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Old 16th July 2004, 10:50 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by uruk

So it seems the only absolute is there is no absolutes...but that could be wrong too.
I couldn't agree with you less. But that's only because I mean it in the absolute sense.
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Old 16th July 2004, 10:57 AM   #42
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I couldn't agree with you less. But that's only because I mean it in the absolute sense.
Then we can absolutely agree to disagree.
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Old 16th July 2004, 11:18 AM   #43
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Originally posted by uruk

Then we can absolutely agree to disagree.
Absolutely!
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Old 16th July 2004, 01:32 PM   #44
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Originally posted by Iacchus
Can you escape from the fact that you exist? ... not without destroying yourself (or mind) that is. If you can't then reality must be absolute.

Certainly you can't escape while you're alive and aware in the moment that is.
Another nice dodge Iachuss, but the existance of perception does not equate absolute.

I am not sure you know what the word means.

For one I am a materialist so I already concede that material reality exists (or appears to exist), however what does not exist is me. There is a body, there are thoughts, there are feelings, there are sensations there are habits. But there is no me in any of them.

If you take a person's memory away then they have lost thier identity, there is no 'storage unit' of the 'soul' that holds thier identity. It is a fiction, an illusion of continuity placed upon a series of individual events.

They are all relative positions held by transitory particles of energy. They have no conception, they have cohesion, but no identitity.

I agree that there are sensation, but they are not absolute, they are relative and impermanent.
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Old 16th July 2004, 02:05 PM   #45
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Originally posted by Dancing David

Another nice dodge Iachuss, but the existance of perception does not equate absolute.
Oh, really? And what exactly tells you this? Your perception? By the way, did you know that eveything is absolute in the sense that it exists exactly the way it is? Reality is absolute man.
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Old 16th July 2004, 02:42 PM   #46
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Even this monkey and this dog know you're full of garbage:




That's all the proof I need.
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Old 16th July 2004, 02:44 PM   #47
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"It has become clear to me that Iacchus is unable to participate in rational debate."
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'Nuff said.
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Old 16th July 2004, 02:47 PM   #48
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Every okapi in the Congo agrees that Iacchus is a moron. What more evidence do we need?!?!


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Old 16th July 2004, 02:50 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Iacchus
Oh, really? And what exactly tells you this? Your perception? By the way, did you know that eveything is absolute in the sense that it exists exactly the way it is? Reality is absolute man.
By the way, did you know that if Iacchus types a sentence that starts with or uses within "By the way", "Did you know", "If", or an italicised word, it is most likely a claim he's adamant is true, yet totally unwilling to discuss apart from the other party simply agreeing with him?

What could that mean?
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Old 16th July 2004, 04:22 PM   #50
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Reality is absolute man.
Reality is absolute as in it is different depending on the subjective understanding of 'what is reality'.
What is absolutely real to one is not necessarily absolutely real to another.
Even God concepts differ remarkably depending upon personal preference (subjective reality).

What is reality here

is in one way objective (to any intelligent awareness which may be viewing it) and in another way subjective (to the intelligent awareness directly involved within it's reality.

Objectively, all the seasons, night and day, different moments of personal (subjective) reality are happening at the same moment, simultaneously - that is objective truth.

Subjective reality within this reality might insist upon having different times, days of the week, years - annual celebrations, but all of these things are subjective reality which are not reality in terms of the objective reality.

Some insist that in reality - it is winter, and others at the very same moment will insist that it is summer.

Objective reality shows the truth of the matter, that it is ALL of these things...indeed it IS winter and it IS summer (etc)
but not so with 'what time, day or year it is.'

Such things as 'o'clock' 'hour' 'day' 'week' month' 'year' are subjective, and only are seen as objective in relation to those who are sharing the individual subjective realities as a collective, and agree to have these measurements as a recognised part of 'truth' in their collective objective reality.

Viewing objectively from without, there would be (what?) sense or 'truth' in the need for knowing 'day' 'month' 'year' etc...?

Absolute reality may be found within personal subjective reality, and then discarded within shared subjective reality (agreed upon by the participants) and thus, this shared reality becomes the Absolute reality, which in turn would also needed to be discarded as shared reality views itself from without (as the pic link shows) -

The common thread of the whole 'viewing of reality' has to do with intelligent awareness.

It is not impossible for intelligent awareness within an individual to move from personal subjective reality to collective subjective reality...but it is difficult.

Same applies to collective subjective reality (which tends to see itself as being 'objective') - It is not impossible for intelligent awareness to move from collective subjective reality to universal objective reality...but it is difficult.

There are as many possible individual subjective realities as there are collective subjective realities....numbers don't count... (pun intended) the absolute reality is different from "reality is absolute"

The absolute reality is that intelligent awareness exists in the physical Universe.

Another absolute reality is that this Universe cannot be FULLY understood through individual OR collective subjectivity - through instruments of physical form.

However, the Absolute Reality of this universe can be seen as absolutely REAL...through individual form

The reality of what is happening here

may well be different for any intelligent awareness experiencing subjectively (collectively and individually) within it, than from say here

so the only absolutely objective reality (regarding this universal reality) must be if Intelligent Awareness could overview the entire Universe without actually experiencing any part of the whole subjectively...totally objective.

The only certainty I can see is that the common denominator of personal subjective/ collective subjective realities, is Intelligent Awareness. itself.
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Old 16th July 2004, 07:17 PM   #51
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Originally posted by Iacchus
Oh, really? And what exactly tells you this? Your perception? By the way, did you know that eveything is absolute in the sense that it exists exactly the way it is? Reality is absolute man.
Just a couple thoughts on the idea that reality is absolute:

1. The immaterialists sure don't think so.
2. On the microcosmic scale it is not absolute: Heisenberg Indeterminancy Principle.
3. There are no cultural absolutes to be found, each culture is a mish mash.

If an electron is a piece of energy that has the potential to exist in an area of space bounded by the speed of light and the HIP then can you say that an electron,
a. exists but is indeterminant in position and velocity vector
b. exists in some abstract sense with no physical referent.

I also refer you to this cool stuff call Bose-Einstien Condensate, when you coll down atomic matter it suddenly becomes one, in the sense that the atomic waveforms combine and can't be told apart. So where did that absolute matter go?
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Old 16th July 2004, 10:53 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Navigator

Reality is absolute as in it is different depending on the subjective understanding of 'what is reality'.
What is absolutely real to one is not necessarily absolutely real to another.
Even God concepts differ remarkably depending upon personal preference (subjective reality).
So what? That's like saying there's a difference between apples and oranges which, in fact there is. However, that doesn't deny that either exists in the absolute sense. In fact that's all subjectivity is, different variations (of the parts related to the whole) of the absolute reality which really does exist.
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Old 16th July 2004, 11:02 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dancing David

Just a couple thoughts on the idea that reality is absolute:

1. The immaterialists sure don't think so.
2. On the microcosmic scale it is not absolute: Heisenberg Indeterminancy Principle.
3. There are no cultural absolutes to be found, each culture is a mish mash.

If an electron is a piece of energy that has the potential to exist in an area of space bounded by the speed of light and the HIP then can you say that an electron,
a. exists but is indeterminant in position and velocity vector
b. exists in some abstract sense with no physical referent.

I also refer you to this cool stuff call Bose-Einstien Condensate, when you coll down atomic matter it suddenly becomes one, in the sense that the atomic waveforms combine and can't be told apart. So where did that absolute matter go?
However, can you still imagine yourself not being here, while doing what you do in front of your computer? Which is impossible, unless you're not conscious or dead.
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Old 16th July 2004, 11:10 PM   #54
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Originally posted by brian0918

"It has become clear to me that Iacchus is unable to participate in rational debate."
-- Horace the Wombat




'Nuff said.
But seriously, all I can say is you must have by-passed the original post.
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Old 16th July 2004, 11:13 PM   #55
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Originally posted by Piscivore

What could that mean?
That everybody has their own agenda?
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Old 17th July 2004, 03:01 AM   #56
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So what?

So what if you're a Maori? So what if you're a Jew?
So what if you are European? Or come from Timbuktu

So what if you're black - So what if you're white - or yellow or red I don't mind even if you're small and grey...
....With huge eyes in you're over-large head
So what?


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Old 17th July 2004, 03:05 AM   #57
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Originally posted by Navigator

So what?

So what if you're a Maori? So what if you're a Jew?
So what if you are European? Or come from Timbuktu

So what if you're black - So what if you're white - or yellow or red I don't mind even if you're small and grey...
....With huge eyes in you're over-large head
So what?
Looks rather humanoid if you ask me.
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Old 17th July 2004, 05:49 AM   #58
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Originally posted by Iacchus
However, can you still imagine yourself not being here, while doing what you do in front of your computer? Which is impossible, unless you're not conscious or dead.
Can you imagine that all your preconcieved notions might be false.

It is not absolute that I am in front of the computer, my waveform does occasionaly exist in other frames of reference.

You are dodging again.

Where is the absolute Iachuss?
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Old 17th July 2004, 05:57 AM   #59
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Originally posted by Dancing David

Can you imagine that all your preconcieved notions might be false.

It is not absolute that I am in front of the computer, my waveform does occasionaly exist in other frames of reference.

You are dodging again.

Where is the absolute Iachuss?
Even in our variance we are absolute. Why? Because reality is inclusive of all there is, right or wrong.
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Old 17th July 2004, 10:38 AM   #60
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Because reality is inclusive of all there is, right or wrong.
Exactly. And since reality is inclusive of all there is, all that can be must be real. That which is real can be detected, either directly through the senses, or inderectly through its interactions with known real objects/energies. Anything which does not meet these criteria are unreal, and therefore non-existent. This includes angels, faeries, God, demons, and honest politicians.
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Old 17th July 2004, 02:39 PM   #61
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Originally posted by Iacchus
Looks rather humanoid if you ask me.
Yes.
Which explains why they made Adam in their 'image' (humaniod)

<backatcha
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Old 17th July 2004, 10:47 PM   #62
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Originally posted by zaayrdragon

Exactly. And since reality is inclusive of all there is, all that can be must be real. That which is real can be detected, either directly through the senses, or inderectly through its interactions with known real objects/energies. Anything which does not meet these criteria are unreal, and therefore non-existent. This includes angels, faeries, God, demons, and honest politicians.
However, there must be a gezillion things which Science has yet to detect.
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Old 18th July 2004, 05:46 AM   #63
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Just as I'm sure there are a 'gezillion' things you or I have never seen - but they are real, and CAN be detected, sensed, etc.

Science is not 'Omniscience'... but we are aware enough of our world to know with a reasonable amount of certainty that faeries, unicorns, dragons, and the like are unreal, there being no place left for such critters to hide. As for God - I'd be thrilled if 'Science' discovered God; however, I honestly think that, since God affects the world by causing the merely improbable to happen, I don't think science will ever 'detect God'. God is Unreal; God cannot be detected. The upside of which - is God isn't out to get sinners; God could care less if you commit adultery or incest or covetious behavior. God can't touch you, not the way you think. Omniscient and impotent... that's the God of today.

Science didn't know the world wasn't flat when it started out - does that mean the world was flat until we discovered otherwise?

Nonsense.

There are things Science cannot detect yet, I'm sure - yet that doesn't mean that unreal things will suddenly start popping up. Only that the very distant, very hard-to-reach, and very small have yet to be examined closely.
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Old 18th July 2004, 03:52 PM   #64
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Science is not 'Omniscience'... but we are aware enough of our world to know with a reasonable amount of certainty that faeries, unicorns, dragons, and the like are unreal, there being no place left for such critters to hide. As for God - I'd be thrilled if 'Science' discovered God; however, I honestly think that, since God affects the world by causing the merely improbable to happen, I don't think science will ever 'detect God'. God is Unreal; God cannot be detected. The upside of which - is God isn't out to get sinners; God could care less if you commit adultery or incest or covetious behavior. God can't touch you, not the way you think. Omniscient and impotent... that's the God of today.
Rubbish!

And yes, you really do need to stop speaking out of both sides of your mouth here.
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