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23rd August 2013, 11:07 PM | #1 | |||
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Burning Painted Steel Beams, Making Iron-Rich Microspheres!
Burning Painted Steel Beams, Making Iron-Rich Microspheres! Here are some photographs and results from a little experiment I did last May. While Truthers claim that only Thermite can create iron-rich microspheres, the video above shows some doozies being created by burning primer-painted steel beams in an ordinary wood fire in a burn barrel. Here is the orange-primer-painted steel beam I obtained at the New Mexico Tech boneyard. We cut it in half after selection. I filled our burn-barrel with cedar wood, and prepared to light the fire. I used paper and a few squirts of barbecue lighter fluid (representing tens of thousands of gallons of jet fuel) to get the fire going. Once the fire was going well, I gently placed one of the painted beams into the fire. Here are the post-fire control and burned beams. These beams were far too large to be placed inside the scanning electron microscope, so I had to obtain samples by pressing an adhesive surface on the beams (very ineffective), or by scraping paint samples off the beams, choosing regions with paint only, and no ash residue (much more effective). After the samples were prepared for the Scanning Electron Microscope (SEM), we scoured the un-burned samples, looking for anything remotely resembling a sphere. We found lots of tiny white blobs, but nothing at all spheroidal. Here is sample unburned#2, from a typical location (in the 3rd region examined). Here is the EDX (Energy-dispersive X-ray) spectroscopy results for point 1 (one of the white blobs): It shows lots of lead and chromium, and is most likely lead chromate (PbCrO4). There is also quite a bit of carbon. An EDX spectrogram of one of the dark areas (Point 2) showed similar composition: Things got really interesting when we started looking over the burned samples. It wasn't long at all before we stumbled over this beautifully spherical droplet of iron-rich material: Here is the EDX of Point#1, right on the big sphere. This sample has a lot of iron! And here's the spectrogram of a point not on the sphere: This shows a lot of silicon, magnesium, and chromium, but not nearly as much iron as the sphere. We kept looking, and soon found another microsphere on a different region of the burned sample: Its EDX also showed that it was also very rich in iron (Fe), with a little oxygen: Now, on this page, Talboo and Zugam quote Neils Harrit:
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The Basile.org article shows micrographs and their spectra for Fig. 24 from the Harrit/Bentham paper on "Nanothermitic Incendiaries": "Spheres formed during ignition of commercial thermite, with corresponding typical XEDS spectrum": And also, Fig. 25: "Spheres formed during ignition of red/gray chip in DSC, with corresponding typical XEDS spectrum ..." : And finally, for Fig. 27 and 28: "Spheres extracted from WTC dust" and "XEDS spectrum from a sphere found in the WTC dust": The Basile.org article notes that
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But just look at their spectra, and at the spectra of the burn-barrel microspheres above. The "ordinary fire" produces microspheres with more iron than oxygen, while the "thermitic" samples in the Basile.org article all show comparable amounts of oxygen and iron, which leads to my conclusion:
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Discuss. Oh, by the way, there are more fun videos at NMSR's YouTube Channel. Why not subscribe today? |
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23rd August 2013, 11:17 PM | #2 |
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Dave I'm really grateful for your work on this. When I asked you to do something like this experiment, I really didn't know if we would find microspheres at all, or if there would be iron-rich spheres. Their presence after a regular fire with steel and paint primer knocks down a major contention of the 9/11 Truth thermite assertions. Wow! Neils Harrit wrote to, I think Oystein, and said something like, if we find iron-rich spheres after a regular fire with prosaic paint, then halleluliah, more data! Let's see now how the 9/11 Truth community responds to this. There's always room for improvement... like doing this with DSC and measuring the exothermicalness of thereaction etc. but I can;t see how anyone can deny what you DID do and the conclusion that prosaic paint on steel can indeed create iron-rich microspheres when burned. Great job!
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23rd August 2013, 11:23 PM | #3 |
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Ergo beedunked here. #FalseFlagCluelessAtPhysics. Skeptical Inquirer July/August 2011 issue on 9/11 Truth |
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23rd August 2013, 11:27 PM | #4 |
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Iron rich micro-spheres can be found in fire; why can't 911 truth do science. Will 911 truth followers start thinking for themselves.
I love science; great job. It is not news iron spheres can be products of fire. Cool seeing an experiment, and the lab work to show those who can't do reality based research. Thank you |
23rd August 2013, 11:39 PM | #5 |
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http://www.northwestjournal.ca/IX3945.htm
I'm not sure if I am going a bit off topic but this is something anyone can try at home. Thanks for your experiment Dave. |
24th August 2013, 12:04 AM | #6 |
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Very impressive, Dave! Well done again.
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24th August 2013, 12:14 AM | #7 |
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Great stuff
I'll predict they'll say you found too much iron in your spheres: "No true thermitic reaction would produce that much iron" |
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24th August 2013, 12:26 AM | #8 |
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Thanks again, Dave! A great work
I think that the second microsphere, sticked on the surface, could (basically) originate not from the burned paint itself, but e.g. from this steel barrel (?). But the first microsphere is "immersed" in the paint ash, so it should originate from the paint on steel beam. And, anyway, both microspheres were simply created at "low temperatures" of burning wood I hope that your results could convince some better oriented truthers, but "true nanothermite believers" like Talboo or Zugam cannot be convinced by anything. Anyway, you just proved experimentally what we have claimed for years: that such iron rich microspheres are by no means the proof of thermitic reaction |
24th August 2013, 12:49 AM | #9 |
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24th August 2013, 01:18 AM | #10 |
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24th August 2013, 02:31 AM | #11 |
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Nice work Dave
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24th August 2013, 04:32 AM | #12 |
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Dave: So paradoxically, EDX spectra of your microspheres are closer to the expected product of thermitic reaction (pure Fe) than the spectra of Bentham microspheres and the spectrum of microsphere created by burning of real thermite
This again proves how nonsensical/unsupported is the claim "it was thermite!" just after looking at some very few spectra of such microspheres... |
24th August 2013, 05:50 AM | #13 |
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Hi Dave,
congratulations, you did a pretty good job! Now some comments: 1. Do you know the composition of the paint? It is obvious that lead chromate was used as pigment, but what the other components of the paint? Most interesting would be the binder. 2. Some experimental details should be added:
3. Some suggestions for further experiments:
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24th August 2013, 12:20 PM | #14 |
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<Truther> Obviously you're part of the Elite, and They altered your data points! </Truther>
Seriously though, stellar work. I look forward to seeing more! |
24th August 2013, 12:56 PM | #15 |
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Says something about Truthers dedication to the Truth that they don't do the same thing themselves as a comparison to validate their claims.
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24th August 2013, 03:56 PM | #16 |
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24th August 2013, 10:15 PM | #17 |
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Well as any idiot can tell, those are thermite logs... |
24th August 2013, 11:15 PM | #18 |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLyYv...eature=youtube
It looks like truthers are commenting on yt. They seem to be saying there was some form of contamination with the paint or the barrel ? If this is the case, why would the paint or barrel be contaminated with thermite How much did they pay you to put thermite in the barrel Dave I thought Robrob was joking |
25th August 2013, 12:37 AM | #19 |
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25th August 2013, 01:20 AM | #20 |
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In his desperate attempt to discredit Dave's experiment Ziggi Zugam misses the decisive point: the microspheres were produced at temperatures well below the melting point of iron/steel. Something that was not possible according to earlier statements of the TM. 9/11 Truth debunked once more.
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25th August 2013, 02:03 AM | #21 |
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Well, Kawika may be right that the second, loosely attached microsphere could originate e.g. from the steel barrel and could be then transferred to the beam surface by "winds of fire". Hypothetically.
From this point of view Dave's experiment is not sufficiently "clean", but it is a quite a good simulation of real WTC fire. Africanus: I agree, optical microscopy can find more easily more of such microspheres |
25th August 2013, 02:15 AM | #22 |
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Niels Harrit: "I do not actually understand why they fire insulates steel structures. It just slows the heating of the steel by one hour. There must be money in it." |
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25th August 2013, 02:19 AM | #23 |
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25th August 2013, 02:35 AM | #24 |
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I know that they will move the goalpost on this matter as well.
I have debated one of Harrits friends, who himself has no knowledge of chemistry at all. After I showed him that these spheres can form without any thermite being burned, he asked me for the equation for the conversion of lead chromate to elemental iron. This question comes directly from Harrit! Apparently Harrit will only accept spheres being formed from the paint side of any chips and not the rust/steel it is attached to. If I am not mistaken, Harrit has never showed that his spheres ONLY come from the red layer of his chips?! And Harrit is clearly missing the point, that the forming of iron rich spheres from any source, disproves his idea that only thermite, can produce them. |
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Niels Harrit: "I do not actually understand why they fire insulates steel structures. It just slows the heating of the steel by one hour. There must be money in it." |
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25th August 2013, 05:12 AM | #25 |
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You are correct, until today there is no evidence that the iron-rich microspheres in the Bentham paper originate from the red layer of Harrit's chips. Harrit et al. published not a single photo of a post-DSC chip that shows the adherring gray layer. The presence of a red/brown material after DSC is a good hint that the opposite is true.
But that is not the only omission in Harrit's paper. He also did not clarify if the Fe:O ratio he gave are atomic or mass ratios, although that would be a crucial information. His ratios (from 2:1 up to 4:1) are in good accordance with the mass ratios of iron oxides, which would be 3.5 for FeO, 2.6 for Fe3O4 and 2.3 for Fe2O3. |
25th August 2013, 05:45 AM | #26 |
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Dr. Harrit has never claimed that thermitic reactions were the sole method of melting steel.
He does not believe that an ordinary wood fire in a steel barrel is going to heat primer paint to the point that iron oxide will melt into iron-rich microspheres. Dave's test is a mess just like is infamous steel wool hand waving. Take an old steel barrel (likely heavily contaminated with welding-created iron-rich microspheres), dump in a pile of wood fuel, burn off the primer paint from steel, extract steel from debris sludge at the bottom of the barrel, scrap off residue and examine. Two iron-rich microspheres are found and are immediately attributed to the burned primer paint. The possibility of contamination being the source of Dave's discovery of a couple of microspheres is never acknowledged or considered. Why only two? Why not a myriad of various microspheres, spheroids etc? How strange that in all the heat experiments previously reported on primer paints, iron-rich microspheres were not discovered. Who knew it was so easy. Dr. Harrit replied to me that Dave's test was rubbish and that when Dave publishes his work, Dr. Harrit will gladly respond. MM |
25th August 2013, 05:56 AM | #27 |
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Lol
How predictable |
25th August 2013, 06:24 AM | #28 |
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25th August 2013, 08:05 AM | #29 |
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25th August 2013, 08:53 AM | #30 |
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25th August 2013, 09:06 AM | #31 |
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LOL, take an old building (likely heavily contaminated with welding-created iron-rich microspheres), this can't get better.
Of course iron spheres are common in fires... experts, unlike Harrit who seems to be crazy comparing himself to Galileo, when Harrit spreads lies about 911, the fantasy of thermite.
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Next, the percent of iron, just iron in WTC is less than 2 percent, not 5 or 6 percent. Most the dust is from wallboard, insulation, and concrete, and other contents of the WTC. Plus the iron percent is not all iron spheres. 911 truth lies, and thermite is one of the dumbest claims. The steel wool was valid, as is burning stuff. You have trusted men who have gone off the deep end into woo woo land. Where is Jones? Gage may be the only sane 911 truth pusher, as he makes a living, traveling and spreading the word for donations to his old age fund. It does not matter where the iron sphere come from, they were found due to fire. How much steel was in the WTC? (likely heavily contaminated with welding-created iron-rich micro-spheres), lol It is common for iron sphere to arise from fires, and then a simple demonstration is ignore by you, and the rest of those who refuse to think for themselves in 911 truth, followers in a faith based fail movement which has no single integrated plot, no single theory, and what will you do with 77 and 93? Delusions of thermite, 12 years and no action by 911 truth. BTW, the product of thermite is iron, not iron oxide as seen the iron sphere Jones and Harriet have said were due to thermite. oops, the energy of the dust Jones and Harriet is not like thermite, it is like dust. Good luck with finding reality, as you and Harriet ignore reality and pick to remain in the fantasy world of thermite. How many iron spheres has Jones found in WTC dust? The RJ Lee study is after clean up, and not all the iron he found was iron spheres. Blind support for Jones and Harrit's thermite lie. Faith is cool, but not rational. From the RJ Lee report on dust sampled after clean up...
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All the BS you have about this demonstration, goes double for the Jones/Harrit fake paper event. With simple reading comprehension skills, it is evident Jones and Harrit did not find thermite in their study. Simple reading comprehension, don't need to be an engineer, or physicist, just a grade school graduate. Their is no proof the dust was from the WTC event... But there is proof iron spheres occur in fires, by RJ Lee, in studies, and in a simple demo now ignored by those fooled by liars on thermite, Jones/Harrit, and other "experts" in 911 truth. |
25th August 2013, 09:07 AM | #32 |
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I have no reason to doubt the veracity. I do find it and MM's response to be validation of how humans will often do whatever they feel is necessary to avoid changing their minds. Truth is apparently not the goal here, dragging out the argument and staving off defeat is. What a sad waste of everyone's time, to cling to some shred that you think validates your belief and be in denial as experiment after experiment proves your wrong. Putting off response until the results are published is only one way of avoiding the facts. Simplistic denials by calling it rubbish with no details as to why is another avoidance tactic.
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25th August 2013, 10:12 AM | #33 |
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Nice attempted dodge from the real issue, which is the formation of iron-rich microspheres without thermite. Here's what Harrit says about that. From http://stj911.org/blog/research-faqs/:
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25th August 2013, 10:51 AM | #34 |
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25th August 2013, 11:22 AM | #35 |
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25th August 2013, 11:44 AM | #36 |
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This is the funny bit (too funny?).
Precious little welding goes into the manufacture of a steel barrel (the lid and base are crimped on). Then it's painted. Then it gets used for years. Then a barrel like this sits, full of holes, in all weathers, for years more. "likely heavily contaminated with ..." Dear FSM |
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25th August 2013, 01:37 PM | #37 |
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Quote:
Hilarious that debunkers did an experiment in only a few days that truthers haven't done in over a decade. Once again, truthers have egg on their faces. |
25th August 2013, 01:49 PM | #38 |
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Very nicely done DaveThomas!
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25th August 2013, 02:28 PM | #39 |
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25th August 2013, 02:36 PM | #40 |
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As I said under Dave's YouTube post:
Less than 10 seconds into this video, Niels Harrit is quoted as saying that iron-rich microspheres "are observed after a thermite reaction... spheroids have never been observed unless there was a thermite reaction." This little experiment proves him wrong. It seems extremely highly likely that the spheres came from the beam after burning, not before. Even if there were contamination from the barrel, there was no thermite contamination for crying out loud. |
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