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Old 7th August 2013, 10:46 AM   #1
s_pepys
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Sexual misconduct allegations against Radford, Shermer, et al.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...happen-to-her/

regardless of what happened. imo, names shouldnt be bandied about online before the police have investigated.

any thoughts on the latest crises at CFI?
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Old 7th August 2013, 10:52 AM   #2
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CFI is (wisely) staying out of it http://www.centerforinquiry.net/page...ent_complaints
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Old 7th August 2013, 11:02 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
CFI is (wisely) staying out of it http://www.centerforinquiry.net/page...ent_complaints
Rebecca Watson isnt!

http://skepchick.org/2013/08/ben-rad...al-harassment/
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Old 7th August 2013, 11:07 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by s_pepys View Post
Skepchick traffic is off dramatically over the past year or so. She needs to get it back up there!!!
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Old 7th August 2013, 11:17 AM   #5
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Oh good- more public spats!
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Old 7th August 2013, 11:19 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Skepchick traffic is off dramatically over the past year or so. She needs to get it back up there!!!
worrying to be able to so easily make accusations and naming the accused for the world to see without any real investigation or anything. the Lord McAlpine stuff here (UK) is a good example i think.
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Old 7th August 2013, 11:28 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by s_pepys View Post
worrying to be able to so easily make accusations and naming the accused for the world to see without any real investigation or anything. the Lord McAlpine stuff here (UK) is a good example i think.
The Tumblr blog that she has linked to has now implicated a number of figures
including a well known US TV personality.
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Old 7th August 2013, 11:35 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
The Tumblr blog that she has linked to has now implicated a number of figures
including a well known US TV personality.
This from the blog is a skeptic jewel:
Quote:
Anonymous asked: to the people asking for evidence on these accusations: missing the point. Believe survivors.
So, no evidence then.

Could this approach have a more witch hunt like atmosphere? Think there won't be ladies who want to jump on the "me too" band wagon?
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Old 7th August 2013, 11:40 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
The Tumblr blog that she has linked to has now implicated a number of figures
including a well known US TV personality.
It also includes this quote attributed to "Anonymous":

"to the people asking for evidence on these accusations: missing the point. Believe survivors."

Evidence. Missing the point.
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Old 7th August 2013, 11:41 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
The Tumblr blog that she has linked to has now implicated a number of figures
including a well known US TV personality.
Wow. that is quite worrying indeed.

Quote:
"MORE WILL BE NAMED"
the first quote i saw read,

"
Quote:
to the people asking for evidence on these accusations: missing the point. Believe survivors."
I personally always want to trust and believe everyone but surely if a crime has been committed, evidence should be required imo.
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Old 7th August 2013, 11:51 AM   #11
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I'm torn. I'm happy PZ Meyers has put the spotlight on a new controversy to keep us occupied but I don't feel comfortable calling a man the c-word who deserves to get raped.
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Old 7th August 2013, 11:54 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by squealpiggy View Post
It also includes this quote attributed to "Anonymous":

"to the people asking for evidence on these accusations: missing the point. Believe survivors."

Evidence. Missing the point.


Clearly "The Crucible" is no longer required reading in schools. At least for SJWs.
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Old 7th August 2013, 12:00 PM   #13
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That tumblr blog is absolutely irresponsible, and that has nothing to do with whether or not anyone has been harassed.

Last edited by AdMan; 7th August 2013 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 7th August 2013, 12:05 PM   #14
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I linked to what Blake Smith had to say about Karen's blog post in the FC thread, but here it is again:

https://www.facebook.com/DoctorAtlan...01849491741769
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Old 7th August 2013, 12:50 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by AdMan View Post
I linked to what Blake Smith had to say about Karen's blog post in the FC thread, but here it is again:

https://www.facebook.com/DoctorAtlan...01849491741769
I'm glad someone more familiar with the situation has weighed in with an opinion on the truth of the claim. It helps me sort things out a bit.
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Old 7th August 2013, 01:10 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by ravdin View Post
Oh good- more public spats!
Yeah. Tiresome, isn't it?

At least these types of dramas demonstrate clearly that one can comfortably use the terms "big name skeptic" and "douche bag" interchangeably.

If others think you're a big name skeptic, chances are you're a douche bag.

If you think you're a big name skeptic, you're definitely a douche bag.
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Old 7th August 2013, 01:14 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by s_pepys View Post
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...happen-to-her/

regardless of what happened. imo, names shouldnt be bandied about online before the police have investigated.

any thoughts on the latest crises at CFI?
Ugh. Crises plural, yeah.

Unrelated CFI Canada crisis: [Ethan Clow: The Candle Is Out]

The fish rots from the head back, as they say.
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Old 7th August 2013, 01:28 PM   #18
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Wow! As a fan of Monster Talk, this upsets me. I have come to think of all three hosts as people that I admire and respect. The idea that something this corrosive was going on between two of them really upsets me.

I am glad that Karen had the strength to come forward. Unless women speak up, things won't change for her or other women.

While I don't want to believe that somebody I admire is capable of doing this, I really don't know any of the parties personally (I just feel like I do from listening to their podcast). As much as I admire Ben, and even bought his book at TAM last year after hearing him speak, I think that he should be punished appropriately if this is found to be true.

This news has really shaken me and I am in a 'Say it aint so, Joe' Frame of mind.
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Old 7th August 2013, 01:36 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This from the blog is a skeptic jewel:So, no evidence then.
Testimony from someone who has been on the receiving end of the behavior is evidence. It may not be sufficient evidence for others to take various actions in response, but certainly it is some evidence that the behavior occurred.
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Old 7th August 2013, 01:45 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by s_pepys View Post
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...happen-to-her/

regardless of what happened. imo, names shouldnt be bandied about online before the police have investigated.

any thoughts on the latest crises at CFI?
I disagree. I think there's lots of stuff that doesn't rise to the level of criminality, that should still absolutely be grounds for public discussion.

Do we really want to set the standard of, "If it's not criminally prosecutable, it's not harassment."? Or perhaps you're just saying that, "If it's not been investigated to the nth degree, and/or the results of that investigation haven't been made public, then we shouldn't comment or name names."

Well, in this case it appears that CFI has investigated the allegations fairly thoroughly - and they've decided that it's their policy to stay mum. Karen doesn't get a copy of the investigation report. I'm taking her word on this, because I have no reason not to, and CFI made a statement, and definitely didn't say that she was welcome to a copy of the report). So, seeing as how an investigation has happened, and the results are *not* made public, except by the victim, what are we to do?
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Old 7th August 2013, 01:48 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ejk View Post
Testimony from someone who has been on the receiving end of the behavior is evidence. It may not be sufficient evidence for others to take various actions in response, but certainly it is some evidence that the behavior occurred.
Not sure what your point is. Are you saying all accusers are equally truthful?

I'm not one to say all women are lying about these things, my guess is most are not. But despite the unfairness that could potentially occur, there is still a need for some corroborating evidence when a single accuser makes claims against another.

Now if you are just nitpicking some semantic thing, it's a waste of thread space. Of course a person's testimony is evidence.

My comment referred to the blog quote, nothing broader than that. The statement said all accusations welcome, and I took that as including accusations be they fake, lies or truthful.
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Old 7th August 2013, 01:52 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by ejk View Post
Testimony from someone who has been on the receiving end of the behavior is evidence. It may not be sufficient evidence for others to take various actions in response, but certainly it is some evidence
that the behavior occurred.
An allegation is evidence that a person has made an allegation.

A third party witness is different.
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Old 7th August 2013, 01:58 PM   #23
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My point is that people who are saying there is no evidence are implicitly treating the reports people who tell us they have been harassed/assaulted as not constituting evidence. You can call it a nitpicky semantic thing, I consider it a reasonable response to a comment saying there's "no evidence."
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Old 7th August 2013, 01:58 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by sowellfan View Post
I disagree. I think there's lots of stuff that doesn't rise to the level of criminality, that should still absolutely be grounds for public discussion.

Do we really want to set the standard of, "If it's not criminally prosecutable, it's not harassment."? Or perhaps you're just saying that, "If it's not been investigated to the nth degree, and/or the results of that investigation haven't been made public, then we shouldn't comment or name names."

Well, in this case it appears that CFI has investigated the allegations fairly thoroughly - and they've decided that it's their policy to stay mum. Karen doesn't get a copy of the investigation report. I'm taking her word on this, because I have no reason not to, and CFI made a statement, and definitely didn't say that she was welcome to a copy of the report). So, seeing as how an investigation has happened, and the results are *not* made public, except by the victim, what are we to do?
definately the thing that irks me is the naming of names for public shaming. its a bad road imho. and the above mentioned "lets name names" tumblr is downright dangerous. It is a serious accusation.

i agree they should of given her a copy of the report. although, I suspect if they had , PZ would of put it on his site by now along with the emails from DJ Groethe on the incident.
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Old 7th August 2013, 02:03 PM   #25
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Old 7th August 2013, 02:22 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by s_pepys View Post
definately the thing that irks me is the naming of names for public shaming. its a bad road imho. and the above mentioned "lets name names" tumblr is downright dangerous. It is a serious accusation.

i agree they should of given her a copy of the report. although, I suspect if they had , PZ would of put it on his site by now along with the emails from DJ Groethe on the incident.
Public "naming of names" is a treacherous road, I agree - but honestly I don't see what *good* alternatives there are. It'd be terrific if the major organizations would take the approach of, "We've investigated this allegation and found it to be legit, so here's what we found out." If they did that with Ben Radford, he'd still be free to clarify his side of things, to apologize to the community at large, etc.

Until I see the organizations behaving in a way that I consider to be a hell of a lot better, they're not getting my support or money. Though, to be fair, I wasn't donating before really.
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Old 7th August 2013, 02:28 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ejk View Post
My point is that people who are saying there is no evidence are implicitly treating the reports people who tell us they have been harassed/assaulted as not constituting evidence. You can call it a nitpicky semantic thing, I consider it a reasonable response to a comment saying there's "no evidence."
Well you misunderstood then, because I was commenting on the Tumblr call out for people to make accusations against others and their very specific quote, "... missing the point. Believe survivors."

I read that as saying accusers are always to be believed.

You've read questioning the premise to mean, accusers are never to be believed. That is not true, not even close.
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Old 7th August 2013, 02:29 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by s_pepys View Post
definately the thing that irks me is the naming of names for public shaming. its a bad road imho. and the above mentioned "lets name names" tumblr is downright dangerous. It is a serious accusation.

i agree they should of given her a copy of the report. although, I suspect if they had , PZ would of put it on his site by now along with the emails from DJ Groethe on the incident.
What's DJ got to do with it?
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Old 7th August 2013, 02:31 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What's DJ got to do with it?
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...ppy-tells-all/
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Old 7th August 2013, 02:40 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by s_pepys View Post
Ah. He's a massive *******.
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Old 7th August 2013, 03:38 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by s_pepys View Post
Wow, just wow!


This thread is headed to deep storage any minute now.
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Old 7th August 2013, 03:43 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by ProBonoShill View Post
This thread is headed to deep storage any minute now.
why?
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Old 7th August 2013, 03:45 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ProBonoShill View Post
Wow, just wow!


This thread is headed to deep storage any minute now.
Why would it? There's nothing in it that breaches the MA. Perhaps Mr. Grothe will stop in here himself; he is a member and has been known to post. I would be interested to hear his side of the story.
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Old 7th August 2013, 03:47 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Why would it? There's nothing in it that breaches the MA. Perhaps Mr. Grothe will stop in here himself; he is a member and has been known to post. I would be interested to hear his side of the story.

Or maybe he'll get a friend to write to PZ Myers for him.

And yes, it would be good to hear his side of what happened.
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Old 7th August 2013, 04:02 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Skepchick traffic is off dramatically over the past year or so. She needs to get it back up there!!!
Actually, seems not to be so; http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/skepchick.org
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Old 7th August 2013, 04:17 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by s_pepys View Post
definately the thing that irks me is the naming of names for public shaming. its a bad road imho. and the above mentioned "lets name names" tumblr is downright dangerous. It is a serious accusation.

i agree they should of given her a copy of the report. although, I suspect if they had , PZ would of put it on his site by now along with the emails from DJ Groethe on the incident.
Next you are going to say revenge porn is bad.
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Old 7th August 2013, 04:19 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Next you are going to say revenge porn is bad.
link?!?!
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Old 7th August 2013, 05:14 PM   #38
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I'm all for the Tumblr, because I honestly don't see any other way at this point. Organizations aren't removing speakers from events after reports, and backchannel warning was failing.
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Old 7th August 2013, 05:22 PM   #39
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Did Radford and Stollznow keep doing their MonsterTalk podcasts together until recently?
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Old 7th August 2013, 05:29 PM   #40
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Erased my post after reading the complaint. Sounds very bad.

Last edited by Caper; 7th August 2013 at 05:37 PM.
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