoon abstractions like Newt Gingrich and Bob Barr who call themselves Conservative.

Pragmatists with an ideological flavor but ultimately individuals who can account for their well crafted viewpoints with reason and without rancor or demonization of their political opposites.

Mr. Buckley states what is obvious to all persons of reasoned mind, that testing one's assumptions doesn't mean lacking conviction but rather if an idea can withstand constant scrutiny , then all the more true it appears to be . B'sides he writes a damn fine fiction ( altho I DO hate that little suck in a breath tap teeth w/pen or finger affectation he uses as a stage prop).

tamiO · 6th July 2004, 10:55 AM

Sweet Home Alabama

Quote:

Most transgressors caught using marijuana aren't packed away to jail, but some are, and in Alabama, if you are convicted three times of marijuana possession, they'll lock you up for 15 years to life.

'ere.

Ladewig · 8th July 2004, 06:37 AM

I think one of the worst aspects of the extreme right is that they believe that things like this issue are never open to discussion. I think MJ laws should be relaxed but I'd settle for both sides holding a rational discussion about drug laws.

Rob Lister · 8th July 2004, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ladewig
I think one of the worst aspects of the extreme right is that they believe that things like this issue are never open to discussion.

I don't understand your assertion. Are you suggesting that 'the extreme right' is defined as not believing issues like this are open for discussion? If not, can you give me a human example?

Snide · 8th July 2004, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rob Lister

I don't understand your assertion. Are you suggesting that 'the extreme right' is defined as not believing issues like this are open for discussion? If not, can you give me a human example?

I can only speak for myself, but I think "not...open for discussion" isn't quite accurate. More like these issues are simply so self-evident to them, that anyone who disagrees is obviously an idiot, disillusioned, etc. Like GHW Bush indicating atheists were not citizens (or words to that effect....too lazy to look up the quote).

Not that he is an "extreme" rightist, but it was the first example that came to mind.

Skeptic · 8th July 2004, 06:49 PM

I can only speak for myself, but I think "not...open for discussion" isn't quite accurate. More like these issues are simply so self-evident to them, that anyone who disagrees is obviously an idiot, disillusioned, etc.

And, God know, we never have LEFT-wingers acting this way, do we? After all, if you are against gay marriage and abortion on demand, that means you're a homophobe women-beater, or just as bad as one.

Like GHW Bush indicating atheists were not citizens (or words to that effect....too lazy to look up the quote).

You mean like the quote from Kerry saying republicans are subhuman idiots (or words to that effect... too lazy to look up the quote).

Ladewig · 8th July 2004, 07:46 PM

After thinking hard about the statement, I realized that the problem is not exclusive to the extreme right, but it is more predominate at that end of the spectrum.

Examples of issues which cannot be discussed in the national political arena

1994: House Speaker Newt Gingrich suggests that debate be opened on the idea of orphanages as an alternative to letting drug-addicted single mothers raise children in dangerous neighborhoods. Critics compare him to a Nazi sending people to death camps.

1995: Surgeon General Jocelyn Elders suggests that it would be appropriate to promote masturbation in sex education classes as a means of preventing young people from engaging in riskier forms of sexual activity. She is forced to resign.

1996: Conservative commentator William Buckley calls the war on drugs a lost cause and invites discussion of the issue. Buckley is described as foolish and weak. The war escalates.

I would add prostitution to the list as well.

I describe the extreme right as being more likely to shut down discussion because they are the ones who more often cite moral clarity, moral certitude, and tradition as part of their arguments.

Ladewig · 8th July 2004, 10:06 PM

August 1987

Robert Sherman (reporter for American Atheist): What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?

GHW Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

Sherman: Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?

Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.

================

Quote:

Like GHW Bush indicating atheists were not citizens (or words to that effect....too lazy to look up the quote).

You mean like the quote from Kerry saying republicans are subhuman idiots (or words to that effect... too lazy to look up the quote).

I found the GHWB atheist quote. I couldn't find the JK idiot quote.

subgenius · 1st September 2006, 08:36 PM

bump

The Fool · 1st September 2006, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by subgenius

bump

WTF!!! is that you subbie??????

please say it is true

President Bush · 1st September 2006, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by subgenius

bump

Damnit. Now I went and dropped my ibogaine.

Mycroft · 1st September 2006, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by subgenius

bump

Wow, it's been a long time! Welcome back!

whitefork · 2nd September 2006, 01:48 PM

Greetings from Hazel Motes and all the rest of us.

LeFevre · 2nd September 2006, 04:30 PM

Make sure you read your membership agreement, and welcome back

demon · 2nd September 2006, 04:35 PM

Hi Subgenius. Glad you are out and about again!

WildCat · 2nd September 2006, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by demon

Hi Subgenius. Glad you are out and about again!

demon, this may be the only thing ever agree w/ you on!

Welcome back subby!

5th July 2004, 11:12 PM	#1
subgenius Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,788	Wm. F. Buckley, Once Again, On Marijuana Conservatives pride themselves on resisting change, which is as it should be. But intelligent deference to tradition and stability can evolve into intellectual sloth and moral fanaticism, as when conservatives simply decline to look up from dogma because the effort to raise their heads and reconsider is too great. The laws aren't exactly indefensible, because practically nothing is, and the thunderers who tell us to stay the course can always find one man or woman who, having taken marijuana, moved on to severe mental disorder. But that argument, to quote myself, is on the order of saying that every rapist began by masturbating. General rules based on individual victims are unwise. And although there is a perfectly respectable case against using marijuana, the penalties imposed on those who reject that case, or who give way to weakness of resolution, are very difficult to defend. If all our laws were paradigmatic, imagine what we would do to anyone caught lighting a cigarette, or drinking a beer. Or — exulting in life in the paradigm — committing adultery. Send them all to Guantanamo? ..... http://www.nationalreview.com/script...ey/buckley.asp See you in two years.
subgenius Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,788	__________________ "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any controlling private power."---Franklin D. Roosevelt Proud to be Liberal

6th July 2004, 10:35 AM	#2
TillEulenspiegel Master Poster Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 2,310	William F .Buckley is to conservatism what Charles Percy and Everett Dirksen were . Not the cartoon abstractions like Newt Gingrich and Bob Barr who call themselves Conservative. Pragmatists with an ideological flavor but ultimately individuals who can account for their well crafted viewpoints with reason and without rancor or demonization of their political opposites. Mr. Buckley states what is obvious to all persons of reasoned mind, that testing one's assumptions doesn't mean lacking conviction but rather if an idea can withstand constant scrutiny , then all the more true it appears to be . B'sides he writes a damn fine fiction ( altho I DO hate that little suck in a breath tap teeth w/pen or finger affectation he uses as a stage prop).
	__________________ "God does not play dice with the universe." Albert Einstein "Who is Einstein to tell God what to do?" Niels Bohr Remember, %97.3 of all accidents occur %100 of the time.

6th July 2004, 10:55 AM	#3
tamiO Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,287	Sweet Home Alabama Quote: Most transgressors caught using marijuana aren't packed away to jail, but some are, and in Alabama, if you are convicted three times of marijuana possession, they'll lock you up for 15 years to life. 'ere.
tamiO Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,287

8th July 2004, 06:37 AM	#4
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,936	I think one of the worst aspects of the extreme right is that they believe that things like this issue are never open to discussion. I think MJ laws should be relaxed but I'd settle for both sides holding a rational discussion about drug laws.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

8th July 2004, 07:46 PM	#8
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,936	After thinking hard about the statement, I realized that the problem is not exclusive to the extreme right, but it is more predominate at that end of the spectrum. Examples of issues which cannot be discussed in the national political arena 1994: House Speaker Newt Gingrich suggests that debate be opened on the idea of orphanages as an alternative to letting drug-addicted single mothers raise children in dangerous neighborhoods. Critics compare him to a Nazi sending people to death camps. 1995: Surgeon General Jocelyn Elders suggests that it would be appropriate to promote masturbation in sex education classes as a means of preventing young people from engaging in riskier forms of sexual activity. She is forced to resign. 1996: Conservative commentator William Buckley calls the war on drugs a lost cause and invites discussion of the issue. Buckley is described as foolish and weak. The war escalates. I would add prostitution to the list as well. I describe the extreme right as being more likely to shut down discussion because they are the ones who more often cite moral clarity, moral certitude, and tradition as part of their arguments.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

8th July 2004, 06:47 AM	#5
Rob Lister Suspended Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 8,523	Quote: Originally posted by Ladewig I think one of the worst aspects of the extreme right is that they believe that things like this issue are never open to discussion. I don't understand your assertion. Are you suggesting that 'the extreme right' is defined as not believing issues like this are open for discussion? If not, can you give me a human example?

8th July 2004, 10:43 AM	#6
Snide Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Twin Cities Posts: 3,187	Quote: Originally posted by Rob Lister I don't understand your assertion. Are you suggesting that 'the extreme right' is defined as not believing issues like this are open for discussion? If not, can you give me a human example? I can only speak for myself, but I think "not...open for discussion" isn't quite accurate. More like these issues are simply so self-evident to them, that anyone who disagrees is obviously an idiot, disillusioned, etc. Like GHW Bush indicating atheists were not citizens (or words to that effect....too lazy to look up the quote). Not that he is an "extreme" rightist, but it was the first example that came to mind.

8th July 2004, 06:49 PM	#7
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	I can only speak for myself, but I think "not...open for discussion" isn't quite accurate. More like these issues are simply so self-evident to them, that anyone who disagrees is obviously an idiot, disillusioned, etc. And, God know, we never have LEFT-wingers acting this way, do we? After all, if you are against gay marriage and abortion on demand, that means you're a homophobe women-beater, or just as bad as one. Like GHW Bush indicating atheists were not citizens (or words to that effect....too lazy to look up the quote). You mean like the quote from Kerry saying republicans are subhuman idiots (or words to that effect... too lazy to look up the quote).

8th July 2004, 10:06 PM	#9
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,936	August 1987 Robert Sherman (reporter for American Atheist): What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists? GHW Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me. Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists? Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God. Sherman: Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church? Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists. ================ Quote: Like GHW Bush indicating atheists were not citizens (or words to that effect....too lazy to look up the quote). You mean like the quote from Kerry saying republicans are subhuman idiots (or words to that effect... too lazy to look up the quote). I found the GHWB atheist quote. I couldn't find the JK idiot quote.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

1st September 2006, 08:36 PM	#10
subgenius Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,788	bump
subgenius Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,788	__________________ "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any controlling private power."---Franklin D. Roosevelt Proud to be Liberal

1st September 2006, 10:07 PM	#11
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by subgenius bump WTF!!! is that you subbie?????? please say it is true
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

1st September 2006, 10:59 PM	#12
President Bush Banned Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Islets of Langerhans Posts: 1,506	Originally Posted by subgenius bump Damnit. Now I went and dropped my ibogaine.

1st September 2006, 11:14 PM	#13
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,149	Originally Posted by subgenius bump Wow, it's been a long time! Welcome back!
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

2nd September 2006, 01:48 PM	#14
whitefork None of the above Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: aka kullervo Posts: 2,339	Greetings from Hazel Motes and all the rest of us.
	__________________ Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies - Nietzsche

2nd September 2006, 04:30 PM	#15
LeFevre Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: JREF knows and I drink kool-aid Posts: 1,719	Make sure you read your membership agreement, and welcome back
	__________________ U.S.L.S. (1997-2009) Ask me about Skinnematics! I won't participate, but I'll eat copporn, and watch. - TobiasTheCommie Taisetsu na mono protect my balls!

2nd September 2006, 04:35 PM	#16
demon Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,744	Hi Subgenius. Glad you are out and about again!
demon Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,744	__________________ "... You don`t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."

2nd September 2006, 04:46 PM	#17
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,457	Originally Posted by demon Hi Subgenius. Glad you are out and about again! demon, this may be the only thing ever agree w/ you on! Welcome back subby!