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Tags magnetic , platinum

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Old 31st July 2004, 11:00 AM   #1
INRM
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Is platinum magnetic?

Well, is it?

-INRM
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Old 31st July 2004, 11:24 AM   #2
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Re: Is platinum magnetic?

Quote:
Originally posted by INRM
Well, is it?

-INRM
All matter is magnetic.

http://www.geo.umn.edu/orgs/irm/hg2m/hg2m_b/hg2m_b.html
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Old 31st July 2004, 11:25 AM   #3
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Re: Is platinum magnetic?

Quote:
Originally posted by INRM
Well, is it?

-INRM
My poor google skills tells me no, but yes, because:

Quote:
Platinum, when found, is fairly impure. It is always associated with small amounts of other elements, such as gold, copper, nickel, and iron, and many times contains the rare heavy metals iridium, osmium, rhodium, and palladium. These impurities can lower its specific gravity to 14, when pure platinum is 21.4. Most platinum specimens contain traces of iron, which may cause it to be slightly attracted to magnetic fields.
If I read this correctly, platinum is not magnetic if it is pure/purified, although the words 'always associated with small amounts of' makes me wonder .....

http://www.minerals.net/mineral/elem...m/platinum.htm
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Old 1st August 2004, 04:58 AM   #4
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Re: Re: Is platinum magnetic?

Quote:
Originally posted by Rob Lister
All matter is magnetic.

http://www.geo.umn.edu/orgs/irm/hg2m/hg2m_b/hg2m_b.html
Yeah, Well, kind of a defintion issue...
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Old 1st August 2004, 05:28 AM   #5
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Re: Re: Re: Is platinum magnetic?

Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Yeah, Well, kind of a defintion issue...
In field geology we would not use magnetism as a test for the presence or absence of platinum. Only ferrous materials and cobalt. But then, we're talking a rough and ready science there!
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Old 1st August 2004, 05:51 AM   #6
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It depends on what you mean by "magnetic".

Platinum is paramagnetic with a relative susceptibility around 26E-5.

It's not ferromagnetic or diamagnetic, obviously.

Edited to correct error.
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Old 1st August 2004, 10:15 AM   #7
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Re: Re: Is platinum magnetic?

Quote:
Originally posted by Rob Lister
All matter is magnetic.

http://www.geo.umn.edu/orgs/irm/hg2m/hg2m_b/hg2m_b.html
Interesting for me.
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Old 1st August 2004, 10:25 AM   #8
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Magnetism is fascinating, as is gravitational attraction.

Go google a bit on Kepler and see what you find.
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Old 1st August 2004, 10:51 AM   #9
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I want to understand more how all matters can be magnetic?
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Old 1st August 2004, 11:00 AM   #10
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Well everything is magnetic, it's just a question of how much. Same with gravity ... it always applies.

In terms of magnetism Iron (and cobalt) are just a bit special.
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Old 1st August 2004, 12:41 PM   #11
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Re: Re: Re: Is platinum magnetic?

Okay, let's put it this way.

let's say I was carrying a piece of platinum. And I walked right up to an MRI... would the Platinum piece get sucked right out of my hand and go into the machine, f*cking it up all day?

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Old 1st August 2004, 12:58 PM   #12
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No
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Old 1st August 2004, 01:00 PM   #13
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Is platinum magnetic?

Quote:
Originally posted by INRM
Okay, let's put it this way.

let's say I was carrying a piece of platinum. And I walked right up to an MRI... would the Platinum piece get sucked right out of my hand and go into the machine, f*cking it up all day?

-INRM
I don't know how strong the magnetic fields are in or near an MRI but I suspect you would feel a very slight tugging if you got close enough. That's just a guess. Platinum is "slightly" magnetic but I'm also not sure how to qualify that. If I cared, I'd look it up.

www.google.com
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Old 1st August 2004, 01:07 PM   #14
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is platinum magnetic?

Quote:
Originally posted by Rob Lister
I don't know how strong the magnetic fields are in or near an MRI but I suspect you would feel a very slight tugging if you got close enough. That's just a guess. Platinum is "slightly" magnetic but I'm also not sure how to qualify that. If I cared, I'd look it up.

www.google.com
I think there'd be an attraction, but not enough to feel.

I also can't be bothered to look it up!
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Old 1st August 2004, 01:32 PM   #15
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Is platinum magnetic?

Quote:
Originally posted by INRM
Okay, let's put it this way.

let's say I was carrying a piece of platinum. And I walked right up to an MRI... would the Platinum piece get sucked right out of my hand and go into the machine, f*cking it up all day?

-INRM
I feel cheap for having dis'ed you in my initial reply to this question. I'm sure Benguin does as well.

Okay, here’s the deal.

Assuming the MRI is a 1.5 Tesla SIGNA machine (general electric) and assuming a one pound mass of platinum suspended on an eight inch string of number 12 nylon string from the top-front of the diagnostic plenum opening such that the mass hangs within one inch of the oval center, and assuming the machine is operating at maximum penetration, you should notice a slight pendulum-like motion of the mass which will eventually stabilize (I estimate 42.1 minutes) such that it will be 1.236 +/- .003 degrees off-plum in the direction of the plenum.

Yea, I made it up.
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Old 1st August 2004, 01:54 PM   #16
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Why do you ask?

And hey, is wood slightly magnetic too then? What about us humans?

I saw some stupid gold and copper colored "magnetic" bracelets for sale at my local Superstore. I wanted to fling them into the garbage. I was so mad they were sold in the pharmacy dept.!!!!

If magnets had any effect on our body that was in any way noticeable, you would explode in an MRI machine!!
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Old 1st August 2004, 01:56 PM   #17
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is platinum magnetic?

Quote:
Originally posted by Rob Lister
I feel cheap for having dis'ed you in my initial reply to this question. I'm sure Benguin does as well.

Okay, here’s the deal.

Assuming the MRI is a 1.5 Tesla SIGNA machine (general electric) and assuming a one pound mass of platinum suspended on an eight inch string of number 12 nylon string from the top-front of the diagnostic plenum opening such that the mass hangs within one inch of the oval center, and assuming the machine is operating at maximum penetration, you should notice a slight pendulum-like motion of the mass which will eventually stabilize (I estimate 42.1 minutes) such that it will be 1.236 +/- .003 degrees off-plum in the direction of the plenum.

Yea, I made it up.
Ahhh, but we need the force value to determine the answer to the question (or my proposition you wouldn't feel the attraction).
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Old 1st August 2004, 07:08 PM   #18
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Is platinum magnetic?

Quote:
Originally posted by INRM
Okay, let's put it this way.

let's say I was carrying a piece of platinum. And I walked right up to an MRI... would the Platinum piece get sucked right out of my hand and go into the machine, f*cking it up all day?

-INRM
When I had an MRI, they didn't make me take my platinum wedding ring off. Just as well, since at the time it would have been hard to get it over the knuckle (due to being somewhat overweight). I didn't notice any force being applied to the finger.

--Terry
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Old 1st August 2004, 07:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Why do you ask?

And hey, is wood slightly magnetic too then? What about us humans?
I'd have to say yes to this. Ever see the 'floating frog' experiment where they suspended a frog in a very large magnetic field? It worked on anything at all.
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Old 1st August 2004, 10:31 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Benguin
Well everything is magnetic, it's just a question of how much. Same with gravity ... it always applies.

In terms of magnetism Iron (and cobalt) are just a bit special.
Means: if all metalic & non metalic substances are magnetic to some extent? Whenther Iron(and cobalt) are just bit special or just bit more magnetic? How magnetic properties are/can be transffered to iron or other substances(all here)??
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Old 2nd August 2004, 01:33 AM   #21
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Maybe when use the word magnetic and magnetism it's not so helpful in this context, because we all get mental images of compasses and magnets picking things up.

Magnetism is not my strongest area, I'm better with electricity and gravity, but they all work in very similar ways. If you think of electricity, I'm sure you would remember being taught early on that there are 'conductors' and 'insulators', then when you learn at a more advanced level that is chucked out as you learn the conductivity of materials is something much more varied than that. Almost anything will conduct electricity, just some things do it incredibly badly.

I understand magnetic theory is pretty much the same.

The stuff at the bottom of this link explains nicely what is behind magnetic properties.

There is a good page here on calculating the magnetic susceptability of various materials.

In other words, in answer to Eos' question, everything has a magnetic susceptibility, it just is negligible for most things. So you can take those magnets out of your shoes now.
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Old 2nd August 2004, 02:47 AM   #22
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In other words: No, Kumar. Sorry, but you cannot assume that homeopathic drugs somehow stores something magnetically.

Hans
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Old 2nd August 2004, 03:12 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by MRC_Hans
In other words: No, Kumar. Sorry, but you cannot assume that homeopathic drugs somehow stores something magnetically.

Hans
Hello Mr.Hans,

If all substances are magnetic, we can think so. But I am not able to understand its logic as bit technical. I am just thinking that as magnetic effects is transfered into iron peice or just by rubbing--why it could not be possible in other substances if those are also somewhat magnetic. More harsh rubbing as in potentization process may mean something.
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Old 2nd August 2004, 03:40 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Hello Mr.Hans,

If all substances are magnetic, we can think so. But I am not able to understand its logic as bit technical. I am just thinking that as magnetic effects is transfered into iron peice or just by rubbing--why it could not be possible in other substances if those are also somewhat magnetic. More harsh rubbing as in potentization process may mean something.
Well you could speculate, but you are looking to find a theory to prove a phenomenon for which no evidence exists.

I can tell the difference between a magnetised bit of iron and an unmagnetised one. It might be possible, with equipment sensitive enough, to tell if a something fairly unsusceptible like wood has had prolonged exposure to a strong magnetic field, I don't know. It wouldn't be possible with a fluid.

There is no way to tell the difference between a bit of water and a succussed remedy because there is no difference. When you've found a way of telling the difference with any statistical reliability then we can talk about theories as to what's going on.

Did you forget the Hanneman quote I gave you already?
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Old 2nd August 2004, 04:00 AM   #25
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Benguin,

Thanks for information. You want to say that their may not be any measurable effects in most of other substances than iron( cobalt).

Btw, which substances can interfere MRI imaging?

Quote:
Did you forget the Hanneman quote I gave you already?
But who agrees here, with Dr. Hanneman's other quotes? If you all would had agreed, it would have saved lot of time & energy to me & others.
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Old 2nd August 2004, 04:11 AM   #26
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Sorry, I got details of banned items on MRI here. But I want to know that if MRI based images of body parts are due to the presence of iron in body parts or it takes imaging effeced by other body substances also?? I want to know the basis of target parts for taking their images?
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Old 2nd August 2004, 04:18 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Hello Mr.Hans,

If all substances are magnetic, we can think so. But I am not able to understand its logic as bit technical. I am just thinking that as magnetic effects is transfered into iron peice or just by rubbing--why it could not be possible in other substances if those are also somewhat magnetic. More harsh rubbing as in potentization process may mean something.
No, because that is one of the special things with iron and a few other metals: They can be magnetized, and retain a magnet field. Other substances (like water, alcohol, and lactose) cannot retain a magnet field.

There are several more holes in the thesis, but this is really enough to dismiss it.

Hans
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Old 2nd August 2004, 04:26 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Sorry, I got details of banned items on MRI here. But I want to know that if MRI based images of body parts are due to the presence of iron in body parts or it takes imaging effeced by other body substances also?? I want to know the basis of target parts for taking their images?
courtesy of howstuffworks.com

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/mri1.htm
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Old 2nd August 2004, 04:27 AM   #29
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Kumar thinks that MRI works because there is iron in all the tissues.



Rolfe.
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Old 2nd August 2004, 05:01 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Don
courtesy of howstuffworks.com

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/mri1.htm
Very interesting article, thank you! Apart from explaining how MRI scans work in a very understandable way, it indirectly delivers another ground shot to Kumar's newest thesis: Since you can place a human in a 2 tesla magnet field without appreciable side effects, it is evident that in the unlikely event that some kind of magnetic effect exists in hom. remedies, there is not a snowball's chance in heII that some infinitesimal effect could have any influence on the body.

It is also a bit of a slap in the face of other magnet therapies.

Hans
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Old 2nd August 2004, 05:36 AM   #31
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Originally posted by MRC_Hans
No, because that is one of the special things with iron and a few other metals: They can be magnetized, and retain a magnet field. Other substances (like water, alcohol, and lactose) cannot retain a magnet field.

There are several more holes in the thesis, but this is really enough to dismiss it.

Hans
Well aside from the material issues, I can't see how it is possible for a magnetic field to be created in a fluid, I'm not sure what you'd get if you could create a fluid of pulverised magnetic iron, but I'd be surprised if it would be anything.

Can I just point out, in case I confused anyone with talking about magnetic properties of all materials, that magnet therapy is utter steaming gonads that makes me laugh like a hyena.

Kummy-wummy ... the molecules in a fluid are moving about constantly, even in an apparently static fluid. Magnetic alignment can only occur for a transient moment before it will disappear through random rearrangment of the molecules in the fluid.

In any case, any effect as remote and weak as would occur through succussing two non-susceptible materials (water, duck's liver) is likely to be overridden by the earth's magnetic fields.

There is nothing latent to be seen ... here, an experiment for you;
1. Take two pieces of iron
2. magnetise one
3. Melt them both
4. Allow them both to solidify
5. Find a way to tell which is which by analysing their different magnetic properties.
6. Phone Randi up and collect your million.

Try not to burn yourself, or set fire to anything. I'd feel guilty.
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Old 2nd August 2004, 05:49 AM   #32
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I remember hearing a risk like if you got metal bits in your eyes or something, and went into an MRI, the magnet could move the metal and cut your nerves and blind you. They do an X-ray of your eye.

Does this X-ray include your whole head, or just your eyes?

'Cause I was exposed to a whole lot of dust, some got into my ears even. What would happen then?

-INRM
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Old 2nd August 2004, 06:05 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by INRM
I remember hearing a risk like if you got metal bits in your eyes or something, and went into an MRI, the magnet could move the metal and cut your nerves and blind you. They do an X-ray of your eye.

Does this X-ray include your whole head, or just your eyes?

'Cause I was exposed to a whole lot of dust, some got into my ears even. What would happen then?

-INRM
It's if you're likely to have been exposed to airborne iron filings and such like. The medline link Kumar gave covers it well.
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Old 2nd August 2004, 06:32 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Very interesting article, thank you! Apart from explaining how MRI scans work in a very understandable way, it indirectly delivers another ground shot to Kumar's newest thesis: Since you can place a human in a 2 tesla magnet field without appreciable side effects, it is evident that in the unlikely event that some kind of magnetic effect exists in hom. remedies, there is not a snowball's chance in heII that some infinitesimal effect could have any influence on the body.

It is also a bit of a slap in the face of other magnet therapies.

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Surely, the weaker the field, the stronger the effect
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Old 2nd August 2004, 07:37 AM   #35
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'Cause I was exposed to a whole lot of dust, some got into my ears even. What would happen then?
Probably get a massive aneurism, your head would explode, and somebody would have to hose out the MRI machine.
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Old 2nd August 2004, 08:31 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Benguin
Magnetism is not my strongest area, I'm better with electricity and gravity, but they all work in very similar ways.
At the risk of being highly pedantic, as I understand it electricity and magnetism work in the same way, gravity works differently...
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Old 2nd August 2004, 08:36 AM   #37
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I wear my platinum wedding ring into the MRI scanner room every day and I havent noticed any force being pulled on it. I dont know how pure the ring is, but if theres any impurities in it, they are not of sufficient magnitude to produce a noticeable force in a standard 1.5T field.

Welders and other people who work with metal cutting can accumulate very small particles of iron or other ferromagnetic metals into their eyes. If put into an MRI machine, they may be able to feel heat or pain in their eyes, so of course you are supposed to exclude anybody who fits this profile from getting a scan.

Some older tattoos used iron in the mettalic inks which could cause skin burns. However, most of the tattoos of the last 20 years or so use iron-free inks, so if its a recent tattoo the chances are greater of having no complications. We use a voice monitor to make sure that there is no local RF heating for people with tattoos, and if there is, we immediately cancel the scan. We've never had any serious burns with tattooed patients, just some minor pain that subsided immediately after leaving the scanner room.

Kumar,

MRI has NOTHING to do with imaging iron. Conventional MR scanning is based on hydrogen, not iron. MR spectroscopy uses other species such as sodium for example, but iron is not one of them.
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Old 2nd August 2004, 09:17 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Don
courtesy of howstuffworks.com

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/mri1.htm
Don, Interesting site in easy language thanks. It appears by understanding this site that when this much magnetic effect can not effect then other possibily can not be possible. But, this is the only mystry of homeopathy & TRS alike how a needle can effect when a sword can not effect. We may continue accordingly.
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Old 2nd August 2004, 09:26 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Don, Interesting site in easy language thanks. It appears by understanding this site that when this much magnetic effect can not effect then other possibily can not be possible. But, this is the only mystry of homeopathy & TRS alike how a needle can effect when a sword can not effect. We may continue accordingly.
The above post should win some kind of award somewhere.

No, not the language award.

Possibly, the anti-language award.
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Old 2nd August 2004, 09:30 AM   #40
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But, this is the only mystry of homeopathy & TRS alike how a needle can effect when a sword can not effect. We may continue accordingly.
No, we may continue accordingly when we have some evidence that homoeopathy and TRS do effect.

Oh, that was "mass existing belief", not to be denied.

Sorry, not going back into that revolving door again thank you.

Rolfe.
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